It’s enough to break one’s heart to witness children, all but orphaned save for the antics of an abusive father, so desperate for any sign of genuine paternal affection that they will celebrate even secondhand news that their papa allegedly shares some of their greatest concerns, and this in spite of numerous bitter experiences that indicate the exact opposite with stunning clarity.
This, my friends, describes rather well the reaction of so many tradition-loving Catholics (a redundancy, to be sure) to the message recently sent by Cardinal Robert Sarah, Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments, to the Sacra Liturgia Conference 2015.
The Catholic blogosphere went all abuzz when it was reported that Cardinal Sarah’s message read in part:
When the Holy Father, Pope Francis, asked me to accept the ministry of Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments, I asked: ‘Your Holiness, how do you want me to exercise this ministry? What do you want me to do as Prefect of this Congregation?’ The Holy Father’s reply was clear. ‘I want you to continue to implement the liturgical reform of the Second Vatican Council,’ he said, ‘and I want you to continue the good work in the liturgy begun by Pope Benedict XVI.’
Forgive me for raining on the parade here, folks, but I see nothing especially compelling in these words.
While many traditionalists (aka Catholics) seem to be assuming that Pope Francis was referring to Summorum Pontificum, it’s anyone’s guess as to what he considers “the good work in the liturgy begun by Pope Benedict XVI.”
For all we know that’s a reference to the re-translation of the Roman Missal for the still-deficient Novus Ordo, or the so-called “Benedictine Arrangement;” that lipstick-on-a-pig job that includes the placement of six candles on the big table (otherwise known as an altar) along with a crucifix, allowing for the priest to pretend that he is facing the Lord even as he plays host to the people.
God only knows what Pope Francis really had in mind, but one thing all of us know with a high degree of certainty is precisely how he feels about Summorum Pontificum and the Traditional Latin Mass.
In his first of many blockbuster interviews (the one with Fr. Antonio Spadaro, S.J., and reprinted in America Magazine in September 2013), Pope Francis said in reference to Summorum Pontificum:
Then there are particular issues, like the liturgy according to the Vetus Ordo. I think the decision of Pope Benedict was prudent and motivated by the desire to help people who have this sensitivity. What is worrying, though, is the risk of the ideologization of the Vetus Ordo, its exploitation.”
For Pope Francis, you see, Summorum Pontificum wasn’t an act of justice that clarified the fact that the Traditional Mass had never been abrogated; affirming that the Mass of Ages remains sacred and venerable for all generations.
Rather, for him, it was simply a prudent way of dealing with the sensitivities of ideologues, and truly little more than an act of “patience and kindness to people who are addicted to a certain fashion.”
If nothing else, the injustices heaped upon the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate, wherein their priests are “required” to celebrate the Novus Ordo while making it necessary for them to obtain “explicit authorization” to celebrate the ancient rite, plainly reveals the degree to which Pope Francis considers the binding force of Summorum Pontificum to be effectively nil.
How soon we forget.
As for Cardinal Sarah himself, this man is no liturgical knight in shining armor. He’s really more akin to an officer of the revolution; a man of the Council through and through.
I addressed Cardinal Sarah’s lack of traditional credibility back in March; the last time a good number of my tradition-loving friends went giddy over the man.
In the present case, a careful reading of his message to the Sacra Liturgia Conference will suffice.
Firstly, take note of the following:
I ask you to be wise, like the householder in St Matthew’s Gospel, who knows when to bring out of his treasure things both new and old (cf. Mtt: 13: 52), so that the Sacred Liturgy as it is celebrated and lived today may lose nothing of the estimable riches of the Church’s liturgical tradition, whilst always being open to legitimate development (cf. Sacrosanctum Concilium, 23).
Please tell me precisely what the treasures of the Novus Ordo Missae are?
Let me guess…
The so-called “Prayer of the Faithful;” the new cycle of readings designed to compete with the protestant Bible services, or maybe the endless parade of females in the sanctuary?
According to the disoriented men in Rome today, of which Cardinal Sarah is a card carrying member (in spite of any style points he may deserve for occasionally celebrating the Mass of Ages), the new rite, concocted by a bunch of experts sitting around a conference table behind closed doors (to say nothing of the valuable input of protestants), is an example of “legitimate development.”
More noteworthy still is the way in which Cardinal Sarah sets about defining the sacred liturgy in his message, as missing therein is any mention whatsoever of the true nature of Holy Mass; namely, the true and propitiatory Sacrifice of Christ wherein He is immolated in an unbloody manner, and offered to the Father as the one and same sacred Victim offered on the Cross, unto the forgiveness of sin, for the benefit of both the living and the dead.
Consider the words of Cardinal Sarah:
We must do everything we can to put the sacred liturgy back at the very heart of the relationship between God and man, recognizing the primacy of Almighty God in this privileged and unique forum in which we, individually and ecclesially, encounter God at work in our world…
The Catholic liturgy … is the worship of Almighty God, the place where mankind encounters God alive and at work in His Church today.
Is the liturgy a unique encounter with God?
Certainly, but let’s be perfectly clear; when the propitiatory, sacrificial nature of Holy Mass goes unmentioned, one is invited to imagine, as the protestants do, that the worshiping community in some way facilitates that encounter as “two or more are gathered in the Lord’s name.”
If you think I’m simply splitting hairs here, consider the following small sampling of quotes derived from a simple internet search for the way in which the heretical communities describe their own worship services:
“Worship provides an opportunity to encounter God in all his fullness firsthand.” – One Mission Society, a partnership of more than 180 protestant organizations and denominations
“Join us on Sundays as we encounter God in worship together.” – Seacoast Community Church, member Evangelical Free Church of America
“Church services are an opportunity to gather together and encounter God.” – Encountering God Together by David G. Peterson, Author and ordained minister of the Anglican Church of Australia
“Worship is an encounter with God, who saves us through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.” – Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
“At Jesus Culture we are adamant about a generation encountering God’s love in worship.” – Pastor Dean Deguara of Jesus Culture, a global protestant movement
Not one of the heretic organizations cited above would find Cardinal Sarah’s description of Holy Mass in the least bit objectionable.
No surprise here, I suppose, given the fact that this, after all, was the supreme goal of the Council of which Cardinal Sarah said in his message to Sacra Liturgia:
I ask you to continue to work towards achieving the liturgical aims of the Second Vatican Council…
At this, I trust the point has been made:
Pope Francis is in no way a supporter of Summorum Pontificum; he deplores the Traditional Mass and those who love it, and the man that he appointed Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments, Cardinal Sarah, is not going to be our ally.
Yes, wake up calls can be a bitch, I know… but we’re far better off dwelling in a harsh reality than resting in a hopeful fantasy.
Thats why I am no fan of him or Cardinal Burke or any of them really. Until they completely repudiate the Novus Ordo in all of its forms they remain enemies of God. The Novus Ordo is an outright and purposeful attack against the Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Supporting SP, a blasphemous document, or saying an occasional TLM does not help them in the slightest. It makes it worse.
I believe what Bergoglio means by, “…I want you to continue the good work in the liturgy begun by Pope Benedict XVI,” is simply that any “reform” of the liturgy is not ended. Period. So we’ll probably see the “reform of the reform of the reform” coming soon.
The NO liturgy is only going to get worse. I must be rejected outright.
I agree with Mr. Casimir, the NO liturgy is an attack on the Divinity of Christ, and if you dig deeper into the motivation of any of the modernist nonsense, you will find, at the root, a denial of Christ’s Divinity.
I agree completely with Casimir and Madison! According to Cardinal Maradiaga, the only mistake that the Modernists made was to leave the “Old Spirit” intact when the new “reforms” were being implemented, causing a kind of schizophrenia in the Church (and in a lot of faithful Catholics, no doubt).
Now with the Year of Mercy, they want to rectify that by killing off the “Old Spirit” ,which is Tradition, entirely, once and for all!
I too thought there was something stinky about Cardinal Sarah’s words. Louie, thanks for clarifying this so well.
All that blather about ‘encountering’ God gives off a really bad odour too – fishy – and certainly not Catholic. I’ve been looking into ‘Centering Prayer’ recently because a friend thinks going to a ‘workshop’ to learn contemplation through this method is a great idea. You will find lots of that kind of language in Father Thomas Keating’s dirty little program.
Looking deeeeeeeeeppppppp inside – where you will find (encounter) god – how handy! no long years of struggle! you can meditate, nay contemplate, the god within – no fuss, no muss! Hard to think of these deluded folks ’emptying’ their minds, when they are empty already.
Laughable to think many regard Cardinal Sarah as the great saviour of tradition!
I agree completely with Joshua Luis Casimir and John Madison and peraspera. 🙂
Putting any of our modernist bishops in charge of “divine worship” is tantamount to putting Jack Kevorkian in charge of the geriatric unit of a hospital. It can come to no good because their belief in the Real Presence ended with Vatican II….and that includes Bergoglio!
You nailed it , Louie. The pope is in charge and anyone who even hints at tradition won’t even be given the time of day, much less an important position. There are no real traditionalists left at the Vatican and there haven’t been for decades. There are some clever imposters but they all kowtow to the Novus Ordo god. Only Our Lady can help us now.
Looking at the comments, we wonder if it has occurred to anyone that further altering the N.O. is not their only tinkering option?
Though it’s hard to imagine them taking the hatchet to the TLM itself , we remember how impossible it all seemed when we first had a priest face us, saying Mass in English, and again years later when Churches started “remodeling” by removing kneelers and putting in padded seating; and again when we’d hear of abuses -all the way up till last year when we caught our first glimpse of the “Fr. Bergoglio-approved after-Mass entertainment of a couple Tango ing- in front of the Altar while he and others sat smiling approvingly behind it.
Nothing is off limits or impossible with these people. We suggest everyone brace themselves. Until the Consecration is done, our motto is: “hope and pray for the best, but expect the worst.”
As always, Louie, spot on!
“patience and kindness to people who are addicted to a certain fashion.”
When Masses were mellow
Every Priest, a real fellow
No need to remember when
‘Cause ev’ry thing old is new again.
Daily, the Sacrifice of the Mass
What-a-ya know, it didn’t pass
We still pray now like they did then
Ev’ry thing old is new again.
Get out your rosary, your black and white veils
Let’s go backwards as the modern mess fails
And the Latin words you thought were long dead
You’ll find in your missal, English black, Latin red.
Don’t throw the past away
It’s your foundation as the new fashions sway
The True Faith’s intended, intended for men
When ev’ry thing old is new again.
So get your rosary, your black and white veils
Put it in backward when forward fails
Leave the new fashion designers alone
Be the Faith’s fashionista on your own.
And don’t throw the past away
Absolute Truth will forever stay
“Behold! I make all things new.” so then…
Ev’ry thing old is new again!
Related, see: http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2013-0808-tofari-ordinary-form.htm
Hey! Keep your hands off our padded benches! We were given a Church to house our FSSP parish and how blessed we are: the seats are padded!!!! And nice soft kneelers too! And air conditioning! I’m teasing, of course – but we sure appreciate our priceless Traditional Catholic Mass – and our comfort too!!
