“Kingmaker,” Francis Cardinal Spellman, who ordained and/or consecrated many clerics among the sodomite ranks
By Randy Engel
Four Generations of Clerical Sexual Predators When is Enough, Enough?
Introduction
It’s been an “open secret,” for almost 100 years, that the American hierarchy has been plagued by homosexual/pederast predators within its ranks.
That’s the bad news.
The good news is that the current debacle over the revelations of homosexual tricks turned over by Cardinal “call-me-Uncle Teddy” McCarrick has provided an albeit totally unexpected but welcome opportunity for the handful of decent prelates who still have their religious and moral miters on straight to demonstrate to the long-suffering Catholic laity that they are both willing and able to take the lead in lancing and draining the infectious carbuncles of perversity and immorality that threaten the entire Body and Soul of the Catholic Church, not only in our nation, but around the world.
I think that the Catholic faithful sense that there is much more to the McCarrick case than has yet been revealed by either the Catholic or secular press. And they are correct .
What is the McCarrick Case About?
Clearly, this is not just a story of one isolated prelate’s fall from grace.
It’s the story of an institutionalized and systemic crisis which the Holy See has permitted to fester in the very bosom of Holy Mother Church since the early part of the 20th century.
The McCarrick case is about four generations of homosexual/pederast Catholic bishops and cardinals in AmChurch – McCarrick being part of the third generation, and the homosexual bishops he has consecrated, the fourth generation.
Historically speaking, McCarrick got in on the near ground floor of one of largest and most influential homosexual networks in the Church in modern times – the Cardinal Francis Spellman Network.
There’s an old saying that “the Devil is in the details.” This certainly is true of the McCarrick case, both literally and figuratively.
Let’s review a short but not so sweet summary of McCarrick’s meteoric rise up the clerical ladder which the Catholic and secular news services have, thus far, failed to report.
I have attached a postscript to this article for readers who wish additional information on the Cardinal McCarrick’s background.
The McCarrick Case in Four Sound Bites
- Father McCarrick was ordained by the “Kingmaker,” Cardinal Francis Spellman, Archbishop of New York from 1939 to 1967. “Franny” Spellman, a predatory homosexual prelate, ordained and/or consecrated many young priests who joined the sodomite ranks including McCarrick, George Guilfoyle, Christopher Weldon, Francis Reh and Terence Cooke.
- Monsignor McCarrick served as personal secretary from 1971 to 1977 to homosexual Cardinal Terence Cooke. It was Cooke who consecrated McCarrick an auxiliary bishop. Among the other homosexual bishops consecrated by “Cookie” were Bishop Emerson John Moore, a homosexual drug addict who died alone and destitute of AIDS in September 1995. For the record, Cooke oversaw the suffragan Diocese of Brooklyn where homosexual Bishop Francis Mugavero permitted the St. Matthew Community – a religious community made up of homosexual priests for homosexual priests and their partners – to operate out of his diocese in 1978.
- Cardinal McCarrick, from his earliest days in the priesthood (1958); to his appointment as an auxiliary bishop (1977); to his installation as Bishop of Metuchen (1981); to his appointment as Archbishop of Newark (1986); to his appointment as Archbishop of Washington. D.C. (2000); and his elevation to the cardinalate (2001), was an active homosexual/pederast preying especially on young seminarians and newly-ordained priests.
- Cardinal McCarrick has continued the inter-generational production of sodomites in the American hierarchy by the consecration of at least three priests – one of whom is deceased and two who are currently bishops in good standing.
The Overworld that Protects the Clerical Underworld
As one reads the many press accounts and internet commentaries on the McCarrick case, it seems rather strange that there is any mystery whatsoever surrounding the cardinal’s very real Teflon coating that has protected him from exposure and incarceration for decades.
Why is this?
Perhaps it is necessary to remind oneself that the homosexual underworld, be it clerical or secular, is a world of vice. A world that includes drugs, prostitution, domestic violence, murder, suicide, blackmail, and criminality of all kinds.
As an active homosexual prelate, Cardinal McCarrick has been open to blackmail in various forms by the enemies of the Church for half-a-century.
But blackmail is a two-edged sword and in McCarrick’s case it has worked largely in his favor since the 88-year-old cardinal knows all the details of just about every active homosexual American bishop in the United States (and many at the Vatican) dating back to the Spellman era.
That’s an awful lot of skeletons hiding in the proverbial clerical “gay” closet.
There is no question that there exists today a vast overworld in the Catholic Church, starting at the Vatican, with arms that reach into every diocese in the world. The main function of this overworld is to coverup the scandal-ridden underworld of the homosexual/pederast networks in the Church. The great tragedy is that both the overworld and the underworld are fueled by the long-suffering Catholic laity with the money they toss into the collection basket every week.
You wanted to know how it is possible for McCarrick to have escaped exposure and censure for so long? That’s your answer, like it or not.
Who’s Giving McCarrick Legal Advice? Whose Picking Up the Tab?
One of the little recognized practices of American diocesan lawyers, and lawyers from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops when faced with the prospect of a public “outing” of a homosexual/pederast bishop or cardinal, has been to promise the prelate the best defense that money can buy and continued financial support in exchange for his silence on his fellow homosexual/pederast bishops, cardinals, and clerics at home and abroad.
How else can one explain McCarrick’s totally asinine statement that he “has no recollection,” concerning the sexual abuse of the young altar boy at St. Patrick’s Cathedral that has made recent headlines?
No recollection? Nonsense!
Sexual perverts, especially pederasts, have amazing memories especially as they relate to their early conquests. They relive those experiences over and over in their minds, day in and day out. It’s their way of getting kicks. Pederasts especially savor the look on the face of their victim when the young boy realizes what is being done to him. Now the victim is one of THEM!
Who devised this brilliant strategy for McCarrick?
My guess is that the New York Archdiocese clued McCarrick in the first moment that the now middle-aged victim fingered McCarrick as his abuser, and the cardinal’s attorneys plotted accordingly. Since the victim’s story turned out to be “credible,” McCarrick’s legal counsel no doubt decided that his best bet was not to deny the abuse outright, but to claim that he had “no recollection” of the alleged crime.
After all, the statute of limitations has run out in New York State, so he’s not going to jail any time soon.
And the chances of the “gay friendly” occupant of the Chair of Peter giving McCarrick a choice between defrocking and a life of permanent penance at a traditional monastery constantly surrounded by two monks, one on either side, to monitor the cardinal’s every move lest he attempt to seduce other clerics, is very slim indeed.
Probably, given the short and faulty memory of American Catholics when it comes to the horrific pain and anguish of victims (and their families) of pederasty and homosexual abuse, chances are McCarrick will disappear for a few months from the public limelight and then retire quietly in high style knowing he’ll be protected and kept financially solvent by Church officials in return for his keeping silent to the grave.
Unfortunately for McCarrick, however, there is a Life and Judgement beyond the grave, although his actions demonstrate that he believes in neither. Perhaps one, just one, of his fellow clerics including all those who have feigned “shock” at the recent revelations, will love Cardinal McCarrick enough to remind him of this reality before it is too late.
I pray they do.
But in the meantime, my rosaries and prayers are for the victims of clerical sexual abuse – past, present and future. And future victims there will be along with corresponding devastated families until faithful Catholics get justice and accountability from the hierarchy and the Holy See or God intervenes directly – whichever comes first.
– The End–
Postscript:
When I started my research on the homosexual network in AmChurch in 1989 for The Rite of Sodomy – Homosexuality and the Roman Catholic Church, I began with a short list of homosexual prelates I needed to investigate – Cardinal William O’Connell of Boston, Cardinal Francis Spellman of New York, Cardinal John Wright, Prefect of the Congregation for the Clergy, Bishop Donald Wuerl of Pittsburgh, Cardinal Joseph Bernardin of Chicago, Archbishop Rembert Weakand, O.S.B. of Milwaukee, and Archbishop Cardinal Theodore McCarrick of Newark.
By the time The Rite of Sodomy was published in 2006, that list had grown to more than 40 American homosexual prelates and superiors of male religious orders.
Below are a few excerpts on Cardinal McCarrick taken from taken from the updated five- volume set of The Rite of Sodomy. Footnotes are provided in the original text:
American Hierarchy Denies Existence of A Clerical Homosexual Network
On April 23-24, 2002, Pope John Paul II called an Extraordinary Meeting of American Cardinals in Rome to discuss the clerical sexual abuse problem in the United States. Bishop Wilton Gregory, President of the USCCB, was also in attendance.
A press conference at the Vatican Press Office was held on the evening of the close of the two-day session with the Holy Father. In attendance were Cardinals Theodore McCarrick and James Francis Stafford, Bishop Gregory representing the USCCB, and Vatican lay press officer, Dr. Joaquin Navarro-Valls.
During the news conference, Cardinal McCarrick, Archbishop of Washington, D.C. was asked by Christopher Ferrara, who along with John Vennari was covering the story for Catholic Family News, the following question pertaining to the problem of pederasty and homosexuality in the Catholic priesthood:
Nearly every single case has involved an adolescent and does not constitute a true case of pedophilia. So, we’re dealing with the acts of homosexual males who could not control their predilection. To avoid what would be a perpetual bumper crop of this type of scandal, is the hierarchy in North America going to enforce the Vatican’s [1961] Instruction that homosexual males simply should not be ordained?
Cardinal McCarrick responded:
I think certainly every seminary in the country has a program that says, “anyone who is an active homosexual should never be admitted.” I don’t know of any bishop in the country who would allow someone who had been actively involved in homosexuality to enter a seminary. I don’t think any bishop would allow anyone who was actively engaged in heterosexual activity right before they went in to enter the seminary. We believe in celibacy. It’s not the easiest road in today’s crazy world, but we believe in celibacy. We believe that if you practice celibacy with all your heart, with all your love, you can be free to serve God’s people, to serve God in a beautiful way. If someone gets into a seminary, and that question is not asked, that’s a terrible thing. But any seminary that I know, you say, “have you been acting celibately up until now?”
[Note: The 1961 Instruction, Religiosorum institutio on the “Careful Selection And Training Of Candidates For The States Of Perfection And Sacred Orders” was the work of the Sacred Congregation for Religious in the Holy Office. It provided that “Advancement to religious vows and ordination should be barred to those who are afflicted with evil tendencies to homosexuality or pederasty, since for them the common life and priestly ministry would constitute serious dangers.” This was the paragraph of the 1961 Instruction that Mr. Ferrara was referring to in his questioning of Cardinal McCarrick at the April 2002 Rome press conference.]
A Reality Check for Cardinal McCarrick
Finally, let us return to Cardinal McCarrick and his performance at the April 2002 Vatican press conference.
Young Ted, an only child, lost his father at the age of three. He was raised by his doting mother, who worked as an artist model and later in an auto-parts factory.
In his junior year, he was expelled from Xavier High School in Manhattan, ostensibly for truancy, but, thanks to family connections, he was taken in by Fordham Prep, another Jesuit high school in the Bronx.
Cardinal Spellman ordained Father McCarrick on May 31, 1951. He served as secretary to Cardinal Cooke from 1971 to 1977, when Cooke made him an Auxiliary Bishop of New York.
New York insiders glibly refer to McCarrick by his feminine name “Blanche” and Vatican officials have long been aware of his penchant for young handsome seminarians. McCarrick has ordained at least three homosexual bishops.
Yet, here is a man who the Holy See permitted to play the fool before an international audience of reporters on the question of the ordination of homosexual candidates to the priesthood and the existence of a homosexual network within the Church.
How far has the rot gone? All the way to the top.
Epilogue
Eighteen months have gone by since the manuscript of The Rite of Sodomy passed from my hands to the printers, and many important changes have occurred in the life of the Church, not the least of which is the election of a new pope. Pope John Paul II died on April 2, 2005. The former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has ascended the throne of Saint Peter as Pope Benedict XVI.
There have also been other important events connected with many personages featured in this book. …
On January 10, 2006, attorney John A. Aretakis filed an amended civil suit on behalf of Father Robert Hoatson in the United States District Court of New York. Fr. Hoatson, a priest of the Newark Archdiocese is suing Archbishop John Myers of Newark, Cardinal Edward Egan of New York, Bishop Howard Hubbard of Albany, the Christian Brothers and others for aiding and abetting known criminal clerical pederasts. Hoatson, an alleged victim of sexual abuse by the Christian Brothers, identified Myers, Egan and Hubbard as “active homosexuals.” Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, although not a defendant in the suit, is also identified as an “active homosexual.”
There are so many.
I remember in the 80’s, wondering along with my husband, what is going on with this Church, something is very wrong, but what is it. After a few years, our own pastor was removed for misappropriation of parish money. The young priest who lived with him in the rectory ran the local AIDS ministry, and wore street clothes and drove a convertible. Let’s face facts. They are everywhere. I wouldn’t have a clue as to how to get them out, since this goes right up to the pope. He’s certainly at least gay-friendly, let’s put it that way. There is no impetus to do anything about these men, if there were, it would have been done when the Boston pederasty scandal broke. They weren’t serious about it, even we knew that. If you are serious about it, you state the fact that no homosexuals will enter seminary from here on in, and that any homosexuals present will be laicized. It didn’t happen.
I don’t know all the details of the experience, frankly I don’t want to know, but I doubt the seminarians molested were not already open to homosexual activity. A child is not capable of protecting themselves from a predator, this is why we have parents, to keep us safe as best they can, and know who we are with at all times, but a teenager or young man is not a child. A teenager, certainly a man the age of a seminarian, can certainly defend himself against a predator. I note sometimes the incidents of “abuse” happen more than once. Even the victim of McCarrick, claims to have been abused more than once. How is that possible.
What I am saying is that if we were serious about it, homosexual seminarians would be detected and asked to leave, or men with a certain openness to homosexual activity. This gets tricky. But in this case they were cultivated and groomed.
To my mind, a real predator is a man who diddles little boys. The John Jay study indicated that 81% (probably more) of the victims of priests were boys between I think, 11 and 17, post-adolescent males. After the age of 17, 18, you are talking about a man who should be able to defend himself, certainly is in the prime of physical strength, and a good punch in the eye would handle an old fart.
I wouldn’t know how to get these monster perverts out of the church. I leave it to God to either get them out, or let the church go down in flames (no pun intended). I absolutely feel the church is about to go through some agonies, because the people were asleep, but now we are awake. We don’t wish to subsidize apostasy and sodomy, not at all. Of course the real money for the Bishops today is in bringing in Muslims to Europe and the US, that’s where the big money is, but if I were them I wouldn’t count on President Trump keeping that going forever. He’ll get around to it, and that’s what the Bishops really fear.
Chugging down the track Guilfoyle who was known as “Queen of the Fairies” in Camden Diocese followed by McHugh ,the hx who made it easy for a lavender clique to flourish there also made the filthy mouthed Checcio his Chancelor ,who is now Bishop of Metuchen , but not before he became a Rector of a Rome seminary in order to pass on his knowledge. Like a huge diabolical perverted octopus the tentacles and the ink have blanketed the church everywhere.
McHugh and Bevilaqua worked in tandem transferring a Fr John Conner back and forth between Pittsburgh and Camden Diocese . McHugh also used a chain circle transfer of perps between the Diocese of Camden to Providence , RI to Diocese in Ireland and back again. Steve Rubino Esq attempted to launch a Rico Case to end that in the early nineties. Meanwhile the Vatican lauded him as the Pro Life Bishop for the Church.
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news3/2002_04_29_Patterson_PriestLent_Patrick_Weaver_1.htm
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news5/1994_11_01_Graham_SexAbuse.htm
I am reposting my comments from the first article on this McCarrick sodomite:
If the hetero priests of the NO were real men and not spineless jelly fish, they would not tolerate sodomites in their ranks, bishop or not. They would rebel and would be perfectly justified under Divine Law to have absolutely no association with sodomites. We are not talking about the kind of human weakness and sin common to all. We are talking about sodomy. A sin so disgusting and abominable, that God Himself has told us that it cries out for vengeance. The fact that the NO hetero “priests” tolerate these perverts in their ranks is a testimony to their lack of faith and/or cowardice.
Comrades, the Great Stalin’s personal secretaries Masha, Dasha, Sasha and Natasha have pointed out to the Leader of the Groaning Proletariat that the sheer poofiness of the Catholic Church is anti-ecumenical. Which self-respecting Leninist would want to be in communion with a set of cassock-lifters who prey on young Komsomol members? The GULAG is too good for such types.
I totally agree. No amount of self justification ( for the good of the church) would allow me to remain a cleric supporting my employer’s false image with these perverts.
The best way to describe this is to make an analogy to an ancestral family tree .They recruited, targeted, molested and Ordained then Consecrated and the pattern repeated and spread. So much for Right Disposition and so much for Sanctifying Grace for the Church. Absolutely DIABOLICAL.
Hence , the trait of evil hatred that has infected the entire institutional church……
This was a super article Randy to explain how it all has come about to the average lay person ! First shine the light on it and then maybe we can find away to root it all out and sweepoutthefilth.
I was very surprised to read that the homosexual network went back almost 100 years. Thought it was only an outgrowth of Vatican II.
Bella Dodd was busy planting on Communist Party recruits who were homosexuals into the seminaries back in the late twenties and into the early thirties. She got over 1100 assigned well before 1939 after her conversion and her repentance trips around the nation on speaking tour to Catholics warning them of what she had done . It was in 1939 during these speaking engagements that she also admitted to answering to 4 or 5 Communist Party Cardinals in the Vatican who gave her the assignment.
Of course: the Bella Dodd Caper. Thank you.
No, it makes sense to me that the horror of Vatican II didn’t happen overnight. Pius X warned us about the Modernists in his encyclical, Pascendi, in 1907.
