On December 19, Archbishop Carlo Viganò issued his latest scathing indictment against the impious imposter known as “Francis.” Here, we will highlight some of the good, the bad and the ugly of his roughly 2,000 word missive.
The Good
Following Archbishop Viganò’s initial bombshell, I suggested that his testimony served to indict – albeit inadvertently and with palpable reluctance – not only Francis, but John Paul II and Benedict XVI as well.
Whether consciously or not, acknowledging John Paul II’s culpability comes far too close to admitting that the conciliar church’s Santo dei tutti Santi isn’t really a saint, and from there it is but a small step toward acknowledging that the Almighty Council that he labored to implement was a mortal disaster in its own right … The problem at its core is not the homosexual network per se, it is the abandonment of faith; the Council, the new Mass, the dethronement of Christ the King, etc.
Although he has yet to name John Paul II and Benedict XVI as co-conspirators in the shipwreck that is Modernist Rome, Archbishop Viganò took some giant steps in that direction in his latest memorandum. He writes:
For more than six years now we have been poisoned by a false magisterium, a sort of extreme synthesis of all the conciliar misconceptions and post-conciliar errors that have been relentlessly propagated, without most of us noticing.
In spite of his focus on the last six years and the reluctance still evident in his choice of words, that Viganò is willing to admit “conciliar misconceptions” represents something of a breakthrough. But wait, it gets better. He continued:
The Second Vatican Council opened not only Pandora’s Box but also Overton’s Window, and so gradually that we did not realize the upheavals that had been carried out, the real nature of the reforms and their dramatic consequences, nor did we suspect who was really at the helm of that gigantic subversive operation, which the modernist Cardinal Suenens called “the 1789 of the Catholic Church.” [Emphasis added]
Viganò does not say who he believes was really at the helm of the Modernist takeover of Rome, but Catholic common sense suggests that he is alluding to the Devil.
Elsewhere in the text, his words seem to confirm as much when he writes:
Those of us who have not let ourselves be deceived by these enemies of the Church enfeoffed in the ecclesial Body, must unite and together face off against the Evil One.
It would seem only a matter of time before Archbishop Viganò will be moved to admit that both John Paul II and Benedict XVI were not only agents in, but leaders of, the gigantic subversive operation that was launched at Vatican Council II.
If what has been said is not noteworthy enough, he further underscored the complicity of these men as he continued:
Thus, over these last decades, the Mystical Body has been slowly drained of its lifeblood through unstoppable bleeding: the Sacred Deposit of Faith has gradually been squandered, dogmas denatured, worship secularized and gradually profaned, morality sabotaged, the priesthood vilified, the Eucharistic Sacrifice protestantized and transformed into a convivial Banquet.
So it is that Archbishop Viganò is coming to terms with the undeniable reality that the present crisis isn’t all about Francis; rather, it’s part of a decades-long process of destruction. What’s more, he acknowledged that the so-called reform of the sacred liturgy gave birth to a protestantized communal meal that supplanted the Holy Sacrifice of the Traditional Roman Rite.
NOTE: In spite of what has been stated, Archbishop Viganò still could not help but refer to “St. John Paul II.” Evidently, old heroes die hard, indeed.
Viganò even went on to condemn the Novus Ordo by name:
The conciliar disaster of the Novus Ordo Missae is undergoing further modernization, including the introduction of “Dew” in the Eucharistic Canon instead of the mention of the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Most Holy Trinity.
Had Viganò gone on record with comments such as these thirty years ago there is no chance whatsoever that he would have climbed the hierarchical ladder – from priest, to bishop, to Apostolic Nuncio – as he has.
The question is, of what institution did he so rise? This brings us to…
The Bad
Archbishop Viganò laments, in light of the citations above:
Now the Church is lifeless… With unprecedented acceleration, thanks to the subversive drive of this pontificate, supported by the powerful Jesuit apparatus, a deadly coup de grace [death blow] is being delivered to the Church…
What Archbishop Viganò cannot yet see, or will not yet admit, is that the institution he is describing is not the Catholic Church; it is but a counterfeit church operating under her name. Even so, he comes close as he writes elsewhere:
We now have before our eyes: a Catholic Church that is no longer Catholic; a container emptied of its authentic content and filled with borrowed goods.
Obviously, a church that is no longer Catholic is not the Catholic Church! The same must be said of a church that is lifeless and emptied.
The Ugly
Archbishop Viganò accurately describes Jorge Bergoglio as a man who:
… seeks to violate the Sacred Deposit of Faith and to disfigure the Catholic Face of the Bride of Christ by word and action… impugned the August Queen and Immaculate Mother of God … demolishes the most sacred dogmas.
He also plainly calls him a liar and a Modernist! Although such a one is clearly not Catholic, Archbishop Viganò still refers to him as “the Supreme Pontiff Bergoglio… Papa Bergoglio… Pope Bergolgio.”
Throughout the text, Viganò conspicuously refrains from calling him “Francis.” Does this perhaps suggest that a day is coming when he will join his voice to the growing number of faithful who cannot but acknowledge that Francis is an anti-pope?
Only time will tell.
This is exactly what amazes me about Benevacantists. Evidently, they must believe that the Church all of a sudden got Herself an Overton window. Am I the only Catholic who believes that the Catholic Church is literally the only institution on the face of the earth that ever was or will be NOT at all susceptible to the Overton Window? These people don’t seem to agree with me, they seem to think that in 1958, the Holy Catholic Church started to decay just like every other body on earth does. And now their ticked off that Jorge came along, ripped off the bandages to uncover a nasty mess of pestilence. So they want him out but they’re happy enough to be in a church that is dying a little slower; they like that. Crazy. And I’m sorry but you are no hero if you are a fake cardinal pointing out that the Catholic Church is in Her death throes; that actually makes you a pretty shifty enemy of the Catholic Church. The New Order is in it’s death throes, raping boys left and right, worshipping demons, producing sacreligious vulgar art, desecrating our church buildings, teaching heresy and promoting apostacy, but these people are still calling it the Catholic Church? Don’t they believe in the Holy Ghost? How can anyone believe this?
Louie,
Vigano seems to be taking leading place in return to Faith, overtaking Burke and Schneider. (I follow none and watch whole situation through posts and comments of others.) Vigano, surely not perfect, is going in right direction. I guess, eventually somebody else will take over, somebody we will like much more but works of men like Vigano gives necessary background.
What concerns me is some elements that lately keep popping up out of your texts. Can you elaborate, on phrase: Obviously, a church that is no longer Catholic is not the Catholic Church! . Not necessary now, answering my comment, but in near future, maybe as separate article. Whatever you wish. This trend I observe in your position, I hope just imaginary, is really worrisome.
Merry Christmas Mr. Verrecchio. May God bless and keep you. You are a good man and a gift to Catholics. I keep you in my prayers.
Vigano sounds an awful lot like Abp Lefebrve. He too saw the problem and the corruption yet still clung to the notion that the source of all these errors came from the Catholic Church.
Thank you, Louie, for nailing “John Paul II” and “Benedict XVI” as the (my words here) main culprits in implementing the horrors of the satanic “Second Vatican Council.”
“It would seem only a matter of time before Archbishop Viganò will be moved to admit that both John Paul II and Benedict XVI were not only agents in, but leaders of, the gigantic subversive operation that was launched at Vatican Council II.”
And, as such, also false popes.
Dear Mr Verrechio, may you and your family have a holy, grace-filled, joyful Christmas-tide. Thank you for your sincere efforts to defend God and His Holy Church and the Faith and moral law in this time of Great Apostasy and diabolic disorientation.
A very blessed joyful Christmas to all sincere Catholics and seekers of the True Faith who read AKA Catholic (Harvesting the Fruit as was). You too, Mr and Mrs Indignus Famulus (miss you both and wish you could make contact here again).
May Almighty God preserve us to death in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith.
Viva Cristo Rey!
Your sister in Christ,
Lynda Finneran
[I will try to stay away tomorrow, Christmas Eve, as it is a holy day of Fast and Abstinence.]
Merry Christmas Louie and all here. Thank you so much for all you do, I really look forward to reading your unique perspective on things, your analytical skills are that good. The force is strong in you, grasshopper! Sorry, that’s mixing Star Wars and Kung Fu. Merry Christmas one and all! We can still find joy in the birth of Jesus, they can’t take that joy away from us, ever. Buon Natale! Joyeux Noel! I’ve spelled them wrong, but you get my drift.
Merry Christmas to you too Evangeline
Thank you Evangeline, Happy Christmas to you as well. Almighty God bless you.
In the Temple, St. Simeon took our new born Lord Jesus into his arms and praised Almighty God, and proclaimed, my eyes have seen salvation.
M.C., “Obviously, a church that is no longer Catholic is not the Catholic Church!” An example that i use, is that False Francis can not be the human, head representative of Jesus the Christ and oppose Jesus the Christ at the same time.
False Francis can not walk north and south at the same time.
Christ our King teaches us, every man is either with Him or against Him. Therefore, every priest and bishop who leads men into: perverse relationships, Muhammad’s demonic mosques, synagogues of satan, adultery, worship with pagans… although these priests and bishops name themselves as Catholics, obviously they are not. They are a vile gang, a church of anti-Christs leaching from our great Church, their priesly looking outfits are just costumes. They are false shepherds.
Jesus Is THE SINGULAR WAY to Life, Almighty God. He Is The Truth, His Church Proclaims His Holy Word. By the fruit they offer, you shall know them.
Vigano: “We now have before our eyes: a Catholic Church that is no longer Catholic; a container emptied of its authentic content and filled with borrowed goods.”
In other words, he believes that the Catholic Church is defectible. Yes, Louie, he (and others) need to come to terms with that. The Catholic Church can not stop being Catholic. It can not be “emptied of its authentic content”.
A church claiming to be the Catholic Church can, however.
As my nemesis IC often says, “something cannot be and not be at the same time.” Vigano is blind when he says, “the Catholic Church is no longer Catholic.” It is a ridiculous statement. What he is admitting is the fact that the organization he holds rank in, is not the Catholic Church.
Tom A- I agree. The institutional “catholic” church is no longer Catholic. However, the Catholic Faith is alive for Faithful Catholic who believe in Her teachings and tenets. Our Lord, the Invisible Head of His Church, will not abandon His flock. Vigano should officially and publicly remove himself from the V2 pseudo church. Now that would be a REAL statement. Wishing a peaceful and holy Christmas to Louie and those who comment here with good will in their hearts.
Interesting fact: Archbishop Carlo Maria V. was ordained a priest, March 1968.
False Pope Paul the 6th, changed the rite for the ordination of priests just a few months later, June 1968.
These Vatican2 subversive creatures, attacked every foundational greatness of our Church: the Mass, the Holy Bible, the priesthood, the entirety of our infallible Faith.
Jesus is Salvation, and greater than false popes.
An, “anti-pope”, must confront a true Pope, as the Vicar of Jesus the Christ in this most wretched world, as that simply is the historic precedent for an, “anti-pope”. No one can demonstrate otherwise, as the contrary is not the historic reality, as it is. Amen. Jorge Bergoglio is NOT an, “anti-pope”, clearly, as if he is, demonstrate then who the true Pope is, as the Vicar of Christ, the one who Jorge Bergoglio must oppose, if indeed he is an, “anti-pope”. Amen. This understood, Vigano, is no more, “Archbishop Vigano”, than Jorge Bergoglio is, “Pope Francis”, of the Catholic Church, as established by the Son of God. Amen. Alleluia. If you believe him to be, “Archbishop Vigano”, then you must accept Jorge Bergoglio as, “Pope Francis”, as you simply CANNOT have a, “true Shepherd as Bishop”, of the Catholic Church, while having a, “false pope”, who is not Catholic, yet alone a priest and a Bishop, as selected by the Holy Ghost Himself, which is a deFide teaching of the true Catholic Church. To suggest contra is heresy, placing one then outside the Catholic Church as a non-Catholic thus, who has no position in the Church to proclaim anything that the true Church proclaims. This is all simple logical progression. Amen. In caritas.
In Caritas,
Where, in Tradition, does it say that the Holy Ghost selects the Pope? That would seem to be an affront to the free will of the electors. Is it not rather taught that the Holy Ghost provides a negative protection.
While I’m here, I’d like to ask you a couple more questions, if I may.