ROFL !! 🙂 🙂 Thanks for comic relief!
Good article – and right on the money. I agree that we live in a fool’s paradise if we think it will be hands off the TLM. Get ready for the days when we’ll have to head to the basement clutching our Lasance Missals for a family read/pray of the Holy Mass.
I thought all would be well with Benedict XVI’s loosening up of the Holy Mass but the more I read I agree that he simply wanted a typical modernist synthesis of the new horror with the Holy Mass of the Ages.
Mr. Verrecchio, you are sacred music to our ears.
“Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: ‘Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry.’ We too have forbidden this practice in the same words….”
–Pope Benedict XIV, Encyclical Allatae Sunt, July 26, 1755
The God who is worshipped at a Novus Ordo rite Mass, is the same one worshipped at a TLM. He deserves our utmost reverence. Please don’t refer to him using a deliberately small g. The modernists in the Vatican kowtow to the devil, as do all heretics.
…And Mundy has a nice comment on what to think about while in the basement… https://mundabor.wordpress.com/2015/06/03/patience-penance-and-prayer/ … And while awaiting the Consecration…
“What remains to us of ancient manners and discipline? Alas! their traces are so much effaced, that they are not even to be recognized, where it is most desirable they should be practised. What shall we say of the men of our times? The true reason why our manners are corrupted, is because our men are degenerated. A strange predicament! in which we are impleaded in the court of conscience, and are obliged to exculpate ourselves as well as we can from the charge of being accomplices in those political abuses, which have left us little more than the phantom of our glorious commonwealth, the vain name and shadow of a blessing, whose reality we have long since lost.”
-Cicero, Republic, Bk. V
I share your view, Barbara. I believe that BXVI wanted a hybrid Mass.
If I recall correctly, in true Hegelian fashion, Papa Ratzinger’s hope was that “the two forms would enrich each other.” The only way to end the Vetus Ordo is to absorb it in an endless combination of possible compromises and syncretizations. Summorum Pontificum showed us what was true all along: the Church can’t just “delete” a form of the liturgy – certainly not THIS one. So the other way to eliminate it is to invite experimentation. For those of us who have researched this, you will note that Novus Ordo was the fruit of 7 years of ad experimentum from the time Sacrosanctum concilium was signed by Paul VI until his Bugninification of Catholic worship was completed in April of 1969. Oh, isn’t evolution lovely! St. Teilhard is certainly pleased. :-/
We have a hierarchy of commen, slippery as eels. I am depressed by the persistent and pervasive wilful self-delusion and delusion of others by so many Catholics who are publicly-committed and publicly-regarded as being committed to the Faith and the moral law. The mental acrobatics these people amuse be doing leaves my head reeling – and these are people that appeared reasoned and discerning “active” Catholics prior to Pope Francis. Diabolic disorientation is the best descriptor for this phenomenon – the ordinary faculties and adherence to truth has fled them. Blessed Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle . . .
Dear Louie and dear all:
That which you write is correct. However…
What I would like to draw your attention to is that this eternal battle between Good and evil is being waged on many different fronts. One of the fronts is a very subliminal one, where messages reach the subconscious of the faithful, messages that the TLM is “available” and IS an acceptable alternative to what they are used to now. This is the positive takeaway from this incident.
With each incident like the one above, this message is being reinforced. And then it is a just a question of time until the faithful start acting on it. For example, in time, there will be a trigger event that sets off a process when that individual realizes that what the NO priest said about global warming or about pets going to heaven is nonsense, and that faithful catholic starts looking for a Catholic alternative. And the end of this process is at the SSPX, Ecclesia Dei or at a TLM at the local parish. There are many testimonials to just this sequence of events.
Furthermore, that which I have written above should not be discarded out of hand as wishful thinking. Further proof of its accuracy is provided to us by Francis himself through his interlocutor Victor Fernandez, (Corriere interview) when he said:
“Because this is how Bergoglio’s revolution proceeds, “long-term, without obsession over immediate results.” Because “the important thing is to initiate processes rather than possess spaces.” Words from “Evangelii Gaudium,” the program of his pontificate.”
Well, the Holy Spirit has ” initiated processes” likewise and starting to “possess spaces”. The “process” was “initiated” with Archbishop Lefebvre in 1970 and the “possessing of spaces” was set into motion with the Summorum Pontificum. And a good place to see this “process in motion” is at the New Liturgical Movement website.
So now it is just a matter of time, and the Holy Spirit, unlike the N.O. revolutionaries, has plenty of it.
I could be wrong, but card. Sarah’s statement, when viewed in this light is actually a means of reinforcing that the SP can not now be abrogated since it has established itself too far and too wide.
And as long as the Holy Spirit keeps the SSPX outside of Modernist Rome, the SP will spread wider and farther inside the post-conciliar church. And all indications are that they are staying where they are. So in time, the “strictly pastoral” Council and its “liturgy” will fall into the category occupied by the Arians and the protestants. Or using language closer to the revolutionaries, will find itself on the trash heap of history.
Have a great feast of Corpus Christi!
One more thing while we are on the subject of “possessing spaces”…
I am providing a link for your review. I think it is a very worthwhile effort from the Radical Catholic blog via the OnePeterFive blog.
If you want to join the “process” of “occupying spaces”, here is a great way to do it.
And please spread it around.
I believe that Papa Ratzinger was more interested in having the traditionalists (including the SSPX) hoist the white of flag of surrender to tradition in exchange for being allowed to celebrate the Roman Rite of the Mass. Ultimately though, the celebration of the true mass means little if it is not accompanied in the heart of the priest by the true faith. All of the arch-modernists prior to the council had celebrated the TLM exclusively after all. Ratzinger desired to have the traddie groups as one more in a hodgepodge of all sorts of flat out heretical or borderline heretical movements (Neo-Catechumenal Way, Charismatic Movement, Foccolare, etc etc). After all, wouldn’t adding “dash” of traddies to the mix add some vigour to the mixture? 🙂
“Wait a minute,Sarah.”
Prayers before the Consecration, TLM:
“Wherefore…………… in the first place we offer for the Holy Catholic Church, that it may please Thee to grant her peace; and also to protect, unite and govern her………. Apostolic Faith.”
And again in the prayers for Holy Communion;
” O lord Jesus Christ. Who didst say to Thy Apostles, peace I leave with you, My peace I leave with you; regard not my sins, but the faith of Thy Church, and vouchsafe to her that peace and unity which is agreeable to Thy will.”
I humbly submit that barring another Fatima or Guadeloupe, it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. Our Lord is entirely in charge of the situation. Hang on to your hats and…..
Keep the Faith!
I reckon that the conciilar clergy of the Novus Ordo will continue to herd their lucritive flocks into increasing opposition to the Catholics (non-New-Order if you like) – those who will not and cannot comprimse (along with their flocks). Thus, there will be Novus Ordite Traditionalists who adhere to heretical ‘Sees’ and Catholics who adhere, however they can, to whatever is left, for the time being, of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostilic Church. (hasn’t this all happened before?)
Good point, IF. Muslims and Jews don’t worship The One True God, but our poor deluded brothers and sisters who have only a de-Catholizied Mass do worship Him. On this Feast of Corpus Christi let’s ask Him for the grace that He will enlighten the blind…
It’s seems that we are reading intent into Cardinal Ratzinger’s actions. But we do have his writings, over 5 decades. He actually wrote about his beliefs and his intentions – plain, out there for all to read. And he has retracted a few sentences only in all that verbosity.
O, if only women’s true role, as mothers and wives, could be brought forward as the sacred mission it is! Feminists will suffer most severely in Hell, or Purgatory if they repent and undo the damage they have done…women would be filled with such joy raising up souls for God that they would have no thought for pretending to be men…feminists have taught for generations that being a woman is a second-class role – that only being a slightly smaller, weaker ‘man’ brings fulfilment and happiness.
I bought into this in the early 70’s when the feminists really started to wreck havoc. All my discontent with my life bubbled to the surface – no thought that this could be my way to holiness – suffering and docility! No, no. My poor husband and all men were to blame! God help me and have mercy on me!
Some of the most chilling words in Holy Scripture are the ones Our Lord says about God blinding the perfidious Jews – He knew they would not see – so he blinds them – because they lived in sin they could not, would not see. Jesus was right before their eyes yet they were blind.
I love to meditate on that blind man who called out to Jesus passing by: “Son of David, that I may see!” (paraphrase)
I could not agree more with you about Enthroning the Sacred Heart in the home – this is essential practice. I have a most beautiful antique, wing-backed armchair in the most prominent spot in my lounge, which is Jesus’ Throne. Even my tiniest grandchildren know that nobody, but nobody, sits in “Jesus’ chair”.
“as long as the Holy Spirit keeps the SSPX outside of Modernist Rome”
Very sadly, the Holy Ghost is not doing that. The SSPX is with Rome. They strive continuously for full communion with Rome and recognition by Rome. That is their dream. They recognize Bergoglio as Pope, pray in union with him and selectively, but only selectively obey him. They, like Cicero above, ” … are obliged to exculpate ourselves [themselves] as well as we [they] can from the charge of being accomplices in those political abuses, which have left us little more than the phantom of our glorious commonwealth, the vain name and shadow of a blessing, whose reality we have long since lost.”
I pray that one day, maybe with a new Superior General, the SSPX will wake up and reject their ridiculous R&R position and break with “Rome” and stop saying the una cum Mass. How can any Catholic, let alone Priests and theologians cling to such a basically heretical position? Dumb I am, but I genuinely cannot understand it. I really can’t. If somebody can explain it to me in terms of Catholic Doctrine, I would be sincerely grateful.
If they would break away, with their numbers and excellent infra structure, they would immediately form the nucleus of the eclipsed Church and all sedes would rally around them. Various personality clashes among the Clergy would become a minor issue. If a Cardinal were to head the Consortium – hallelujah!!! I will not be surprised if this eventually happens, especially after October.
Indignus, I’m not at all convinced that the god worshipped at the Novus Ordo – by and large – (I say by and large because the Novus Ordo of my later years must be very different (I assume) from yours) is the Catholic God whom Bergoglio denies. I wish it was. But wishing is a long way from Truth most often.
Your take on this is indeed a positive one. Thank you for that. However, negative nelly that I am, the other side of the coin is that The Holy Ghost is allowing us to have pockets of TLM and true devotion to Our Heavenly Father and His Church just so we will have a place to run when the tsunami of persecution comes. (but that’s just me..)
For me, it’s helpful to take this out of modern times and go back to the Arian Crisis, for example. What if Bishop Athanasius had gathered his tiny flock of faithful and split from the hierarchy in place all over the Church? What he did was hunker down, and pray, preach, and teach his tiny faithful flock to hold on. He knew that ‘this too shall pass’ and that it was important to have a ‘leaven’ around with which to grow the Church again. If he had split, the heretics would have swamped him with the legitimate label of schism.