Why is everyone acting as though these criminals are CATHOLIC?
They’re the infiltrating monsters known as communists and Freemasons, who are both hell-bent on DESTRUCTION, with the usurping anti-pope-forerunner-to-the-antichrist orchestrating much more than any of us realizes.
But who am I to judge?
I don’t doubt the sorrow and repentance of Bella Dodd, but how do you reverse this damage? It is like ridding the house of cockroaches after you have imported barrels of cockroaches and let them loose in your basement. The “catholic” church needs to be fumigated.
God bless you, Randy Engel! You have done a tremendous job of exposing the rot and filth that is present in the modern Church. It has become a homosexuals playground. It’s sickening to see the state of the Church today. Surly, we are witnessing the passion of the Church. I personally believe that the only way our beloved Church will get back to being holy is through an intervention of God. May it come soon.
Yes he did , but by this time they realized who fomented the the French Revolution and Monarchies in all once Catholic nations were frightened knowing they were targeted. The Czar is said to have written to the Vatican having seen the writing on the wall as his own court was becoming infested with Freemasonic thought. After the Bolsehevic Revolution Russian people and nearby nations were surprised to see Jewish elites placed in positions of governing power there. 1907 was about the time my own RC Catholic Grandparents decided to escape Lithuania. They saw the movement against Catholicism . Religion was becoming the enemy under the guise of modern enlightenment.
So how do we eradicate it? Our Holy Mother came to tell us in 1917 .
We must pray the rosary since petitions pleas and everything else had failed to move the Vatican. Instead they have placed the heretical cherry on the top of the filthy sundae ……..and unless lightening hits the Borg directly or the Holy Ghost makes a personal appearance in front of his nose holding the pen for him………nothing will change.
you HAVE to understand the real history behind Freemasonry and the connection to B’nai Brith and the communist/freemasonic shared umbilical cord. Otherwise, it is just disjointed pieces of a puzzle.
My family became very integrated into the Vaganova Ballet world, meeting luminaries in the Russian Soviet Ballet and when they came here freely under the so called Perestrika after the so called Fall of Communism. Watching the Artistic Director bless himself and learning from the Ukranian Catholics he was a Jew and important in the Communist Party , i started to ask questions . They explained you never got anywhere in the soviet Union unless you belonged to the Party and rose in the ranks. Here we were, discovering that over 6000 former soviet citizens had come into Philadelphia in 3 months through a Jewish organization in D.C. in the early nineties. Former Russian soviet dissidents who had escaped Communism , knew who these people were. I asked several of these newly settled “former” communists if they were really Jewish and they laughed telling me they said they were for all the benefits including thirty thou per family
to resettle and enrollment in Hebrew schools because ,”The American public school system is known to us how bad it is.”
https://www.henrymakow.com/ballet_-_memories_of_russian_j.html
again …….sorry for typos. Posted this on the fly……..
Look, the way to sort this out is obvious.
Sodomites love wealth and luxury. There is more than sufficient of both in the West where this plague has taken such a deep root in the Church.
There are so many elements to this, but here are the essential ones:
1. Restore monastic discipline, including the ideal of poverty. The praying of the Divine Office as it was a few hundred years ago is the aim: Gregorian Chant in Latin, no internet, TV or mobile phones. Hard physical work. The restoration of authentic monasticism and the formation of monks steeped in HOLINESS is the bedrock.
2. The Novus Ordo has to go – it must be abrogated fully and most solemnly, along with the new forms of all the other Sacraments. The most strict restoration of the Old Mass, worldwide. Any priests or Bishops who work against that – laicisation, without prevarication and without pity. With the restoration of the Old Mass comes the doctrinal and theological victory of authentic Catholicism and the death of this cuckoo, false, anti-Church of ecumenism, liberal protestantism and Modernism.
3. The closure of all Seminaries except those belonging to the Traditionalist Orders. These of course to be massively expanded. This naturally means there will be a fifty to seventy-five year period of restoration during which the number of priests worldwide will drastically reduce for some years. But this is the price to pay to populate the world once again with priests according to the Order of Melchisadek, not the Order of Liberace: priests who sacrifice for sin and for sinners, not ‘preside’ over some damned ‘assembly’; priests who preach Jesus Christ crucified, not Jesus Christ Superstar.
While I completely trust Randy Engle’s journalistic integrity, it would be very helpful in this article to give some substantiating evidence as to why all of these Bishops have been classified as active homosexuals. These are sweeping characterizations which need substantiation for purposes of credibility when sharing this information with others. I would be grateful so for some more background in this matter on how it was known that Spellman and many of the Bishops he consecrated were active homosexuals.
Oh and do not forget Our Holy Mother showed Sr Lucia a vision reminding her ,”Look what happened to the King of France.” The Frenck court had become fllled with Freemaons, our own Benjamin Franklin among them much to the angst of his own wife and daughters left here in Philadelphia to fight off the British themselves. A few years later , the French Revolution and Louis and Marie Antoinette were guillotined by the French mobs who were ginned up by the Freemasons. Equality Liberty and Fraternity their battle cry and still the motto of Freemasonry.
Louis did not perform the requested Consecration to the Sacred Heart until it was too late…….history repeats itself.
Look him up………ther’s lenty of history on the Internet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Spellman
Homosexuality
John Cooney, one of Spellman’s biographers, cited four interviewees who stated that Spellman was homosexual. Cooney was convinced of the veracity of the claims and stated unequivocally, “For years rumors abounded about Cardinal Spellman being a homosexual.”[16]
The journalist Michelangelo Signorile, who describes Spellman as “one of the most notorious, powerful and sexually voracious homosexuals in the American Catholic Church’s history,”[36] reported that Cooney’s manuscript, The American Pope, initially contained interviews with several people with personal knowledge of Spellman’s homosexuality, including researcher and historian C. A. Tripp. According to Signorile, the Catholic Church pressured Cooney’s publisher, Times Books, to reduce the four pages discussing Spellman’s sexuality to a single paragraph.[36] Both Signorile and John Loughery[37] cite a story suggesting that Spellman was sexually active and carrying on a relationship with a male member of the chorus in the Broadway revue One Touch of Venus.[36]
Additionally, Curt Gentry, biographer of J. Edgar Hoover, says that Hoover’s files also had “numerous allegations that Spellman was a very active homosexual.”[38]
Spellman and Bishop Sheen were notorious enemies. I hope Randy would elaborate on this.
Dear Ave Crux – The 5-volume set of The Rite of Sodomy contains over 1,300 endnotes which clearly document the charges against Spellman and other prelates mentioned in the article. See http://www.newengelpublishing.com.
The fact that The Rite of Sodomy has been blacklisted by all secular papers in the United States and all diocesan papers also, but not challenged in the courts, is one indirect way of demonstrating the truthfulness of the charges.
Regarding the charges against Spellman, after the book appeared in 2006, I received additional confirmation of his homosexuality by a number of individuals including a former law enforcement officer from NYC.
If you are truly interested in verifying the charges, invest in the book which has never been dated, but remains as fresh and informative as the day it was published.
Best regards, Randy Engel
All commendable goals, but a lost cause. Only when people realize our situation is utterly hopeless and STILL hold on to the Faith, will things start to improve, by God’s mysterious designs – imho.
People already do realise this – my parents did fifty years ago. These people are called ‘Traditionalists’. Who are the people you are referring to John?
@sweep: You said this:
–
“After the Bolsehevic Revolution Russian people and nearby nations were surprised to see Jewish elites placed in positions of governing power there.”
–
I am at the point now where I believe that was the entire purpose (even if it was not conscious on the part of the revolutionaries) of the so-called “Russian Revolution”. The ethnic Russians held all the best positions in society, and a people in a hurry to advance couldn’t wait until natural selection, so to speak, chose the best from among the “chosen” to add to Russian Culture. So they fomented a revolution to replace all the ethnic Russian elites in positions of power in one fell swoop.
–
This wasn’t necessarily their own idea, though. as the French Revolution and Empire established a new paradigm that overthrew a hidebound class system and selected for advancement citizens from all ranks of society based on aptitude instead of social rank.
A healthy, holy society would mandate the execution of both sodomites and their supporters in accord with Romans 1:32.
Could it be that Sheen knew he was a stinking sodomite?
St Cyprian,
From first hand observation of members of the soviet communist party system that had prestigious positions employed by the government , were persons with no morality at all. That is what Marxist atheistic communism fosters No God , no morals. No checks and balances. No free press or permitted outrage from the public. Pedophilia was rampant as were abortions and the children who were left in the homes for orphans were in state run hell holes condemned to be physically abused. These were the type of people who become the leaders in soviet communist nations. Ruthless people who spied and reported fabricated charges of treason on neighbors and even relatives to get even for something or climb up a ladder in the Party.
Why is it that the current state of affairs in the clerical system Catholicism is suffering from now , displays these same traits?
Believe it or not they all know to one degree or another .
Work anywhere long enough and eventually you know who is who in your corporation.
If they were ordained in the old Rite by a Bishop consecrated in the old Rite, the Sacraments they perform are valid. Period.
It’s God’s sanctifying/sacramental grace that’s given through sinners, not theirs.
Please get that straight.
The new rites are a whole other kettle of fish…
Good to see you here again, Stalin!
I had an elderly relative whose family escaped from Communist Russia, And he remained a hater of Jews until his dying day because of what they did to his beloved country. Dont be under any illusions about who is behind it or why, and that includes what they pulled of in Rome between 1962 to 1965.
How can we hope to change any of this kind of thing without Our Lady’s intervention?
The suffering is unimaginable.
https://rcf.org/pdfs/Hoatson.pdf
Ask Michael Matt and Michael Voris or Bp Fellay. It irks me too when I hear these heretics refered to as Catholic.
That was my point I made before. How could so called “good” priests continue business as usual knowing there was a stinking sodomite in their ranks?
Archbishop Francis J. Spellman of New York City, the most powerful prelate in America during the war…..
The Americanist Vision since 1932 (Spellman and Cushing: Patriotic Prelates of American Liberty)
http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=search&subsection=list_results&s_query=Americanism&next_articles=21
Exactly TPS. There have always been sinners in the Church and in the clergy. No sin can invalidate the Sacraments.
This is the “church” that Bishop Fellay called the “official” church. Is he blind? Why does he seek “recognition” or “regulation”. Are his priests lambs being led to the slaughter? The SSPX is in danger.
Remember Archbishop Sheen did censored Dodd from publicly revealing the names of communist party members she assigned to seminaries and into the priesthood.
Why is everyone concerned about the big picture? Only God can straighten this all out
Now that we are beginning to understand the hows and whys , we have been given a clearer understanding for prayer intentions.
Who can deny the need for more Rosaries?
my2cents….follow the money !!! http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-rothschild-gutmann-money-behind.html
Tom,
You’re not the only one that has this reaction. Steve does a good job expressing it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXzXYjnGd9c
I especially like his physical demonstration how to deal with it.
BERGOGLIO ENTANGLED IN ANOTHER COVER-UP ?
https://traditioninaction.org/bev/220bev06_29_2018.htm
I think the laity is really getting angry, I also think the Vatican never counted on the power of the Internet even though Fr James Martin did.
I understand the canonical legalities of a valid priesthood . But how can it be denied we are witnessing a lack of Sanctifying Grace in the Church and the world?
If the Sacraments were truly instituted by Jesus Christ to provide Sanctifying Grace to resist temptation, then something is missing because the priesthood is certainly being devastated.
Both the video and comments are interesting .
http://voxcantor.blogspot.com/
Sweep. Do you receive the Eucharist? Do you still sin? Why is that any different than a priest sinning even though he has received the Sacrament of Holy Orders?
And I am assuming that all of these Sacraments are offered by valid priests and bishops via valid Catholic rites (aka the Old, Pre-PaulVI Rites).
Maybe I am misunderstanding you but you seem hell bent on suggesting that there is something wrong in the Church simply because there is a preponderance of sinners.
Perhaps I should have said, “only when a -sufficient number- of people realize the situation is hopeless”. And I mean hopeless in terms of the Church reforming itself along the lines of the points in your original comment.
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As Sister Lucy said in her last public interview in 1957 with Fr. Augustin Fuentes:
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“Father, we should not wait for a call to the world from Rome on the part of the Holy Father to do penance. Nor should we wait for a call for penance to come from the Bishops in our Dioceses, nor from our Religious Congregations. No, Our Lord has often used these means, and the world has not paid heed. So, now each one of us must begin to reform himself spiritually. Each one has to save not only his own soul, but also all the souls that God has placed on his pathway. ”
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/g23ht_Interview.html
The reason why you are witnessing the lack of sanctifying grace in the world is because what appears to be the Catholic Church is not the Catholic Church. It is an imposter church with a fake sodomitic priesthood, a fake new mass, fake new ordination rites, and false theology. It is incapable of giving the world sanctifying grace because only the Catholic Church can provide that and the NO V2 sect is not the Catholic Church.
Wow , two very different replies.
2 Vermont I do not want to be like the recent past poster no longer with us so I will not insist you tell me where you find these exceptional priests. For me , the wonderful priests I knew are now deceased or retired.
Tom A , I happen to agree with your analysis of the situation more.
I just skimmed through this document. I probably should not have. There are no words for the wickedness and evil these prelates have unleashed. And so many souls are at stake. Where is the asteroid? Kyrie eleison.
Let us posit that the sacraments are indeed valid. However, if most people, including pervert and sodomite priests, are receiving Holy Communion in the state of mortal sin, then there cannot be any sanctifying grace in these people. The sacrilegious Holy Communions only deepen the state of sin in these people. Also, remember that these terrible sins against nature bring with them the punishment of blindness. (See Romans, chapter 1.) God bless you all.
That is correct.
In one case , an Archamandrite priest did us a favor after we complained to our Bishop about our pastor who denied the Real Presence in a homily. Since the priest was a Melkite ( and bi ritual which meant he served Latin Rite parishes too) , the Archimandrite, having also been a Melkite , who knew the Melkite Bishop well, gave him a call. The priest did not have his contract renewed with our Eastern Catholic Rite but the Archimandrite priest told me ,”There was a problem with his Ordination.” Glad to see him gone, I never questioned that statement. Too bad. I would like to know what kind of problem with his Ordination ? He had NO idea how to hear a Confession or even what the prayer of Absolution was.
Someone didn’t care.
2 Vermont, in answer to your question , yes I am a sinner BUT I always examine my conscience and made sure never to receive Our Lord while in the state of mortal sin.
Sadly, I do not believe many even know what mortal sin is anymore.
Lake Erie , In Skojak’s video on vox cantoris today ,he repeats the same that Robert Hoatson states in the document . I personally have heard this from priests and I know Mrs Engel has many times over also .
I certainly hope that the vast amount of Catholic laity also wakes up to understand this hideous reality.
Just my opinion but the SSPX is showing itself to be just another Catholic sect, and another worthless one at that. I have lost all admiration of them due to their silence and now, capitulation to Bergolio’s Rome. With friends like this who needs enemies.
Dear Evangeline,
With ‘Catholics’ like you who needs enemies!
If it wasn’t for the SSPX, you and all of us would be today all Protestants, playing in the playground of the Novus Ordo, dialoguing with the heretics, schismatics, Jews and every stripe…….swaying to Kumbalaja.
Hold your tongue, lest it will deceive you……
From Poland ,
FYI the SSPX has had their share of sodomites too.
Evangeline certainly has the right to her opinion which I have heard expressed by quite a few others.
My take on the situation in the Church is that it is rooted in the apparent fact that there are many Catholics who think they have the faith but don’t – mainly because they have been infected in some way by the major error of Vatican II – its attack on the unique nature of Our Lord’s Church.
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This is manifested in several ways in the documents – the sects have been used as means of salvation; Nostrae Aetate on the jews; ambiguous statements that imply the muslims worship the same god as Catholics, etc. It seems that the Almighty has taken mistaken “Catholics” at their belief – if you don’t believe the Church is unique, then you have no need of it!
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How many people do you know who claim to be “Catholic” believe some variation of “all people who have been superficially ‘nice’ to me in social settings” go to heaven?
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I contrast this with the Athanasian Creed and even VII in Lumen Gentium 14 which stated:
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“This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”
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Notwithstanding Lumen Gentium 14 the heretical interpretations of apparently heterodox ambiguities of VII have prevailed in the minds of many so-called “Catholics”. This is fundamental. That is why it strikes me as strange to believe that the bishops of the Church can right the ship when so many of them are heretics in this regard since they deny the unique nature of Our Lord’s Church. Didn’t a potential convert from Lutheranism claim that she was counseled by the then-Cardinal Ratzinger NOT to convert to Catholicism but to remain a Lutheran?
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I believe that if I know as a matter of fact that the unique nature of Our Lord’s Church has become known to a non-Catholic, and that person did not enter the Church before the end of his life that person is not saved. I do not deny that subjectively the person may be saved in a way known only to that person and the Almighty. But absent such circumstances – the person remained subjectively non-Catholic in the same manner that person appeared to me objectively to remain a non-Catholic – that person is not saved.
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It seems that many Catholics only became “bothered” when Catholic sexual morality was attacked by the hierarchy. Would that they be as bothered by every attack on the faith, and be outraged by foundational attacks on the faith!
and besides what and how does the SSPX plan on screening their applicants? Will they be told specifically , no sodomites allowed? They didn’t do it in Winona .
Tradition doesn’t only mean the Traditional Mass and Sacraments , it means the traditional belief in chastity too.