You have repeatedly stated that the Abomination of Desolation is taught by the Church Fathers to be the abolition of the Holy Mass. Can you provide sources for that, since it would be a key issue for anyone considering Sedevacantism?
Finally, you say there are no more Masses or Holy Orders “in the cosmos”, but what about the Orthodox Divine Liturgies and Holy Orders, which, as far as I’m aware, were regarded by the pre-VII Church to be valid.
Yours, a poor miscreant fool with darkened intellect.
And a Happy Christmas to you.
Pascendi,
In the Original and True and ONLY Douay Rheims New Testament of 1582, the Annotations for St, Matthew Ch. 24 explain the Abomination of Desolation. Perhaps later I will type the entire commentary, but for now the last words are:
“Hippo. de Antichristo. By which it is plain that the Heretics of those days be the special forerunners of Antichrist.”
And margin note:
“The abolishing of the holy Sacrifice of the Mass by AntiChrist and his ministers.”
Now, who was it that abolished the public and Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?
I should say, “WHO and WHAT was it…”
Pascendi: Caritas states that there can not be a true bishop while there is a false pope. Why not? Of course one, ten or a 100 bishops can remain faithful to our Lord Jesus, while there is a false pope.
Did every single priest and bishop become evil, in 1965, the day Vatican 2 finished?
Jesus proclaimed, whenever 2 or 3 come together in My Name, I Am with them.
Since the New Mass began, i think 1968, our Lord Jesus could accept or reject each individual Mass, each prayer, as He pleases.
Presently, the USCCB uses a false bible at their masses throughout the Disunited States, written by both protestants and Catholics: the Revised New American Bible. When i learned this, i stopped attending the N.O.
Jesus Is Life.
Dear Pascendi,
What I wrote above, as specifically, is that the Holy Ghost Himself selects, as He constitutes the Bishops of the Holy Catholic Church, as they are the Successors of the Apostles, who themselves were selected as constituted by Jesus the Christ. Amen. Alleluia. This, the deFide teaching as Authoritatively commanded in, “Divinum Illud Munus”, as Authored by Pope Leo XIII, 9 May, 1897. Amen. Alleluia. The Vicar of Christ cannot himself fall into error nor heresy, as per the infallible as Authoritative teaching of the Singular Vatican Council in its Fourth and Final Session, 18 July, 1870, as recorded now in this space innumerable times. The Council declared that Blessed Peter and his Successors were Gifted the divine Charisms of, “….truth and never failing faith…”, such that they may protect the flock from the poisonous food of error as heresy. Amen. Any man demonstrating error or heresy in matters of Faith and Morality, simply CANNOT be the Vicar of Christ, deFide thus, no matter how many poor souls each on their own sure as certain road to Hell believe him to be, simply because he controls the edifice and dresses the part, thus holding in his possession the metaphysical accidentals of the former Holy Roman Catholic Church Amen. Alleluia.
What I’ve written about the inerrant interpretation, as in unanimity, of the Early Church Fathers and as it relates the prophesy of the prophet Daniel, as for example Daniel 9:27, is their deFide teaching that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass would fail, without distinction, in its prophesied time, and that time would BE the time of the reign of the person of Antichrist. Amen. This teaching of the Early Church Fathers is found in the work, “The Present Crisis of The Holy See Tested by Prophesy”, as given by a true Bishop in union with his true Vicar of Christ, Henry Edward Cardinal Manning, circa 1861.
As it relates Order and other Sacraments of the schismatic and heretical Orthodox, it is impossible for them to have sustained the Episcopacy, as a matter deFide per, “Cum Ex…..”, which teaches Authoritatively that whenever a man who is believed to be a Bishop, and without any time limit or regard to whomever or how many have believed him to be Bishop, is witnessed by the laity to have, “deviated from the Faith”, or committed heresy, he in Truth, NEVER WAS A CONSECRATED BISHOP, to begin with. The contrary position is utter heresy, as it is contra, “Cum Ex….”, while it suggests that the Holy Ghost can err in His divine constitution, as with His Consecration, of a man who would later fall into error or heresy. Amen. This man was in truth, “a wolf in sheep’s clothing”, and not a Consecrated Bishop. Amen. I pray this helps you, while in the reception of the grace of the Holy Ghost to receive Truth, on this the Feast of the Nativity of Jesus the Christ. Amen. Alleluia. In caritas.
Joseph a NON-Christian,
Demonstrate ONE Bishop who publically denied the false church as established by the false pope, Angelo Roncalli, you miserable, miscreant fool. In that same understanding you have to demonstrate one Bishop who publically declared Roncalli a false pope, you poor, poor soul. Your focus is on a false council you imbecilic fool. Councils DO NOT BEGET CHURCHES, rather CHURCHES BEGET COUNCILS. It is the FALSE CHURCH which is the subject, not its object, the false council, you foolish man. Every Bishop who assented to the false council had years before assented to the false church of Angelo Roncalli. The proper order of understanding matters, you miscreant. Amen. Apostolic Succession was lost as a matter deFide on October 27, 1958, as per, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”. I pray that you submit to the divine and perpetual Ordinary and Universal Magisterium and save your wretched soul. Amen. In caritas.
Windbag Faux Caritas,
You wrote, “Every Bishop who assented to the false council had years before assented to the false church of Angelo Roncalli.” Prove it. Prove your windbag bellowing, that the thousands of bishops assented to the false church of Angelo Roncalli. Give evidence for each one.
You are an arrogant creature, who barks out your own theory and falsely calls them facts.
Jesus Is Truth. Almighty God humbles the proud, and exalts the humble.
Oops! You were supposed to be In caritas this time.
The Eastern Orthodox rejects the Papacy, and have done so for 1000 years.
Valid, but not legitimate? Heretics and schismatics are “valid”, but not legitimate? What good can their “validity” serve them? Does the “validity” of heretics and schismatics save them? Are they inside the Church?! That’s unjust.
I know firsthand and converted from the Eastern Orthodox, to the Roman Catholic Church, to be in communion with the Pope. Then to my surprise my troubles really began. Yeah, not so easy. So, if the Orthodox have “valid sacraments and priesthood”, then I guess I might just as well go back to them, right? I don’t think so.
What an insult to converts.
Windbag?
You know not what you say, nor do you understand what IC is saying. Remember your own advice, you’ll really going to need it.
Lefebvre would have asked you: “Show me the Catholic Church. Where is it? Who is its pope?”
It makes perfect sense to hold that Bergoglio is not pope. But if you are going to say that the institution of which he pretends to be pope is not the Catholic Church, you have to show where the Catholic Church really is.
The notion that the Holy Spirit “selects the pope” is rank superstition. It has NEVER been taught by the Catholic Church. The pope’s authority has NEVER been attributed to his having been “chosen by the Holy Spirit.”
Dear Joseph,
Your pride is getting the better of you. It’s really quite simple; all bishops who stayed on, in union with Roncalli and the new, false church, showed themselves, as in very publicly (in the external forum), to have assented to the false church and the usurper, Roncalli. Therefore, IC need not give you any proof, for they proved it themselves by their actions.
Your are simply a miscreant fool, Joseph a NON-Christian,
The proof is self evident, you jingoistic imbecile, to anyone receiving the Gift of the divine and Catholic Faith, as from the Holy Ghost. You adhere to the false church of Antichrist and you don’t even know that you do. Apostolic Succession was lost on October 27, 1958, as per the Authoritative Governance of Pope Pius XII, in his Apostolic Constitution, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, 18 days after the death of Pope Pius XII, when an illicit Conclave was held, with the invalid metaphysical matter of the person of Angelo Roncalli, you belligerent miscreant. As you deny this, in your false belief that you can have true Successors of the Apostles as Bishops, without a true Successor of Blessed Peter present on this earth and not in, “interregnum”, but with loss of Apostolic Succession forever as unto the Last Day, deFide, you deny the totality of the Catholic Faith in that singular denial, as infallibly taught in, “Satis Cognitum”. Amen. May Almighty God have mercy on your darkened soul. In caritas.
I have read that there were about 600 bishops who did not sign the Vatican II documents, however I dint know the source. Some tiny number of those must have fled at some point.
Simply a non-Catholic fool, who knows nothing of what you write, in truth. First I was a, “bot”, as a machine, you foolish moron, now the woman, ASB, is also the man, IC. You are simply an idiot, so called, mothermostforgiving. You will utter your cacophony in your own personal Hell for all eternity, should you not divorce yourself of your pseudo-intellectual pride, and submit to the divine Teaching and Governing of Jesus the Christ in His perpetual Magisterium. Amen. Alleluia. In caritas.
God bless you and yours james__o and a Blessed Solemnity of the Nativity of our Blessed Dominus Deus Sabbaoth and Savior, Jesus the Christ. Amen. Alleluia. In caritas.
Witness a woman as ASB, who holds the divine and Catholic Faith writing here, Joseph a non-Christian, as you witness her witness of Truth. Amen. Alleluia. God bless and keep you ASB, on this the most Holy and Blessed Solemnity of the Nativity of our Blessed Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ. Amen. Alleluia. In caritas.
Joseph a Christian,
forgive me short answer. Point I tried to make was little different than seeking explanation of quoted words.
The Church is infallible, knows no error. People in the Church are as people are. If playing in sport team, you make mistake, you wont automatically cease to be player of your team.
Sure there is enemy seeking destruction’s of souls. Not necessary for sake of souls per se but because of God’s Love for those souls. Enemy seeds error inside but this error is not of the Church. Poor souls can fall for error (like sport player can make mistake). Enemy will do everything to present error as Her teaching to reach his goals. If he cant, because for still present knowledge or other reasond, he will try to yank those souls out of the Church under any pretext. Whatever it takes.
The Church is infallible, people are not. Thanks for explanation though.
MMF: LOL, i thought the same. Beggar Caritas or maybe Simple Caritas? (smile)
.
Jesus, Salvation is born, blessed is the city of David.
Are you taking issue, MMF, with the real Douay Rheims? Or are you simply not interested in discovering the truth of these matters?
Many have now allowed themselves to be scandalized by In caritas due to deadly pride, instead of considering the content of the messages. Frightening.
Windbag Faux Caritas, So what day did all of the thousands of bishops become false bishops? The day Roncalli was elected a false pope, the day after, the following year? Did Almighty God, give the bishops who had no idea who Roncalli was some time to read up about him?
What month and year did all the bishops become part of the false church? The same goes for the hundreds of thousands of Catholic priests, what month and year did they all become a part of the Roncalli false church.? You must educate all Catholics precisely, so all can know whether or not their sacraments are valid.
Thanks, In Caritas, for your explanation and the reference to
the Cardinal Manning text. I will read it with interest.
So much for Pentecost.
And you, and yours as well IC.
I seem to remember one Apostle being picked by lots.
And from Divinum Illud Munus, “And since the welfareof the peoples, for which the Church was established, absolutely requires thatthis office should be continued for all time, the Holy Ghost perpetuallysupplies life and strength to preserve and increase the Church.” Hmmmm? You see, its easy to grab a sentence here and there and make up your own dogmas. Its exactly what the R&Rers do and the dogmatic stay at homers do. Is ASB and IC calling the Pope Leo XIII a liar? What part of PERPETUALLY don’t you understand you “miscreant fools?” This is why you cannot just cherry pick a quote here and there and make up your own dogmas. I hope the smart readers on this blog are not fooled by those who think they have figured out the Great Apostasy. Stop thinking that somehow you are immune to the deception that we all face.
Tom A.– I’m confused about the term “Bride of Christ”. Can the Catholic Church (or what the world perceives to be the Catholic Church) be “the Bride of Christ” and also be corrupt, perverted and anti-Catholic at the same time? Can the face of the Bride of Christ be disfigured by an imposter “pope”? I’m asking you, Tom A., because your responses are brief, to the point, and logical. Thank you.
Tom:
Could you please explain clearly what that quote means, and what you are trying to say, because I don’t understand when I read your comment (and maybe others) what you mean.
Short answer: No. It would be a blasphemy to call Christ’s Bride a whore. The mystical body of the Church Militant is made up of those who hold the Catholic Faith. That Faith is pure and perfect. So while the Church Militant is full of sinners, it is full of sinners who hold the Faith. Therefore no corruption of the Faith is possible since if there is a defection, that person no longer belongs to the Church.