I don’t share your optimism. Except for some exceptions (Poland perhaps, Belarus – know this personally through acquantaince – and South Korea and some other places here and there) the church globally is on decline more than ever. And even in those countries with a significant traditionalist presence, the influence on the young of the perverse “pop”/pornographic culture that quite literally inescapeably surrounds us leads some some “trads” to live their faith solely on Sundays and at specific times of the day. IOW – the faith never really sinks into their souls. I’m not generalizing but describing some trends I’ve been noticing. At this juncture only a direct intervention from the Almighty can cause a turn of events.
Regarding Papa Ratzinger, he is nothing more than a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Or perhaps, akin to a beautiful bottle from a vintage “Bordeaux” wine wherein the inside contents are mixed in with the most insidious poison. 😉
I believe it is everyones duty to read “Work of Human Hands” by Father Anthony Cekada. This book is a real eye opener and is extremely well documented. I have watched the you tube videos by Father Anthony Cekada summarizing parts of his book but I can’t stress enough that reading this book is far more beneficial to ones Catholic education of exactly how and why the destruction of the Traditional Mass occured in minute detail beginning from Pope Pius XII reign.The theology behind the NO is protestant and freemasonary and the liturgy of the NO supresses everything Catholic. The NO promotes a Protestant theology. One cannot just bury their head in the sand or look the other way with the NO because it will poison and weaken you to death like the frog in warm water.One has to stay clear of it and continue to publically protest it . In the meantime Search for the best Traditonal Mass you can find on line if there is not one in your area of an hours driving distance and stay home and join with it.
The Mass has ended ( within the NO) now go search and fight!
What you say of real women is so true. My daughter is tiny, blonde, beautiful, intelligent and brim full of business acumen. She was progressively head hunted and eventually offered the job of G.M. of a big company in her mid twenties. She asked me whether she should take the job. I said “well you will handle the job, but you will work from 6 am till 12 pm every day. You will enjoy power and prestige and make lots of money. BUT, your kids will be drug addicts and you can kiss your husband goodbye. You can’t do both, so choose – do you want to be a career girl and end up rich and miserable, or do want to be a Wife and a Mother of a happy family and have treasures in your old age?”
She turned down the job. Her husband who is very good in IT was head hunted to America and they now live in Ashburn, Virginia.
She does all the house work, washing, ironing and cooking for her husband and 4 kids (10yrs – 18 months) and is with the baby 24/7. You have never seen such a thriving, happy family. Only problem is they now cook hamburgers and hot dogs and call it a barbecue (?) !!!
I think the difference lies between breaking with a Pope materialiter and a Pope materialiter and formaliter.
Breaking with a Pope materialiter and formaliter is out of the question – that IS heresy, but breaking with a Pope materialiter is not. The latter, due to his heresy, is merely occupying an Office in terms of Canon Law, i.e. Ecclesiastical, man made Law, until he is deposed by proper authority. He has already been stripped of all authority, the Vicarship of Christ and even Church membership by Divine Law. Therefore to break with him is proper and not heresy.
If Catholics following our Lord’s exhortation to ‘ask, seek and knock’ were unadulterated in their ‘asking, seeking, knocing’, they would read the facts of the ‘manufacture’ of the Novus Ordo Mass (and hopefully the Rites of Ordination) in a serious (not at all easy) search for Truth.
For the time being, however, the New Order religion will continue to be ‘recognised’ as somehow ‘authentic’ by too many Traditionalists who, nonetheless, feel they have the ‘right’ to resist such ‘authenticity’. Makes sense? Not to me – but the spirit of ‘collegiality’ which so many find in ‘shared moments’, however outside of Catholic Truth, holds a very attractive/powerful sway – doctrines, dogmas and disciplines be ‘damned’, basically.
Absolutely ! Hallelujah !! Amen !!!
I actually recommended “Work of Human Hands-A Theological Critique of the Mass of Paul VI” to IF in hopes it’d answer some questions presented on the Ottaviani Intervention. For brief video summaries on each chapter (merely summaries though, I recommend the book too) search YouTube. Be sure to have thick tissues nearby, whether for hard copy or video, bc tissues are sometimes necessary when we Catholics face brutal fact.
“If we only consider the evils which arise to a republic or a kingdom by a change of prince or of government; not by foreign interference, but by civil discord (in which we may see how even slight variations suffice to ruin the most powerful kingdoms or states), we may then easily imagine how much Italy and the other Roman provinces suffered, when they not only changed their forms of government and their princes, but also their laws, customs, modes of living, religion, language, and name. Any one of such changes by itself without being united with others might, with thinking of it, to say nothing of the seeing and suffering, infuse terror into the strongest minds.”
-Macchiavelli, The History of Florence
Those are holy words, Barbara. How often have I not seen Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.
I take great comfort that the Faith will not disappear in Portugal – Our Lady of Fatima, so let’s keep an eye on Portugal.
Dear de Maria,
Sedevacantists are Faithful sheep, huddled together in the stable (of Bethlehem), riding out the storm. I really like that !!!
dear Peter Lamb,
Thanks be to Almighty God and His Providence!
Today in the pre-1955 Liturgical calendar, as you know, it is the Feast of Corpus Christi. May you and all brethren have a blessed Feast Day!
“Yes, wake up calls can be a bitch, I know… but we’re far better off dwelling in a harsh reality than resting in a hopeful fantasy.” Is that a silly bitch? Your “harsh reality” bears a strange resemblance to a (vulgar) fool who’s going to wake up in hell’s fantasy. I guess Feast of Corpus Christi is as good a time as any to ask how you are any different than Cardinal Sarah when you insist that the “new” mass is valid and continue to pretend that these heretics you castigate are conferring sacramental grace on the flock they are mis-leading to hell?
Here is a fan of yours using protestant language you are currently castigating against to “restore dc catholicism”: “Obviously the Consecration is still there and it certainly is valid. … Have they no recollection that the Mass is the most important item in their days, where they encounter the Lord Jesus Christ not just spiritually but physically?”
Unfortunately, neither you nor her nor CFN w/videos to modern tunes, nor Voris, Remnant etc. seem to realize sin and heresy are all over you too! You think you can go along a little bit and still be saved.
Here is another one: “It should also be noted that Emperor Nero, largely regarded by the Church Fathers as a prefigurement of the Anti-Christ, is the first ruler of the Western World to have legitimized same-sex ‘marriages,’ participating in at least two himself.”
What a way to refer to Nero! In one of these supposed marriages, the other participant, a slave, was castrated – but it will be 10 or so more years before “Catholic” MH will be concluding that Nero “legitimized” castration. BTW Nero also murdered his mother — wonder if that legitimized matricide.
It surely is the end days for a culture that has murdered 60 million babies and 3000 more will be murdered today. Plus legalizing assisted “suicide” and euthanasia. This blog never talks about either of those facts. I wonder why.
Let us guess…”down-under” is real BBQ territory, right?
But Peter what does it mean for you and me to ‘break’ with the pope? For me it really doesn’t mean much at all. I just live out my Catholic Faith here at home and at Church.
I don’t mix with ‘the world’ at all. My friends are my fellow parishioners, and my family are for the most part faith-less. In the latter case we are looked upon as kooks but left alone for the most part.
So to break with the pope, unless I were in the position of a priest, or bishop, really is moot.
LOL! You’ve got the uptight, bitter, “Traditionalist” curmudgeon stereotype down.
Missed you James. On target, as usual.
The SSPX is following the proper course of action. Unless and until the Good Lord allows the Church to declare any or all of the post-conciliar popes to have lost the office, they have to treat the sitting one as such. Recognize the office, reject any errors coming from it. Of course it’s not the way “it should be” – we’re in a major crisis mode for crying out loud. But it is the best course of action given present circumstances.
As footnoted in Bishop Fellay’s latest letter:
“In practice our attitude should be based on a previous discernment (…): when the pope says something that is consistent with Tradition, we follow him; when he says something that goes contrary to our Faith, or he encourages or lets something be done that harms our Faith, then we cannot follow him! The fundamental reason for this is that the Church, the pope, and the hierarchy are at the service of the Faith. It is not they who make the Faith; they must serve it. The Faith is not being created, it is unchangeable, it is transmitted.”
LOL – I’m also very much the kook in my family. No, it’s not moot. When we break it doesn’t shake the world, but it is important because we are Members of the Church and we are PUBLICLY renouncing evil heresy as is our Catholic duty. We are fighting for Christ and His Church in so far as we are able to. That’s what the Holy Ghost expects of us and what He equipped us to do in our Confirmation. Our families, friends and fellow parishioners are seeing and hearing what we say and do to varying extents. That is at least making them aware that there might be a problem of which they were previously completely unaware. We are witnessing to the truth. Who knows that we haven’t planted a little seed in some person that might grow in due course without our knowing. We are the sheep bleating flat out in the fold that a wolf is at the gate. This we have to do. I meant in my comment that theologically speaking it was not schism for any Catholic, prelate, or layman to renounce the conciliar popes. We are important. Christ died for each one of us – that makes us pretty important – just as important to Him as the Pope – we just have different roles to play. God has no favourites among His children. That is why I wrote an open letter to my Archbishop and let him and anybody else who might care to listen, know that I was leaving and denouncing their false non-Catholic religion. You know the saying not to fight evil is to condone it and if we did that we would have to eventually answer for it. It’s also vital for us personally to publicly remain within the Catholic Church – extra ecclesiam nulla salus est – and the NO is not Catholic. No, dear Barbara, you are much more important than you think.
Feminists would LOVE this… http://www.onepeterfive.com/a-screwtape-letter-for-the-unappreciated-mom/
Thank God for the graces to advise your daughter well and, for her part, to follow same. One of Ireland’s previous anti-God, anti-marriage, anti-Natura Law presidents poured scorn and censure on women who stayed at home to look after their husband, children and create a true family home.
Dear Mr Lamb, I was shocked to the core at the outright apostasy that I witnessed on my one time in Portugal (albeit the Algarve, these were local bishop, priests and lay persons). The Masses were horrifyingly sacrilegious, and in all the Blessed a Sacrament hidden away, while a chair was placed where the tabernacle ought to be. There again, thee were no sanctuaries to speak of, no kneeler in the pew, no stations of the Cross, no confessionals. My son and I were so appalled, aggrieved at the offence against God, the ignoring of Him, in His own House. We prayed in reparation before the Blessed Sacrament when we found it in a Church. Most of the churchs were closed or converted into state buildings, purveying the evil of the state of Portugal. The sensum fidelium is gone in that part of the country, and demonic hedonism abounds.
There must be a formal procedure and declaration regarding obstinate material heresy and loss of the exterior office of the Papacy. Otherwise, there is no clarity or definition, predictability for the Faithful as regards the status of the papacy, and all that flows therefrom, in the visible Church.
“Manifest”, not “material”.
That thought is frightening. Lord, have mercy. Give us the graces we need to discern and persevere.