Women aren’t the only temptresses either….apparently young men and boys are too. Totally DISGUSTING.
http://callmejorgebergoglio.blogspot.com/2018/06/bp-fellay-discusses-fsspxs-desire-to.html
Evangeline, just what do you expect from Bishop Fellay? Please be realistic. You have a Priestly Fraternity of around 1,000 people including Brothers and nuns walking a razor-edge between their position and the heretical street thug and all his minions in Rome. For some bizarre reason Bergoglio has given them some room to operate: this makes the razor-edge even more difficult to walk. It’s a nearly impossible situation to navigate as the storm of wind from hell heightens to its maximum: it’s not the SSPX’s role to save the Church, but Christ’s. It has been, and is, the SSPX’s role to save the Mass and the priesthood. Those responsibilities it has met magnificently. Do not load onto their shoulders a responsibility they cannot possibly meet.
Thank you Great Stalin, you’re a wise man.
For the SSPX has been the only witness for decades, of what the Church always was, believed and lived……..are they perfect, NO!, for only God is perfect!
@sweepoutthefilth,
You should have been working for “National Enquirer”……
I believe the sacraments are still valid. The False Prophet [Francis] needs to significantly alter the words that confect the Holy Eucharist in order to bring about the “abomination of desolation” and to usher in the reign of the Antichrist. He can not come to power until Our Lord is no longer present in most of the tabernacles throughout the world.
Maybe I’m missing it, but what two very different replies? Be clear which ones because it is hard to find them with this layout.
Hmm.. I think the way I worded this may be the reason for sweep’s confusion. When I say “I am assuming these sacraments are offered by valid priests and bishops….”, I am saying that what I said just before that only applies IF these are valid priests, etc. When we partake of valid sacraments the fact that we sin does not take away from their validity. I am talking, AGAIN, about the VALIDITY of a Sacrament not our worthiness to partake of it. The issue we have is that most of these priests and bishops aren’t even valid priests and bishops. The rites CHANGED in 1968. And if they are not valid priests and bishops then their Sacraments aren’t valid. The issue isn’t that these men sin. They have always sinned. The issue is that they can’t confect true Sacraments, but that is due to the rites themselves, not their demeanor. I am fairly certain that Tom and I agree on this.
From Poland. “The National Enquirer” ?
I was asked by the SSPX to work for them . I did for a short while ,having met one of their late vocation Novices , a former nurse they used as a nurse at their girls summer camp and I also met quite a few priests .
These priests were seriously lacking in education and extremely immature middle aged men as were the nuns who, I found inflicted with pre suppositions concerning everyone outside their small minded worlds.
The thirteen year old girls at their Summer Camp were subjected to stories of girls impregnated out of wedlock including one they were told hung herself at the Ridgefield Retreat House.Girls from one family dressed exactly like they came right off the set of “Little House on the Prairie” , advised the priest on the other girls attending the Camp.Having been asked to sit in and listen to what could only be described as adolescent gossip and jealousy being given as trusted advice to the priest about other children attending the
retreat/camp ,was shockingly irresponsible to me on the part of the priest. The camp nurse / novice confided how she suffered from being accused of committing abortions because she once worked for the Peace Corps by the younger unworldly wise nuns , something she never witnessed much less assisted with.
I am sorry but your golden calf of ideal traditional Catholicism is badly tarnished with seriously immature uneducated priests and nuns. As I said before, we heard homilies praising Hitler as the savior of Catholic art, how women should not have higher education and refrain from employment or driving a car. That’s fine if the church supports widows and orphans but to date I do not believe the SSPX does.
Maybe the chapels suffice for fulfilling Obligatory Mass but other than that, I would caution anyone from getting involved any deeper with the Society.
Too many children have died at SSPX Camps including in Europe and fanatical parents have defended the irresponsible priests whose actions were directly responsible. Fr Cottard was sentenced to jail time. Fr Hewko’s outings sent children to the hospital and boys drowned in the Missouri River , the one belonging to the society hailed as a martyr while his friend who drowned with him and was not in the SSPX was not.
The SSPX is NOT in any way the Traditional Catholic Faith I was raised in. Should I go on about the sodomites in their ranks OR the pro Vichey historical nazi rhetoric?
2 Vermont,
Your initial response prior to your follow up amended post vs Tom’s . Having clarified it , I believe we can all agree on the subject of the diminished Sanctifying Grace for and in the world.
I hold the Hierarchy more responsible than the confused sheep.
To whom has been given more authority is also given more responsibility.
Personally and historically I also heartily agree with Dowd’s response on the vox cantoris’ site featuring Skojaks appropriate male response to the sodomite infestation in the clerical ranks.
Or Richard, just musing here
Is the abomination of desolation sitting in the Holy Place where it ought naught be a pro sodomite Pope? Sodomy is oft described as an abomination before God in the Scriptures. Francis seems to worship at the altar of the UN by agreeing with all their globalist and one world religion thought.
I believe the AntiChrist as the Apostles stated, is already in the world , maybe now even in the flesh of one man . I do not necessarily believe he will be a Pope or a priest though.
From Poland, Should I start here and work my way through with factual links as to what I know and experienced within the SSPX? Or would you rather ignore their flaws and attack anyone else with a contrary opinion to yours about the Society?
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/oct/26/coeur-dalene-man-jailed-on-1-million-bond-suspecte/
https://cruxnow.com/global-church/2017/04/05/report-charges-cover-traditionalist-society/
I will tell you what I DON”T and DIDN”T EXPECT Great Stalin and From Poland,
I do not expect sodomite priests and camp counselors within the SSPX trolling for victims and counting on pious trad parents afraid to speak out.
I did not and still do not expect to listen to homilies praising the glories of Hitler.
I did not expect a priest to announce he is ONLY listening to boys and men in the Confessional and then throw a little girl out in tears when she and her parents came in after the announcement. ( which was just too weird in and of itself).
I did not expect to get a call from another family after hosting the priest for dinner at their home and complaining their twenty something son in law was hit on with a rub on his posterior when the priest thought no one was looking.
I did not expect to have to contact the descendants of St Thomas More and report the false relics Fr Angles left to St Mary’s College after doing research for a truly educated REAL priest.
I did not expect to find that not only was ArchBishop LeFebvere consecrated a Bishop by the Rosecrucian Mason, Cdl Lienart , but was also Ordained by him and then to read on the “Angelus” site that they thought Lienart was not a Freemason till after he Ordained him.
I did not expect to find out ArchBishop LeFebvre was the Grand Master of the Knights de Chevaliers of Notre Dame but also that they supported a Nazi ( Paul Touvier) on the run for forty years with a monthly stipend until he was finally arrested hiding out in the SSPX monastery in Nice , France.
I did not expect to discover the Hitler Youth was the model for SSPX “Commando” boys groups until several wise father’s accompanied them on trips and saw the template being used first hand. Nor did I expect to see busy mother’s of sspx boys busily sewing and furnishing clothing modeled after the Vichey Malice Nazi uniforms.
I did not expect to find out Fr Urrtigroity was NOT thrown out of their seminary because he was a known homosexual but because he was found to have been planning his own group outside the Society .
I did not expect to see in print a misinterpreted account of those facts.
There is something very wrong when a priestly fraternity offer what they call Traditional Catholicism and blend it with historical French pro nazi politics.
Yes 2VT, I agree with you. A valid minister using valid matter and the proper form signifies his intent and thus effects a valid sacrament regardless of the state of his soul. No grace is given however if the recipient is an unrepentant sinner.
Richard, if you look closely at the Novus Ordo you will see that what was once the Canon leading up to the consecration, is now a eucharistic prayer leading up to an institution narrative. The form and intent have been changed and this renders them ambigious and doubtful at best and totally invalid in the worst case. But if you believe Vatican 2 is Catholic and thus Montini was a pope and had the authority from God to change the Church, then you should stick with the NO because the TLM is mired in the past.
The SSPX in the USA did have in the early days one or two strange characters, no doubt.
My constant experience of them (Portugal and the UK) is of high education, great pragmatic good sense, a high degree of holiness and a good sense of humour.
If you are expecting every one of them to be Padre Pio, then of course you’ll be disappointed.
From Poland , o in one comment several blog posts back you stated you had the “Gift of Discernment”and took another swipe at my veracity aside from this
“@sweepoutthefilth,You should have been working for “National Enquirer”……
I would ask you this. did an SSPX priest tell you this ?
Simply because it sounds more charismatic than Catholic .
I have been a paid researcher, invited as a speaker at several Catholic meetings , spent years as a reference person for Catholic home schooling parents, proofread for Catholic authors and requested by priests to help them with public presentations. Yes I have known and done research for many excellent Catholic and secular authors and journalists.
To date , I have been not invited to work for the “National Enquirer” and would decline anyway.
I am simply a cradle Catholic raised in the Traditional Catholic Faith looking always for God’s Truth in a very confused world.
Great Stalin, the incidents in Idaho and in Europe with the several clerical pederasts Williamson was asked about was NOT in the early days ,nor is the Resistance breakaway’s affiliation with sodomites like one Fr Marshal Roberts.
Urrutigoity still runs freely about in S America as a priest in good standing.
bishop Fellays pandering to Borgolio’s Vatican is also of serious concern as is reports I have been given by rectory employees concerning a NO sodomite
( neo trad credibly accused priest who has a boyfriend) meeting with a young SSPX priest. “We have more in common than you know.”, was the response given to one employee at the rectory when she questioned the pastor on his dinner companion.
It would appear they are still quite confused in their own clerical brotherhood.
Great Stalin in answer to your comment below.
Early Days? fr Angles as I understand is currently employed by Bishop Fellay as his Canon Law consultant.
That would be the same Fr Angles with the extensive list of personal relics donated to St Mary’s College which included the false skull of St Thomas More and if I recall correctly, the hem of St Jospeh’s cloak. The same Fr Angles who bragged his family were close to Leni Riefenstahl Hitler’s filmographer and whose parents also purchased Hitler’s Mercedes at auction.
Seems some of those “characters” are still quite active in the SSPX.
No not expecting any of them to be Padre Pio , just not expecting to see pro Hitler Nazi liars and frauds rising to the top !
From Poland and Great Stalin, 2 Cents did post an exceptional link you should read before attacking anyone who disagrees with your opines on the quality of the the SSPX
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-rothschild-gutmann-money-behind.html
Apologies, it was Ock who posted this excellent link for 2 Cents to read.
Controlled opposition anyone?
I too find it odd that now under this Borgoglio, Bishop Fellay seeks acceptance and even the founding of an SSPX seminary in of all places , ROME.
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-rothschild-gutmann-money-behind.html
If you listened to any of Fr John O’Conner’s wonderful talks , he speaks about being a chaplain during WW2 and how even Jewish servicemen came to him confused as to how and why they discovered Jewish SS Guards in charge of some nazi camps.
Most of us would agree that the V2 N.O. “church” is not an instrument of sanctifying grace. My question is this: Is the TLM an instrument of sanctifying grace when celebrated under the roof of the N.O. establishment. So far the SSPX is the only society not under the roof (how long will that last?). Michael Matt is encouraged by 62 ordinations in the TLM Movement. I don’t share his enthusiasm. (See Matt’s article on The Remnant website).
I follow “Tradition in Action’s” web site which has these popes after Vat. II as valid but their actions contrary to the Faith as illicit.
[I believe Francis was not canonically elected].
If the Eucharist was no longer Our Lord, the Antichrist– who I also believe is in the world now– would have come into power years ago.
“If the Eucharist was no longer Our Lord, the Antichrist– who I also believe is in the world now– would have come into power years ago.”
Not necessarily so Richard. Pre Vatican 2 Priests are dying off but there are still some Offering the Holy Mass.
My 2 Cents I do not share Matt’s enthusiasm either having been made well aware that there are active sodomite NO priests doing the same because they feel ( and one even said this aloud in front of others ), “The older Catholics are the ones who will donate heavily for their old Mass and they are also the ones we should cater to and have them remember our parish in their estate planning.” So he kicked some traditional nuns out of their convent on Church property and turned it into a senior center. Then he advertised in the bulletin and online for the older parishioners to remember their parish in their Wills.
He referred to them as the “whales” while the other parishioners he referred to as the “populace”. In one instance, I called a very well know Catholic friend, and explained a conversation with a local NO priest who celebrated the Indult where we moved. She reminded me he was Ordained in the Novus Ordo with the changed verbiage. Later, the priest called me and defended his Local Ordinary for punishing a fellow priest who turned pederast fellow priest into the police that he caught grooming a fourteen year old by showing him sodomite pornography. The perp confessed to the police and the County Sheriff praised the priest who fell out with the bishop because he turned in the perp by even writing a letter to the Vatican.
I wonder if and how any of them in the NO have true vocations while knowing what their Bishops are doing and not doing regarding sodomites in their midst.
Urrutigoity was reported by the SSPX and was laicised some years ago, as far as I am aware. I may well be wrong, it’s not a story I ever followed with any great interest.
You clearly do not value the Society, but more than a million of us do, directly; and millions more indirectly.
Are they human beings, therefore sinners? Undoubtedly. Are they nevertheless heroes? Equally, Yes.
“If the Eucharist was no longer Our Lord, the Antichrist– who I also believe is in the world now– would have come into power years ago.”
Enter in the existence of the bishops and priests consecrated and ordained in the Old, valid Catholic Rites (most SSPX and Eastern Catholic priests and sedevacantist priests)! Through them the Eucharist IS still Our Lord!
Great Stalin,
The priest in S America who first reported “Uroot a groiney ” as the sspx young men described him to me from their seminary days , was not viewed kindly by his superiors for doing so.
Nevertheless , Uroot was booted not for sodomy in Winona but there wast anger overhis “subversive activities”because he was recruiting for his new St John Society . Bishop Timlin who, as he told me directly, did not care what your spirituality was . since, “All were welcome” in his Diocese. Urrutigoity was NOT laicized at all.
Ensey was defrocked, Urrutigoity went to S America under the protection of an opus dei Cardinal in Paraguay who, after Mrs Engel exposed him and that he had assigned Urrutigoity as head of a Catholic orphanage to the outrage of Paraguayan Catholics was removed as Cardinal by the Vatican .
Despite all this Urrutigoity continues on known as a priest “in good standing” in Argentina or Brazil I was last told.He comes from a very wealthy family.
http://www.newengelpublishing.com/exploiting-traditionalist-orders-the-society-of-st-john/
You are correct Stalin,` after what I observed first hand and was informed of , I am not impressed with the SSPX. But then I also was outraged anout what I knew was going on in the priesthood in general, in the seminaries and rectories and among he Bishops way back in the late eighties when hundreds of thousands of Novus Ordo Catholics were clueless about the sodomite infiltration too.
Hopefully the Society chapel goers will also eventually learn more themselves.
I ask have to ask myself what right thinking Traditional Believing Catholic Bishop would want a seminary in Rome given the FACT that Rome has the most sodomite pedophiles per capita of any city in the world?
https://gloria.tv/article/eqDNPVym98Z94GXMbzsbbiiya
Great Stalin. I repeat (minus most of my typos) .
Can you explain to me the rationale behind Bishop Fellay’s desire to become a Personal Prelature under Borgoglio and have a FSSPX seminary in the city that has the most sodomite pedophiles per capita in the world? Do they wish to merge with Opus Dei or model the Society after Escriva’s ?
https://gloria.tv/article/eqDNPVym98Z94GXMbzsbbiiya
http://callmejorgebergoglio.blogspot.com/2018/06/bp-fellay-discusses-fsspxs-desire-to.html
So Richard, you believe a valid pope can officially promulgate heretical documents like Vatican 2? It just cannot be. A Pope cannot promulgate the kind of heresy found in the documents of V2. It would mean the Church defected from the faith.
I do not see how anything tainted with the ’68 Ordination Rites can be trusted. To do so is to approve of V2 and Montini’s authority to introduce a new faith and a new gospel.
I would not be surprised if the sodomitical plague had touched the Society now and again, as it has destroyed the Novus Ordo Church..However, ‘touched’ is very different to ‘destroyed’, thanks be to God.
Your average queer wouldn’t care for life as a Society priest: overworked, perennially short of money, attached to a life of prayer. Your sodomite wants luxury and ease.
I cannot comment, not knowing the mind of Bishop Fellay. However, I can guess that he thinks, with a seminary within the enemy camp, so to speak, the Society can edify and influence the circles closest to the Pope (not this Pope, I mean in general) and other clerics and seminarians there. Along with that, having a seminary there displays the Society’s attachment and love for eternal Rome, if not for the Modernist, sodomitical Rome of the Novus Ordoites.
I am sure he is playing a long game.
And I agree with you 100% on the danger to his seminarians of locating a seminary in the very lair of the unnatural beast. He must think through their protection very seriously.
Precisely.
Great Stalin, the “long game” for Opus Dei is a parallel church, although they would vehemently deny this. It is a political game having nothing much to do with the Faith Jesus and His Apostles preached.
i would certainly hope that there would not be sspx houses wherein wage slaves basically work and live under the guise of pseudo Religious for the sake of a cult like corporation to whom they hand over their paychecks. Or housekeeper slaves whose paychecks automatically are donated to the cult after very long days of physical labor. all this and isolated from any family and friends until they are matured and realize they cannot leave because they have no life or anyone left outside of in these Houses.
This corporate business pyramid scheme makes billions but it is neither religious or Catholic because it is a secret society. I would pray this model is not Bishop Fellay’s “long game” using the TLM as a hook to reel in unsuspecting Faithful.
Curiously, a researcher , much better than myself and with a PhD in Forensic Psyche along with being a Traditional Catholic nun with access to global libraries, discovered that Escriva’s Opus Dei donated monies to ArchBishop LeFebvre’s Chevalier de Notre Dame in France connected with the Nazi regime during WW2.
That is why I found it odd that Bish Fellay would also want a Personal Prelature status.