James, some people like to grab one or two lines out of documents and make up their own dogmas. That quote is from a document IC used to claim the Holy Ghost picks bishops and Popes. I can just as well take the same document he used and come to the conclusion that Bergoglio has to be Pope based that quote. IC likes to sound authoritative, but he doesn’t know what he is talking about. Be careful, just because you seem to sympathize with his conclusions, you need to be leary of his reasoning. He has no sense of context or what is magisterial and what is canonical. I have said before, I cannot fault anyone who comes to the home alone position, but don’t butcher Church teaching to get there.
Thank, Tom A. A corrupt anti-Catholic “church” cannot possibly be the Bride of Christ. Yet, there are those in the N.O. “church” who say they adhere to this church because they cannot abandon The Bride of Christ. Makes no sense to me.
The are institutional identity “catholics.” They are wedded (no pun intended) to the institution and not the Faith. The Church to the Michael Matt and Steve Skojec types is buildings and real estate. They will bend whatever theology and ecclesiology necessary to maintain their “anything but sedevacantism” position.
Dearest james_o,
If I may. Tom A, as an objectively understood, non-Catholic, while posing as though he is Catholic, makes it known from time to time and clearly, that he is in doubt, about just what, “faith”, he holds freely, as within the operation of his will. Amen. He speaks of the, “Great Apostasy”, as, “affecting all”. He then projects his doubt upon those of us who have never claimed to hold any doubt, about that which we freely assent to in the operation of our wills, as the perpetual, divine, Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. Amen. It has been pointed out to him innumerable times that he is in error and with the proof positive of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Itself, as here from, “Satis Cognitum”:
“”And so Hilary: “Christ teaching from the ship signifies that those who are outside the Church can never grasp the divine teaching; for the ship typifies the Church where the word of life is deposited and preached. Those who are outside are like sterile and worthless sand: they cannot comprehend” (Comment. in Matt. xiii., n. I).”
Tom A acknowledges freely as objectively, that he is outside the Catholic Church as he holds doubt. To hold doubt about the divine and Catholic Faith is demonstrative as perfectly, of one who simply cannot hold the divine and Catholic Faith, which is Truth, as The Reality as It Is”, apart then from ANY AND ALL DOUBT, and this, a pious 12 year old would know, at the pain of Hell, to save his miserable soul. Amen. Alleluia. The Christ commanded that He would send His Church, “The Spirit of Truth”, Who would remain with the Mystical Body of Christ, His Church, unto the Last Day, as perpetually, unending and unchanging thus. Amen. Alleluia.
He is utterly blind to the Reality as it is, that what Jesus the Christ promised as He commanded, was that indeed, “the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.”, while, “it”, is the totality of the Holy Church as Church. Pope Leo XIII Authoritatively taught in, “Satis Cognitum”, that indeed Satan had and would overcome aspects of the Church, while he could never overcome the Church in Her immutable and inviolable glory. Amen. Alleluia. As infallibly taught in, “Satis Cognitum”, the, “Church”, is the Rock of Salvation, as the Rock also is Blessed Peter in his Successors. Amen. The true, beautiful, and good demonstration of the Catholic, “both/and”, understanding. Amen. Now and again from, “Satis Cognitum”:
” For it is the nature and object of a foundation to support the unity of the whole edifice and to give stability to it, rather than to each component part; and in the present case this is much more applicable, since Christ the Lord wished that by the strength and solidity of the foundation the gates of hell should be prevented from prevailing against the Church. All are agreed that the divine promise must be understood of the Church as a whole, and not of any certain portions of it. These can indeed be overcome by the assaults of the powers of hell, as in point of fact has befallen some of them.”
And for deeper understanding of the, “Rock”, upon which Jesus the Christ commanded His Church into being from, “Satis Cognitum”:
“The Universal Jurisdiction of St. Peter
12. From this text it is clear that by the will and command of God the Church rests upon St. Peter, just as a building rests on its foundation. Now the proper nature of a foundation is to be a principle of cohesion for the various parts of the building. It must be the necessary condition of stability and strength. Remove it and the whole building falls. It is consequently the office of St. Peter to support the Church, and to guard it in all its strength and indestructible unity. How could he fulfill this office without the power of commanding, forbidding, and judging, which is properly called jurisdiction? It is only by this power of jurisdiction that nations and commonwealths are held together. A primacy of honour and the shadowy right of giving advice and admonition, which is called direction, could never secure to any society of men unity or strength. The words – and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it – proclaim and establish the authority of which we speak. “What is the it?” (writes Origen). “Is it the rock upon which Christ builds the Church or the Church? The expression indeed is ambiguous, as if the rock and the Church were one and the same. I indeed think that this is so, and that neither against the rock upon which Christ builds His Church nor against the Church shall the gates of Hell prevail” (Origenes, Comment. in Matt., tom. xii., n. ii). The meaning of this divine utterance is, that, notwithstanding the wiles and intrigues which they bring to bear against the Church, it can never be that the church committed to the care of Peter shall succumb or in any wise fail.”
Here james__o, Pope Leo XIII incorporates a quote from Origen, then and of course rendering this quote infallible, as it is then incorporated into the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. Amen. In his segway into the quote of Origen, the Holy Pontiff declares this:
“It is consequently the office of St. Peter to support the Church, and to guard it in all its strength and indestructible unity.”
We know then that it is the, “office of St. Peter”, which gives support and stability to Holy Church by, “guarding”, the Church in all its strength and, “indestructible unity.”. Amen. Alleluia. It is not Blessed Peter apart from the divine Office, and of course. The Office holds the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, as it once held Blessed Peter in his Successors. As we know that the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium is, “perpetual”, deFide, as taught in, “Satis Cognitum”, we know that the, “office of Saint Peter”, also is perpetual, as the Church is inviolable and immutable, deFide. We know as a matter deFide that the Church in Her inviolable and immutable totality remains unto the Last Day. We also know deFide, that while aspects of the Holy Church had fallen and would continue to do so, as to succumb to the wiles of Satan, and as per, “Satis Cognitum”, quoted above, the Church remains unchanged and untouched in Her totality. Amen.
No where is it commanded that Blessed Peter in his Successors remain unto the Last Day, as that would put contradiction in the Holy Church which is not possible, as it is Truth. The Early Church Fathers clearly warn the Universal Church of this, with their inerrant interpretation that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, without distinction, would fail in the prophesied time, and that this would definitively be the time of the reign of the false king, as Antichrist. Amen. 2 Thess 2, at the same time, gives us the warning of the Apostle that, “…he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way…”, and then the next proclamation of Saint Paul is that Satan brings forth the person of Antichrist, as the, “son of perdition”, and the, “man of sin”, in that same time and by virtue of his, “lying wonders”, and “power”. Amen. Alleluia. Satan’s all but perfect deception of his church as the, “abomination of desolation”, while at once being the Catholic Church. The, “abomination of desolation”, as again in the proper as true Catholic, “both/and”, understanding, as both the church of Antichrist, and the person of Antichrist. Amen. Right reason simply commands this understanding of St. Paul in 2 Thess 2, as in accord with the inerrant interpretation of the prophet Daniel by the Early Church Fathers. Amen. Alleluia. Salvation through the reception of the divine and Catholic Faith and coupled with, “right reason”, deFide. Amen. Alleluia. Faith and right reason can NEVER BE IN CONTRADICTION, deFide.
Now and again from, “Satis Cognitum”, we have the Holy Father Leo XIII Authoritatively teaching as infallibly, that the, “Magisterium”, IS BOTH THE, “TEACHING AUTHORITY”, of the Catholic Church, while it is also (as both/and), “TO BE PERPETUAL”. We know as a matter deFide, that Blessed Peter in his Successors, has not been in the world since the death of Pope Pius XII, Oct. 9, 1958. We also know as a matter deFide, as per, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, that Apostolic Succession was forever lost 18 days after his death on Oct. 27, 1958, when a non-Canonical as false Conclave was held. We know this because Angelo Roncalli had been known as having had deviated from the Catholic Faith years before his faux election to the See of Peter. Amen. He was sanctioned for this by the true Church. We also know this because he ordered the false council of the false church, which he created by his false election. Amen. And we could go on…….”VAS”, gave no distinction for any exception in its definitive ruling on how, and precisely when, the business of the election of the next Roman Pontiff had to be begun. In fact not only was no distinction offered to allow for ANY EXCEPTION, Pope Pius XII clearly ordered that any additions, deletions, or changes to his Authoritative governance, would render the, “election”, as, “null and void”. Amen. Alleluia. Almighty God in His divine Providence preparing His Church for His elect. Amen. Alleluia. We must know the, “wolves in sheep’s clothing”, and the, “false prophets”, thus. Amen.
“The Magisterium (or Teaching Authority) of the Church to be Perpetual
…But since it is obviously most in harmony with God’s providence that no one should have confided to him a great and important mission unless he were furnished with the means of properly carrying it out, for this reason Christ promised that He would send the Spirit of Truth to His Disciples to remain with them for ever. “But if I go I will send Him (the Paraclete) to you….But when He, the Spirit of Truth is come, He will teach you all truth” (John xvi., 7-13). “And I will ask the Father, and He shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever, the Spirit of ‘Truth” (Ibid. xiv., 16-17). “He shall give testimony of Me, and you shall give testimony” (Ibid. xv., 26-27). Hence He commands that the teaching of the Apostles should be religiously accepted and piously kept as if it were His own – “He who hears you hears Me, he who despises you despises Me” (Luke x., 16). Wherefore the Apostles are ambassadors of Christ as He is the ambassador of the Father. “As the Father sent Me so also I send you” (John xx., 21). Hence as the Apostles and Disciples were bound to obey Christ, so also those whom the Apostles taught were, by God’s command, bound to obey them. And, therefore, it was no more allowable to repudiate one iota of the Apostles’ teaching than it was to reject any point of the doctrine of Christ Himself.”
It is of utter import that we receive the Magisterial Truth as the, Reality as it is. “Satis Cognitum”, here makes the distinction between the, “Apostles”, of The Christ and His, “Disciples”. He clearly teaches the following and in his own words:
“Christ promised that He would send the Spirit of Truth to His Disciples to remain with them for ever.”
The, “Spirit of Truth”, as the Holy Ghost, would thus remain in His Church unto the Last Day, Guiding, Teaching, and Governing, not His, “Apostles”, who had long since died, rather His, “Disciples”, who would remain, as but a few, unto the Last Day. Amen. Alleluia. And here, Pope Leo XIII Authoritatively teaches of both the, “Apostles and Disciples”, together:
“Hence as the Apostles and Disciples were bound to obey Christ, so also those whom the Apostles taught were, by God’s command, bound to obey them. And, therefore, it was no more allowable to repudiate one iota of the Apostles’ teaching than it was to reject any point of the doctrine of Christ Himself.”
And so where is the Authoritative Teaching of the Apostles to be found today, during this as our time of the desolation of Antichrist, with the Vicar of Christ now forever gone from the face of this wretched and scorched earth with the loss of Apostolic Succession? The same place it has always been found, in the, “Ordinary and Universal Magisterium”, which is Pope Leo XIII taught in, “Satis Cognitum”, as to be:
“Wherefore, as appears from what has been said, Christ instituted in the Church a living, authoritative and permanent Magisterium, which by His own power He strengthened, by the Spirit of truth He taught, and by miracles confirmed. He willed and ordered, under the gravest penalties, that its teachings should be received as if they were His own.”
Pope Leo XIII, with his full Authoritative as Apostolic Power, declares the divine Magisterium to be, “…LIVING, AUTHORITATIVE, AND PERMAMENT.” While Tom A declares it to be as a, “dead letter”, with no power of teaching, governance, judging, nor divine Authority, as if the Magisterium died with the final, holy Pope, Pius XII. May Almighty God have mercy on the soul of Tom A. Amen.
Lastly for now then and from, “Divinum Illud Munus”, as from the part which Tom A parsed from above:
“This truth He communicates to His Church, guarding her by His all powerful help from ever falling into error, and aiding her to foster daily more and more the germs of divine doctrineand to make them fruitful for the welfare of the peoples. And since the welfareof the peoples, for which the Church was established, absolutely requires that this office should be continued for all time, the Holy Ghost perpetually supplies life and strength to preserve and increase the Church. “I will askthe Father, and He will give you another Paraclete, that He may abide with youfor ever, the Spirit of Truth” (john xiv., 16, 17).”