No! Who knows what goes on “down under”? 🙂
No, in South Africa we have BRAAIVLEIS !!! That’s Afrikaans for “roast meat”, but braaivleis is much more than roast meat. It’s a cultural icon, feast and bliss. It means an ice cold beer in one hand, with a couple lined up in reserve, REAL RED MEAT (big, thick beef steak, mutton chops, and/or ribs and boerewors i.e. special S.A. farm sausage of mixed beef, mutton and pork mince with spices) on an open fire accompanied by mielie pap i.e. very thick corn porridge, so thick you can mould little oxen out of it in your hand, before popping it into your mouth, doused in tomato and onion sauce. All this under clear, blue skies. This is living!
Hamburger barbeque – ag shame man! 🙂
Hehe. If you don’t want to be a stereotypical “uptight, bitter, Traditionalist curmudgeon” just don’t read all of pewsitter at once.
Guess Padre Pio was an “uptight traditionalist” too. Wonder what he’d do w/you all in the confessional – but then you don’t even know you are sinning, you are so profane. And yet you all sit around munching on the wounded body of Christ and “the endtimes” like it is popcorn. “As children of obedience, not fashioned according to the former desires of your ignorance: But according to him that hath called you, who is holy, be you also in all manner of conversation holy: Because it is written: You shall be holy, for I am holy. And if you invoke as Father him who, without respect of persons, judgeth according to every one’ s work: converse in fear during the time of your sojourning here. Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things as gold or silver, from your vain conversation of the tradition of your fathers: But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb unspotted and undefiled, Foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but manifested in the last times for you, Who through him are faithful in God, who raised him up from the dead, and hath given him glory, that your faith and hope might be in God. Purifying your souls in the obedience of charity, with a brotherly love, from a sincere heart love one another earnestly: Being born again not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible, by the word of God who liveth and remaineth for ever. 1 Peter 1:14-23
“And I said: Woe is me, because I have held my peace; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people that hath unclean lips, and I have seen with my eyes the King the Lord of hosts. And one of the seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. And he touched my mouth, and said: Behold this hath touched thy lips, and thy iniquities shall be taken away, and thy sin shall be cleansed. And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: Whom shall I send? and who shall go for us? And I said: Lo, here am I, send me. And he said: Go, and thou shalt say to this people: Hearing, hear, and understand not: and see the vision, and know it not. Blind the heart of this people, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes: lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted and I heal them. And I said: How long, O Lord? And he said: Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land shall be left desolate.” Isaiah 6:5-11
This one’s for you, JTL: “Be ye not many masters (teachers), my brethren, knowing that you receive the greater judgment. For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man.” James 3:1-2 What if the offense is to God?
“But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” Matthew 12:36-37
Louie ends his post stating that he is giving us a “wake up call”, but to me the way he used profanity there is his way of indicating his helplessness against the establishment/higher ups, i.e. he is still going to go along w/those who despise Jesus Christ and His sacrifice. Here is a wake up call from someone who put his money where his mouth is (who respects God more than men): “The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. As it is written in Isaias the prophet: Behold I send my angel before thy face, who shall prepare the way before thee. A voice of one crying in the desert: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight his paths. John was in the desert baptizing, and preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins. And there went out to him all the country of Judea, and all they of Jerusalem, and were baptized by him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. And John was clothed with camel’ s hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and he ate locusts and wild honey. And he preached, saying: There cometh after me one mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. I have baptized you with water; but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.” Mark 1:1-8
I’m shocked to hear that. How does that fit with Our Lady’s words?
Dear Mr Lamb – not as shocked as I was. Well, perhaps more appalled, as I knew that the Church in Portugal had been infiltrated by heresy and apostasy too. However, I didn’t expect it to be so explicit and defiant. I have a comment on a recent Remnant article on Fatima, which tells a little more of our terrible experiences (and this was with me trying to avoid what sounded like the worst churches, by travelling distances on public buses).
As for the Fatima message, I understand that we have only part of a sentence which appears to except Portugal from presumably something widespread.
As for Fatima itself, the heretical has invaded the Masses there, according to all reports, and can be seen even in the architecture which subverts Catholic truths.
Our Lady of Fatima, intercede for us, that we may keep the One True Faith and earn salvation.
Also, the number of churches with the TLM is as poor as in Ireland. I researched, as I so wanted to attend TLMs while there. There were none within a reasonable distance of where I was – doesn’t seem to be any in the south of the country. I wasn’t able to travel all the way to Lisbon, a few hours one way on a bus, to attend the SSPX.
Dear de Maria, I hope you saw my reply to you on the last days post (as my original replies wouldn’t publish under the previous post). God bless.
I’ve always liked Fr. Laisney’s writings. You can find them on the SSPX Asia site. He writes:
” The Donatists’ errors were not merely about sacramental validity, but also – and even before – on the matter of “communion with the wicked”; they refused communion with the Church, under the pretext that by communicating with the (supposed) wicked Bishop of Carthage, Cecilius, the rest of the Church had “fallen”. And St. Augustine strongly rebuked them by stating the Catholic principle that “in the Church communion with the wicked does not harm the good, so long as they do not consent to the
Fr. Laisney also explains:
” To understand the principle of St Augustine, one must remember the great truth which Father
Calmel often recalled: the head of the Church is Christ; the Pope is only his vicar. It is because the
communion with the members of the Church is first of all communion with Christ that it does not harm the goods, so long as they do not consent to the evil. And it is because they forget Christ at the head of the Church that certain persons are so afraid of this communion, paying attention only to the human side of the Church and forgetting the Sacred Heart who is in control of everything in His Church.”
With respect to the SSPX and their position, I am enclosing a link to the recent video which appeared at the Rorate Caeli website. The video is a homily that Bp. Fellay gave a few weeks ago. At about the 30minute mark, he begins speaking about the situation in the Church, and about at the 50 minute mark, he begins to address the questions which you raised. Of particular note is the part where Bp. Fellay speaks about the delegates that he accepted from Rome (among which were Bp. Schneider, Card. Brandmuller). He states that these clerics, without naming them, told him that the SSPX should stay where they are. This confirms my impression of the true state of affairs and the position of the leadership of the SSPX.
Peter, as a devoted carnivore your description of a real BBQ warmed my heart! And reaffirmed that there are “real” men out there! BBQ on!
I’m trying to get my imagination working on what such a hybrid would look like. Now my head hurts – thanks a lot!
Unforunately, it is not refusing communion w/the morally fallen bishop that is the issue –it is refusing communion w/heretics (i.e. those who profess heresy — teach a new/false gospel deny Jesus Christ and cast doubt on the gospels and the truths of the faith concerning the Passion, Resurrection and Ascension (also miracles, Virgin birth, original sin, etc.), engage in false worship (Assisi (where buddha (idol) placed on altar, witch doctors, hindus, participated and praying in Synagogues, Mosques and w/those who deny the sacrificial nature of the holy mass, i.e. Lutherans, evangelicals & Anglicans, JP2 KISSING the KORAN) and teaching that moral commandments no longer need to be kept (calling evil good and good evil) i.e. modest dress, speech, and conduct, birth control, fornication, adultery, abortion, homosexuality, bestiality & pedophilia (not merely engaging in sin themselves behind closed doors, but preaching that sin isn’t a crime against God and a disease that will kill the Body of Christ, but a moral good that contributes good to the Body of Christ)– teaching we must NOT save souls or preach the Gospel, but save “the planet”. Don’t worry about going to heaven or hell (which doesn’t exist) but worry about climate change (but not the one that has occurred in Rome, Italy).
You can “like” that you are not a (redefined) donatist or pelagian and that Nero was not a madman who committed monstrous deeds, but the “first ruler of the western world to legitimize same sex marriage” by castrating his prospective slave “spouse”, but you will be judged based on your actions. There is evil in this life so that the good can distinguish themselves–not go along with/or rationalize it.
May my lips not incline to evil words — to make excuses for sin.
But that’s the whole point! They are ‘staying where they are’ and not formally splitting from the Church. We are too. We stay in the Church, acknowledging this terrible pope and those wolves working through him, but we simply stay put and wait. Our Lord is in charge. He wants us to gain great merit by staying put and suffering this crisis. But to formally ‘leave’ the Church seems to me to be a move that is not necessary or advisable.
I come back to this: what is the standard that the next pope will have to meet before those who have ‘left’ come back?
What if Cardinal Burke were to be elected pope? Would we cheer and thank The Good God? Or might we carp because he still celebrates the NO? If he didn’t fix it all right away, but worked gradually over time, would we accuse him of gradualism?
We get into murky waters when we either leave in a formal manner, or declare that the past several popes have indeed NOT been true popes.
Coming back from that position might be very hard indeed.
Thank you so much for this comment. So right. We can stay in the Church and stay close to Our Lord and Our Lady without being tainted by the evil surrounding us – truly we can. What frustrates me the most is that there are millions who have just gone along with the evil without even a thought and may damn themselves.
When I was thinking about this and moaning that I felt helpless, and that I could do nothing, I realized that SHE has the power that I don’t have! Our Lady has told us that SHE will save souls if WE individually do what SHE asks.
That is why we call HER our life, our sweetness, and our HOPE.
No one said, & I hope I didn’t imply, that there was anything “wrong” with being “uptight traditionalist.” I’ve welcomed being labelled as such for many decades myself, to be quite honest, ever since the beginning of the avalanche.
But you have dismissed the words above “And St. Augustine strongly rebuked them by stating the Catholic principle that “in the Church communion with the wicked does not harm the good, so long as they do not consent to the
Who are you going to worship with now that you have decided everyone who does not have your beliefs will taint you? What is your litmus test? How do you know the hearts and minds of those you know? How do you even know the hearts and minds of those who agree with you, and do what you do? Don’t forget God made us social people – and He urges us to worship together. Unless you are a mind reader and can discern who is in the state of grace there is no one with whom you can fulfil God’s design. How can you be a leaven if you absent yourself from worship with others?
As for me, I felt great comfort from St. Augustine’s words. Don’t forget in his time too there was great evil.
Here is a very thought-provoking speech by Alexander Solzhenitsyn given in the US (I think) in 1974. Most of the references are to the Soviet but he speaks such Truth that we can learn a great lesson. It’s a bit long but well worth the read.
Ah, I just saw it now, Lynda. Thank you for alerting me. I was right, you address the matter with more erudition than I could. I apologize for enlisting your assistance w/o prior approval on your part. It is one of the more serious remarks the man made because of exactly the elements you pinpoint & is a culpable error of omission among other things.