You will also find this site in NY claims that LeFebvre was their Grand Master and oddly they also were linked to the Shriners Freemasonic Order.
http://www.catholicanswer.org/ordre/knights.htm
Great Stalin , and for anyone else who might be interested in French Nazi politics and the SSPX. I would recommend renting the movie , “The Statement” , starring Michael Caine and based on the tracking and eventual arrest of the infamous Nazi, Paul Touvier who, as a member of the Knights de Chevalier de Notre Dame, was on the run in hiding and supported by this same Order until he was eventually arrested in an SSPX Priory in Nice, to face trial in the Hague for nazi war crimes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Statement_(film)
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-05-25/news/mn-699_1_paul-touvier-klaus-barbie-nazi
Thanks. I’ll take note of what the SSPX said about this rather than a Michael Caine film!
Just whom are you accusing of what?
A Personal Prelature protects the Society, in the event of a rapprochement with Rome from the BISHOPS! That is the reason why the Society thinks it is the best structure for that rapprochement. My goodness, there is some suspicion and even paranoia on display in these comboxes of Louie’s.
I happen to know exactly the remuneration arrangements of two lay people working full-time for the SSPX in the UK. Those arrangements comply strictly with UK labour law and enable the individuals to live with the dignity one would expect. They do not have to give up any part of their salary back to the Society.
I would be very, very careful before publishing accusations of Nazi connections to the Society, when Archbishop Lefebvre’s own father was killed in Sachenhausen Concentration Camp by the Nazis!
Tom, I don’t sense that you are a “Fatima-ite”– but what the popes from 1917-1958 did NOT do prior to Vatican II [consecrating Russia to Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart as She requested] not only undermined the Faith and morals of countless souls throughout the world… but led to Vatican II. Why? Because the 3rd Secret of Fatima, which was to have been opened prior to 1960 and thus before the Council, [and most likely had/has to do with apostasy in the Church], was not revealed.
Ultimately, this papal failure-to-act will lead to the “annihilation of nations” and the world is now probably on the cusp of that chaos.
So, how were these popes’ supreme failures to act–when they all acknowledged [even if you don’t] that this was an authentic apparition from Heaven– guided by the Holy Spirit?
Acts of grave ommission by popes can be just as detrimental to the faithful as verbal heresies. [One can weed out the latter by contrasting with the Ordinary Magisterium, the perennial teaching of the Church].
A True Pope can fail to act as he should. What he cannot do is teach heresy. Pope Honorius was condemned for not acting as he should and someday the 1917-1958 Popes may also be condemned for their weakness in combatting modernism. Then again, maybe not. As far as Fatima goes, private revelation is not dogmatic and the meaning of any message is left up to the Pope alone. Sr Lucia’s recollection of the events and the secrets are by no means infaillable or even officially inspired like the Gospels. Popes are free to accept, reject, act, or not act on any portion of any private revelation. In the case of Fatima, the Pope declared the apparitions as worthy of belief. While it seems the message and secrets were prophetic in describing a great loss of faith and spreading of errors, the salvation of souls still depends on ones assent to authentic Catholic teaching and not a papal consecration of Russia. If a Bergolio or other modernist imposter tries to fake consecrate Russia now, it may actually cause more harm than good. The time for the consecrations has passed. We are suffering the consequences. These consequences are not solely because of a failed consecration, but because modern man has abandoned God and His Church beginning centuries ago with Luther. Those who are obsessed with Fatima create a diversion to the real enemy of the Catholic faith, Modernism, Vatican 2, and the Novus Ordo.
Great Stalin,
Obviously you haven’t been following Mrs Engel’s well documented ,”Opus Dei Watch”.
As far as SSPX and the Paul Touvier Case , you might want to cross reference it with the Hague trial documents.
Touvier , the Butcher of Lyon ,is deceased now.
Fact :He was found to have been supported by the Knights de Chevalier de Notre Dame.
“Arrest and trial
On May 24, 1989, Touvier was arrested at the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) Priory in Nice. The SSPX said at the time that Touvier had been allowed to live in the Priory as “an act of charity to a homeless man”.[3] After his arrest, newspapers reported that Touvier had been aided for years by the Catholic Church hierarchy in Lyon and that he had later been aided by members of the Traditionalist Catholic movement. He was defended by the monarchist lawyer Jacques Tremollet de Villers, who later became president of the Traditionalist Catholic organization, La Cité Catholique.
In addition to being charged with the murders at Rillieux-la-Pape, Touvier was alleged to have played an important role in the execution of Victor Basch, a prominent human rights leader, and his wife. He was also accused of having directed the deportations of other Jews. During the two years following Touvier’s arrest, the French media reported 20 additional allegations against him.
Paul Touvier was granted provisional release in July 1991. His trial for complicity in crimes against humanity did not begin until March 17, 1994. He expressed remorse for his actions, saying that he thought every day about the seven Jewish victims who were murdered at Rillieux-la-Pape. A Traditionalist Catholic priest of the Society of Saint Pius X sat beside him at the defense table, acting as his spiritual adviser. On April 20, a nine-person jury found him guilty and Touvier was sentenced to life imprisonment. An appeal was rejected in 1995 by the Court.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Touvier
Actually it is pretty accurate.
As far as the Society’s statement they said ,”…just aiding a homeless man”, they left out they were helping him for forty years! According to documents found they claimed he received a monthly stipend from the Chevaliers de Notre Dame for most of that time.
Sorry to have upset you.
Great Stalin………Interesting that Cardinal Villot ( a Propaganda Due Free Mason along with Cdl Lienart ) was implicated by the Vatican as having helped to keep the Nazi Touvier also.
“Catholic Church admits clergy helped Nazi collaborator”
“PARIS — Nazi collaborator Paul Touvier escaped arrest for four decades because he was protected by an unofficial but highly efficient network of French Catholic clergy, including former Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Jean Villot, Pope Paul VI’s chief adviser, a church- ordered study said Monday.”
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1992/01/06/Catholic-Church-admits-clergy-helped-Nazi-collaborator/6106694674000/
Stalin , Dost thou threaten Moi?
I included all the links for you to read for yourself .
Facts are facts. I have not made anything up. Touvier was arrested hiding in a SSPX Priory in Nice . The Vatican admitted Cdl Villot ( who is on a member list seized from the Propaganda Due Masonic Lodge in Italy aided him )along with his monthly stipend from the Knights de Chevalier de Notre Dame of which Bishop LeFebvre was said to be the Grand Master. (I sent that link also .) It is all in documented on the Internet including the Touvier trial notes on various Law sites
Now please reciprocate and post the documented evidence about the Bishop’s parents deaths in a Concentration Camp. I think that would be an even exchange for proof of the truth, don’t you?
Did Cardinal Lienart actually make a deathbed confession?
For what it is worth Hutton Gibson claims he did and it had to do with his membership as a Freemason. Here he explains the alleged plot of masonry according to Cdl Lienart to invalidate the Mass and sacraments through Intention.
Keep in mind if this is all true about Lienart’s membership in Freemasonry then he was excommunicated . So how could an excommunicant Ordain a priest and Consecrate a valid Bishop? Okay we can assume maybe one Bishop doing a Co Consecration makes the Consecration valid. But what about Ordaining priests?
http://www.huttongibson.com/index-detail.php?Achille-Lienart-s-Deathbed-Confession-22
Can someone please explain the validity of the SSPX based on this information?
“Marcel Militant? Tearing? the mask off of Freemasonry…??”
“As this information began to be publicly known in 1976:
Lefebvre himself acknowledged that Achilles Liénart was a Freemason in a tape-recorded talk he gave in Montreal, Canada on May 27, 1976. Yet, then, stated that it did not adversely affect the validity of his own Orders. (FALSE!!) Note: for the uncautious/unthinking masses, una cum Rat sspx’ers, and a large chunk of sede (Daniel) Dolanite type followers, the case is closed, based on the “traditional” precedent that: Marcel said so. Intelligent Catholics who aren’t fond of “sound bytes” please read on.
Any impartial student of Church History must ask what other objective/courageous souls have before: are we dealing with Marcel Mason? Still, that is irrelevant to the fact that Mr. Marcel Lefebvre was never ordained a priest- as the documented (by multiple reliable sources) heretical Freemason, Fr. Achille Liénart (according to Cum ex Apostolatus Officio) could never have been consecrated a Catholic bishop in any way, shape or form.
After finding the exact teaching – and then in a correspondence with a member of the Hierarchy in exile on the subject, it was confirmed, that: one first has to be ordained a priest before they could be consecrated a bishop -that is, they must be brought through the ordered (required) steps i.e., no skips in major orders. *Note: “The major orders are the priesthood, diaconate, and sub-diaconate. The minor orders are four in number, viz., the acolytes, the exorcists, the readers, and the door keepers (Summa, XXXVII. 2, 3).”
Ergo, layman Lefebvre -click (knowingly or not) was never capable of saying Mass, hearing confession or, of course, ordaining a deacon to the priesthood.
*Catechism of the “Summa Theologica” of St. Thomas Aquinas For the Use of the Faithful by R.P. Thomas Pegues O.P., page 285, Benzinger Brothers, New York, Printers to the Holy See, 1922, Imprimatur ”
http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/jul08tcw.htm
There appear to be some fruitcakes commenting on this blog, and not just one.
Opus Dei is Opus Dei. The SSPX are an entirely different organisation. One begins with the letter “O”, the other begins with the letter “S”.
Apart from the SSPX hater, there are random sedevacantists whose sole purpose, whatever is the subject of the thread, appears to be chatter amongst themselves on the finer and abstruse elements of their thesis.
Yes, the the Church is in a total mess, continuing its plunge into liberal protestantism and other myriad lunacies, but the discussion here is almost wholly without merit, being based on one or two totally flawed premises.
I think I’ll stick around: I may be able to offer good sense to at least some of the participants.
Time for a stone to be thrown in the Comments pond here: the biggest error I see from commentators here, and My God, it’s a big one, is that the Novus Ordo Church (a phrase I have used myself, though it’s dangerous) is not the Catholic Church. If one believes that, then one cannot even claim to be remotely Catholic.
Sweep, you do understand that Holy Orders leaves an indelible mark upon the soul and those powers can never be taken away no matter what happens to that man. He can apostasize or be excommunicated and live a life of debauchery but once ordained, he can never lose the powers bestowed upon him by the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Naturally, this doesn’t mean the exercise of his powers will be licit. But they will always be valid. As long as Lienart used the the proper form when he consecrated Lefebrve, laid his hands upon Lefebrve, the intention is implied and the sacrament confered. This is such basic sacramental theology 101 that I am surprised you are proposing otherwise. Lienart could have been a total apostate. The consequences which would only be a loss of all offices and positions in the ecclesial hierarchy. But the Church can never remove the indelible mark left on the soul and the powers that come with that order. That is why a dying man may licitly approach an excommunicated priest for confession. For the excommunicated priest never loses his power of the priesthood. You are threading on dangerous ground to imply a freemason bishop losses his powers to ordain. I have never heard of Lienart’s confession of the plot to invalidate the sacraments by changing the intention. It makes sense given the fact that Paul 6 changed the form of every sacrament thus changing its intention. In addition, your assertion that one must recieve Holy Orders in the proper order is simply not true. There has been a long debate on this topic and it has never been defined by a Pope.
Well for starters, Mr Stalin, the V2 robber council says that it only SUBSISTS in the Catholic Church. So the Novus Ordo Church IS NOT the Catholic Church according to V2, but simply SUBSISTS in it. Whatever that means.
This again. I wish I had a dollar every time the validity of Leinart’s consecrations were doubted:
http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/CracksMas.pdf
Here is a more general explanation of validity of Holy Orders:
https://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2018/05/intent-on-causing-harm.html
Yes, Vatican II chose to say “subsist in” rather than “is”. The latter is very clear. The former leads others to believe that it is only part and parcel…along with the other “Christian” churches. And this makes sense because Vatican II also states that these other churches are “means of salvation”. Both ideas being contradictory to what the Catholic Church has taught for millenium.
“Those who are obsessed with Fatima create a diversion to the real enemy of the Catholic faith, Modernism, Vatican 2, and the Novus Ordo.”
Exactly.
Louie, very interesting comments on the Validity of Archbishop Lefebvre, see comments dated 2/7/18. One blogger writes “heretical Freemason, Fr. Achille Liénart (according to Cum ex Apostolatus Officio) could never have been consecrated a Catholic bishop in any way, shape or form”, another blogger writes of Archbishop’s Lefebvre validity of his Holy Orders. I also found this on the internet.
http://archives.sspx.org/archbishop_lefebvre/validity_of_holy_orders.htm
(I was shocked when I found out he was consecrated by a Freemason).
Thank you to the bloggers, I also learn something from reading your comments!
Louie, can you please look into this, as I would like to know which answer is correct, as Canon Law is very difficult to understand.
Yes, please do stick around around, Great Stalin. Don’t go.
In this age of confusion, we need as many different opinions as possible to keep the discussion somewhat on an even keel. And I value yours very much.
As a survivor of sexual, physical and emotional abuse as a child by my parish priest, I informed an Auxiliary bishop of the Newark Archdiocese in 1983. I was not treated very kindly by this bishop who tried to tell me I was making this all up and angry because my father had recently passed away. He chastised me and reminded me he was a bishop when I referred to him as “Father”. I was instructed by this bishop to see then Vicar of Priests and tell him everything, which I did. The priest was not even removed from my parish. He told me to stay away from him and he would stay away from me…of course that didn’t happen as he pursued me. When he saw me at Sunday mass he took me aside to tell me how much I screwed up his life and that he will never be a pastor because of me.
Well he really didn’t have anything to worry about because some years later, Archbishop McCarrick promoted him to serve as his personal secretary, after that he was made a pastor too.
When he was no longer McCarrick’s personal secretary and due to the issues experienced by my younger brother (who he went on to molest after me) I again sought to tell the Archdiocese of this man’s abuse and the damage he has done to my entire family.
I then met with the Vicar of priests in Newark, Father Paul Bootkoski who said he would help arrange a meeting with Archbishop McCarrick, my many requests, for several months went ignored. Only after I wrote a certified letter to Archbishop McCarrick did he then call me to say we could meet soon (fall of 1997) So I met with him and the new Bishop elect of Metuchen, Paul Bootkoski. Archbishop McCarrick said it was the first time he ever met with a clergy abuse victim and that I helped open his eyes to the suffering one experiences. I told him how offended I was by the Archdiocesan LEGAL response as opposed to a pastoral one, as the attorney for the Archdiocese claimed they were protected by Charitable Immunity and Statute of Limitation laws. They also repeatedly requested a confidentiality agreement, to which I was infuriated and made clear that would never happen. I asked to speak to clergy and seminarians to help them understand what it is like for a child who is sexually abused by an adult and the Archbishop promised me that would be set up and to work that out with the new bishop. Lastly he promised this man (he promoted to be his personal secretary years after the Archdiocese already knew he had abused me) I never heard from them after that meeting…and the Archdiocese AGAIN sought out a confidentiality agreement one week later.
I am certain no one is surprised to learn my abuser, was returned to active ministry. I was never told any of this. Only in 2002 after the new Archbishop Myers decided to review some files, as the States Attorney General was demanding the files on credibly accused clerics was he allowed to quietly retire as a priest. I still was not informed of this as well.
The report on my abuser (Father Ken Martin) which was given to the NJ Prosecutors “was lost”, disappeared but they did have a cover page which they sent me. Per this cover sheet, the Archdiocese totally misrepresented the extent of the physical, sexual and emotional abuse my younger brother and me suffered at the hands of this priest.
I am no longer surprised by any of this, as I too had heard many rumors about McCarrick years later…but silent I will never be.
Is there one good Bishop, Archbishop who will walk a different path. Is there one that will speak the whole truth? Is there one that will start treating victims with compassion and understanding, is there one that will not stand in the way of true justice? Is there one that will encourage fellow priests to speak out instead of remaining silent when they come to know of one who is abusing a child? We have heard many words feigning compassion and understanding yet little action. When will the real priest please stand up?
All these years…all these empty promises and feigning of compassion and understanding, protecting an institution instead of the. It’s time to send Archbishop Scicluna to these shores, start separating the wheat from the chaff.
Mark Crawford
Yes, I agree that the use of subsist rather than “is” was a venture into the kind of highly-damaging speculative theology that Vatican II was full of. No argument with you there.
Allow me to play devil’s advocate on behalf of the Vatican II-ists (my own position by the way is that the Council will one day be declared a false Council or, as an alternative, its documents disowned).
If a valid baptism confers membership in the Catholic Church, (even if the Sacrament is conferred by someone “borrowing” what Christ gave solely to the Church as its possession), then the likes of Ratzinger do have a point when they say that this baptism does unite – to some extent – the recipient with the Church, even if he’s a member of the Crystal Light From Mars Christian Chapel of Jehovah.
In that sense (and ONLY in that sense), the Crystal Light From Mars Chapel can be deemed to be a vehicle of Salvation: at least they put up that argument that has to be dealt with on the theological level.
I fully understand that this is still light years away from what we have in reality, which is “Stay as a Crystal Lightist even if you now want to become a Catholic”.
What’s my point? I think it is that on a whole number of theological fronts, though the Church is almost wholly shrouded in blackness, in heresy, in schism, in the shadow of error, she has not yet FORMALLY crossed the Rubicon into outright disavowal of the Catholic Faith, and therefore cannot be rejected by any Catholic. Christ’s promise still applies and will always apply.
Where the line between the anti-Church and the true Church lies is very often almost impossible to see. For it runs through every parish and through every diocese in a different plane; and through every human heart. A Bishop can be orthodox one day and come out with some utter heretical twaddle the next. Who makes the decision about where the line lies in his case? Such is the total confusion, the line changes location from day to day.