I trust, as I hope and pray, that enough has been written in this commentary, leading up to yet another profound error in Magisterial understanding, as from the non-Catholic, Tom A, to clarify how wrong he is when he writes as he does. Amen. Alleluia. God bless and keep you and yours’, james__o. In caritas.
The miserable miscreant fool Tom A, objectively remains on his sure as certain path to Hell, deFide, as he continues to rest outside the Church, as objectively, where no salvation can be had, deFide. Amen.
Nowhere have I written that the, “Holy Ghost picks…Popes”. Period and end. Pascendi misinterpreted what was written and that was clarified for him, you neo-pagan, religion of man adherent, on your sure path to Hell, Tom A. You are such a jingoistic fool that you have no true understanding of the near perfect error that you spew as time and time and time again. You now parse a line from an encyclical and you claim that proves some miscreant as heretical point of yours and of course, james__o, who is receptive to Truth, simply does not understanding your errant screed. What could possibly be surprising about that, you miserable, imbecilic, non-Catholic, heretical fool? You affront the perpetual as divine, living and Authoritative Ordinary and Universal Magisterium and you obviously don’t care that you do, as you continue your heretical rhetoric in spite of continued correction. You will certainly know the utter cacophony of Hell should you continue this obstinate as UTTERLY PRIDE ridden error. Amen. Alleluia. In caritas.
Tom A: “I seem to remember one Apostle being picked by lots.”
Pope Leo XIII, “Satis Cognitum”:
“Jesus Christ, therefore, appointed Peter to be that head of the Church; and He also determined that the authority instituted in perpetuity for the salvation of all should be inherited by His successors, in whom the same permanent authority of Peter himself should continue. And so He made that remarkable promise to Peter and to no one else: “Thou are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church” (Matt. xvi., 18). “To Peter the Lord spoke: to one, therefore, that He might establish unity upon one” (S. Pacianus ad Sempronium, Ep. iii., n. 11). “Without any prelude He mentions St. Peter’s name and that of his father (Blessed art thou Simon, son of John) and He does not wish Him to be called any more Simon; claiming him for Himself according to His divine authority He aptly names him Peter, from petra the rock, since upon him He was about to found His Church” (S. Cyrillus Alexandrinus, In Evang. Joan., lib. ii., in cap. i., v. 42).”
Enough, “said”. Amen. Alleluia. In caritas.
May Almighty God, in the Divine Person of the Holy Ghost, shine His intellective Light of grace upon you, as you seek His Truth, as found in the divine, living, perpetual, Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, as taught in, “Satis Cognitum”. Amen. Alleluia. In caritas.
IC,
Thanks for taking the time to explain. Persecution is upon us, reality is what it is, but the Holy Spirit of Truth always has been, and always will be, with His Church.
And also, if we could not understand and know the teachings of Christ, the Apostles, and the Holy Magisterium, there would be nothing left for man. No rock to stand on.
This age, or any other.
Amen Thomas, well stated.
This is true, and a good point IC.
Bergoglio and his predecessors are not Catholic. Duh. Non-Catholics aren’t in the Church. Anti-pope, is way too high of a term, there is no historical precedent for the type of monsters that exist today, of recent memory who claim to be “pope”, and all the monsters who follow them and claim to be “Catholic”. A freak-show. Yes, that better describes it.
The honor and dignity of God, of Christ, is more important than us, and we must defend it first and foremost before ourselves. That would be the short of it.
They however, have unleashed total hell on earth.
Ouch.
I tried to respond to your Dec 24th comment IC, and ended up way down here.
Indeed james__o,
All one has to do is to look around. The principle of disorder, as the desolation after Antichrist, is to be found everywhere, without exception. It is known publically as it is known privately, in the workplace and in the home, without exception, without escape, with nowhere to hide. Amen. The world has been stripped of the Vicar of Christ and with him gone, so is the Supernatural Order also gone in the temporal sphere; with him as the sole Representative of Jesus the Christ and with his full Apostolic Power and Authority, as the pinnacle of Order. Amen. Only a non-Catholic fool is blind to this, yet all but all who live and breathe fit this description, as evidenced before our eyes, here and everywhere we look. Amen. Time is compressing as motus infine’ velocior, while the cosmos awaits the final Prophesy, that of the Second Coming of the Christ, to be fulfilled. Amen. Alleluia. The Peace of Christ to you and yours’ james__o, not as the world can give. Amen. Alleluia. In caritas.
Actually, inasmuch as the Church of Rome did deviate from Apostolic Tradition it all DID from from her.
I mean, where else did it come from? We can theologize about indefectability and infallibility until kingdom come to no avail, but the fact is that men within institutional church DID bring all this evil about.
The job of the institutional, visible church is to preserve and pass on Apostolic Tradition. That is why it exists. It CAN fail to do that…because it’s made up of human beings who are imperfect and have free will. The Holy Ghost doesn’t override anyone’s free will or turn anyone into some sort of medium or oracle. Certainly not some man given the designation of Pope. We’re free to accept or reject truth…otherwise we wouldn’t be human.
Tom A,
interesting thought process although I don’t fully follow. Let me break it up:
That Faith is pure and perfect.
…as the Church is. No problem here.
So while the Church Militant is full of sinners,
Yes.
it is full of sinners who hold the Faith
Yes, “in general” but not necessary “in details”.
I guess by ‘sinners’ you mean faithfuls who hold ‘pure Faith’ but act contrary to that. What about those who try to adhere to Faith as close as they can but are unable to, due to lack of resources or mistakes make by them or their teachers.
What about those, for example, who do made some slight mistake in some obscure matter where true answer can be found only through intensive study of many documents. Does this minuscule mistake regarding the pure Faith excludes them from the Church? If no, can you point the exact border where person finds himself outside for mistakenly deviate from the Faith? Of course, on the other hand, those who know Faith and deliberately act against it, especially when corrupting others, are, or should be excluded – but can you point out exactly every mistake that, without any doubt, renders person out of the Church?
Therefore no corruption of the Faith is possible
Corruption of the Faith is not possible, but corruption of faith of single person is absolutely possible. Can you tell about yourself that your faith is exactly the same the Church’s Faith is? Up to the slightest? Did you study Cannon Law for example? Card Burke knew what he was saying when he stated that Cannon Law is not for fainted hearts. What about whole knowledge of doctors of the Church, what about… (etc). Can you say you have it all, as it should be, in context that you are absolutely sure you are not that person[who] no longer belongs to the Church.. Can you say that your faith = the Faith, in knowledge and understanding?
No, Tom A, Church is full of sinners who asp to improve every day and who try to adhere to the Faith as much as they can. If they are mistaken, they are mistaken and are not excluded from the Church. The Faith is pure and can not be changed but people can be mistaken. A mistake does not automatically excommunicate. There are special procedures for this to happen, you can find some in the Bible.
What do yo say? Please correct me if I’m wrong.
james_o:
Remember what Jesus told His Apostles about the Holy Ghost: He would send Him to remind them of all which He (Jesus) had taught and commanded them.
That did not then nor does it now include giving some sort of supernatural locution or theophany about designating this man or that man to be Bishop of the diocese of Rome (or any other position for that matter).
If I may make a remark upon your comment, Tom A.
You state in your comment that “Corruption of the Faith is not possible, but corruption of faith of single person is absolutely possible”
While I agree with you that individual people such as you and I are capable of being faithful or unfaithful to Jesus, I have to quibble with your notion of some abstract “Faith” which exists…somewhere?
I think it would be better to say that truth of God’s self-revelation in the Person of Jesus is contained within and passed down through Apostolic Tradition. It is through Tradition that we are able to BE faithful to Jesus.
Positing that there is some “Faith” which exists…somewhere…independent of a person who is actually faithful doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Actually, it rather reeks of some dim Platonic Ideal.
I don’t know about you, but I’ve never met one of those Ideals.
Correction- should read “ …make a remark upon your comment TO Tom A, M.C.”.
I’m sorry if there was any confusion.
M.C. It sounds to me that you are describing the difference between venial sin (which does not separate us from the Faith) and mortal sin, which does separate us from the Faith until absolution in the Sacrament of Penance.
NobisQuoquePeccatoribus,
you are right. What I said may sound like Platonic Idea, but underlying is substantially different. The Faith do exist, this is the same as the Truth. This is not some philosophers’ idea they can build their thinking upon. This is the Person. To be more precise (we don’t want to decide theological questions) the Faith is the revealed Truth.
If you think the Faith is person (recipient) dependent you may easily end up in relativism. It is truth that ability to absorb the Faith depends on each individual but the Faith itself does not.
The main point in my response to Tom A was questioning his statement: Therefore no corruption of the Faith is possible since if there is a defection, that person no longer belongs to the Church.
Not everybody absorbs the Faith the same way, to the same degree, yet no-one will be tempted beyond one’s capabilities. It is harmful to say to another person he is outside the Church only because he has a different point of view to yours. It is right to correct, and duty, other person if other person is mistaken. Usually it goes dow the command chain.
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my2cants,
M.C. It sounds to me that you are describing the difference between venial sin (which does not separate us from the Faith) and mortal sin, which does separate us from the Faith until absolution in the Sacrament of Penance.
Not quite, but not dissimilar. To make this more alike would be if Tom A stated that any sin is against God and whoever commits any sin is automatically outside the Church because the Church can not be against God. We know that this statement is not true although it may be propagated via some groups.
Well, actually (probably) you can think about Tom’s A ‘defection from the Faith” as equivalent to ‘any sin’.
Worthwhile point about “identity” Catholics. They’re certainly leaving the door wide open to being absorbed back into the Vatican II sect and its Novus Ordo.
To illustrate what I mean, “having the Faith” (which is not the same as BEING faithful to Jesus) in many of the more well-informed “identity” cases often boils down to some high Counter-Reformation Baroque Roman Rite amusement park, complete with a regal Pope leading it all by bull, decree and the very infrequent ” infallible ex cathedra” dogmatic declaration, mountains of muddled scholastic and neo-scholastic theologization and speculation mangling and burying Aquinas’ truly Christian metaphysic grounded firmly in Esse/Being/”I AM”, and last but not least some ahistorical notion of an “unalterable” “Mass of the Ages” (burdened with not a little very alterable rubrical accretion) contained within the Roman Missales and Pontificales published between 1570 and 1962.
If someone were to try to convince me that that is all there is to being faithful to Jesus, I’m not buying it.
Furthermore, the Novus Ordo elites will be more than happy to allow that sort of “Catholicism” within in their big tent “ecumenical” sect as long as the denizens don’t get too unruly and rock the boat.
In effect, they pretty much do all ready with the existence of the Ecclesia Dei institutes and given the current status of the FSSPX. Shouldn’t be news to too many people here……though I can say from first hand experience not all the clergy and laity within those folds are buying the ruse.
M.C.
I have to utterly disagree with you about your notion called “Faith”.
There is no such thing as “Faith”. It’s a pure abstraction. There are only people who are faithful to Jesus. There is, however, Tradition.
Based on your posts here I believe you’re an honest person and therefore want to know and love Jesus, but nonetheless a little confused. I can understand that.
Therefore, I suspect that when you say “Faith”, you actually mean “Tradition”…because that is the means to being faithful to Jesus: by knowing and actually living the Tradition which we’ve received from the Apostles about Jesus and what He did and said.
As far as “Faith” being Truth is concerned, Jesus Christ is Truth because He is, in the most actual sense, the Truth of the One God Who IS. Put another way, He is God’s Knowledge, or rather Word, about Himself. That is why He told His Apostles that He IS The Truth (as well as the Way and the Life). He wasn’t merely saying “I speak truth to you, Peter, James, John, etc”…..He was (and IS as I write this and you read it) quite literally BE-ing (Living) The Very Truth (Word) about God. Both to them, and now through Tradition to you and me.
I’m sorry if that was a bit of a clumsy rant. If it all seems too “theological” to you, please know that that’s precisely what I attempted to avoid it being.
Hope it helps in any case.
Peter did not become pope on Pentecost! He was appointed pope by Jesus Christ, in person.