“Who are you going to worship with now that you have decided everyone who does not have your beliefs will taint you?” Why don’t you ask St. Paul? Or St. Peter and St. John? (also Jesus Christ, St. John the Baptist, Abraham, Noah & Lot.) If you will read the Gospels and Acts you will notice that all were beaten, stoned & thrown out of the synagogues and arrested if they went to Jerusalem (while the Jews continued to try to kill them/have them killed). I have had my own experience of this (you can see occasionally happening to Voris – not allowed to call himself “Catholic” thrown out of the St. Patrick parade). If you stand for the truth of the faith in the N.O. church you are in (SSPX, FSSP, or N.O.) you will be thrown out. I stood up and I was thrown out — maybe then God will show you where to go and He will if you seek Him w/a sincere heart. You will note so many including Louie, Rorate, Voris, the Remnant, constantly phrasing things that aren’t questions as if they were questions and taking down truthful, factual posts so as not to offend bishops (corrupt high priests who are standing in contradiction to God’s clear commands on sodomy and marriage), not drawing logical conclusions from their arguments (but ending w/profanity (sin) lest they be thrown out. And why are they afraid to be thrown out? A shepherd lays his life down for His sheep–like david he kills a bear, a lion and Goliath. What is this a “wake up call” to do? Keep ‘worshiping’ w/those who DESPISE JESUS CHRIST and HIS HOLY SACRIFICE like Louie does but blog about how they despise Jesus Christ? What the hell are you worshiping? The devil, the enthronement of man (i.e. yourself), other gods (which are demons according to St. Paul)? Why was God angry w/the people that went along w/Aaron to worship the golden calf and going to destroy them (Exodus 32)? “My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me.” A wake up call is only “a bitch” when you don’t want to wake up and do what you have to do!
Fr. Laisney tells how Archbishop Lefebvre saw the crisis in the Church:”… he explained that the
Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ was a challenge to the Faith of some in the beginning of the Church,
and there were some heretics who refused to recognise the true humanity of Christ saying that God could not have suffered so much, and thus they devised that He only had an apparent body; and there
were other heretics who refused to recognise the Divinity of Him who suffered so much. In a similar
way the present Passion of the Church, Mystical Body of Christ, is a challenge to the faith of some, and
there are some who refuse to recognise the errors and evils going on in the Church, saying that Christ
could not let so much evil in the Church, and there are others who refuse to recognise that those
officials who strayed so far from their duty may still be a part of the Mystical Body of Christ and they
became sedevacantists. Archbishop Lefebvre rejected both errors, and explained that, as no one could
have said beforehand how far could physical evil (suffering) go in the physical Body of Christ, so no
one could say beforehand how far could spiritual evil (error and sin) go in the Mystical Body of Christ;
it is a mystery that the Son of God could say in His sufferings: “My God, my God, why hast thou
forsaken me?” (Mt. 27:46); yet one ought to remain faithful like Our Lady at the foot of the Cross…”
Father also writes:
“Catholic Truth is that, in spite of all the imperfection and some deep sins of the successors of the
Apostles, some saints, some reprobates and Judases, we must be in communion with them, because
they are the successors of the Apostles.”
I agree with what Barbara wrote. We have to turn towards the Immaculate Heart and trust Her to help us to stay faithful. We have to help Her to save souls by doing our daily duties in union with Our Lord’s merits in reparation for sins and by praying the rosary everyday. We’re in this war until the end when the Immaculate Heart triumphs, in the meantime all we can do is to try to make things better.
The devil is loose on the earth. He is too preoccupied with destroying the Church from the inside and too busy building up his kingdom to want to blow up the world. If Our Lord has had to sacrifice the structures of the Church you can safely believe that the alternative is worse, like no flesh left.
Dear Barbara, CraigV, S. Armaticus, Lynda,
Please excuse my answer in common, but I’m a one finger typist and it takes me ages. 🙂
I’m trying to keep it brief, because most aspects have been previously discussed on the site.
1. My outlook is 100% that of Catholics up to 1958.
2. Deposit of Faith is complete.
3. Catholic Church is indefectible.
4. Dogma of Papal Infallibility.
5. Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus Est.
6. A heretic cannot be Pope formaliter.
7. Where Peter is – there the Church is. The unity of the Church resides in the Pope.
8. Pope is sovereign. Total obedience to Magisterium is obligatory for Clergy and Laity. Pope-sifting, selective obedience condemned. (Pastor Aeternus etc,)
9. VII was a dogmatic council.
10. VII promulgated various heresies.
11. VII was therefore a false council and is anathema.
12. The conciliar popes are all demonstrable formal pertinacious heretics. Therefore they are anathema.
13. They are popes materialiter, but not formaliter.
14. The NO church is not the Catholic Church – but a sect.
15. St. Paul: If Angel teaches something different = anathema. NO religion is very different.
16. Various NO sacraments invalid. No authority and altered forms. NO mass invalid.
17. Numerous magisterial documents prohibit praying with sects – Mortalium Animos, Iam Vos Omnes, Pascendi, etc., etc. Heretics to be avoided – not prayed with.
18. NO = sect. SSPX = heresy/schism. Sede = Catholic.
” … the faith requires us not to sift the faulty magisterium and disciplines, but to reject the promulgators as a false hierarchy, that is, as a hierarchy which does not have the authority to teach, rule, and sanctify the Church. Sedevacantists are not deposing anybody, since they have no authority to do so. Hence, in the Thesis of Bishop Guérard des Lauriers, the faithful can and must say only that the Novus Ordo hierarchy lacks authority, for the reasons stated, but is not and cannot be deposed, except by a legitimate authority.
Sedevacantism … follows what St. Paul says to the Galatian faithful … If anyone, including and angel or himself, preaches a doctrine different from what he has preached, let him be anathema [see Gal 1:8-9]. He does not say: sift the false doctrine for traditional tidbits. In other words, if the preacher should contradict the previous magisterium, he should be utterly rejected, and not “accepted but sifted.” Likewise Paul IV calls for the utter rejection of the elected pope who turns out to be a heretic. The faithful are commanded not to sift his doctrine for truth, but to consider him as a false pope.
Therefore if by “pope-sifting” we mean that the Catholic faithful must reject as false a preacher of false doctrine, even if he should be St. Paul himself, then sedevacantists plead guilty, for this is what St. Paul and the Catholic Church require us to do. “Pope-sifting” is in fact the wrong word. “Heretic-sifting” is more accurate, i.e., sifting the hierarchy for heretics, something the Church has always done. For no heretic can be a true pope. http://www.novusordowatch.org/wire/sedevacantism-pope-sifting.htm
Here’s a money quote from Father Laisney’s Easter sermon:
“…Yet it was the Body of Christ, and there was no other: Our Lady, one apostle St John, and a few holy women remained faithful. And it was THIS BODY that rose again on Easter morning. In a similar way, by the scandals and errors of the modernists the mystical body of Christ has somehow lost its beauty and comeliness, and has become abject and despised. Yet it is the mystical Body of Christ, and there is no other. We must with Our Lady remain faithful to that One True Church, for there is no other mystical Body of Christ! And it will be THIS BODY that will be restored to beauty and vigour by our Lord Jesus Christ!”
I always forget that The Holy Catholic Church IS the Mystical Body of Christ!! And I forget that she (and we) have to go through a passion, like Our Head, Jesus Christ.
Part of the passion is remaining at the foot of the Cross.
We will know the next true Pope immediately:
1. His teaching will reflect every iota of traditional Catholic Doctrine.
2. He will immediately declare VII and the NO false and void.
Amen !!! The indefectible Body of Christ – never changes, never novelty, never new like the NO is.
Dear Mr Lamb, This is not the place to start arguing the big questions of the staus of the Council of VII and its unprecedented format of document, or the criteria for the infallibility of statements of the Magisterium, or the determination of the loss of the exterior office of the Papacy by a manifest, pertinacious heretic. Let’s just stick with the post by our host.
Bishop Fellay describes what the reformers have in mind (per C.Maradiaga), denouces the new false Mercy, and Suggests what we can do:
–the reformers problem: “..the reforms .. are in danger– have caused a serious crisis in the Church. a sort of schizophrenia.
–Their idea of the cause: leaving the OLD SPIRIT intact, the TRADITIONAL SPIRIT reforms were not understood,
–their solution: — WE MUST NOT GO BACK .. a spirit [of MERCY] corresponding to the reforms must still be infused, to motivate and energize them.
Bishop Fellay : “This is extremely serious. – this spirit spoiled everything about the Council, even the parts that can be understood in a Catholic way..”
“..the Gospels insist on the duty of conversion, renunciation and penance. “Unless you do penance, you shall all perish” (cf. Lk 13:5).
“..The Blessed Virgin in her apparitions, says nothing different: “prayer and penance”.
“.. the new mercy is nothing but complacency about sin. God loves you… no matter what. is an adaptation to the ways of the world
“Can you truncate mercy, cut it off from necessary repentance–for the stated purpose of giving a new spirit to the conciliar reforms and breaking with the traditional spirit? Certainly not! – people no longer say that other religions are false, or -teach about the dangers of the world, -or the Devils.”
“–This spirit explains the present sufferings of Holy Mother Church. Ireland, once so Catholic, where “marriage” between persons of the same sex has just been
legalized, is a distressing example. “God is not mocked” (Gal 6:7) If Our Lady could say, more than a century ago, that it was all she could do to hold back the avenging arm of her Son… what would she say today? The lives of human beings in the world today are calling down the wrath of God on every side.”
What to do?
” –the graces of a Holy Year–When the floodgates of grace are opened wide, we must receive abundantly!
–we reject a one-sided mercy and live by mercy in all its aspects… our lips is miserere.The awareness of our misery makes us ask for forgiveness, fills us with contrition and is accompanied by the intention not to sin again. The true love that inspires this -causes us to understand the necessity of making reparation for our sins. Hence the expiatory sacrifice is satisfactory.
–Let us take this appeal to mercy seriously, as the inhabitants of Nineveh did! Let us go in search of the lost sheep, let us pray for the conversion of souls, let us
perform as much as we can all the works of mercy, both material and especially the spiritual works, for there is a serious shortage of the latter.
–ask the God of mercy for an ever deeper conversion to holiness
–We will prepare for the centennial of the apparitions of Our Lady in Fatima by practicing devotion to her Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart and propagating it with all our strength, as she demanded. We will keep begging that her requests, particularly the consecration of Russia, will at last be properly carried out.
–Let us not separate what God wants to see joined: the Two Hearts of Jesus and Mary, as Our Lord explained to Sister Lucy of Fatima.
–And in this way we will offer as well as possible our collaboration with the merciful will of God to save all people of good will.
p.s. Recent news–the CDC granted Fellay authority to judge an SSPX priest on a serious case. B. Fellay called it another beautiful contradiction.
–it’s getting harder and harder for anyone to call this a schismatic situation, isn’t it?
Yeah, you’re right. You so resemble Padre Pio that it’s almost as if you were him.
oops–correction the CDF (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) granted….
Me thinks you worship yourself and your own “righteousness”.
“[C]ommunion with the members of the Church is first of all communion with Christ that it does not harm the goods, so long as they do not consent to the evil.” St Augustine’s ‘wicked’ must surely have been those whose morals are wicked, not those who have fallen into the wickedness of false faiths. His condemnation appears to be directed at the Donatist heretics who have constructed a doctrine of judging the moral interior of persons and thereby cutting them off from communion. The Church does not judge interior dispositions (De internis non iudicat Ecclesia), but the Church does and must jugde ‘objective conditions’. Therefore we would sink into public ‘wickedness’ (a wickedness that can and should be judged) if we were to choose to have communion with heretics and schismatics and apostates because this causes public scandal.