As for this Pope, for me at least the line is much clearer. He is clearly a heretic. What that means for his office I’m sorry to tell the sedevacantists has never been determined by the Church. Bellarmine’s thought on the matter has never been made official doctrine, nor the thought of anyone else.
Is there Grace in the Novus Ordo Church? Without doubt yes. It’s very tempting, and far too easy, to say an immediate “No!’.
I urge a sense of proportion and a sense of trust (in Christ at least!). One day this horrible confusion will be sorted out. It may come via a Holy Pope, even from one converted from Vatican II-ism, or it may come from God directly in the form of a chastisement. Who knows? I certainly don;t, nether does anyone else here.
Our role is merely to live as authentic Catholics and pray hard.
Pray hard and not be a blowhard.
Tom ,2 Vermont and Stalin ( the latter being a very strange chosen moniker) .
I am just presenting legitimate questions based on facts. There is nothing “fruitcake” to state the facts surrounding the SSPX involvement with the concealment of the Nazi Touvier.
I do understand about the indelible mark on the soul of a priest. That was back in grade school Catechism .
What I am asking however, which was posed by people in the SSPX themselves, is can an excommunicated cleric ( Lienart ) Ordain other priests validly and licitly ? It just appears that “outside the Church” i.e. “excommunicated”must be illicit and maybe invalid. The ONLY rebuttal I ever read on an SSPX site years ago was that 2 Bishops Consecrated LeFebvre and the Church does that in case one is a Freemason.
True?
Then there is the question about Ordination. Only one Bishop Ordains and Lienart also Ordained LeFebvre. Can an excommunicated Bishop Ordain priests validly and licitly?
Sorry if these are redundant questions for the more learned who have been down this road.
Remember I have been in the Catholic Eastern Rite for decades and did not pay attention to any of this and only discovered ALL the fruitcake questions “FRUITCAKES” arguing validity , arising in a 3 month sabbatical taken within the SSPX.
Friends who went to St Mary’s Kansas and stayed for about a month came back traumatized ,not only by the ‘fruitcakes” who resided there , but also from Fr Angles himself. They personally relayed details about his admiration of Hitler
and the paranoia of the parishioners who told them they do not gather and talk outside after church because the priest will accuse them og gossip. They were also told the FBI actually came and filmed Fr Angles Mass because McVeigh ( of bombing fame) had come there to Mass.
As far as Bishop Fellay and his long term goals . I find them odd but a parishioner of the sspx told me last night he is probably on his way out as of July.
YES , please Louie explain to us more about the Society.
Yes Stalin.
Stick around but please avoid the childish name calling . People here genuinely are looking for answers to to the past and present confusion in the Church.
“Obviously you haven’t been following Mrs Engel’s well documented ,”Opus Dei Watch”.”
I’ve read them all.
“Stalin , Dost thou threaten Moi?”
As I said, suspicion and paranoia run amok here. Both are very unhealthy.
Stalin, can you explain why ArchBishop LeFebvre did sign the V2 documents, while Card. Ottoviani and several others did not?
The ONLY rebuttal to that i saw on an SSPX site was that he did not understand the ramifications of the Council.
Horrendous Mark. So sorry for your and your brother’s suffering.
A distant Uncle tried to molest me (I was seven) and a younger brother when we were staying with him during a Summer holiday. Our clenched fists meant we survived the attempt – he backed off. Yet another filthy queer we found out many years later.
Good. If that is the motivation, then we might get somewhere. But if the motivation is merely spreading one’s hatreds about and causing confusion rather than seeking answers to it, one will get nowhere.
You’re asking me why one Archbishop signed the VII documents when another did not? How could I possibly know? Filial obedience? Faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ? Who knows? I don’t, you don’t and it’s utterly irrelevant.
Mark, i am so sorry about the assaults you and your brother endured at the hands of a priest , followed by the insults to your integrity and veracity in coming forward. Every victim should be lauded for having both the courage and concern for future victims by speaking out.
http://www.road-to-recovery.org/about-us/
Bob is a decent man and has been helping victims and whistle blower clergy and Religious for quite some time.
Let me make myself clear. I hate no one , absolutely no one.
If that is what you interpret serious facts and questions to be , then there is something wrong or something to conceal with your over the top defensive attitude and it bespeaks of a lack of Christian understanding at a very basic level. This is why the Society loses so many people.
I watched as an older couple who having heard the Gregorian chant from the street entered the SSPX chapel where fr Hewko was presiding. They were literally rushed by parishioners who quickly admonished the elderly woman for wearing a pantsuit . It was freezing cold , but that was besides the point. Then they handed her a chapel veil telling her she could not come in without having her head covered. Both husband and wife were seriously embarrassed and graciously stayed for about ten minutes before the slipped out hoping to go unnoticed.
Ask yourself , would Jesus have behaved so when a curious onlooker approached Him to listen and learn?
The over the top quasi excuse for piety and defensive demeanor puts people off and contributes to the impression of being CULT like .
I do not believe it is irrelevant . It is a legitimate question to consider. Why and when did he have a sudden reversal of opinion to reject what he already accepted ?
How was it that the Freemason Cardinal Villot was later accused of calumny towards Bish LeFebvre but also blamed by the Vatican for helping to conceal the Nazi butcher of Lyon by hiding him in an SSPX Monastery and supporting him with a monthly stipend from an Order of Knights of which Bish LeFebvre was claimed to be the Grand Master?
None of this makes sense but it is all factual.
Great Stalin, Occasionally on this blog there are posters who decry the antisemitism they believe Traditional Catholics stand for.
While I am well aware there is definitely an element of Talmudic influence that seeks to undermine the Faith , there are also real reasons for Catholics to question militant fascist politics that have influenced some groups.
http://www.mgr.org/TraditionIsNotFascism.html
If a homosexual man is not “actively homosexual”, is he still homosexual? This may be a stupid question, but I read somewhere that some seminaries are accepting homosexual men as long as they are not “active.” How can this be proven? If they pass the “active” test up to the day of ordination, how can it be certain that this priest will not become active and prey on young boys? The bottom line is catholic clergy can no longer be trusted. If they can’t be trusted, there is no foundation for faith. If there is no foundation for faith, the church is useless.
My 2 Cents,
This question remains. Why would they place a homosexual non active OR active into the Near Occasion of Sin?
Remember the Act of Contrition in which we state, I firmly resolve with the help of They Grace to sin no more AND to avoid the near occasion of sin ,Amen” ?
One priest commented in an audio that placing a homosexual in an environment to live among other young men with like attraction is like placing a heterosexual man in a convent that houses mainly prostitutes. It makes no common sense.
Thank you Jacinta for this link
http://archives.sspx.org/archbishop_lefebvre/validity_of_holy_orders.htm
In the document we read this
“In the words uttered by (the minister), the intention of the Church is expressed; and this suffices for the validity of the sacrament, EXCEPT THE CONTRARY BE EXPRESSED EXTERIORLY on the part of the minister [emphasis given by author].”
Cdl Lienart expressed exteriorly in his last confession that he was a Freemason contrary to Church teaching and therefore, an excommunicant.
But the SSPX document goes to say in defense of LeFebvre being Ordained and Consecrated by said Freemason…………
“In defining this truth of faith, Pope Paschal II does not add the least qualification, not even an implicit reference to cases where such ordinations might not be valid:
Therefore, instructed by the examples of our Fathers, who at diverse times have received Novatians, Donatists, and other heretics in their orders [i.e., acknowledging the validity of the orders which they had received in their heretical sects]: We receive in the episcopal office [i.e., as valid bishops] the bishops of the aforesaid kingdom, who were ordained in schism… October 22, 1106.”
So by this standard can I assume the Orthodox Church is valid to attend and receive sacraments in if there is no Catholic Church in which to go for Mass and the Sacraments?
The new code of canon law supports this or is it that only “fruitcakes” can have their cake and eat it too?
“So by this standard can I assume the Orthodox Church is valid to attend and receive sacraments in if there is no Catholic Church in which to go for Mass and the Sacraments?”
Except the Orthodox Churches would deny you the Sacraments. That has happened to me personally in one former Soviet Republic where (at that time) there was no Catholic Church.
To the Orthodox, we are heretics and schismatics.
@Sweepoutthefilth; you have taken upon yourself the authority, to be the archbishop’s judge, jury and executioner. He was a saint, by every standard. You, who’s name is ‘pride’, is attacking one of God’s most important saints in these post-V2 times. Only God knows your heart, but willingly, or blindly (pride blinds), you well may be a servant of the Father of Lies, no matter how many famous people you claim to have known, no matter what you believe to be your ‘truth’. This is how Satan works, deceiving so many, and poisoning many Catholic hearts.
You’ll not save the Church, for God is in control……Pray for the ignorant and the ill-intentioned. We cannot fight the enemy on every front, but must always prioritize things, directing our energies to the most important things and leaving to God those things we cannot control. We were warned;……’to save our soul in fear and trembling.’
As good bishop Sheen said: Every proud person takes himself too seriously.
An old wise man, speaks to his grandson…….Son, inside of every men are two wolves, one good and one bad. The good wolf is simple, humble and pure in mind and heart, the bad wolf is proud, lustful, worldly, greedy, envious, angry, and lazy.
The ‘wise’ grandson asks…..’grandfather, so who wins?’ The ‘wise’ grandfather says…….THE ONE YOU FEED!
I will offer a Rosary for you today (sincerely), for I believe that your intention was always good, but by some ‘crack’ the smoke of Satan…….Ave Maria gratia plena…..Amen.
I still stand by what I posted at least couple of years ago:
The Society of Saint Pius X has very deep roots in fearless+++faith (fearing God only), holy perseverance in persecution, faithful soldiers of Jesus Christ, who have been in’ the mouth of the wolves’ more then once, but not swallowed……Thanks Be To God!
Bishop Fellay is the ‘good shepherd’ who loves God, and His sheep. IF IT’S GOD’S WILL, they will walk into the ‘Coliseum’, not to be conquered, but as CONQUERORS for JESUS CHRIST, and HIS TRUTH!, in humility, with the Shield and Sword of Saint Michael the Glorious Archangel, strengthened with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, as true servants of God receive, in true joy (that comes only from God), carrying their ‘cross.’ Where the ‘remnant’ faithful are awaiting their entrance, ‘FOR WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE!’
THY CHURCH, O CHRIST, IS A STRONG CITY BUILT ON A MOUNTAIN, VISIBLE TO ALL AND ENLIGHTENING ALL. THOU ART HER FOUNDER AND FOREMOST CITIZEN, O JESUS CHRIST, SON OF GOD AND OUR LORD!
(from an ancient Liturgy).
When Peter was leaving Rome, because of the persecution……Our Lord asked him “Quo Vadis Petri?”
Was there ever ‘one’ battle won, running from the enemy, rather, then facing them?
Cum ex Apostolatus addresses the loss of office. It has nothing whatsoever to do with sacraments. No one for any reason whatsoever can lose his priesthood or his episcopal character. It marks the souls forever. The proper matter needed for Holy Orders is a baptized male. One could not ordain a muslim or jew, but one could ordain a heretic or schismatic if proper form were used. It would be a great sin of course but it would be valid.
Basically sweep, an excommunicate bishop can validly ordain priests and even bishops.
Oh give it up ! You ,who posted you “have been given the gift of discernment” by God Himself !
I had quite enough of your kind back in the NO when charismania came and went from our local parish in the seventies.
I am merely looking for answers from bona fide historical facts surrounding the Bishop and his strange group of cult like idolator followers.
No , we had been invited by a former Catholic Eastern Rite priest whom we knew for a long time as our pastor. He left because he and two others were the ONLY hetero chaste priests left in the entire Diocese. We attended the Divine Liturgy offered by one of the other priests which was quite a distance and he actually encouraged us to go to the Orthodox Church where our former pastor went because in his words, “He is the meaning of a quintessential priest.”
I know one thing for sure. That is , I would not be running into
any living saints, by their own admission, such as From Poland in an Orthodox setting. There seems to be more sanity .
It is precisely because of SSPX women like “From Poland”and the homosexual priest, that we and about six other families along with at least three or four other people and a Deacon who spent 2 years in Winona Seminary, left the SSPX chapel and all rediscovered each other at Fr William Ashley’s TLM Mission Chapel .
Another family told Fr Ashley about their experiences there. When Fr Ashley he left we all left.
Funny, Fr Ashley did not recommend we go to another SSPX chapel but rather, fulfill our obligation with the Orthodox if we could not find a decent genuine Catholic church close enough.
Sweep, the problem with the SSPX came to a head in the 1980s. At that time the issue they face and continue to face is, “do they join the conciliar church or not?” Abp Lefebrve at one time said when Rome returns to tradition, reconciliation will occur by itself. But as the years went by it was obvious that Rome had no intention of returning to tradition. Yet Abp Lefebrve couldnt cut the cord from the heretics. He was a conflicted man who lived a contradiction because his two alternatives were too repugnant. He couldnt leave the church he loved nor could he serve false masters and a false faith. His problem was his insistence that the heretics represented the Catholic Church. Those who rightly wanted nothing to do with heretics left the Society (or were kicked out) and those that could not partake in the Archbishops public disobedience by ordaining four bishops, left to form the FSSP. So the only ones left in the Society were those who would adopt the Archbishop’s line on whatever issue. So yes, the society adopted some cult of Lefebrve qualities. The recent overtures to Rome show that the society has not progressed theologically since the 1980s. What they seem to seek already exists in the form of the FSSP. They like all trads must make up their minds. V2 and NO are Catholic therefore I must assent to their contradictory teachings somehow, or V2 and NO are not Catholic and I must flee from them and their poison. I made my choice.
Sweep, you cannot fulfill your obligation at a schismatic sect.
Oh. You are guided by an apostate priest. Your confusion is Perhaps explained.
Tom.A.
If the visible Catholic Church – overshadowed by multiple errors, gross worldliness and immorality as she is in our sad days – is no longer in your estimation the Catholic Church then may I ask you:
1. At what precise moment did the Church become a non-Church?
2. Where is the Church now, and who is her Head (on earth)?
” .. strange group of cult like idolator followers ..”.
Your depiction of the SSPX bears no relation whatsoever to the daily reality that the rest of us see. At the SSPX Priory I know very well (Bristol in England) the clergy are men, real men; and fathers too, full of genuine concern and love for their flock. The laity are the most normal bunch you could imagine: blue collar families, professional men and women, lots of little children and everybody with their weaknesses, strengths, foibles and all the rest of it. Sane, calm, normal.
The picture you paint tells of a.deeper problem I strongly suspect. One that’s within you yourself.
TGS,
1. Don’t know
2. Don’t know
TGS, there’s no need to know the answers to those questions. Like creation, its a mystery how it happened, but we witness its occurrence every second of the day. Likewise, the hows and whys of the Great Apostasy are mysteries but we witness its effects on a daily basis. As it has been said before, we can accept a mystery, but we cannot accept a contradiction. To claim the conciliar church is the Catholic Church is to deny the Faith handed down to us till 1958. To keep Bergolio or Ratzinger as Pope is to accept at least one heresy.
If anyone can validly baptize, including Jews and atheists, then why not say all of these groups are “means of salvation”? Your explanation for why non-Catholic sects can be any sort of “means of salvation” is something the Catholic Church never taught. Non-Catholics sects were never considered “means of salvation”. Vatican II is most certainly contradictory to the True Catholic Faith.
Tom A
Utter clap-trap. The questions asked are key. If you cannot tell me precisely when the Church stopped being the Church; nor where the real Church is to be found, you just show that your thesis is a crock of shit.
The Catholic Church is very deeply in crisis. We all know that. It may well be the greatest crisis in history, given that Modernism is “the synthesis of all errors”.
But to conclude that Our Lord (in effect) was lying and that hell has prevailed over the Church makes you a very dangerous individual, for you lead people away from the Sacraments directly into despair. I am amazed that Louie gives you the freedom to comment here, but that’s his business.
Another piece of the jigsaw: There is a fascinating biography of Sr Pasquilina, Pope Pius XII housekeeper and “nun-friday” The book is called, “La Popessa”. There is a lot in it about how Cardinal Spellman (whom neither Pius nor Sr Pasquilina liked on first impression) charmed his way into their good graces. There is nothing in this biography to suggest any perversion, however there is a great deal about Spellman’s knack with money and “spreading it around” to gain access. Worth reading for another view of Pius XII and how he shouldered the burdens imposed by WW II and its aftermath.
“…..though the Church is almost wholly shrouded in blackness, in heresy, in schism, in the shadow of error…”
Show me Catholic teaching that even suggests such a thing can happen to the Holy Catholic Church, the Spotless Bride of Christ?
Archbishop Lefebve’s father died in Sonnenberg Concentration Camp, not in Sachsenhausen as I wrote above.
A member of the French Resistance, Rene Lefebvre died aged 62 in 1944. The whereabouts of his body is unknown.
Many references on the net.
“…..though the Church is almost wholly shrouded in blackness, in heresy, in schism, in the shadow of error…”
Show me Catholic teaching that even suggests such a thing can happen to the Holy Catholic Church, the Spotless Bride of Christ?
In reply to 2Vermont’s question, I ask in return, do you so easily forget Scripture?
Did not Our Lord Himself ask if He would find any faith on Earth when He returns? It’s clear then that there wouldn’t be much. And don’t the Prophets and St. Paul tell us about the great falling away, which must come before the man of sin reveals himself?
Not only therefore does the Church ‘suggest’ that it may become shrouded in spiritual fog and error, Scripture tells us IT’S A CERTAINTY.