Mortal sin does not “separate us from the Faith.” People in the state of mortal sin lose Sanctifying Grace, but they do not entirely lose the theological virtues and actual grace. Otherwise, they would never desire to receive Communion, or approach the Sacrament of Penance. And not every mortal sin breaks our communion with the Church–only those sins that are specifically contrary to communion with the Church–i.e., heresy, schism, and apostasy.
Clearly, you are fuzzy on the meaning of “Apostolic Succession.”
“Apostolic Succession” has nothing to do with the pope, except in reference to the pope’s OWN episcopal ordination, and those whom HE ORDAINS to the episcopacy. The Orders of all the other bishops in the world, those not ordained by the pope, do not flow through the pope in any way. The occupant of the papacy must be Bishop of Rome, but the office of the papacy is not a Holy Order. The pope is not “ordained pope.” When there is an anti-pope, not a single bishop or priest in the world “loses” his Orders.
I’m afraid you’re not following, Arthur. You are very late to the discussion.
If in fact we have an anti-Pope then who pray tell is the true Pope? And it cannot be Benedict XVI as he is also an heretic and an apostate.
Oh’ Arthur McGowan, you poor, poor fool,
You actually as literally wrote this:
“Clearly, you are fuzzy on the meaning of “Apostolic Succession.”
“Apostolic Succession” has nothing to do with the pope,…”
A 10 year old who actually held the divine and Catholic Faith would laugh you into Hell, so to speak, for such an imbecilic as utterly foolish statement, with the pain of damning you to Hell as an heretic. “You will KNOW THEM by their fruits”, as our Blessed Jesus the Christ, whose glorious Circumcision is celebrated today, by those few left breathing in this most wretched and scorched world, who actually hold the divine and Catholic Faith. Your fruit is poison Arthur. You are NOT CATHOLIC, in spite of your miserable fiat as opinion that you do. The Christ commanded us to know the other by what he says/writes. You have no concept of what you write, as you touch on truth and immerse yourself in a see of lies from the Father of Lies, whom you assent to in his false church of Antichrist, you miserable, miscreant fool. You deny the Authoritative teaching of the Singular Vatican Council of 1869-70, in your little screed, as you deny the Apostolic Constitution, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, as you deny, “Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio”. You are simply another pseudo-intellectual, miscreant, neo-pagan heathen, dressed as a pig in lipstick, you imbecile. You proclaim blasphemy as though it is Catholic. You are not humble. You do not ask questions of that which you simply have no true foundation in understanding of, rather you stand on your soap box, as the house built on sand that our Blessed Dominus Deus warned would occur. Your pathetic pseudo-intellectualism collapses under its own utter WEIGHT OF ERROR, and of course you remain blind to that, reality as it simply is. Amen. Deny yourself, take up your cross then, and actually follow Jesus the Christ, you neo-pagan fool. God have mercy on your soul. In caritas.
Happy New Year!
For catholics, after St Francis, let’s start again and do God’s will, as for we did nothing yet.
For non-catholichs, join The Church, not in new year but in new week.
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NobisQuoquePeccatoribus,
I have to utterly disagree with you about your notion called “Faith”.
There is no such thing as “Faith”. It’s a pure abstraction. There are only people who are faithful to Jesus. There is, however, Tradition.
Indeed, we are in deep disagreement.
If you say that faith is the same as Tradition, I must say you are wrong. Or to say it in politically correct way, you are partially right.
First let me put down a premise for our discussion. WHen I’m talking about the Faith, I’m talking about faith Catholic Church. I am not talking about what Lutherans think about faith, or Evangelicals, or Sedevacantists, or Orthodox, or what any individual think about faith. I’m talking only Catholic, and am not interested at the moment in any of above. Well, maybe with exception of the last one, but only if given individual is interested in
Catholicism with potential he may join.
Not sure if this was necessary, but, for some reason, I wanted it out.
Now, what is the Faith? Two meanings. One – it is a virtue that enables men to believe in revealed Truth, supernatural virtue. Two – revealed truth itself, sometimes called Deposit of Faith (pope’s role is to make sure that DepofFaith is passed unchanged to next generations. Pope, being sovereign ruler over all nations is not the owner of the Faith. He can not change it or ass anything new, but he can clarify some issues.)
The Faith is the truth revealed by God (Who can not deceive or be deceived.) How we are getting to know the Faith? Three ways: Tradition, Scripture, Church’s Teachings. All three elements cooperate with each other. If you narrow the Faith to Tradition only – you are wrong. Tradition of course gives us part of the Faith but not all. What’s more, we can not be sure that every catholic tradition is infallible by itself. Usually, the longer the tradition lasts, the more certitude we can apply to it, but we do need Teaching and Bible.
When you say There is no such thing as “Faith”. It’s a pure abstraction. There are only people who are faithful to Jesus. you call what God revealed to us “pure abstraction” and make god of “the people. Not good.
If you are catholic, please correct yourself immediately. Of course I don’t demand you do this on my word. This is not any ego-game. I didn’t present my opinion but repeated only what the Church teaches. Go and check for yourself, maybe talk to somebody you trust. Simple catechism should be sufficient.
Dear M.C.,
Are you of the opinion that Francis is Pope of the Holy Catholic Church?
No, I’m not. This is not matter of opinion though.
Thank you. Then you are of the opinion that Benedict is Pope – now I remember, and this IS a matter of your opinion, for if Francis is not a true Pope, then neither is Benedict, and for the very same reasons.
Very well put.
The Deposit of Faith is very real. Sacred Tradition. Sacred Scripture, Doctrine of the Church. The substance of Revelation. It is what we can learn and assent to.
It is the logic of sedevacantism. First you reject the pope, then you reject the Church. Louie Verrechio is now a public heretic, or as Bellarmine would say, a manifest heretic.
Louie Verrechio is now a public heretic
FormerSede, can you please explain what do you mean by that. Did I miss something?
Dear Lynda,
Many thanks for your kind wishes. A blessed New Year to you and your loved ones. It must have been God’s will that we saw your above comment, since we still read this blog periodically, but rarely look at the comments – too much infighting and lack of charity under Louie’s policy of non-moderation. We’re spending most of our time these days praying and offering sacrifices for Holy Mother Church and for the many souls in need of Her graces, unity and sound teachings in these times of great distress. Keep the Faith and your beautiful pro-life spirit always. Sincerely, indignus famulus.
A person who recognizes and rejects the apostate church of the Antichrist and its leader (“pope”), as well as all of its heretical tentacles (sects) is simply and truly…Catholic.
Dear Lynda,
If Jorge Bergoglio is an, “anti-Pope”, of the Church established by the Son of God made true Man, you must then be able to assent to the true Pope, who must be among us, as publically understood, not hidden, as he is the eminently visible mark of Apostolic Succession, and the Unity of Communion of the divine and Catholic Faith. Amen. Alleluia. The true Pope cannot be guilty of, “deviating from the Faith”, nor can he be guilty of frank heresy, as per, “Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio”, the Apostolic Constitution, and as thus Authoritative and infallible Magisterial teaching and governance, of Pope Paul IV, Feb, 1559. Amen. To deny this, is to deny the divine and Catholic Faith as an heretic, with no standing thus in the holy Church, as to then make any legitimate claims about Her. Amen. Josef Ratzinger assents to Lumen Gentium, as he does the rest of the false council of the church of Antichrist. So called, “Lumen Gentium”, section 16, denies the divinity of Jesus the Christ. This is Antichrist, as inerrantly taught by Blessed John the Apostle and Evangelist, as in his First Epistle to the Universal Church. Amen. Alleluia. You simply MUST know this to save your miserable soul, to be truly Catholic thus. Amen. In caritas.
Louie and company. Vigano is only partly right because he is blinded by the fact that that he would have to indict himself as he was a part of this false church for most of his adult life so he claims here :”Now the Church is lifeless… With unprecedented acceleration, thanks to the subversive drive of this pontificate, supported by the powerful Jesuit apparatus, a deadly coup de grace [death blow] is being delivered to the Church…” But why wasn’t Vigano blowing the whistle on the other false Vatican II anti-popes? In reality they were all cut from the same modernist cloth- just read Fr. Lugi Villa and you’ll see the real truth of the matter.
I guess this is Vigano’s coded words for the death blow to the false church covering up his “active participation in as a “nuncio” for the Bride of FrankieStein church not the Catholic Church and he calls it lifeless because the mad scientists , doctors and ” fractured fairy-tale saints” of the Man Centered Vatican II church concocted their climate change mother earth cult Pachamama, Sustainable Development Cult from the criminal elements of Freemasonry, Marxism and the schismatic errors of Russian Madam Blavatsky infiltrators that Bella Dodd warned in 1959 “you won’t recognize the Catholic Church in 10 years .” The only thing is Vigano is over 50 years too late in his whistle blowing. He blames the Jesuits and they should be blamed including the current Black Pope Bergoglio but Vigano ought to have a few Mea Culpa ‘s for himself as he has been a co-worker with this hireling hit-men crowd of Vatican II pretender hierarchy who eat their own fellow revolutionaries. These are the fraudulent hirelings who a true Pope Leo XIII warned us were those ” impious hands who have raised on the throne of Peter their abominable impiety so that when the pastor is struck the sheep may be scattered” by the Pseudo popes, cardinals, Bishops and duped presbyters over the Novus Ordo Neo Catholics assembly of victims of FrankiStein drunk with the blood of white martyrs. Those millions of poor Catholics caught in the dark like children run over by a “red” Mac truck. Vigano sitting on the passenger side nervous at the reckless driving blames it on the man in the driver seat Frankie even though he came along as a second rider on the passenger side. Vigano witnessing the hit skip in real time as an accessory to the crime and finally recollects he saw it happen even though it was 50 years too late but better late than never. No Vigano the Church only appears to be lifeless because what you have been participating in is the eclipsing false ape of the Church that is the FrankenStein church trying to resurrect a lifeless Golem as their god because they do not believe in the resurrected Jesus Christ who will come to judge the living and the dead at His second coming. He will separate the sheep from the goats after He slays the false prophet and the anti-Christ with His breath. This false church does not want to convert or proselytize anyone because it is dead and that Vigano is the real truth. It is time for you to come out of this counterfeit mystery Babylon Vatican II church – the one that the apostate excommunicated Canon Roca prophesied in the late 1800’s. “An immolation is in the offing which will be a solemn expiation. The Papacy will succumb; it will fall beneath the sacred knife forged by the Fathers of a last Council. The papal Caesar is a Victim crowned for sacrifice.” .” (Roca: Glorieux Centenaire, p. 455) https://books.google.com/books?id=VQMhnUr_zJsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Roca:+Glorieux+Centenaire&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUgIjX86bOAhVKOMAKHVeUDKEQuwUIKjAB#v=onepage&q=immolation&f=false Frankie might as well make Roca a Saint too because he pointed the finger at the Vatican II hierarchy as a “revelation of the method” from John XXIII on down to the current fraud as sacrificing the papacy at a Church Council which accomplished the goal of the Alta Vendita crowd. Friends that is what the true Third Secret of Fatima is really about the apostasy of a false church council ratified by false popes and an apostate clergy who gave you a false Mass and doctrine- the Luciferian ie. “suicide of altering the faith in her liturgy and doctrine” as Pius XII warned. Only when Vatican II is shelved and the election of a true pope with valid apostolic succession is elected will there be a restoration. This can only happen by an act of almighty God when He sees His people on their knees, saying many rosary prayers from penitent Catholics who have recognized this apostasy is OUT of the Church and can NOT come from the Catholic Church as our eyes look to Heaven and our lives reflect Christ.