PS. That the Church does not judge interior dispositions makes the ‘intention’ apologetics of JPII et al. so ridiculous.
Fr Laisney is way out on a breaking limb because he is saying (just as VII teaches) that gnostics/heretics/apostates belong to the Body of Christ. In other words Fr Laisney advocates the Frankenchurch evil promulgated by VII (which concludes concord between Christ and belial – an impossibility). I have never found an opinion in the words of Archbishop Lefebve himself that would come close to the words Fr Laisney is putting in his mouth.
PS. using Laisney’s quote against his reasoning because his reasoning is shakey.
PS. Is it just me or do the words of Fr Laisney twist and turn, mixing falsehood and truth with all the adeptness of a real modernist? Perhaps, he, like Bergoglio, ‘needs’ a better translator?
Why is this not the place to argue the “big questions”? The EVIL vatican 2 council’s only purpose was to DESTROY Catholicism. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!!!!! When we come to that logical understanding, which is of course imperative, THEN we can move on. No True Catholic, in ANY way, can possibly have ANY connection to the false vatican 2 church. That sect (vatican 2) is NOT OF OUR LORD!!!!! Shame on ALL of those who give it credence by supporting it. Yes my view will be “unpopular” but this is the only way!! Francis exists because good men and women (the r/r crowd) play the fools.
Perhaps Lynda was engaging in tongue-in-cheekness? We are obligated to battle with these big issues. I do hope that, as things get down to the wire, people’s loyalty’conformity will be to the Infallible Magisterium (which includes the ordinary universal magisterium (despite the opining/wishing of so many that it didn’t)). If we end up simply following factions because that’s where we feel comfortable we have already made our desciscion – that being to follow the magisterium of feeling comfortable.
“We can stay in the Church and stay close to Our Lord and Our Lady without being tainted by the evil surrounding us – truly we can.”
We will stay in the Church! Amen!. We will! But, here is some confusion. Staying in the NO church is not staying in the Church. The No church is not Catholic. Our stolen buildings are not the Church – we faithful Catholics are the Church. The apostate NO hierarchy are not the Church. We cannot stay in the acknowledged evil surrounding us without being contaminated. To think otherwise is mistaken. To say so is a mistake. Scripture says don’t play with tar – you will get your hands dirty! St. Paul says let purveyors of evil doctrine be anathema. The Church is wherever faithful clergy and laity are huddled in the stables.
I guess she was probably trying to shift the conversation to the “forum” where these issues can be freely discussed without “clogging” the comment box for the current issue being discussed.
“Therefore we would sink into public ‘wickedness’ (a wickedness that can and should be judged) if we were to choose to have communion with heretics and schismatics and apostates because this causes public scandal.”
You have said in a nutshell precisely what I was trying to impart.
He quotes Archbishop Lefebvre from the 1982 ordination sermon:
“How can you be a leaven if you absent yourself from worship with others?”
We may not worship with non-Catholics – Mortalium Animos – we can only proselytize among them. We only worship with Catholics and if there are none where we are, we worship by ourselves. What has Good with Evil, or Christ with belial?
Hey Peter. It seems to me that ‘scandal’ and ‘heresy’ were of utmost concern to the Church for 1900 years and therefore should remain so but I’ve come across so many consevatives who think its nothing to take seriously. Christ says that scandaliser of innocence deserves a ‘millstone around the neck’ and the bottom of the ocean in short time. I think that’s pretty serious.
Thanks for the link. The speech in the link is very straighforward recognise and resist. I have to say that here and there the Archbishop’s words, if translated well, contain muddled and anxious pronouncements. “We are nearing the end. Everyone will fall into heresy. Everyone will fall into error because wicked clergy, as St. Pius X predicted, have found their way into the Church and occupied it. They have spread errors from the positions of authority they occupy in the Church.” I agree that “as St. Pius X predicted, [heretics] have found their way into the Church and occupied it. They have spread errors from the positions of authority they occupy in the Church”. I agree because heretics do ‘occupy (like squatters) the vacant sees – and those sees are ‘vacant’ on account of heresy and apostasy. However it is patenly not true that “Everyone will fall into heresy. Everyone will fall into error because wicked clergy…” If that were true Christ’s promise with regard to the Church would be null and void. At the crux, however, I can’t see in the Archbishop’s words the sort Frankenchurch that Fr. Laisney that advocates – perhaps others can?
“no one could say beforehand how far could spiritual evil (error and sin) go in the Mystical Body of Christ;”
Yes, sin can spread far in the Mystical Body, but heresy, schism and apostasy (i.e. error) not at all. These sins against Faith sever all connection with the Mystical Body and cannot therefore cannot spread IN it – they only spread outside it.
” … it is a mystery that the Son of God could say in His sufferings: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Mt. 27:46);”
Not at all! Here is no mystery. These are the opening words of psalm 22. Our Lord was physically, medically, incapable of speaking long sentences by this stage of his physiological deterioration. He opened the psalm and left us to continue with it to its conclusion of hope and triumph:
“For he has not scorned him who is downtrodden, nor shrunk in loathing from his plight, nor hidden his face from him, but he has listened to his cry for help. (24) ” May you always be in good heart!” (26)
He was not saying that the Father had abandoned Him – He was saying that even though times might be tough, when it might seem that God had withdrawn from us, He has NOT done so. He spoke the opening words of the psalm to teach us precisely the opposite of what they appeared to convey.
“Father also writes: “Catholic Truth is that, in spite of all the imperfection and some deep sins of the successors of the Apostles, some saints, some reprobates and Judases, we must be in communion with them, because they are the successors of the Apostles.”
Catholic Truth teaches, St. Paul teaches that we are to remain in communion with sinful Successors, but that we are to let heretical Successors be anathema. We do not follow blindly !!!
“And it will be THIS BODY that will be restored to beauty and vigour by our Lord Jesus Christ!”
“In a similar way, by the scandals and errors of the modernists the mystical body of Christ has somehow lost its beauty and comeliness, and has become abject and despised.”
Both wrong! The Mystical Body is the spotless, infinitely beautiful Bride of Christ. Her beauty never dims, never needs restoration. Her vigour cannot be impaired. Only Her membership can diminish.
“For all we know that’s a reference to the re-translation of the Roman Missal for the still-deficient Novus Ordo, or the so-called “Benedictine Arrangement;” that lipstick-on-a-pig job that includes the placement of six candles on the big table (otherwise known as an altar) along with a crucifix, allowing for the priest to pretend that he is facing the Lord even as he plays host to the people.”
“As for Cardinal Sarah himself, this man is no liturgical knight in shining armor. He’s really more akin to an officer of the revolution; a man of the Council through and through.”
“According to the disoriented men in Rome today, of which Cardinal Sarah is a card carrying member (in spite of any style points he may deserve for occasionally celebrating the Mass of Ages), the new rite, concocted by a bunch of experts sitting around a conference table behind closed doors (to say nothing of the valuable input of protestants), is an example of “legitimate development.”
” … after all, was the supreme goal of the Council of which Cardinal Sarah said in his message to Sacra Liturgia: I ask you to continue to work towards achieving the liturgical aims of the Second Vatican Council…”
What is Louie talking about on this, his post, if not the “big questions”? 🙂
If only Bishop Fellay would seek a quiet corner, light his pipe and repeat to himself over and over:
” St. Paul said anybody who teaches a different doctrine must be anathema; St. Paul said anybody who teaches a different doctrine must be anathema; St. Paul said anybody who teaches a different doctrine must be anathema; St Paul says……..
Bishop Fellay is so Catholic and eventually it would sink in that St. Paul said anybody who teaches a different doctrine must be anathema. He would then arise, knock out his pipe, put it into his pocket, withdraw his recognition from, and cease praying with, the anathematized and assume a position of prominence among the faithful sheep huddled in the stable.
You’re of course entitled to express your opinions just as those who promote the SSPX or other views are. You’ll see us pop in to refute anything that seems false to us, because we realize that truth is what will lead us to unity with God’s will for us all, and right now, thing are very confused even among the Faithful.
Our reason for posting Bishop Fellay’s words above, was that the truth is so evident in all of it. From his informative reporting of the “agenda” of the modernists, to his denunciation of false Mercy that leaves souls imprisoned in sin thinking they have the approval of God; ending with that truly magnificent list of reminders of the way Catholic people should respond in any crisis with Faith in Divine Providence and works that connect us to the Graces God willingly supplies-ready for the asking. It touches our hearts and souls to hear words like that, as well as giving us excellent advice on how to cope with what is happening right now. Especially like the reference to not dividing the Sacred Heart of Jesus and Immaculate Heart of Mary. These eternal truths break through all the disagreements we see on blogs like this, and unite us. We just wanted to focus on that for a bit. Re-focus attention on Our Lord and Our Lady and the help that is still here for us all. 🙂 🙂
My comment immediately above does not express my opinion.
It refers to an explicit command of St. Paul, inspired by the Holy Ghost. It is Divine Revelation which applies to all Catholics – Bishop Fellay included.
His words which you quoted, are good and express truths indeed, but serve as no compensation for his disobedience to Holy Scripture. 🙂 🙂
Dear Peter Lamb (and all)
This is off -topic —but a MUST SHARE for anyone passionate about defending the unborn. A father of 7 give the U.S. House of Reps some words to remember.
It’s wonderful! I hope it does go viral – only 230 views so far. I only wish he would leave out the “feeling pain” qualification and include all babies from conception. A “foetus” is not something different, neither is a conceptus. They are morphological stages in the growth of the same baby. Whether the baby can feel pain, or not, has nothing to do with the evil of murdering the him. This is sentimentality. Is it cruel and insensitive to murder a baby painfully, but OK to murder him painlessly? Whether he feels pain, or not, is not the criterion. His right to life is!
The pain of the baby will be added eternally to the pain of the unrepentant abortionist in hell and how I wish I could fan the flames !!!
Aw come on Peter, you’re way too intelligent to expect any of us to buy this: “My comment immediately above does not express my opinion.”-only quotes St Paul..???
Be honest. You know as well as we do, that your statement would only be true if you omitted all the other words you wrote– especially your opening sigh : “IF ONLY B.Fellay would.. which clearly expresses that what follows is what you think needs to happen to FIX something that is wrong with Bishop Fellay’s life.
The image you then paint clearly say you think he needs to go spend some quality time fully focussed on those words of St. Paul– which you reapeat 3 times before adding a 4th–about ANYONE who teaches a DIFFERENT doctrine. Obviously meaning your readers to understand that you think he is currently NOT aware enough of those words, and how much they apply to him and his beliefs. Why else point them out?