It is in the Fathers. It’s discussed by the Doctors of the Church. It’s even is in JPII’s Catechism!
And what would you call it when 98% of the Bishops followed Arius?!
Part of the problem we face as a society as well as a Church is that no-one knows any history.
Who said Hell prevailed? Just because our eyes are clouded and we cannot see or find the Church does not mean it is not visible or has defected. It means there is something wrong with us. We have lost it. We had it and we lost it. The Church has to survive and be visible and indefectible. That doesnt mean we have to recognize it. You yourself recognize that modernism is heresy yet you cannot make the leap that modernists are not Catholic therefore modernists like Bergolio, Ratzinger, Wojtyla, and Montini cannot be Popes. I offer no explanations as to why or how. But to say the conciliar church is the Catholic Church is to adopt the heresy that the church can officially teach heresy (which is what V2 taught).
Show me where the Catholic Church can teach that there are salvific elements in false religions. We all agree there is a great apostasy and millions lose the faith evey year, but to suggest the cause of this loss is Holy Mother Church herself is blasphemy! The poison of modernism does not come from Holy Mother Church but from usurpers. The evil organizationt that is spewing this new ecumenism heresy is not Holy Mother Church. Tell me Great Stalin how can Holy Mother Church feed us poison. She can’t, but an evil imposter can. Bergolio dishes out the poison on a daily basis. Well Im no longer drinking it. If he is your Pope then open wide and take a deep gulp because thats what Catholics do, be fed and nourished by the Pope and his bishops.
PS- as far as Arius is concerned, Liberius never apostasized and remained Pope. To claim he did is to side with the protestants and Gallicans and other enemies of the Church.
When even Bergoglio preaches / teaches orthodox Catholicism (and he does, occasionally) all Catholics must listen to him. Otherwise, he is to be ignored. Ditto for all the others on your list.
You are right, the Church cannot teach error. She has not done so. What HAS taught error is not the Church, but the anti-Church JPII named in 1978.
You want an analogy? Here’s the best I can offer: the first ‘Alien’ film, where the alien egg opens and an octopus-like thing fixes itself to the man’s face. The man is the Church, the octopus is the anti-Church. They are bound together in a cold and deadly embrace. But the Church still lives. She must do, or Christ is a liar.
And Christ does not lie. You throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I didn’t mention Liberius. I said that 95 of the Bishops became Arians.
And that wasn’t the Church ” … almost wholly shrouded in blackness, in heresy, in schism, in the shadow of error…”?
98%. Damn keyboard.
“Who said hell prevailed?”
You did and do.
If you cannot tell me where the Church now is, because the Catholic Church has disappeared, then simple logic tells one that the Church has failed and hell has prevailed.
That is impossible, therefore your position is rubbish, to be rejected by all Catholics.
Your error Tom – and I suspect that many sedevacantists make this mistake, one that perhaps it springs partly from the American pysche – is that you see things in binary terms.
See the analogy I give you below. The Church and the Anti-Church are, I am sorry to say, not an either/or but a both-at-the-same-time. ALMOST indistinguishable very often, they are nevertheless still, and always will be, separate things.
How are we to know when he teaches heresy or orthodox Catholicism? If we have evalute everything he says, than we don’t need a Pope.
If I lose my keys or my wallet, does it still exist as I left it? Or does it defect because it was lost? The Church is still there, spotless and Holy and free from error. I just don’t know where it went. I can’t see it. But just because we can’t see it doesnt mean it isn’t visible or has defected. Also, binary is the most clear cut unambigious term. The Church either is or isnt the Church of Christ (no such thing as subsists). Christ came to seperate wheat from chaff, goats from sheep. No ambiguity there. How eles is a Catholic suppose to think? This act is either a sin or it isnt. The sacrament is either valid or it is not. No Mr Stalin, binary is the best way to maintain the Faith. A thing is either Catholic or its not. Your octopus analogy falls flat. A better one is the pod people in Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
You cannot “ignore” a True Pope on Faith and Morals. This is quite simply mortally sinful. If the man who is the recognized Pope, promotes something universally than it is either to be followed, or he has ceased to be the Pope because of his heresy. Its really, really, REALLY simple.
Once again it is the anti-sedevacantists who get rude and crude.
Wait. You think that this so-called “anti-Church” started under JPII in 1978?
I just want to point out one thing here.
The Gates of Hell cannot prevail against the Church BECAUSE Jesus Christ descended into hell after His Death and released the Righteous from the bondage of being prevented from the Beatific Vision through His Sacrifice for all of us.
Think one moment here .
How can gates attack the Church? Jesus is the Church and He opened the gates and freed souls.
Have you ever looked at that ancient icon?
The oft repeated interpretation is totally misconstrued.
Yes, Pollock lady I know , I must be the devil but wait for it, wait for it .
Lol ! I met Bish Tissier de Mallarais too !!!!
Yep Tom and 2 Vermont you are correct. They can and have Ordained KNOWN Pedophiles too!
https://www.ap.org/en-us/
https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2018/07/01/vatican-city-still-has-no-policy-to-fight-clergy-sex-abuse/
And what % of these bishops taught the Universal Church error?
Stalin, No one has to listen or do what a Pope says if it is evil and goes against what Christ and His Apostles taught.
Where is the Catholic Church according to you Great Stalin?
WRONG!
https://akacatholic.com/sspx-a-burgeoning-identity-crisis/
http://www.culturewars.com/CultureWars/Archives/Fidelity_archives/SSPX1.htm
Tom,
http://www.culturewars.com/CultureWars/Archives/Fidelity_archives/SSPX1.htm
It was and it is SICK. Really sick and this is just the way we found it but even worse because we all stepped into a nest of priest perverts there too at the time……..now they have their own church.
Scripture speaks of individuals losing the Faith (and thereby losing membership in the Church), not the Church falling into error.
Tom,
http://www.culturewars.com/CultureWars/Archives/Fidelity_archives/SSPX1.htm
It was and it is SICK. Really sick and this is just the way we found it but even worse because we all stepped into a nest of priest perverts there too at the time……..now they have their own church.
We were also advised by the Priest in charge of Ecclesia Dei we could attend the Orthodox.
Guess everyone’s an Apostate these days but sorry Stalin I totally agree with this expose.
http://www.culturewars.com/CultureWars/Archives/Fidelity_archives/SSPX1.htm
And so did fellow parishioners at the sspx chapel we attended.
SICK!
And be specific please.
Correct. And that’s exactly what’s happened this last sixty years.
And what percentage of Bishops now are teaching the UNIVERSAL Church error?
No, Vatican II taught error to the entire Universal Church. That isn’t just individual members falling into heresy.
Comprehension of basic English seems to be at a premium here.
Why on earth would you think that? It’s not what I wrote, is it? I wrote that in 1978 JPII “named” it – he publicly (in the USA) described it.
All Novus Ordo bishops teach the false religion promulgated at Vatican II. Your analogy with the Arian crisis fails.
oooh….another insult Great Stalin? I’m *shocked*.
Apparently, you’re totally fine with discussion here with the rest of us as long as you can do the name-calling and others come around to your way of thinking. Right?
Yes, it’s not a straight-forward question these last few decades as it should be, but I can definitely state that it hasn’t disappeared as you sedevacantists are forced to admit you believe.
Nevertheless, it’s pretty straight-forward. It is where it has ALWAYS been, since 33AD – in the body of men and women who hold the integral Catholic Faith: the faith of the Fathers of the Church, of the Saints, of the Councils, of the Popes.
As far as the latter two are concerned, there are questions about both from Vatican II onwards. Then became visible the Anti-Church which over the decades since has grown exponentially until it has almost occluded the Catholic Church – but not entirely, not everywhere and not all the time.
And THAT last point is exactly what sedevacantists cannot or will not grasp.
So Great Stalin’s Catholic Church isn’t visible either. That’s what I thought.
“All Novus Ordo bishops teach the false religion promulgated at Vatican II.”
Premise 1 – Vatican II promulgated a false religion.
WRONG – it promulgated, disastrously, the Traditional Faith along with a large body of (liberal) speculative theology tending towards protestantism. But not a new religion per se. There are those who DO hold to a bastard, cuckoo form of Catholicism, but this is not the Church but the Anti-Church.
Premise 2 – all Novus Ordo Bishops teach this false religion.
I only need to provide one example of where this is wrong for your entire claim to be proved false. The example I will give is Athanasius Schneider, who has called for a new Syllabus to correct any wrong (non-Traditional) interpretations of Vatican II, and for its discrepancies – they do exist – to be put right.
I am not claiming sainthood for the man – I wish he would call out Bergoglio publicly be name – but he cannot possibly be called a non-Catholic as you no doubt would. Ditto the other Kazakhstan Bishops.
There are no doubt others.
You sedevacantists have nothing to offer Catholics except more confusion, despair and cynicism. Your views are not only dangerous, they are evil.
His Church is no more visible to him than ours. He can’t specifically point to the Church anymore than we can. What we are willing to do is call a spade a spade: that the organization that calls itself the Novus Ordo can not possibly be the visible Catholic Church.
“So Great Stalin’s Catholic Church isn’t visible either. That’s what I thought.”
Of course it’s visible. It is visible in the Pope, Bergoglio currently disastrously reigning, the Bishops (maybe a majority of whom hold errors ranging from tending towards error to outright heresy). It is visible in the Eastern Catholic Churches. It is visible in the priesthood, far from all of whom are heretics. It is visible in the SSPX and other Traditional groups.
I looked at sedevacantism three or four years ago; corresponded with Father Cekada, read a great deal. It’s a tempting thesis in these days of horror, but in the end I rejected it because it ipso facto leads to a denial of Christ’s promise that the gates of hell would never (entirely) prevail over the Church.
If you don’t know where the Church is, and if the earthly Head of the Church no longer exists, then there is no more Catholic Church nor any way for it to be re-constituted in the future.
Sedevacantism is a dead-end, a cul de sac. It offers nothing.
The two of you can’t see it because your minds are totally overcome by a false and pernicious error, that of sedevacantism — a new religion just as evil as the errors you decry in the modern Church.
Promulgating anything Catholic along with heresy is still promulgating something not Catholic. It is a substantial change from the Catholic Faith. It is a new false religion…just like the many Protestant religions that still have some Catholicism left in them.
As for Bishop Schneider: He is calling for corrections of false “interpretations”. If he thinks these are just false interpretations, then he isn’t the man for the job. He still believes that Vatican II was a true Council of the Catholic Church. It doesn’t sound like he has the Catholic Faith either. As for this Syllabus of Errors he is supposedly requesting, how’s that coming? That’s been something in the works for years now. It must be sitting in queue with Burke’s Dubia, another defender of “the Faith”.
TGS, Every comment you have made is a shining light in this dark and perilous combox that daily spirals into the abyss. The same tired handful of character’s (so sickeningly full of hubris) that sow the same pathetic agenda of confusion, calumny, and diabolical doublespeak repleat with shrieking and gnashing of teeth, that I hope you hold out as the unlearned are surely lead astray by them.
God bless you.
The Great Stalin: You said this:
–
“As for this Pope, for me at least the line is much clearer. He is clearly a heretic. What that means for his office I’m sorry to tell the sedevacantists has never been determined by the Church. Bellarmine’s thought on the matter has never been made official doctrine, nor the thought of anyone else. ”
–
and this:
–
“Of course it’s visible [the Catholic Church]. It is visible in the Pope, Bergoglio currently disastrously reigning, the Bishops (maybe a majority of whom hold errors ranging from tending towards error to outright heresy)”
–
Pope Innocent III said this:
–
“With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.”
–
Pope Leo XIII said this:
–
“The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium.”
–
If you are correct that Bergoglio is a heretic he is OUTSIDE THE CHURCH already. Further, in view of the statement by Pope Innocent III, please refrain from making statements that the visibility of the Church is preserved by heretics, since Pope Innocent III clearly teaches that the Catholic Church is not a church of heretics.
Oh but they’ll eventually get Comrade Stalin banned, as they did yours truly.
While I disagree with TGS on many things, I do appreciate and respect intelligent and independent thought.
Of all people, he will appreciate how disagreeing with the regime and talking sense can get you sent to Gulag. This site is MUCH worse than you remember. Byt’ ostorozhen, Comrade.
Fair warning – Looney Louie loves it. As long as you subscribe to – having trouble typing this with a straight face – THE CATHOLIC INQUISITOR, you can quite literally say anything and remain in Il Douche’s good graces.
This is a superb blog article, Louie.
What a rotten edifice pertains. It is yet more proof of the forces working against Jesus Christ and His teaching. Kudos to Satan, he has played his hand well
McCarrick was one of the chief “celebrants” at the funeral Mass for Senator Edward Kennedy, the pro abortion and pro homosexual, legislator.
Dowd posted something very thought provoking on ‘vox cantoris’. He said the Church should go back to it’s pre Constantine era.
I tend to agree with him. A poor Church without worldly politics is what Jesus taught.
It seems to me when the Church dove into politics it dove into greed and mammon worship.The thirst for more power , control ,properties and wealth split the original catholic church founded by Our Lord and His Apostles into two and it has been splintering ever since.
Jesus did not found his church on lies.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Donation-of-Constantine
when Rome became the seat of church power Our Lord’s
own relatives begged Sylvester for a Bishop and their pleas went unheeded until the Church His extended relatives worshiped in died out. They were called desposynos Christians or Jewish Christians .
We seem plagued with the same problem today. Where are the good Bishops? Does Rome want the Church to die out?
Has Rome forgotten that Our Lord also taught , “The Kingdom of God is within you?”
Cyprian – yes, and?
The Church has ALWAYS had members who have put themselves outside. Luther was once a Catholic, Arius, the Orthodox, the Jansenists, Wyclif, Bucer, Calvin, Melancthon, the Cathars, the Bogomils.
This time around the authority (Pope and Bishops) that should be clearing things up have themselves succuumbed, which makes the situation now all the more tragic and dangerous.
But to react to that by saying that the Church no longer exists is madness and to me suggests a low level of faith, despite all the huffing and puffing.
Look at these comboxes, which I’ve been reading for a long time: where do the sedevacantists build up? Where do they edify, support, give an example to.encourage others?
All they do is witter on ad nauseam about their thesis. That’s their only interest for it is their true religion.
Stalin, I neglected to add that chapel properties where laity asked for an sspx priest to celebrate Mass turned into heated fighting stables where a to and fro tug of war erupted over property. I have heard this several times from people who attended these independent chapels. Once they invited a priest in from sspx, discord erupted as to whether they should turn the property over to the society or keep it in the hands of laity.
Your break away Resistance group even advertises itself by stating, “They have the property but we have the Faith.”
I am left to wonder how many properties Jesus and His Apostles had?
ditto to your last comment.
Perhaps Louie doesn’t have the time to moderate. But it is needed, even with a light touch. You’re right Fleur, it’s a cess-pit at the moment.
“Your” breakaway group, the Resistance?
Not mine, I can assure you. They are a pathetic group completely undermined by one man’s pride.
Why do you discuss Williamson and his mob? They are nothing to do with the SSPX.
Do you have anything good to.say about the Society? No praise, no gratitude?
No? Then you have a major spiritual problem. And you aren’t the only one here.
Yes in one breath TGS states the Church is still visible through the Pope and bishops and in another he states that they are heretics and outside the Church. A clear contradiction.
Furthermore he continues to say that sedes say the Church no longer exists. Tom’s stated he is unsure where it is…that although it may be visible he can not see it at this time. To say he said it doesn’t exist is a lie. Let us remember that the Church was not visible to many in its beginning…that doesn’t mean it wasn’t visible.
It seems to me that to say a bunch of heretics = the visible Catholic Church= the Gates of Hell prevailed.
2Vermont:
No contradiction at all, for you cannot seem to mentally process what I have repeatedly said: the Church and the Anti-Church exist not in an either/or plane, but in a both-at-the-same-time plane. They are (at the moment much more so than at any time in history) inextricably intertwined.
Why is sedevacantism an American phenomenon? It is vanishingly small outside the USA.
Let us ponder this: it may well be that the American good guy / bad guy mentality, the cowboy / Indian, the good / evil binary view of life, constantly encouraged by film and TV, produces minds which simply cannot see that GOOD AND EVIL EXIST AT THE SAME TIME – often within one individual, let alone within one global body such as the Catholic Church.
Blunder I actually don’t believe sedes got you banned. I know I never contacted Louie.
Intellectual discussions … those of us who hold the sede position have done a good job of keeping it intellectual and insult-free. We are all human and fall but it is clear that the anti-sedes are the ones who have been consistently uncharitable towards sedes not the other way around.
As for being able to say whatever we want as long as we subscribe to the Inquisitor paper? I have yet to subscribe.
Anyway, I am fairly certain that Louie makes his own decisions based on his own judgment not because others whine long enough or give him money.
“Then you have a major spiritual problem.”
Who made you God?
Who made YOU a spiritual director?
No I have zero gratitude to the SSPX because I have heard major nut cases at the pulpit and seen the pervs they also have and what their preaching had done to some young men. I have witnessed women like ” From Poland “above and how they express themselves as holier than thou , or state as she did on another post how ,”God has given me the gift of discernment”. Parishioners afraid to speak to one another outside after mass or in the basement because the priest may accuse them of gossip.
Fr Angles is just as much off the wall as Williamson and Hewko and HE is Bishop Fellay’s Canon Lawyer?
You can keep your SSPX cult and all the fruits and nuts in their basket.
But you still can’t see which is which. You have to personally sift out the heretics to find your church. YOU have to. Like digging for a needle in a haystack. An anti-Church “intertwined” with the True Church. This is your rendition of visibility not the Church’s. You still haven’t provided Church teaching to support it. Your Bible verse failed. It merely showed that individual people would lose the Faith.