NobisQuoquePeccatoribus I agree with many of your astute statements which are well thought out. But “the Church of Rome” DID NOT deviate from Apostolic tradition it was THE HERETICAL CHURCHMAN who went out of her as our Lady of La Salette said, that ROME WILL LOSE THE FAITH AND BECOME THE SEAT OF THE ANTI-CHRIST. She did not say the Roman Church will lose the faith. It is faithless modernist baptized Catholics who defect from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. You are right when you say here” but the fact is that men within institutional church DID bring all this evil about.” But when you say we can theologize about “indefectibility and infallibility until kingdom come to no avail” I would say that it is the infallibility and indefectibility of the Catholic Church that prevails in the unchanging rock of Jesus Christ and His Vicar and that it is found in the unchanging Catholic doctrines and in her faithful apostles (ie. legitimate Bishops, Popes and priests -as we recall what happened in the Arian Heresy when 95 percent of the Churchmen went out of the Catholic Church and true Catholics ignored them) and her faithful laity that you can find the reflection of Christ on earth in this Church Militant but greatly reduced. I agree that it is hard to find this indefectible Church Militant on earth as it appears to have died but this can not be true for Christ said he would be with us till the end of time. But this indefectible Catholic Church is NOT found in the false church with their impious hands that set up this abominable Vatican II throne of impiety with a phony NO Mass on the see of Peter and scattered the flock. I do agree that the ” visible Church with a capital C for Catholic passes down the apostolic succession but I do NOT believe that it CAN fail as you said but yes I do agree that the human element of heretical men who originally with the last legitimate Pope Pius XII had licit ecclesiastical positions but that when they ratified and put into place the policies of a false Vatican II council namely a false liturgy and false ecumenism condemned by Pius XI in Mortalium Animos that they did defect in a manifest way and that their false successors are currently failing. They get a big fat F for False and they fail NOT the Catholic Church, the Bride of Christ. In fact the men running “the show right now” have perpetrated the greatest hoax in history to lead people to think the Eclipse of the Catholic Church which is a foreign body covering the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is actually “the Catholic Church which has failed” . People are leaving this church in droves thinking it to be the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church can NEVER FAIL it does NOT give New Priests and sacraments which Christ did not establish NOR were the successors of Peter promised by the Holy Ghost as Vatican I says contrary to the false saint JP II to make NEW DOCTRINE but to have a “never failing faith” so as to strengthen the brethren and feed the flock. What we have before us is the wolves masquerading as sheep and they are NOT Catholic. They are not even bad Shepherds as Pope Honorius was- no they are usurpers who are actually implementing heresies and false worship. We can NOT recognize their legitimacy because that would be a betrayal of the Catholic martyrs who were put to death rather than worship Man and the False gods that Bergoglio and company are institutionalizing.
Those members of the hierarchy who were legitimately placed in positions of authority by Pius XII certainly did fail except for a few of them. Souls were led astray and people today who follow them and their heretical successors and partners in crime who do not recognize that they are manifest heretics and follow them do fail. I think that we have to be precise in what we are saying so as not to muddy the water even more. The fact is that these heretics who deviate from Catholic teaching with their Amoris laetitia, Prayer Meeting at Assisi I, II, III, church of the New Advent, who are currently running what APPEARS to be the institutional Catholic Church are really only occupiers of Church buildings in Rome because they do NOT possess the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith Outside of which No One Can be Saved nor do they believe in it as their actions and words show. They have rotten fruit -just look at the moral and physical bankruptcy of whole NO Diocese around the world and the closing of old Churches and Catholics losing their faith and leaving it to join protestant faiths, or Eastern religions or turning to atheism. But some of us have returned to the Catholic faith of our Fathers as it was always practiced and this is the only hope. In the Divine Element of the Catholic Church She can never fail and when individuals in their Human Element defect from her in a manifest way they do have the free will to go to Hell but we should not say that the Church can fail as you have said because as St Paul said to Timothy the Church is the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth.
Dear Mr and Mrs Indignus Famulus (!),
Thank God that I just happened to see your reply to me! Thank you very much, dear brother and sister in Christ!
God bless you both and your family. It is the most evil of times, where compromise with grave inherent evils, heresies, apostasy is everywhere, and those who uphold Faith and morals the eternal truth are persecuted including by family members, those who claim to be Catholic, even consecrated, etc. Thank you for your sacrifices for souls: very much penance and atonement is needed. We should all be in sackcloth and ashes till the end of time.
May Our Lord God Almighty help us to persevere in the Holy Faith to death, whether directly at the hands of the enemies of God, or otherwise.
All the graces of Christmas and Epiphany be upon you. Thanks again for your kindness in replying to me.
Your sister in Christ,
Lynda
It is the teaching of the Church that membership in the Church depends on Baptism and holding the Catholic Faith. If any of those are lacking, then one is not a member. It is quite clear that those who were in the institutional Church who introduced all the errors that produced V2 and the NO did not hold the Catholic Faith and therefore the defections that occurred could not come from Holy Mother Church but instead came from imposters whom the laity mistakenly thought were members of the Church’s hierarchy.
Dear Lynda,
You’re so right about these times.
The “diabolical disorientation” seems to be everywhere dividing even the remnant of the Faithful. It get’s depressing and requires us to work and pray constantly to live in Hope if we are to have any joy in our lives. Like Our Lady did, when she recited her Magnificat.
If you read the liturgy of Hours, you may have already seen this, but on December 31st, there was an optional liturgy for Pope St. Sylvester. The second reading in that was a real pick-me-up for us. It was taken from the Ecclesiastical History by St. Eusebius of Caesarea, concerning the time of Peace experienced by the Christians under Constantine.
We can’t help but think it will be like that again, when Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart Triumphs in the end, as promised. What a great thing to ponder in these dark times:
Here it is: Office of Readings SECOND READING
The peace of Constantine
Glory to God the almighty, the King of the universe, for all his gifts, and gratitude to Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of our souls, through whom we pray that this peace may be preserved for us stable and unshaken for ever: a peace that will keep us safe from troubles outside as well as from all anxieties and disturbances of soul. When this bright and radiant day, darkened by no cloud, shone with heavenly light on the churches of Christ throughout the world, even those outside our community, though they had not the same cause for rejoicing, shared at least some of the blessings that God had bestowed on us. For us above all, who had placed our hopes in Christ, there was inexpressible joy and a heavenly happiness shone on every face. Every place that a short time before had been laid waste by the tyrants’ wickedness we now saw restored to life, recovering, as it seemed, from a long and deadly disease. Churches were once again rising from the ground high into the air, far surpassing in splendor and magnificence the ones that had previously been stormed and destroyed.
Then came the spectacle that we had prayed and hoped for: dedication festivals throughout the cities, and the consecration of the newly erected houses of worship. For this there were convocations of bishops, gatherings of pilgrims from far distant lands, warm and loving contact between the different communities, as the members of Christ’s body united in complete harmony. The mysterious prophecy: There came together bone to bone and joint to joint was thus fulfilled, as were all the other prophecies which had been unerringly proclaimed by type and symbol. All the members were filled with the grace of the one divine Spirit, all were of one mind, with the same enthusiasm for the faith, and on the lips of all there was one hymn of praise.
Yes, and our bishops performed religious rites with full ceremonial, priests officiated at the liturgy the solemn ritual of the Church, chanting psalms, proclaiming the other parts of our God-given Scriptures, and celebrating the divine mysteries. Baptism was also administered, the sacred symbol of our Savior’s passion.
Without the slightest distraction, men and women of all ages united in prayer and thanksgiving, their minds and hearts full of joy as they gave glory to God the giver of all good gifts.
====================================================
One of our favorite things from this is that all were of one mind with the same enthusiasm for the Faith . That’s what we pray for when we ask Our Lord to restore His Church Hierarchy.
God bless you with joyful hope.
Indignus famulus
Marie, what you state is the reason why it is foolish for many to put their hope in the Burkes and Schneiders of the world. They are too late and are simply fulfilling their role as controlled opposition. None of these NO conservatives are actually Catholic, they simply disagree with the rate at which the conciliar revolution should progress. It is bewildering to me when the Matts and Skojecs of this world get all excited whenever one of these clowns sounds traditional.
M.C.:
“If you say that faith is the same as Tradition…”
Not in the least do I say that or have I said that. I have said that through Apostolic Tradition we have the means to BE faithful. That said, “faith” is a verb much more than it is a noun. Consider that the devil has plenty of faith, after all, but he isn’t faith-FUL at all because he has utter contempt and hatred towards God. Look at this way- Jesus is recorded saying in Matthew’s Gospel “Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven”.
“The Faith is the truth revealed by God (Who can not deceive or be deceived.) How we are getting to know the Faith? Three ways: Tradition, Scripture, Church’s Teachings. All three elements cooperate with each other. If you narrow the Faith to Tradition only – you are wrong. Tradition of course gives us part of the Faith but not all. What’s more, we can not be sure that every catholic tradition is infallible by itself. Usually, the longer the tradition lasts, the more certitude we can apply to it, but we do need Teaching and Bible.”
I would say rather that Jesus is the Truth revealed about God.
I agree with you that we “know the Faith”…which is to say learn to BE faithful…through those means you mention. I would add though that Scripture is part of Tradition and not a different thing from it. In fact, Scripture emerged from the broader unwritten Tradition.
I also agree with your understanding of the role of the Pope of Rome as a guardian of Tradition. I would that however that this applies to any other bishop just as much as it does to the bishop/Pope of Rome. As far as the Pope’s status and esteem within the institutional Church, that’s a historical question which is beyond the scope of my post here, both in terms of relevance and time and space constraints.
“When you say ‘There is no such thing as “Faith”. It’s a pure abstraction. There are only people who are faithful to Jesus.’ you call what God revealed to us “pure abstraction” and make god of “the people. Not good.”
That’s precisely what I haven’t done. I have used the term “faith” in a very concrete way- BEING faithful to Jesus. In no wise does this make faith “of the people” in the sense I believe you mean.
As far as WHAT God revealed to us, it is indeed very concrete. It is a Person: Jesus- Who IS God’s Own self-Revelation. No mere abstraction there whatsoever. We know, and thereby grow love Him, through knowing and henceforth living the Tradition passed down from His Apostles. That’s the essence of BEING faithful.
Respectfully, in the sense you use the word “Faith”, it is quite abstract and can lead to much confusion. I prefer “Apostolic Tradition”. The reason I prefer it is because it is the very foundation of the faith we have in Jesus, and therefore the ultimate recourse we have in matters of actually being faithful to Him and all that comes forth from that. Not to be repetitive, but it’s bit of a confusing tautology to say that there’s some “Faith” out there somewhere in the ether which people are faithful to. The simple fact is that we’re faithful to Jesus.
“Tradition of course gives us part of the Faith but not all.”
I would agree with you if by this you mean that Apostolic Tradition does require some explanation by way of catechetics and some careful and minimal and minimally speculative theologizing. This can happen at any level: from a teacher catechizing young children to a Pope issuing an encyclical setting straight some issue directly relevant to Tradition. That said, Apostolic Tradition is nonetheless our bedrock of faithfulness to Jesus. The buck stops there, in other words.
P.S. I apologize if my reply is difficult to read. The limited ability to format text in this combox is quite frustrating.
“None of these NO conservatives are actually Catholic, they simply disagree with the rate at which the conciliar revolution should progress.”
Gives a whole new slant to the adage that today’s conservative being yesterday’s liberal.
The preeminent ones like George Weigel and Robby George are nothing more than trite, paid-off moralists and ethicists struggling upholding a towering and yet crumbling edifice they call “Catholicism” in order to serve political ends such as American foreign policy run amok by abusing just war theory, or justify some vague laissez-faire “free market” nightmare by co-opting a genuinely Catholic sense and understanding of justice and distorting it.
Completely useless and worthless in their own respects, just like Burke and Schneider are in theirs.
We need to get back to square one in order to begin to get out of this shitshow. I repeat the word “shitshow” because that’s what it is. And square one is Apostolic Tradition and a metaphysic which is firmly grounded in Being.
As much as I honor and respect the late Msgr. Lefebvre, and as much as I believe we all owe him a great debt of gratitude in fending off the Roman Rite of Mass from the wolves, I believe even he would be at a great loss truly understanding what’s transpired in recent times with both Ratzinger and Bergoglio.
“fending off the wolves from the Roman Rite of Mass”… typo
Marie Tageye:
Who makes up the institutional Church of Rome? It is the bishop and his clergy and all those others. Unless there’s some shadow Church located in the area of Rome, I know of no others.
They’ve gone off the rails liturgically, doctrinally and even morally en masse in a sort of gradual train wreck over the past several decades until now we witness this Francis character.
Therefore, I think one can validly say that the Church of Rome has indeed defected from Tradition. Or as you and others here put it. “lost the faith”.
With all due respect to both you and others here. I think we all need to face this fact and stop trying to theologize our way out of it all: Rome and its Pope are a lost cause for now and for the foreseeable future. But that doesn’t mean Jesus has betrayed us or lied to us. Not in the least. It’s rather WE as lay people, and THEY in the Roman Church, who betray Jesus by not being faithful to Him.