Care to retract? 🙂 🙂
We agree fully with the need for the message to include all, and obviously so does the Congressman He did say he believes that -from conception–and also that knows his colleagues don’t agree. So he tries to reach them with the utter hypocrisy of their professions of concern for the suffering in that bill, while they ignore the suffering of babies who can feel pain. He didn’t ignore the facts he simply emphasized the part they couldn’t deny based on their own arguments. No cop-out there.
Dear Mr Lamb, I was just responding to your message above with long list of items. Basically, I don’t think there was good attempting to turn this comment thread towards those major questions. I know I’m not up to dealing with them so as to add anything to what had been dealt with before. God bless your energy! Of course those big issues that I mentioned underpin most of the crisis that we are trying to cope with here and in our lives and so always has some relevance, but Mr Verrechio did ask that big discussions be taken to the Forum, so that comments on a particular post could be kept to the content thereof. God bless. Your sister in Christ.
Sorry, Mr Lamb. My reply came out in wrong place – above. God bless.
Amen. Diabolic disorientation abounds in the Church because of the apostates, heretics, and enemies of God that have control of it.
Well said, Mr Lamb. The truth is officially banned from public life. The fight against the legalisation and normalisation and mass industrialisation of baby slaughter, and the mass killing of others via the corruption of “medicine” and its practitioners is so evil it could only be directed by the Devil himself. The voices of true physicians and healers such as yourself are very important in the ongoing fight against this abomination, the slaughter of the innocents and the ruination of souls on a mass scale. The next rally in Ireland is in Dublin on 2nd July (4 weeks). If you think you could contribute anything, I’m sure Youth Defence, the organisers, would be delighted to read it out to the crowd after the March. GB.
You are correct Indignus.
You are right, Peter, that it is very difficult to remain in the NO Church.
In our FSSP parish we have three families, each with 7 children, Mum at home – who moved hundreds of miles, changed jobs and uprooted away from extended family – JUST SO THEY COULD GO TO THE LATIN MASS, and have a real Catholic parish, and life.
Extreme? No. Each one has told us they were losing their Faith staying in NO-land, so they packed up and moved.
Can this be done? Yes. Should it be done? That’s a very personal decision for a family to make.
It could be the answer. Can we develop communities around a good parish? What are your thoughts on this?
But you may have forgotten that the perfect Body of Jesus was disfigured, lost its beauty etc. He restored it on Easter Sunday. He had a real body, and it really was disfigured and really did lose its beauty.
We do know that The Church is the Bride – the pure Bride. But we also know that if she is to suffer in her body as her Head suffered she must be disfigured and lose her beauty. It is possible to think of the Church as the spotless Bride, and as suffering real disfigurement as a type of Christ’s disfigurement. It’s not either/or, but both.
This talk about those at Vatican II wanting to destroy the Church speaks to motive, intention – we cannot do this.
We can only speak about action, what they did, said, wrote. And of course that is bad enough.
But we cannot say their intention was to destroy because we simply can’t know this.
The ideal of course would be to join a sede parish. That is possible in America, in a few places. I would tend towards a SSPX parish, if there was one, but that is not theologically ideal. Hard as it is, the correct answer would be to bite on the bullet, teach your kids catechism at home and assist at St. Gertrude’s virtually on their webcasts. In America there are quite a few Mass locations where sede Priests travel long distances to say Mass periodically. Can you believe that Fr. Francis Miller O.F.M has flown from Lafayette (?) in America to South Africa twice, so far, to hear our Confessions and bring the Mass to one family in Durban and me by myself in Pretoria? You can’t imagine the experience of having a real Mass again after about 46 years.
P.S. I converted to sede by myself from reading extensively on the net. A few MONTHS later, a sede priest was saying Mass IN MY HOME. Coincidence? I do not believe so.
We have no guarantee that His physical body was perfect. It is very unlikely, but it is true to say His physical beauty was destroyed. The Church Militant has lost her beautiful buildings and trappings and been decimated by apostacy, but that doesn’t affect her beauty. Her beauty lies not in material things. What you said is perfectly true – she is to imitate Christ; she carries her cross behind Him; she is suffering as He did; she is having Her Passion as He did, but her beauty remains unimpaired. I know we are both right, but I’m not theologian enough to be able to properly marry these truths. Maybe we could say that your concept is a true and beautiful analogy and mine a theological truth? Different things but both true? Well that brings us to what you already said! 🙂
We most certainly do know, beyond a shadow, of a shadow of doubt that VII was a ruthless, cold-blooded, premeditated, calculated, satanic, judeo-masonic plot to destroy the Catholic Church from within. We DO know this – Alta Vendita – judeo-masonic infiltration etc., etc.
LOL! You certainly can complicate things. 🙂 🙂
What I was endeavouring to impart was that St. Paul’s explicit admonition was not a matter of my opinion, but of fact. However, your interpretation is perfectly valid and I’m delighted you got my message. If only Bishop Fellay would. (sigh.) 🙂 🙂
So, us being good Christians and all that, would you kindly accept a clarification in lieu of a retraction? 🙂 🙂
LOL, Neither is necessary, as the retraction question was in jest. 🙂 🙂
Our desire to see accurate speech, and our refutations of false claims, while they may feel like unnecessary complications to you, can end up helping you as much as others like us. .
With the various viewpoints being expressed here about such important things as how we worship, whether we receive the Sacraments like Penance and Holy Eucharist and physically or virtually; and who we recognize as having the authority to act as Pope;– and with all claiming to wish to live by the Truth; (most to be in possession of it) obviously some conflicting ideas are wrong. So, finding the truth is important.
Ultimately, after many links are read, for those still not convinced, it comes down to continuing in prayer, reading ongoing discussions and reflecting on their reasoning while doing further research. The credibility of those witnessing, factors into that process-like it or not. If they speak factually, avoiding gross exaggeration or false innuendo and other propaganda techniques; admitting errors when they are correctly pointed out to them–there is less reason to doubt either their integrity or their judgment, and more reason to see what they believe as possibly having some real merit, –something worthwhile to continue pursuing.
Also it’s easier for us to zero in on actual, rather than imagined differences between their ideas and ours.
Our questions and concerns can help you continue to examine your beliefs and statements in light of the truths to which we compare them, and keep you on track and expressing them more clearly. (you can thank us in heaven some day 🙂 🙂
In your chat with Barbara above, we can see in both of you the desire to help people avoid the wolves. We share that. We would never tell a family with young children, for example, to regularly attend an N.O. in their area, even if there were no other rite available, IF the only ones there had modernists priests giving harmful homilies, or hearing their confessions. We do advise that kind of sacrificial attendance for adults like yourself, who would be impervious to false teaching in homilies, because of what you know, –as a last-resort for receiving the Sacraments, and fulfilling obligations.
As you likely know by now, we disagree with you and Barbara when you claim the N.O. as intrinsically harmful . We once had a pastor who said it regularly and reverently ( RIP) , and in telling him our concerns for the Church ( 30 years ago) he held up his copy of his “The Wanderer” and began talking about his own agony and ongoing work to fight the then-growing abuses. (Tears welled up at times in both men present). He’s been gone for a long time now, but his parish still is known as conservative -Tabernacle right where is belongs; Adoration 24/7 . All Hymns from our childhood Masses, today. (Not always) The prayers of the Faithful were for life, from conception till natural death, appreciation of the Real Presence in the Eucharist, etc. –Catholic petitions for increased holiness.
Despite new pastors, receiving on the tongue or kneeling is respected. (Very unlike your experience, we know)
Whatever the intentions of the N.O.’s s composers turn out to be, (not even doubting your list) we’ve not seen you mention the fact that God is perfectly capable of foiling those plans–all of them, and protecting His flock from being without a true Mass, (from the late ’60s to the Moto Propio40 years later), while the Church weathers this Satanic, modernist invasion He allowed- –perhaps ending up restoring the TLM to its rightful place.
From what we’ve seen over the last half century, there are no prayers in the current rite that are in any way harmful to souls. You’ve heard us talk about our love for God and his Church, AND Tradition. There are many others like us who attend these N.O.’s regularly, who feel as we do, BECAUSE they’ve rejected all error, including modernism. NOT claiming a majority, just pointing out that it’s the modernists and abuses that merit the correction and even avoidance when necessary– not the N.O. itself, (with its validly ordained priests and The Blessed Sacrament–just as with the TLM).
Our hearts go out to those families Barbara mentioned, who want and need to, but haven’t been able to find something like she has. We know how blessed we’ve been all these years, to have found some parishes with good priests–even though it took transferring here and there, many rosaries, and some travel. We know it’s not the case all over, and statistically it looks like the modernists are “winning”. But we know what Jesus stated and promised about the end, so we place our trust in Him, and continue to work and pray.
Barbara, stick with it, and encourage others to join you. Peter, we pray you’ll get over the aversion to the N.O., and make use of it to receive our Lord in person, as well as the Sacrament you wait years at a time to receive from a visiting priest. We know, this is not where you are right now in your beliefs. We respect your desire to do only what you believe to be true. We can only hope that we all end up with parishes and Masses no Catholic ever has to question again.
One final thought on Fatima. Our Lord told Sister Lucy “Make it known to my ministers, that given they follow the example of the King of France in delaying the execution of My command, that they will follow him into misfortune. It will never be too late to have recourse to Jesus and Mary.” The third secret appears to give us an image of that tragic event taking place. We’re now witnessing things deteriorate rapidly in the world and among the disoriented hierarchy of the Church, yet we know that the only people who qualify as His disobedient ministers – who were asked to Consecrate Russia and have refused-, would have to be a valid Pope, and Bishops. No Pope has yet been killed since these words were uttered by Our Lord, so if we see this come to pass, it will be reasonable to assume those thus chastised are those referred to by Our Lord–and include His valid Pope—who disobeyed.
Something to ponder at least.
Peace to you.
Please would you kindly answer these questions?
1. Does St. Paul say in Galations I (8,9):
“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you beside that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.
As I said before, so I say now again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.” ?
2. Is St. Paul’s admonition clear, unambiguous and explicit?
3. Does the NO church teach a gospel different to that of the Catholic Church?
4. Does the word “anathema” mean a formal curse of the Church, excommunicating a person or denouncing
5. Is it Scriptural to worship in a church which teaches a doctrine different to that of the Catholic Church?
Simple yes, or no answers will suffice. Thank you. 🙂 🙂
4. Do you
6. Is St. Paul’s admonition absolute, or relative?
May be not a mistake but the work of the Holy Spirit?
More gimmicks from debate 101? 🙂 🙂 …Construct something to make your opponent’s position “appear” wrong and yours right, by forcing them to say “yes” several times in a row to some true statements, while denying them opportunity to explain how your position misapplies said truths.
– How about a resounding Yes! — to #6 🙂 🙂
And, your turn?– same Yes or No?
1. Does it say in Joshua[Ch1] “Take care to observe the entire law which my servant Moses enjoined on you.. Do not swerve either to the right or left.”?
2. Does that entire law include Deuteronomy 22:24 [punishment for adultery] Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city..”