Looks like Vox has the same questions I did when I spoke to a retired Canon lawyer priest about the sacrament of Holy Orders being given to
sodomites.
“Fr. VF said…
Before entering into this discussion, everyone should become educated on the heresy of Donatism. It is a heresy that seems reasonable to amateur theologians.
7:35 pm, June 23, 2018
Blogger Vox Cantoris said…
I know what Donatism is. It is not a question of the priest’s sanctity, it is the intention at ordination. If a marriage can be declared null because the person lied or had malicious intent why not ordination? ”
All the Roman Rite legalities aside and all the quotations from Popes do not and have not adequately explained this situation.
Let’s face it . The Ordination and invitational recruitment into the entire church of sodomites proves one thing. The institutional church has been blinded by the smoke of satan ,including it’s offshoots like the sspx.
Furthermore you are also stating that the visible church is found in Bergoglio the Heretic. You are therefore saying that he represents both the Church and the anti church at the same time. And you think *our thesis* teaches that hell prevailed?
So anyone who doesnt say something good about the sspx has a major spiritual problem? Not just a minor one…a major one.
Yes you are correct , I know Bob and have worked together in the past. Thank you for your kind words and support.
Thank you for you support, sorry to hear your uncle too tried to molest you. Certainly clergy are not the only ones who abuse. The problem with our church is why so many have “looked the other way” or “they are too afraid of doing the right thing” knowing how badly their bishops will respond.
@Stalin.
I’m skimming posts and have been on board with your responses. But, there is error in VII. I think the fact that it isn’t dogmatic, similar to the recent AL garbage, is cause for is to ignore it and maintain the integrity of the church.
The bride of Christ is unrecognizable, similar to the same point of the passion when Christ was carrying his cross. Seeing the responses of the many of the sede’s, I’m confident that people were getting after St. Veronica for still believing that the beaten and bloodied man was the Messiah.
No, TGS is responding like a catholic, not like a shrieking heretic. This person will be alright.
Perhaps, but prior to reading akacatholic, I was very sympathetic towards the Sedevacantist position. As I’ve read their comments/responses, my positioned has changed. For that elucidation, I’m thankful.
TGS, now you contradict yourself. Prior you correctly refered to sedevacantism as a thesis or opinion, now you call it a new religion. If anyone has introduced a new religion with new dogmas, practices, sacraments, rites, saints, etc, it wasn’t sedevacantists. I can accept you or anyone else not agreeing with the sede opinion, but to label it a new religion is simply ridiculous and you are intelligent enough to know that. That label may work on scaring the befuddled NO conservative in the pew to remain with an imposter religion, but anyone who has taken the time to educate themselves knows that sedevacatism denies not one dogma or doctrine of the faith, it simply rejects the validity of the claimant to the papal office. This has happened many times in history where there was confusion as to who was or wasn’t Pope. When it was cleared up those who sided with the wrong pope were not condemned. Likewise, those who believe the See is vacant (if wrong) will never be condemned by the real church for we have never deviated from one article of the faith. Those who accept the heresies of V2 and the NO may not be so lucky since to accept either is to accept a heresy.
The Great Stalin: At some point many vocal R&R types mouth heresy, and you have done so here. Typically they either advocate neo-Gallicanism, or assert that the Cardinals have jurisdiction to judge the Pope in matters of faith, or as in your case imply that heretics are inside the Church.
–
You are not even factually correct regarding your claim about the import of St. Robert Bellarmine, for St. Robert only spoke about a Pope who apostatized after elevation. Pope Paul IV in his Bull Ex Cum Apostolatus Officio legislated that elevation of a heretic to the papal seat is null and void.
–
Reports indicate Bergoglio held heretical views from prior to his elevation, so he was always a usurper. If you are not satisfied with that, participants in his elevation admitted that they violated the laws governing the election in a manner that rendered it null. If you are not satisfied with either his pre-elevation heresies or the nullity of his election, he has confirmed that he holds heresies to this day.
–
In view of Vatican I, the only responsibility the hierarchy has in this situation is that of a sheriff in a civil property property proceeding – to post a notice that the judge – who in this case is the Almighty himself – has vacated the papal seat which is now vacant. To repeat, Vatican I foreclosed any other possible remedy to this situation since no inferior has any jurisdiction over the Pope. The problem here isn’t the sedes who recognize the situation for what it is, but the hierarchy who allow a non-Catholic to continue to act as if he has the authority to rule the Church.
When someone just spouts filth against someone else, and nothing else, one can reasonably surmise that the person has a problem. A balanced person shows it in his speech and writings.
No, I am not certain what your problem is. But several of your posts are very strange (you seem to think that Opus Dei and the SSPX are one and the same organisation), and none of them edifying.
That tells the reader a lot.
The homosexuals have an iron grip on much of the Church, as they do on the whole of western society (and not only. Thailand has 800,000 trannies I read recently).
I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Bergoglio were one of them. He clearly values foul creatures such as Daneels and other similar filth.
Amazing. My first thread and already I am being accused of heresy! It seems that making that accusation is all that the sedevacantists can do.
Let me state my position, it’s probably best to get this out of the way.
1. Vatican II’s documents are grossly in error, because they mix Catholicism with contradictory innovations, even from one sentence, one paragraph to another. This mix even Kasper has admitted exists and was the fruit of two opposing camps at the Council. The Council should be declared a false Council or, at the least, its documents and all the subsequent Magisterium based upon them should be declared to be null and void. It wouldn’t be the Church’s first failed Council and it could then slide into oblivion where it belongs.
2. Quite apart then from its documents, in my view Vatican II was a failed Council purely because it did not condemn Communism, the manic and devilish ideology which had already killed some 100 million people by the early 1960s (with another 100 million plus to come in China, Cambodia, Ethiopia and North Korea). A monstrous failure which condemns it utterly.
3. Yet the Council itself did not create a new religion. Liberal protestant, Masonic, quasi-Talmudic, Modernist types now abound, and these, as Louie rightly points out, are not Catholic at all. They came from the Council and this is another proof that the Council was false.
4. Yet the Catholic Church can never disappear because Our Lord Jesus Christ said it would last until the end of time. This is the bedrock on which I stand and I will not move from it. Where is it? Our Lord knows – in some in the Curia, some Bishops, some Cardinals, some priests, some laity. To claim that the Church is not the Church as do the sedevacantists is fatal to one’s soul and must be resisted, even in times of scandal, doubt, confusion and fear (and all of us suffer from these things, not just the sedevacantists!).
5. It may well be that Bergoglio is the False Prophet and the time of Anti-Christ is close. I myself think this is a possibility. But none of us know for sure.
6. Therefore the only thing to do is to love Our Lord, obey the Commandments, go to the Sacraments and pray – and leave the rest up to God. I have learned from my own blogging past that screaming about it all only destroys one’s own peace of soul and mind. “Nada de turbe” write St. Teresa of Avila. She was right.
TGS: “All they do is witter on ad nauseam about their thesis. That’s their only interest for it is their true religion.”
Which “thesis” are you referencing? The “Cassiciacum Thesis? This thesis is not American. It was the work of the French theologian, Bishop Michel Louis Guerard des Lauriers, O.P.. His thesis published with the title “Cahiers de Cassiciacum”, is defined in Wikipedia as follows: “Bishop Guerard des Lauriers’ thesis holds that the Vatican II popes succeed as “legal designees” to the papacy and continue the line of St. Peter “materially”. This means that the Vatican II “Novus Ordo Popes” are legitimate designees to be true popes but not “formally” and thereby lack “jurisdictional authority” because of the obstacle that they posit to the reception of the authority.
This is so because the Novus Ordo religion has never been authoritatively severed from the Catholic Church. It ought to be severed, but by law is not severed, just as a murderer ought to be prosecuted and condemned but possibly at times is not. Therefore, while those Novus Ordo members of the hierarchy who are in fact manifestly guilty of the sin of heresy and detached from the Mystical Body, nonetheless, remain free of a conviction of the crime of heresy owing to the absence of authoritative legal action, and thus they retain their legal memberships, designations and their purely legal posts.[4] They are not the authority, they are not true popes or true bishops, but are legally in the position to become true popes and bishops, if they should remove the obstacle to the reception of the authority of the office.
Because the power of designation to office pertains to the purely legal and material side of authority, the “Novus Ordo Popes” possess the power to legitimately designate to positions of power, until such time as this power is legally removed from them.
As a result, there is a “material” hierarchy in place, i.e., someone legally nominated to be a pope, and others legally nominated to be bishops, and others legally nominated to be electors of popes, but none of these has any jurisdiction, and obedience is owed to none of them.
Because they lack the authority, which is the form which makes them to be what they are, Bergoglio is a false pope and the bishops are false bishops. The cardinals are true electors, to the extent that they are legally nominated to be designators of the pope. But their role pertains to the material order of authority, the order of designation only.” [5]
Corollaries
1. There is no real sede vacante state in the Novus Ordo Popes since a man fills the role of potential Pope;
2. If the current potential Pope recants from Modernism and returns to Catholicism, he will complete the process and attain to the fullness of the papacy — all else being equal.
3. Arguably, the feud between those who say the Chair of St. Peter is totally empty (Sede Vacantists) and those who say it is totally full (Sede Plenist e.g. SSPX) can come to an end as the answer is neither of these two explanations as they compromise either the Perpetuity of succession or the doctrine of Idefectibility & Infallibility.
The terms sedeprivationism and sedeprivationist were coined by the late English Catholic William J. Morgan.
Proponents
Besides the late Bishop Michel Guerard des Lauriers, those Catholics prominent for subscribing to this explanation are: Bishop Robert McKenna, Bishop Donald Sanborn and Bishop Joseph Selway and possibly Bishop Robert Neville in the U.S.A., and Reverend Father Francesco Ricossa the head of the Institute of Mater Boni Consilii which publishes a review called Sodalitium, to which Bishop Geert Jan Stuyver belongs, located in Flanders as well as the cities of Turin, Milan and Rome in Italy. This Institute is dedicated to preserving and promoting this theological distinction of Lauriers.[6] It rejects the name of Sedevacantist.”
TGS: COROLLARY 3 is highly relevant to the useless “feuding” you are partially provoking here in the combox. Did Fr. Cekada not explain the thesis to you during your correspondence? Are you a Sedeprivationist? And finally, is “The Great Stalin” just another “clever” pseudonym used by “Secret King” BlunderAss?
It tells the reader with a brain that the sspx wants to model itself after another secret society with a pyramidal structure.
Sursum Corda:
Thanks for your comments. You and I are on the same page.
Keep your peace of mind and do not rally against the Ordination of child molesters. Sleep tight.
TGS: Are you a Sedeplenist or Sedeprivationist? “Arguably, the feud between those who say the Chair of St. Peter is totally empty (Sede Vacantists) and those who say it is totally full (SedePlenist e.g. SSPX) can come to an end as the answer is neither of these two explanations as they compromise either the Perpetuity of succession or the doctrine of Indefectibility & Infallibility.” Wikipedia
The question one wonders is …… Is that page in the Book of Life?
Why does it seem so important to you to have allies and be affirmed as having the moral high ground in the combox. Do you feel victimized? Do you feel the need to police the combox? Is “The Great Stalin” just another “clever” pseudonym used by “Secret King” BlunderAss? Why didn’t you give BlunderAss an “attaboy” when he came to your defense.?
The Church throughout history has had sinners in office, yet as bad as they were, the Holy Ghost protected the Popes and Church from promulgating error and heresy. Until Vatican 2. Now those who many assume occupy those offices are obviously not protected by the Holy Ghost from promulgating error and heresy both officially and unofficially. I do not see how you or anyone else can seriously dispute the fact that errors and heresy have officially been taught by the so called catholic church.
I am not American, so I don’t say “attaboy”. I speak English.
If you want to discuss what I have written, go ahead. I’ll respond and we’ll see where we get. But if you can’t do that, don’t.
2Vermont said this:
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“Furthermore he [TGS] continues to say that sedes say the Church no longer exists. Tom’s stated he is unsure where it is…that although it may be visible he can not see it at this time. To say he said it doesn’t exist is a lie. Let us remember that the Church was not visible to many in its beginning…that doesn’t mean it wasn’t visible. ”
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It is frequently seen where R&R types try to confound the faithful like Tom A. or 2Vermont by asking that they demonstrate through human reasoning how a doctrine of the Church is preserved and demonstrated as true. If Tom A. using human reasoning cannot demonstrate a plausible explanation of how the truth of the doctrine is preserved in reality, than whatever Tom believes is called into question. Any R&R type who argues in this manner and is familiar with the canons of VI is at best dense, and at worst a charlatan.
–
VI states:
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“3. On faith
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1. If anyone says that human reason is so independent that faith cannot be commanded by God: let him be anathema.
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* * *
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4. On faith and reason
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1. If anyone says that in divine revelation there are contained no true mysteries properly so-called, but that all the dogmas of the faith can be understood and demonstrated by properly trained reason from natural principles: let him be anathema.”
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Tom A believes the doctrine but does not understand how it is preserved at the present time because it defies his reasoning to demonstrate how it is preserved i.e., it is a mystery. Tom A is not required to provide an argument demonstrated by human reasoning to satisfy anyone, and anyone who requires Tom A to do so is anathema. We believe because we are commanded to believe and assent to the command, not because we are persuaded by arguments based on human reasoning.
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My view on the situation is that a true Pope is the best guarantor of the visibility of the Church, for it is easy to point to the visible Church when there is a true Pope – any Church in union with a true Pope demonstrates the visibility of the Church. Human pride and the stiff-necked attitude of those who would have things their way and not the way of the Almighty (i.e., the hierarchy) is the main reason why we have a problem at the present time. A true Pope and not a usurper is the visible sign of unity and the proximate rule of faith. All canards like that used to attack the faithful like Tom A. would evaporate like so much morning mist in the coming midday sun with the installation of a true Pope.
TGS, it sounds like you advocate a defectible church. It also sounds like you advocate an invisible church tucked away in some curial department. I can tell that you and I see and observe the same institution and realize when and where it has erred. My point is that this error cannot have come from the Holy Spotless Bride of Christ where your position is that it has come from the Holy Spotless Bride of Christ. If the Holy Spotless Bride of Christ can poison her children with error now, how do we know she hasnt been poisoning us for the last 1985 years?
Excellent. You have made it clear you are not a Sede Vacantist, defined as the Chair of St. Peter is totally empty. So, are you a (SedePlenist e.g. SSPX) who say sit is totally full? Or are you a Sedeprivationist (Cassiacum Thesis) who holds that the Vatican II popes succeed as “legal designees” to the papacy and continue the line of St. Peter only “materially”? This means that the Vatican II “Novus Ordo Popes” are legitimate designees to be true popes but not “formally” and thereby lack “jurisdictional authority” because of the obstacle that they posit to the reception of the authority.
I am a Maronite Catholic from South Africa.
All I can say is Thank God for the SSPX
They are the only Chapel that say the TLM
They are not perfect but they sure try their best to work for the salvation of souls.
They are such an oasis in the Catholic Church.
God Bless
Good , but I would tell one and all , watch your children, who they are with and what is being told to them. If it is truly Catholic fine ,but of it is of a political or sexual nature proceed with caution.
If you choose to define yourself Lenny as one of this or that shade of some imagined relationship to the Holy See, and give each shade a name, you are free to do so.
As for me, I’m just a Catholic.
Tom, are you just utterly blind and deaf or do you have a problem reading English? Perhaps it’s not your first language?
Once again: no, my position is of course not that the Catholic Church has taught error, but that the Anti-Church, the cuckoo church passing itself off as the Catholic Church has taught and is teaching error.
The dividing line is not institutional, but SPIRITUAL. Try please to grasp that! These men are so utterly befuddled that as Bishop Schneider has said, the ignorance of the Faith among even Bishops and Cardinals is vast. Too much de Chardin, too much New Theology, too much desire to please the world, too much out-reach of entirely the wrong sort.
Instead of being a sedevacantist standing outside the tent pissing in, you should be on your knees 24/7 praying for them.
TGS, I appreciate your comments and your position statement expresses what I’ve been feeling for a long time. This one line speaks volumes:
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“The dividing line is not institutional, but SPIRITUAL.”
The Great Stalin, you may not be American but I would venture to guess you are a millennial. Young people lack basic people skills. They have spent more time talking to LCD screens than actual people and get triggered very quickly. It’s why instead of conducting polite conversation or debate, they resort to obnoxious sarcasm when they hear something they don’t like.
And if you aren’t a millennial, I suggest you take a break from the internet and regroup. I assure you there are people here who do value opposing arguments but tune you out when they hear infant speak.
I would say that the value of his “opposing arguments” far, far outweigh any deficits in “polite” speak, unlike your “ad hominem” post. Leave the moderating of the forum to the owner, and state YOUR position.
So the See is not vacant because an anti-pope from the anti church is sitting in what should be the real pope’s seat? Is that what you are saying? And we catholics in the pews need to have some sort of decoder ring or something when Rome speaks in order to decipher its meaning and whether or not we need to assent. Yea, that makes a lot of sense. To all those who think Mr. Stalin is a breath of fresh air, this is the kind of nonsense one has to contort ones reason and intellect
to in order to explain how a heretical non catholic can be head of the Catholic Church. The more bizarre Bergolio gets, the more bizarre the R&R camp gets to keep their Pope and ignore him too. Your scenario is simply the most stupidest thing I have read on this blog site.
Thought you may have considered the Sedeprivationist perspective since you said you “looked at sedevacantism three or four years ago; corresponded with Father Cekada, read a great deal.” Was interested in the reasons you called it a “tempting” thesis. Glad you chose Catholicism.