We have got to stop conflating the institution Church with being faithful. Being faithful sometime can mean defying “official authorities” because they have strayed from Apostolic Tradition. Aquinas understood this well, as did Bellarmine even though he was tempted to give into the temptation of “indefectability” and assert that God would perform a miracle preventing the Roman Church and its Pope from defecting.
Point is this: based on the ongoing nightmare of V2 and its New Order, the institution is clearly very defectable and fallible, but Tradition is not. It is our bedrock and final recourse to being faithful to Jesus. How else would we even KNOW that Rome and its pope have defected if we didn’t have at least a somewhat decent sense of Tradition??
Thank you, Mr and Mrs. May Our Lord God keep you and your family safe from all harm in Faith and morals. Lord, have mercy! Oh Sacred Heart of Jesus, I place all my trust in Thee! Immaculate Heart of Mary, intercede for us! Viva Cristo Rey!
Your sister in Christ,
Lynda Finneran
NobisQuoquePeccatoribus I would not put it quite as you have here:
“Rome and its Pope are a lost cause for now and for the foreseeable future”
As no “pope in his public declarations for the universal church can ever be “lost” because Vatican I said that the Pope would have a never failing faith and he is infallible” in a nutshell so you should clean up your statement. I don’t think you meant it that way. I hope not. These Vatican II “popes” are simply NOT popes but rather FALSE POPES as there is NO true pope anywhere since Pius XII that I know of so we could call them “anti-popes” but there is NO earthly pope for them to oppose to put the prefix “anti” in front of the name “pope” so perhaps it is better to just call them FALSE popes and as a pope can NOT be a public heretic because he would ipso facto fall from the chair of Peter ( think it is really hard to understand what is really going on with how he gets kicked out when no one is giving him the boot situation which just shows the seriousness of this great apostasy) we could also call the “Vatican II Pseudo Popes” or “UN-popes” with a small “p” popes because they UN- do anything a true pope would do or has done. I don’t know if that makes sense to you or not. They also fit into the UN- United Nations One World Religions initiative. Some people think there could be a “secret pope” somewhere but Pius XII said that a pope would have to be visible because the Church is visible.
And Tom A I am not keen on the Matts or Skojacs either. I agree that these conservatives don’t appear to be Catholic probably because they are really confused but there is hope for them and all of us if we keep praying and reading Church documents before the Apostasy began. I think it is pretty hard to live in this age of Apostasy and not get confused and as they say there but for the grace of God go I. I was raised in the Novus Ordo and got out and if I could do it anyone can. It is a real journey to get out of it. We have to pray that we do not get led astray and work out our salvation as St. Paul tells us in fear and trembling.
FormerSede let us look at what you said and analyze it “ It is the logic of sedevacantism. First you reject the pope, then you reject the Church. Louie Verrechio is now a public heretic, or as Bellarmine would say, a manifest heretic. Sede vantists reject a man who purports to be the pope but is a manifest public heretic who contradicts past popes, past perennial magisteriums and Church teachings NOT popes who represent Church teaching. It is the current pseudo church authorities in what appears to be as NobisQuoquePeccatoribus calls the “institutional” appears to be catholic church but is NOT who occupy Catholic Churches who reject Church teaching such as marriage between one man and one woman or NO communion to divorced and remarried who have not gone through the process of an annulment that in fact are the heretics and NOT Louis Verrechio. Your logic contradicts the facts of the mess that we are in and it is NOT caused by the Catholics who point to the guy who has NO cloths on and is NOT even an emperor. Look at all of the innocence lost and doctrine lost and this is caused by the men at the top who lead the banner of the Vatican II church of Rebellion against the Catholic Church the bride of Christ and Her groom Jesus Christ her head is the same today, yesterday and forever.
In caritas you said here :
Now and again from, “Satis Cognitum”, we have the Holy Father Leo XIII Authoritatively teaching as infallibly, that the, “Magisterium”, IS BOTH THE, “TEACHING AUTHORITY”, of the Catholic Church, while it is also (as both/and), “TO BE PERPETUAL”. We know as a matter deFide, that Blessed Peter in his Successors, has not been in the world since the death of Pope Pius XII, Oct. 9, 1958. We also know as a matter deFide, as per, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, that Apostolic Succession was forever lost 18 days after his death on Oct. 27, 1958, when a non-Canonical as false Conclave was held. We know this because Angelo Roncalli had been known as having had deviated from the Catholic Faith years before his faux election to the See of Peter. Amen.”
APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION WAS NOT FOREVER LOST 18 DAYS AFTER THE DEATH OF ANY FALSE POPE OR ANTIPOPE OR EVEN A TRUE POPE THAT DIES. Historical proof is when Pope Gregory XII resigned in 1415 during the Council of Constance & Great Western Schism because of all the confusion (and no longer a real pope because of Gregory’s resignation) and the Church supplied jurisdiction even though there was antipope/ false pope John XXIII and antipope/false pope Benedict XIII claiming to be the true pope (even until the time he died in 1423) now then there were still priests being ordained and Bishops consecrated even though there was NO true pope for over 2 and half years and of course people went to Masses when two men claimed to be popes and were false popes/ anti-popes and NO POPE was on the earth till they elected Pope Martin in 1417. So what you are saying that “apostolic succession” ends just because of antipopes or false popes or no pope is a FALSE STATEMENT or even if it be over 40 years with no pope until a true pope is elected which is what the Jesuit Edmund James O’Reilly said in 1882. You are wrong on this point. I really don’t understand what you are trying to get at. If it is that you think we don’t have any more priests or Bishops because of this apostasy you are WRONG ON THIS POINT because Christ said to his apostles that he would NOT leave them orphans. Just because Catholics do NOT have a pope on the Chair of Peter does not mean that there are no true priests or Bishops somewhere. The Church, even if it has to go underground and is obscured, is still for the real Catholics who are left in desperate times (such as the Apostasy in England) are still going to be able to find the “priests in hiding” and in the case say of Japan where they had no valid priests or Bishops in their local country Christ eventually did send them some later in the 1800’s and there were and always will be somewhere true priests and Bishops. So NO I do not agree that Apostolic Succession “was forever lost”. That is poppycock and does not hold up to historical analysis or what is happening today. Now you might quibble about licit and so forth but in a state of emergency our Lord himself will provide emergency rations for the faithful. The perpetual succession means that there will after a valid papal election be a valid successor of Peter and not as some protestant sects who believe that after Peter died there was NO more leader over the Church like him. The difficult struggle today is that the elections have been invalid due to manifest heretics running the show. They have been the successors of the “Eclipse crowd” overshadowing the One, Holy and Apostolic Bride of Christ. The guys in there now are the Bride of FrankiStine Rome will lose the faith or if you will the “Externalization of the Hierarchy errors of Russia” {duped fathers of Vatican II’s double Dutch documents mixing some truth with the massive poison of Madame Blavatsky via Teilhard de Chardin Guadium et spes Man is = to God as first Commandment time bombs in sec 24 creating a phony Man Centered Mass and schisms out the wazoo) and becomes the seat of the Anti-Christ multitude over the NO assemble. So our Lord is NOT going to leave us without a few “white knights” in the form of true Bishops as the successors of the Apostles who one day after the Great Chastisement will in fact appoint a true Pope or Peter himself will come down. With what you are saying it would really be totally 100 percent chaotic with NO apostolic succession and NO priesthood. The apostles of Christ do NOT cease to exist but they are greatly reduced. These Apostolic Succession priests and Bishops today are the ones who know the fake ones are worse than the Arian Heretics because they cave into Modernism which is the synthesis of all Heresies headed up by the NO-popes of the Vatican II FALSE ROBBER COUNCIL. God sent the people who want the false shepherds their errant heart’s desire as a “sign of contradiction” for they want to believe a lie instead of the truth and this is what the “operation of error” is. It is time for people to come out of the NO Hierarchy, and for the NO Hierarchy= Novus Ordo Hierarchy to realize they have been duped as well as the laity who attends the Novus Ordo Vatican II false ecumenical churches and get conditional ordination by real Bishops because of this Apostate fraud of the Eclipsing false church will only get worse till it finally becomes apparent to people that it is really Satan running this “institution” of the “Vatican II” or “ Conciliar church” as Archbishop Lefebvre , Cardinal Benelli and de Lubac aptly called it the church of Apostasy. The simplicity of the truth is totally proved in all its parts and it is absolutely true that in the Divine Element of the Church she is the unspotted Holy and Chaste Bride of Christ and not the Whore of Mystery Babylon crowd for which Bergoglio Directs the Vatican II Bride of Frankistine church with a small c for charade or chameleon as in taking on whatever heresy drives the heard but which will eventually I am happy to say disappear along with Paul VI smoke of Satan which he let in on purpose to” fool it were possible even the elect”. Our Lady will crush these heretics with Her Heal and our Lord will slay them as it says [8] And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming”
NobisQuoquePeccatoribus,
I apologize if my reply is difficult to read. The limited ability to format text in this combox is quite frustrating.
No need to apologize. It is hard to format text in combox but also combox wasn’t designed for long speeches nor for extended discussions. So don’t worry about that but rather try to keep focused on the subject (like you do).
Regarding what ‘the Faith’ really is.
You say different things. “There is no such thing as ‘Faith’. It’s a pure abstraction.” , “through Apostolic Tradition we have the means to BE faithful.”, “I have used the term ‘faith’ in a very concrete way- BEING faithful to Jesus”, “devil has plenty of faith”, “but he isn’t faith-FUL at all”. This list is not complete.
I’m sure that you have all that sitting in your had the way you see no contradictions, but listen, I’m not Sigmunt Freud. My goal is not to make sense from what you are saying but rather steer you in right direction.
Today’s feast (Holly Name) is perfect timing. The names have meanings. The same way words need to have meanings to avoid chaos. I tried to stick to catholic definition of word ‘faith’. If you want to talk about being faithfull, talk about being faithful, if faith, for you, is the same as being faithfull to Our Lord what about being faightfull to Holly Spirit, etc. I know you can present me explanation of that, but it is much better to stick to recognized words definitions – this way you make communication possible or, at least, you save plenty of time. By changing meaning of the words from sentence to sentence you make it much harder to read and understand, than lack of formatting capabilities in combox.
The bottom line is this: (1) do you recognize catholic def of ‘faith’, (2) do you agree with it or do you want to understand it.
As a reminder; our discussion arose as a side-topic to what I’ve tried to explore from Tom’s A post: no corruption of the Faith is possible since if there is a defection, that person no longer belongs to the Church. That sentence in proper understanding is correct, but in false understanding can lead to false conclusions, in this case to sedevacantism. I did not have any answer to that.
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As I said I appreciate you staying on topic and not bringing post-conciliar popes to discussion for example. Now let me to do exactly that, to deviate from the topic (because I think I can not add much more to it) to express some observations with hope that some souls not fallen into sede can be saved.
Firstly, when I read your answer I thought of your position as equivalent to sola scriptura of protestants (with tradition replacing the Bible). I was wrong. I thought that because I see many parallels between methods Satan used through protestants and what he is achieving though Sedevacantism. For example Luther had enormous hatred to papacy. To this days protestants librarians are ashamed of some of his publications and very reluctantly made them available to (some, not all) researchers. The same here, with the difference that hatred is focused on post-concliliar popes. Once this hatred is established, person is left with his own mind to create any narrative to cover any doubts and desires to return to the Church. That’s why I see so many ‘explanations’ why there was no popes from V2 and why the Catholic Church is ‘bad’. Look at protestantysm, how many denominations, how many doctrines – anything goes but the Church.
Did you hear recent story about those Scottish hermits? I’m almost sure that they were exposed to some Sede arguments. As a result they left the Church. Of course they have their own narrative, but Satan doesn’t care about that. What is important – they are no longer members of the Catholic Church. I will pray for their haste return as much as for return of sede from this forum.
I hope Louie will wake up and realize that something needs to be done because Catholics coming to his blog are grossly exposed to dangerous sede propaganda. Don’t know what the solution might be but anything is better than exposing souls to danger.