3. Was it written anywhere in that Law that the stoners must first be sinless?
4. Did Jesus also say, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)”
5.Did Jesus say, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone”. John[8:7]
6. Was “the woman caught in adultery” stoned, as the Law that is unchangeable according to Our Lord, demands?
7. Must there be some less-than obvious explanation for this apparent contradiction? or as you put it, : Is God’s law absolute, or relative?
Point being, Scriptures can be misused to try to argue things like the view that “We are obliged to judge him ourselves” — with no special classification for the Vicar of Christ? Been there. Don’t agree. 🙂 🙂
We moved to be close to the Traditional Mass. It was a lot of work but it all went smoothly. For anyone thinking about this I would very much recommend making a novena to the Sacred Heart. From making your First Fridays and First Saturdays, attending daily a Traditional Mass, having a good school to send your children and any good graces you can think of for your family, all can be got from the Sacred Heart.
Indignus (if this reply ends up in the right place ) the idea of separating the Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart…blimely…on goes the fire-works. The harm in the Novus Ordo Brand is that one can, with its blessing, go off and be a population control abortionist gay atheitstic divorcee and still be ‘velkommed’ to the ‘Holly Youcharist’ by the ‘Holly Fatar’. There is the defunct law of don’t eat ham, don’t strick a match or flick on a switch between Friday evening and Saturday evening in opposition to moral and salvific ‘law’ of ‘Christ Risen’ – the whole point of Israel’s loyalty.
LOL! A resounding Yes! — to #6. All correct! Great! OK!
So putting 1-6 together :
Is it fair to say that your worshiping in a non-Catholic church, as denounced by St. Paul, defies Scripture in disregard of St. Paul’s absolutely explicit admonition that you not do so?
Yes, or no please.
(My turn to wriggle is coming, but let’s settle this point first.) 🙂 🙂
Sorry, now I get it. Yes! — to #6 means yes to 1-5, but doesn’t include 6. So you didn’t answer no. 6! That’s a bit sneaky Indignus and for that one mark is deducted!
Well FYI the correct answer was “absolute.”
And by the way, one must read exam papers carefully. That I say after 50 year’s experience. The question was: Is St. Paul’s admonition absolute, or relative? It was NOT: Is GOD’S law absolute, or relative?
Pity about that – I really thought you got 100%. I must be firm, because your desire to see accurate speech is mirrored by my desire for accurate comprehension. 🙂 🙂
I guess we will see when we each face judgment. But I caution you (1) calling yourself by a saint’s name and (2) such a coarse, flippant, trying to be cool (hard) conscience (very hard not when formed by the NO and even the heads of bishop’s conferences tell cardinals to STFU – and nearly everyone in “Catholic” blogosphere understands what he’s saying!)
Be holy. Be perfect. These are not my words but the inspired word of God.
First–You were wrong on both guesses about our answer– maybe you’re trying to read too much into things. 🙂 🙂 or just kidding–it’s hard to tell in this format.
Our “Yes” to #6 , was simply “Yes”, to #6 as stated, as a demonstration that yes and no answers are not very helpful sometimes–(it was a punctuation point.)
2. — If you want accurate “comprehension” of the point you’re making, it will help if you would clarify what you meant here:
A. Was St. Paul’s admonition absolute or relative?—–is that not an either/ or question about two opposites?. You answer NO. –To what? No it’s not absolute or no, it’s not relative?
B. Are you also saying that the words of Scripture which give us laws of God, such as Paul’ “admonitions” are NOT the same as God’s Law, even though the they were directly inspired by God?( Dogma) How is it you are differentiating those from one another?
3. In your summary , you attempt to challenge us to with a question about our worship in which you insert a false statement–that it is done in a non-Catholic Church. If we’re wrong about not judging the Pope as lay people, we’re still fully members of the Church into which we were Baptized, who are following their consciences which are rightly formed. But if you’re wrong about judging him as you have, you qualify as schismatic–rejecting the authority of a true pope. That would place you worshipping in a non-Catholic (or schismatic ) Church, wouldn’t it?
It seems you are taking a big risk here, and we are simply continuing to go to Church whenever we can, in a wholesome Catholic environment–usually the indult TLM, and sometimes the N.O, in a parish that recognizes the Pope has not been removed or replaced —Yet.
So we would agree with your true statement about those who worship in non-Catholic Churches, but not your false statement, that we do that.
The hour is late.
That thread was getting way to hard to navigate, and we didn’t want to ignore you–so we’re pasting your comment here.
“Indignus (if this reply ends up in the right place ) the idea of separating the Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart…blimely…on goes the fire-works. The harm in the Novus Ordo Brand is that one can, with its blessing, go off and be a population control abortionist gay atheitstic divorcee and still be ‘velkommed’ to the ‘Holly Youcharist’ by the ‘Holly Fatar’. There is the defunct law of don’t eat ham, don’t strick a match or flick on a switch between Friday evening and Saturday evening in opposition to moral and salvific ‘law’ of ‘Christ Risen’ – the whole point of Israel’s loyalty.”
Very sorry, but after three times through, we may still need a translation, LOL.
Tell us if we got you right:
-You’re okay with the Sacred Heart part of things in Fellay’s talk, as something to celebrate…..But…..
You then list a number of sinful behaviors and outrages, that modernist in the Church often participate in and/ or bless,–the kind of things we regularly denounce here; followed by something about ham and light switches and Israel…. honestly, we’re interested but totally in the dark about your meaning (pun intended)
🙂 🙂 Your point again, sir, in plainer English for us not-so savvy old folks, if you please?
‘scuse me. The Novus Ordo Pew-pick-pocketers…where do the PPPs get their jurisdiction?
PPP’s would that be the ushers? Off the tops of our heads—Short answer, all rightful authority comes from God. Longer one: In His Church it has been placed by Him in His Apostles with Peter, His Vicar at their head, and in their successors till the end of time-during which He promised to remain with Her. They exercise it in Dioceses all over the world, delegating power to the clergy to guide parishes, for the support of which the Sunday and Holy Day collections usually are made–by ushers who volunteer their time, to serve the Lord. Right now, that delegation includes parishes and societies like the FSSP and others who serve congregations which prefer the TLM. And lately it’s looking like they are getting ready to delegate some more of it to the SSPX. At least they acknowledged B. Fellay’s power to Judge his priests last month. We personally, are praying and waiting for God to clean house in a big way, ridding us of modernists -preferably by conversion. It seems to us we’re already in a chastisement period, that will likely get worse before it ends with the Consecration of Russia, after which time we expect to see zero modernists in the hierarchy, and quite a few very relieved religious–some of whom are friends of ours, who are doing their best to fight these evils, and have already paid dearly for it-though not yet with their lives, but they say they are willing. That kind of Faithful witness amidst this turmoil, has helped us.
RE: the ppps. Their jurisdiction comes from God? noo more than that of the local casino? But who can judge? The local casino, or the local Novus Ordo Bishop or the wierd god they both worship? Or the ‘wierd’ God others used to worship?
Do you really believe all of the Bishops who have remained in what you call the N.O. Church have lost the Faith?
What if you knew there were at least 12 Faithful ones remaining?
We know what the Lord once did with that number.
And this time, Our Lady’s wearing battle armor.
No, dude. I believe there are shining lights who seek ask and knock for God Almighty and that they will keep their lights on account of their asking, seeking and knocking.
Back to the beginning.
3. Does the NO church teach a gospel different to that of the Catholic Church?
You answered : yes.
Well then the NO church cannot be the Catholic Church and is, per definition, a non-Catholic church.
5. Is it Scriptural to worship in a church which teaches a doctrine different to that of the Catholic Church?
You answered : Yes.
Nope, sorry, answer is incorrect. Another mark off. What St. Paul writes to the Galatians is Scripture, so to defy St. Paul is not being Scriptural.
6. Is St. Paul’s admonition absolute, or relative?
You answered : yes.
Sorry, that doesn’t answer the question. You must choose “absolute”, or “relative”. (That’s why I thought you left no. 6 out.) Yes, that is an either/ or question about two opposites. So you must choose. So you still loose that mark, because your answer was wrong. Correct answer is “absolute.”
No, I didn’t answer no to anything!
No, I was not differentiating between God’s Law and Scripture – they are one and the same thing. I was differentiating between my question, which was
“Is ST. PAUL’S admonition clear, unambiguous and explicit?” and what you imputed to me : ” as you put it, : Is GOD’S law absolute, or relative?”
I almost feel like taking another mark off for that, red herring, but I won’t.
“If we’re wrong about not judging the Pope as lay people …”
Lay people CAN’T judge the Pope – God alone can. Catholic Doctrine declares this pope false, but we are not talking about the pope, we are talking about St. Paul’s command to us.
We are still members of the CATHOLIC Church we were baptised into, but you have already agreed that the NO church teaches a doctrine different to that of the Catholic Church, which logically makes it a separate, opposing church. Nobody can reasonably be a member of both of two churches in opposition.
Finally, would you care to answer my question?
“So putting 1-6 together :
Is it fair to say that your worshiping in a non-Catholic church, as denounced by St. Paul, defies Scripture in disregard of St. Paul’s absolutely explicit admonition that you not do so?”
Peter, I meant with NO folks, certainly not heretics or pagans.
Well, Peter, I’m not sure we can agree to disagree here – let’s not whatever we do arrive at a “synthesis”!!!!! I’d have to come over to SA and give you a smack!
Bottom line: we are all trying to articulate truth, in our own way – how happy this should make us! We have 2,000 years of wonderful teaching to draw on.
Any small disagreements we have in wording, tone, or in source material is just a bunch of Catholics being Catholic. I love it!
We also have to remember that not only individuals will be punished for their grave sins – cities, states, and whole nations will pay for their specific crimes. For example, the nation of Canada will pay a price that all citizens will have to suffer (good and evil) because we let our government abolish the abortion law – we now have unfettered abortion from conception to seconds before birth. WE did this as a people and WE will suffer as a people.
NOBODY is as “cool” as you and your strawmen TWN.
We all certainly shall. I think it’s called “public sin”, or something like that. Even those who did not participate bear a sort of communal guilt.
How about murder during birth. That’s also legal in America. My daughter is active in pro-life. She showed me a video on youtube of it being done. It is the worst thing I have ever seen in my entire life.
We don’t know where you got any of this, but we told you we only answered #6 with yes., to show you how silly the question was, and didn’t answer any of the others. We offered you our own questionnaire to make a point. So your above statements about us are false about us in #3 and 5 and therefore your conclusions drawn from them are meaningless. We already answered that final question. We’re sure we worship in the Catholic Church. We have doubts about your situation, because it’s officially in schism.
Go back and read the thread if you have to.
I didn’t mean to upset you. I was trying to have a serious discussion. 🙂 🙂
Here is an interesting article on how Mr. Siscoe plays hopscotch with St. Robert Bellarmine’s writings to suit his own purpose. http://www.fathercekada.com/2014/05/07/bergoglio-hes-got-nothing-to-lose/bellarmine-fraud-copy/