I don’t have “a position”. I am trying to learn and keep an open mind…to a point. I’m not interested in the opinions of children. And he speaks like one.
Excellent post.
Born the year of the Cuban Missile Crisis into a family that was Traditionalist by 1968.
Lenny, I found it tempting because I was looking for an explanation for Bergoglio, this gargoyle who froze my blood the moment he stepped into the loggia. I was also appreciative of Fr. Cekada’s obvious intelligence after becoming disheartened by the low intellectual level of much Traditionalist blog comment.
Yet after around a year the temptation had been replaced by repulsion. Sedevacantism leads one straight out of the Church. Sedevacantists are as here, on AKA, full of sneering deafness and blindness, if that’s not a.mixed metaphor too far.
How can one think well of a thesis that leads one to hate the Church? It cannot be correct for that reason alone.
An empty chair does not compromise indefectibility since the Church can and has survived before without a Pope. True, this interregnum is longer by far than the others, but no where was it ever taught how long an interregnum could last before the Church defected. You are applying your standard of defectibility to the equation when the term has never been defined by the Church.
You forgot to mention dogmatic sedevacantism running amok in the comboxes here as well.
Too many self-arrogated little popes-wanna-bes and armchair theologians and internet detectives on here.
Too many Marthas.
Too many little Peters declaring “Absit a te, Domine: non erit tibi hoc.” when confronted with the suffering of Christ’s Church.
Strike the shepherds, scatter the sheep, and end up in a Hobbesian war of all against all in the end- which is to say hell.
The Bad Guy Below learns from his mistakes. But do we learn from ours?
The essence of dogmatic sedevacantist position is that of Peter in the 16th chapter of St. Matthew’s Gospel. It is the refusal to accept that, like Our Lord, the Church certainly has to suffer and, I personally would dare to say and understand full well that I am being daring in the strict theological sense of the word, even undergo a sort of death. Just as Our Lord did.
Treading theologically deep water here, I know. Best to be careful.
We certainly do need a Pope. But the Pope is bound by Tradition. He safeguards it, or at least should do so if he’s acting like a real Pope.
But he’s also human. Just like you and me.
How does one know if a pope is succeeding or failing in his obligation to safeguard Tradition? Well…know Tradition and fall back on it in all times and all places good or bad. Be as St. John Chrysostom and ask “Is it Tradition? Then ask no more”.
In other words, don’t get caught in a whirlwind of endless debate, hairsplitting argument and, regrettably, very un-Christian infighting such as these comboxes engender in this confused and confusing time we all live in. Fall back on what we have received through Tradition. That’s all we will have in the end anyhow. We’re not promised a Pope- we’re promised Jesus Christ. His words will not pass away, unlike a pope’s words.
That’s a great vision, but none of what you lay out is humanly possible.
Note the word “humanly”.
That’s the difference between the early Christians, in particularly the martyrs, and contemporary Christians.
The former knew that Christ worked through them, with them and in them through faith (reminds one of the conclusion of the Roman Canon of Mass). That’s how they were able to endure persecution even unto a terrible death.
To a majority of well-meaning Catholics now, faith is a merely emotional, sensual and appetitive “personal experience”. It is about “my experience” and “my participation” and “my voice”. Me, me and more me.
It is a merely human thing to them.
But when all is said and done, nothing in the order of creation is “merely human”. We’re in the middle of a war between God and the Adversary, and there is no middle ground.
This destruction of the very essence of faith in the hearts of so many is just the latest assault in this war. I would call it an evil spell. And all the science and argumentation and other merely human, worldly weapons in the world cannot undo an evil spell. Only grace, prayer, mortification, privation, detachment can break an evil spell.
In other words- fuga mundi.
How many people now, seeing that something is horribly wrong but not fully seeing that it is not a human solution which is in order, are willing to give up all flee to the desert and break the spell, just like the early hermits and monastics did before them?
How many well-meaning, “Christian” and even “Catholic” people are nonetheless deluded, even unknowingly to themselves, by the most pernicious error of “building a better world” at the cost of their own and other’s eternal salvation? How many have forgot to seek first the Kingdom?
How many rich men (and are not we ALL in western societies and nations “rich men” now?) are willing to sell all their things and come after Christ?
How many?
Please define “dogmatic sedevacantism”.
Look: all of can be real men, and some of us can afford to help Christ in a special way. Hire a Private Eye to expose your gay Bishop and publish the photos and findings on an anonymous blog. Let’s out this monsters, who are enemies of the Church and in Schism with Christ!
^seconded.
Yes, Louie maybe should think about some house-cleaning.
It seems to me that the laity’s role in stopping the canonization of Paul VI on October 14th is easily along lines of St Nicholas punching Arius in the face. I think we need to bring Father Luigi Villa and his work into public view in whatever way we can.
–You won’t be discussing Pope Francis (not that that is a problem at akaCatholic).
–Much of the research about Fr. Villa and what he uncovered has already been done 100%.
–Credibility is already high for Fr. Villa because of the Doctors von Hildebrand’s connection to him and his magazine, Chiesa Viva, from 1970 to 1977.
–Fr. Villa and his work has the stamp of approval of not only St. Padre Pio but Pope Pius XII.
–Disenfranchised Catholics are having their own #WalkAway ‘woke’ moments and the question of Paul VI’s “sanctity” because of his well-known homosexuality will be and is a coalescing issue.
–In 2012, ALL the Episcopal Conferences (including the USCCB) were sent Fr. Villa’s Letter to the Cardinals as were ALL the Cardinals, specific individual bishops, and members of the laity. In other words as with Cardinal McCarrick, “EVERYBODY KNEW!”. 1
–Again, tagging on to “everybody knew”, in February 1998 Paul VI, Beatified? was released and “the first 5,000 copies [were sent]. Pope, Cardinals, Bishops and thousands of Italian Priests were given a copy of this book simultaneously. From Rome, someone told us that the Vicar of the Pope, Cardinal Ruini, was furious. He wondered who had financed the printing and mailing of these books, free of charge, to thousands of members of the Italian Clergy. When Father Villa told me [Dr. Franco Adessa] about this telephone call, smiling, he said: ‘We should respond to the Vicar of His Holiness, that the lenders are three Persons and their names are: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.’ “(FINAL Who REALLY Was Father Luigi Villa p.38)2
My point is that just because the population in general did not know about Paul VI, exactly like with Cardinal McCarrick, everybody else DID know.
I can just see the Resistance Chapters around the country protesting in front of their chanceries with signs like: Canonize Paul VI–the Sodomite Saint?! NO way!!!! The veil will be lifted and the false ecumenical dominoes of Vatican II will fall. I see this as the blessing that can come from the evil in the hierarchy.
https://padrepioandchiesaviva.com/uploads/Letter_to_Cardinals.pdf
2. https://padrepioandchiesaviva.com/uploads/FINAL_Who_REALLY_was_Fr._Luigi_Villa.pdf
Sorry, TGS, not relevant to this comment–just trying to get attention. I hope you don’t mind. You may even already know of Father Luigi Villa and his work at Cheisa Viva. Anyway:
It seems to me that the laity’s role in stopping the canonization of Paul VI on October 14th is easily along lines of St Nicholas punching Arius in the face. I think we need to bring Father Luigi Villa and his work into public view in whatever way we can.
–You won’t be discussing Pope Francis (not that that is a problem at akaCatholic).
–Much of the research about Fr. Villa and what he uncovered has already been done 100%.
–Credibility is already high for Fr. Villa because of the Doctors von Hildebrand’s connection to him and his magazine, Chiesa Viva, from 1970 to 1977.
–Fr. Villa and his work has the stamp of approval of not only St. Padre Pio but Pope Pius XII.
–Disenfranchised Catholics are having their own #WalkAway ‘woke’ moments and the question of Paul VI’s “sanctity” because of his well-known homosexuality will be and is a coalescing issue.
–In 2012, ALL the Episcopal Conferences (including the USCCB) were sent Fr. Villa’s Letter to the Cardinals as were ALL the Cardinals, specific individual bishops, and members of the laity. In other words as with Cardinal McCarrick, “EVERYBODY KNEW!”. 1
–Again, tagging on to “everybody knew”, in February 1998 Paul VI, Beatified? was released and “the first 5,000 copies [were sent]. Pope, Cardinals, Bishops and thousands of Italian Priests were given a copy of this book simultaneously. From Rome, someone told us that the Vicar of the Pope, Cardinal Ruini, was furious. He wondered who had financed the printing and mailing of these books, free of charge, to thousands of members of the Italian Clergy. When Father Villa told me [Dr. Franco Adessa] about this telephone call, smiling, he said: ‘We should respond to the Vicar of His Holiness, that the lenders are three Persons and their names are: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.’ “(FINAL Who REALLY Was Father Luigi Villa p.38)2
My point is that just because the population in general did not know about Paul VI, exactly like with Cardinal McCarrick, everybody else DID know.
I can just see the Resistance Chapters around the country protesting in front of their chanceries with signs like: Canonize Paul VI–the Sodomite Saint?! NO way!!!! The veil will be lifted and the false ecumenical dominoes of Vatican II will fall. I see this as the blessing that can come from the evil in the hierarchy.
https://padrepioandchiesaviva.com/uploads/Letter_to_Cardinals.pdf
2. https://padrepioandchiesaviva.com/uploads/FINAL_Who_REALLY_was_Fr._Luigi_Villa.pdf
Sorry, Sweep. My reply is not relevant to this comment of yours but to another somewhere in “thread land”. You may already know of Father Luigi Villa. Who knows it might have been you who put me onto his work. Anyway, here goes:
It seems to me that the laity’s role in stopping the canonization of Paul VI on October 14th is easily along lines of St Nicholas punching Arius in the face. I think we need to bring Father Luigi Villa and his work into public view in whatever way we can.
–You won’t be discussing Pope Francis (not that that is a problem at akaCatholic).
–Much of the research about Fr. Villa and what he uncovered has already been done 100%.
–Credibility is already high for Fr. Villa because of the Doctors von Hildebrand’s connection to him and his magazine, Chiesa Viva, from 1970 to 1977.
–Fr. Villa and his work has the stamp of approval of not only St. Padre Pio but Pope Pius XII.
–Disenfranchised Catholics are having their own #WalkAway ‘woke’ moments and the question of Paul VI’s “sanctity” because of his well-known homosexuality will be and is a coalescing issue.
–In 2012, ALL the Episcopal Conferences (including the USCCB) were sent Fr. Villa’s Letter to the Cardinals as were ALL the Cardinals, specific individual bishops, and members of the laity. In other words as with Cardinal McCarrick, “EVERYBODY KNEW!”. 1
–Again, tagging on to “everybody knew”, in February 1998 Paul VI, Beatified? was released and “the first 5,000 copies [were sent]. Pope, Cardinals, Bishops and thousands of Italian Priests were given a copy of this book simultaneously. From Rome, someone told us that the Vicar of the Pope, Cardinal Ruini, was furious. He wondered who had financed the printing and mailing of these books, free of charge, to thousands of members of the Italian Clergy. When Father Villa told me [Dr. Franco Adessa] about this telephone call, smiling, he said: ‘We should respond to the Vicar of His Holiness, that the lenders are three Persons and their names are: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.’ “(FINAL Who REALLY Was Father Luigi Villa p.38)2
My point is that just because the population in general did not know about Paul VI, exactly like with Cardinal McCarrick, everybody else DID know.
I can just see the Resistance Chapters around the country protesting in front of their chanceries with signs like: Canonize Paul VI–the Sodomite Saint?! NO way!!!! The veil will be lifted and the false ecumenical dominoes of Vatican II will fall. I see this as the blessing that can come from the evil in the hierarchy.
https://padrepioandchiesaviva.com/uploads/Letter_to_Cardinals.pdf
2. https://padrepioandchiesaviva.com/uploads/FINAL_Who_REALLY_was_Fr._Luigi_Villa.pdf
Sorry, Lenny B. I see that you post frequently here and I wanted to get your attention. My reply does not apply to your comment. Please forgive me, but I hope that you will read the following:
It seems to me that the laity’s role in stopping the canonization of Paul VI on October 14th is easily along lines of St Nicholas punching Arius in the face. I think we need to bring Father Luigi Villa and his work into public view in whatever way we can.
–You won’t be discussing Pope Francis (not that that is a problem at akaCatholic).
–Much of the research about Fr. Villa and what he uncovered has already been done 100%.
–Credibility is already high for Fr. Villa because of the Doctors von Hildebrand’s connection to him and his magazine, Chiesa Viva, from 1970 to 1977.
–Fr. Villa and his work has the stamp of approval of not only St. Padre Pio but Pope Pius XII.
–Disenfranchised Catholics are having their own #WalkAway ‘woke’ moments and the question of Paul VI’s “sanctity” because of his well-known homosexuality will be and is a coalescing issue.
–In 2012, ALL the Episcopal Conferences (including the USCCB) were sent Fr. Villa’s Letter to the Cardinals as were ALL the Cardinals, specific individual bishops, and members of the laity. In other words as with Cardinal McCarrick, “EVERYBODY KNEW!”. 1
–Again, tagging on to “everybody knew”, in February 1998 Paul VI, Beatified? was released and “the first 5,000 copies [were sent]. Pope, Cardinals, Bishops and thousands of Italian Priests were given a copy of this book simultaneously. From Rome, someone told us that the Vicar of the Pope, Cardinal Ruini, was furious. He wondered who had financed the printing and mailing of these books, free of charge, to thousands of members of the Italian Clergy. When Father Villa told me [Dr. Franco Adessa] about this telephone call, smiling, he said: ‘We should respond to the Vicar of His Holiness, that the lenders are three Persons and their names are: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.’ “(FINAL Who REALLY Was Father Luigi Villa p.38)2
My point is that just because the population in general did not know about Paul VI, exactly like with Cardinal McCarrick, everybody else DID know.
I can just see the Resistance Chapters around the country protesting in front of their chanceries with signs like: Canonize Paul VI–the Sodomite Saint?! NO way!!!! The veil will be lifted and the false ecumenical dominoes of Vatican II will fall. I see this as the blessing that can come from the evil in the hierarchy.
https://padrepioandchiesaviva.com/uploads/Letter_to_Cardinals.pdf
2. https://padrepioandchiesaviva.com/uploads/FINAL_Who_REALLY_was_Fr._Luigi_Villa.pdf
Please forgive me, Tom, for my forwardness. I see that you frequently comment here and I am trying to get your attention. My reply does not apply to your comment, but I hope you will continue reading anyway.
It seems to me that the laity’s role in stopping the canonization of Paul VI on October 14th is easily along lines of St Nicholas punching Arius in the face. I think we need to bring Father Luigi Villa and his work into public view in whatever way we can.
–You won’t be discussing Pope Francis (not that that is a problem at akaCatholic).
–Much of the research about Fr. Villa and what he uncovered has already been done 100%.
–Credibility is already high for Fr. Villa because of the Doctors von Hildebrand’s connection to him and his magazine, Chiesa Viva, from 1970 to 1977.
–Fr. Villa and his work has the stamp of approval of not only St. Padre Pio but Pope Pius XII.
–Disenfranchised Catholics are having their own #WalkAway ‘woke’ moments and the question of Paul VI’s “sanctity” because of his well-known homosexuality will be and is a coalescing issue.
–In 2012, ALL the Episcopal Conferences (including the USCCB) were sent Fr. Villa’s Letter to the Cardinals as were ALL the Cardinals, specific individual bishops, and members of the laity. In other words as with Cardinal McCarrick, “EVERYBODY KNEW!”. 1
–Again, tagging on to “everybody knew”, in February 1998 Paul VI, Beatified? was released and “the first 5,000 copies [were sent]. Pope, Cardinals, Bishops and thousands of Italian Priests were given a copy of this book simultaneously. From Rome, someone told us that the Vicar of the Pope, Cardinal Ruini, was furious. He wondered who had financed the printing and mailing of these books, free of charge, to thousands of members of the Italian Clergy. When Father Villa told me [Dr. Franco Adessa] about this telephone call, smiling, he said: ‘We should respond to the Vicar of His Holiness, that the lenders are three Persons and their names are: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.’ “(FINAL Who REALLY Was Father Luigi Villa p.38)2
My point is that just because the population in general did not know about Paul VI, exactly like with Cardinal McCarrick, everybody else DID know.
I can just see the Resistance Chapters around the country protesting in front of their chanceries with signs like: Canonize Paul VI–the Sodomite Saint?! NO way!!!! The veil will be lifted and the false ecumenical dominoes of Vatican II will fall. I see this as the blessing that can come from the evil in the hierarchy.
https://padrepioandchiesaviva.com/uploads/Letter_to_Cardinals.pdf
2. https://padrepioandchiesaviva.com/uploads/FINAL_Who_REALLY_was_Fr._Luigi_Villa.pdf
You are right of course and this is why the Vatican is actively seeking to destroy what is left of faithful, contemplative, or traditional leaning Institutes. They have suppressed several and are hunting down more. Look what those ones did to the FFI and FSI and are still wanting to crush their founder even more and change the charism so that there is no consecration to Our Lady and also eliminate the vow of poverty! Priests who speak and preach the truth are being thrown under the bus by their compromising/weak bishops.
The seminary of the FFI was closed only months after the present pope came to power and on the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception so as to slap Our Lady in the face too. Those wicked ones hate Our Lady although every once in a while say something Catholic about her. They do not care for souls nor are they faithful to Christ. It is an agenda of long standing and the corruption, infiltration, and filth are well ingrained. God Himself must much out this filthy stable.
A better book is The Godmother.