M.C.:
“As a reminder; our discussion arose as a side-topic to what I’ve tried to explore from Tom’s A post: no corruption of the Faith is possible since if there is a defection, that person no longer belongs to the Church. That sentence in proper understanding is correct, but in false understanding can lead to false conclusions, in this case to sedevacantism. I did not have any answer to that.”
That is why I suggested in my initial comment which began this exchange between you and me that it might be a good idea to use “Tradition” or “Apostolic Tradition” instead of “The Faith”. Tradition is very concrete because it pertains to historical events, specifically God’s historical Self-revelation in the Person of Jesus. “The Faith” seems a bit vague at best, especially in the sort of sense you and Tom A. were using it re “corruptibility” and such. It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to say that there is a thing called “The Faith” which is incorruptible. It’s a careless use of words. Consider this: there are tenants of faith, found in Apostolic Tradition, which cannot be denied without denying one’s faith in Jesus. The Nicene Creed summarizes them very well.
Finally, think about what Paul wrote to the Thessalonians: “Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word [that is, spoken word], or by our epistle.”
“Did you hear recent story about those Scottish hermits? I’m almost sure that they were exposed to some Sede arguments. As a result they left the Church. “
I know of the little monkish group on Orkney and the statement they issued. I can agree with the essence of both what they wrote and actually did. They’ve recognized that Francis/Bergoglio is a massive, ongoing scandal on multiple levels and have publicly denounced him as such and separated themselves from him. I can’t argue with that. I agree with them wholeheartedly. It’s difficult to see how anyone who would adhere to Tradition and be faithful to Jesus can follow a character like Francis/Bergoglio.
Whether they were directly influenced by sede-vacantism is not entirely clear because there is no reference to it. But what is clear is that they’ve effectively become sede-vacantists. Personally I don’t see anything in holding the opinion that a recognized pope isn’t actually pope which goes against Tradition…and I’ll speculate a little and say that it might very well be the first step out of the institutional mess we find ourselves in. There are however deeper, fundamental problems with sede-vacantism however, but that’s beyond the scope of our discussion.
“Of course they have their own narrative, but Satan doesn’t care about that. What is important – they are no longer members of the Catholic Church.”
Ask yourself this:
Does being “members of the Catholic Church” boil down to little more than outwardly following some guy who is recognized as Pope, right or wrong?
Or is it rather about knowing and adhering to Apostolic Tradition and through that being faithful to Jesus if and when the visible, human institutions go awry…and even should the institutions should practically vanish? Put simply, isn’t it about “standing fast” as Paul wrote to the Thessalonians nearly 2,000 years ago?
Think about this: Jesus didn’t say “Peter is the vine, and you are the branches”. He said “I AM the vine…”.
Personally, I’m against “keeping up appearances” or “maintaining the appearance of the law” when underneath of it all there is nothing but corruption and betrayal. The Pharisees did just that, and Jesus denounced them as “whited sepulchres…within…full of dead men’s bones”. That’s the same situation we’re all facing now with the institutional Roman Catholic Church, from top to bottom. And it so happens that the man at the very top is the worst one of all.
We’re all going to have to face all of this it sooner or later if we’re going be be TRULY Christian and Catholic and FAITHFUL. These are unprecedented events and circumstances- practically the entire Roman Church is off the rails of Tradition. Although history offers regrettably us little in the way of knowing what to do in terms of specific PRECEDENCE, it DOES offer us the ability to know, through Tradition, what Jesus would have us do and thereby what the Church truly is. We can’t sit back and rely on the institution now. They’ve betrayed us the wolves.
Marie Tageye, you wrote
“As no “pope in his public declarations for the universal church can ever be “lost” because Vatican I said that the Pope would have a never failing faith and he is infallible”…”
Do you believe that Francis/Bergoglio possesses a “never failing faith” and is consequentially (or not??) “infallible”?
Marie Tageye:
Another question: do you believe that being faithful consists of being in union with the Pope, or rather of being in union with Jesus?
NobisQuoquePeccatoribus
I don’t think Franki Bergoglio is the pope at all. He is worse than a heretic for he is an apostate. No one in there right mind would want to be in union with an Apostate. Do you think Bergoglio is the pope???
You asked me this”Another question: do you believe that being faithful consists of being in union with the Pope, or rather of being in union with Jesus?”
If you or anyone is in union with a true Pope and not an anti-pope/ false pope then yes you would be in union with Jesus Christ AND the pope because the Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth. These Vatican II clowns that have been in since 1958 though were and are the Vicar for The UN ie Sustainable Development & the United Nations Religious Initiative. They put a few Catholic statements in with the many false statements so as to confuse if it were possible even the elect. Bergoglio’s faith failed due to heresy and Apostasy before he took office so as Pope Paul IV said regarding this sort of situation his election would be totally null and void. The Shepherd was struck and there is NO Pope since 1958 so the sheep have been scattered. What we are dealing with today is an Eclipse of the Catholic Church as Our Lady La Salette warned us of and that Rome would Lose the Faith and become the Seat of the Anti-Christ.
NobisQuoquePeccatoribus,
I suggested in my initial comment which began this exchange between you and me that it might be a good idea to use “Tradition” or “Apostolic Tradition” instead of “The Faith”.
No, it is not good idea.
I understand that when Tom A and I were talking about faith we were talking about the same thing – as defined in catholic catechism.
I was looking for def in Baltimore Cath. to copy/paste it for you but didn’t find it. I use Card Gaspari’s version where this matter is better explained (or it was just my inability to find it in on line short seach), anyway as I said couple of times: the Faith is very well defined and there is no need to invent other terms for the same meaning.
Your attempt to replace ‘faith’ with words ‘being faithful to Jesus’ or ‘tradition’ may, in some understanding, be close to org meaning of ‘faith’, but is so unprecise that reminds me of protestant’s attempt to undermine catholic teaching, or of language of V2 where quite wild interpretations are possible. Replacing ‘faith’ with ‘tradition’ only introduce confusion as those are not the same things in definition.
For quick example: Before dogma about Immaculate Conception Catholics could hold that Mary, Mother of God, was born without oryginal sin, or they can hold that it wasn’t the case, without committing a sin. Immaculate Conception although included in tradition wasn’t yet precised, so it wasn’t part of Deposit Of Faith. Announcement of Dogma clarified this matter and from this moment one can not hold opinion contrary to Dogma. See difference between ‘faith’ and ‘tradition’?
Today we have similar situation with question did Mary died before She was taken to heaven or not. I can provide you good arguments for both cases, but I do not know how it really was. Maybe, some day, it will be revealed to me through the Church. If so I will accept that with no problems. But this question has no answer in tradition.
As an opposite example: if somebody says that Mary, following Her Son, entered sheol before Her Assumption, that would be contrary to tradition.
I hope that if you think about those examples it will become clear the we can not replace ‘faith’ with ‘tradition’.
Can you provide precise definition of words ‘faith’ and ‘tradition’ in your meaning, so there is no any confusion? If you can, why would you want to do this? What for?
Tradition is very concrete because it pertains to historical events, specifically God’s historical Self-revelation in the Person of Jesus.
No, tradition is not concrete unless it is part of the Faith. If you limit tradition to historical Self-revelation in the Person of Jesus, does it mean that you reject works of Holy Spirit?
“The Faith” seems a bit vague at best,
It seems that is vague only for you. Others use definition and this definition is quite precise. The Faith is incorruptible because it is Truth revealed by God – that is in meaning ‘Deposit Of Faith’ or ‘Treasure Of Faith’. We, Tom A and I, were using that meaning, not the other: ‘virtue allowing to accept what was revealed’ – I think this was pretty obvious from the context.
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Scottish hermits
I also don’t know much about them. It was just a guess that they were exposed to sede – I was looking at the results.
Ask yourself this:
Does being “members of the Catholic Church” boil down to little more than outwardly following some guy who is recognized as Pope
No, it does not boil down to following some guy even if you mean a pope. Here I can copy/paste you Baltimore C.:
”’
136. What is the Church?
The Church is the congregation of all baptized persons united in the same true faith, the same sacrifice, and the same sacraments, under the authority of the Sovereign Pontiff and the bishops in communion with him.
”’
Simple definition. You know the quote when Our Lord says: Peter, you are the rock, on you I will build my Church (from memory).
No pope – no Church. Pretty simple. You can say that it is tradition: where is Peter, there is the Church.
This does not mean blindly following. Many saints and popes themselves say that it is our duty to resist if pope deviates from the Faith (you see how handy is that we know exactly what the Faiths is?). Blindly following a pope is called papalatria and is condemned.
This is not the place, but you can study what ‘the obedience’ means. In general, as obedience to superiors and in particular – to a pope. If you confuse those things strange outputs are probable, those outputs can place you outside the Church – watch you mind! it is ready to deceive you.
Put simply, isn’t it about “standing fast” as Paul wrote to the Thessalonians nearly 2,000 years ago?
No, it is not. There is name for this ‘adherence to the past’, I forgot the name. It is also condemned, because by doing so you reject the Holy Ghost’s role in the Church.
Think about this: Jesus didn’t say “Peter is the vine, and you are the branches”. He said “I AM the vine…”.
Nobody says Peter is the vine. He is the vicar. You want to be faightfull to Jesus and at the same time reject Peter while He said: Peter, feed My sheep. Interesting…
Personally, I’m (…)
“Don’t believe everything you think.”
NobisQuoquePeccatoribus,
sorry, correction.
From previous post:
”’
Put simply, isn’t it about “standing fast” as Paul wrote to the Thessalonians nearly 2,000 years ago?
No, it is not. There is name for this ‘adherence to the past’, I forgot the name. It is also condemned, because by doing so you reject the Holy Ghost’s role in the Church.
”’
I answered to different question. I answered to: should we hold on exactly to what Catholics were doing 2000 years ago.
You asked about something else. The answer is of course ‘Yes’ we have to hold fast. St Paul was talking about the Faith (tradition, teachings and scripture). There was no precise definition of faith or the Faith rather (I suppose). He just called everything ‘tradition’. That ‘everything’ was later defined as ‘the Faith’. I don’t see any reasons to think that thought of st Paul was anyhow changed later in Church’s teaching.
In case anyone missed it, Un Caritas has been caught misrepresenting Pius XII’s legislation on Papal Elections, and lying about the number of days it took to elect John XXIII. Here’s what the deceiver wrote:
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Un Caritas: “Okay now you poor, poor, miscreant fool Marie Tageye, the floor is now yours. Demonstrate now for all eyes to see, precisely how Pope Pius XII somehow DID NOT MEAN WHAT HE MEANT, when he utterly as literally and pristinely commanded that the business of electing the next Roman Pontiff MUST BEGIN BY DAY 18, WITHOUT ANY DISTINCTIONS, THEREFORE WITHOUT ANY EXCEPTIONS, and with the consequence of ANYTHING occurring apart from his precise commands, as being, “NULL and VOID”. Amen. Alleluia.”
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The truth is that Pius XII allowed 20 days for the conclave to meet, not 18. And the conclave that elected John XXIII met in 16 days, not 19, as Un Caritas has been claiming.
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Pope Pius XII, Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis, #37: “We also prescribe that after the death of the pontiff the cardinals present are to wait 15 full days for the absent cardinals. Permission is granted the Sacred College of Cardinals to delay the beginning of the conclave for a few more days; however, ONCE 20 DAYS AT MOST HAVE PASSED, THE CARDINAL ELECTORS PRESENT ARE TO ENTER THE CONCLAVE AND PROCEED TO THE BUSINESS OF THE ELECTION.”
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Pius XII died on October 9, 1958
The conclave convened on October 25, 1958
That’s 16 days.
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“Following the death of Pope Pius XII on 9 October 1958, the papal conclave of 1958 met from 25 to 28 October and on the eleventh ballot elected Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli, Patriarch of Venice, to succeed him. He accepted the election and took the name John XXIII. … ALL THE CARDINALS WHO MADE THE TRIP REACHED ROME BY 22 OCTOBER WITH DAYS TO SPARE BEFORE THE CONCLAVE BEGAN 16 DAYS AFTER PIUS’ DEATH.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958_papal_conclave
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Now, Un Caritas, let’s see if you have the humility to retract your lies and errors and apologize to everyone for attempting to deceive them. If you refuse to do so – and we both know you will – it will confirm that you are puffed up with pride, just like your Father (John 8:44), and reveal the source of your blindness. “God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.”(James 4:6)