At a conference hosted this week at Catholic University in Washington, D.C. marking the 50th anniversary of the utterly devastating, error-ridden Vatican II document, Nostra Aetate, Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, President of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue told Catholic News Service:
Despite 50 years of ‘Nostra Aetate,’ we [Catholics, Muslims and Jews] still don’t know each other well enough … Most of the problems we face are problems of ignorance.
I would have to agree; at least insofar as the suggestion that ignorance is a major problem.
It would seem that many our Churchmen today, not coincidentally the very ones leading the interreligious dialogue charge for the Holy See, appear entirely ignorant of Our Blessed Lord’s very clear and unambiguous words telling us pretty everything we need to know about these other religions, “He who rejects me rejects Him who sent me.”
Also among the lineup of prelates who addressed the conference was Cardinal Kurt Koch, who heads up the Church’s dialogue with the Jews.
According to a report by Vatican Radio, Cardinal Koch noted:
While the Church has ongoing bilateral talks with Jewish and Muslim religious leaders, it may be too early to engage in a ‘trialogue’ among the three monotheistic faiths.
A trialogue! These people can’t be serious!
It is tantamount to blasphemy to lump together Christianity, Judaism, and Islam under any title, the most insidious of which is “the three monotheistic faiths,” as if we worship one and the same God.
In the case of the Jews, the God of their Scriptures is indeed the God of revelation, but let us not forget that, objectively speaking, they rejected Him by rejecting Christ.
As for the Muslims, the “Allah” of their unholy writ is nothing more than the figment (planted by Satan) of Muhammad’s twisted imagination. It matters not one whit how much of the content in their book of fables, the Qur’an, was stolen from Divine Revelation.
Cardinal Koch continued:
We don’t have trialogue and for us it is too early to make this because sometimes we speak about an Abrahamitic ecumenism – this is very clear – it is a good issue. But on the other hand, we have a very, very different interpretation of Abraham and we cannot deny this issue. And in the interreligious discussion, it is very important to treat also this difference that we have in the interpretation of Abraham.
I suppose it never occurred to His Eminent Dialoguer-Would-Be Trialoguer that we “have a very different interpretation of God” as it concerns both Judaism and Islam, the latter obviously being much more severe.
Asked if Muslim and Jewish religious leaders would be open to trialogue and if this could perhaps pave the way to improved relations among all three, Cardinal Koch responded:
We hope that we can go in this [direction] in future but we have in every religion, we have opposition. We have open leaders, we have open Muslim leaders, we have open Christian leaders, but we have opposition in all the three religions. We have also opposition in the Catholic Church against Nostra Aetate. The same groups, they are against ecumenism, against interreligious dialogue, against the religious freedom declaration. And I think that they are minorities. We must go on the basis of the Second Vatican Council with the high authority of the Catholic Church and we cannot deny this very important influence.
Cardinal Koch spoke a number of important truths here:
1) There is indeed opposition to Nostra Aetate, Unitatis Redintegratio, and Dignitatis Humanae among Catholics
That would include people like me, most of the readers of this space, and the entire SSPX.
2) This opposition is “in the Catholic Church;” i.e., one need not accept these horrendous documents, one of which even goes so far as to misappropriate Sacred Scripture, in order to remain in the Church.
3) We are a minority as, apparently, the diabolical disorientation of which Our Lady spoke has infected the majority.
Cardinal Koch, did, however, contradict himself when he said, “We must go on the basis of the Second Vatican Council with the high authority of the Catholic Church…”
Nonsense. Vatican Council II does not represent the “high authority of the Catholic Church.” It taught precisely nothing binding that was not already binding prior to the regrettable event, and errors, such as those contained in the conciliar text (including Nostra Aetate) are never binding.
Yes… Cardinal Tauran was most certainly right: when it comes to interreligious dialogue, ignorance is a major problem.
Chilling to read words that sound alien and realize they are coming from the mouths (both sides too!!) of bishops in The Catholic Church.
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It’s not so much ignorance as an incorrect basis for ‘their’ truth. Modernism stems from a twisting of reason because correct philosophy and theology has been jettisoned.
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We must know the enemy and why they think the way they do. Here’s an article from Christian Order of a few years back. It’s a summary of Pascendi written by Father Godfrey Carney and explains (in summary) why Catholics and pseudo-Catholics don’t understand each other. Informative.
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http://www.christianorder.com/features/features_2014/features_augsep14.html
Trialogue? Seriously? Do these people sit around make up this junk while watching “Grey’s Anatomy” or is it just me? May Our Lord have mercy on all of these lost and messed up leaders in the Church.
Thank you Louie for charitably calling out there repeated errors. You are so kind to put up with their insanity for this long:+) God bless~
Cardinal Tauran: “Most of the problems we face are problems of ignorance.”
Indeed. Problems of ignorance on the part of the conciliar church-men:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/myths-of-islam.htm
The fools will be making nice-nice right up until the time the jihadis cut their throats.
Mike Poulin
These ecumaniacs can’t seem to break out of the infinite loop of dialoguing about dialog. Church leaders act as though there’s something still hidden in these false religions that will reconcile them with the Catholic Faith if only they can tease it out.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. – Albert Einstein
On a log, sat a frog,
croaking through the morning fog:
“Monologue monologue
me myself and I in bog”..
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Second froggy hops in there
croaking “Hey we make a pair!
Dialoge, dialogue
you and I can share this bog!”
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Third new hopper comes on in,
(croaking now makes quite a din)
“Trialouge, trialouge!
Room for all in this here bog!”
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But froggy three has other plans,
including breakfast, this matins
With one quick lunge he grabbed and held
then gulped them down, (with gullet swelled).
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The moral of this story friends:
Beware the Bull–that’s how it ends.
🙂 🙂
http://www.fishpondinfo.com/photos/amphibians/bullfrogs/birdfrog2.jpg
Make it stop.
I reckon there is a reason that the most evil man who will ever live is called the Antichrist and not called the Antigod. Because, as we can see, if he were called the Antigod the current antichrist ecumenists would gather everyone who worshipped a ‘god’ and call them the ‘body of god’ in which one can have full or partial communion. But one who is Antichrist is, plainly, against Our Lord Jesus Christ, second person of the Most Holy Trinity, Three Divine Persons of Equal Dignity Who are ONE TRUE GOD (a Truth the koran openly, in its JPII kissed pages, calls ‘sh**’)
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Highlighted in Louie’s post yesterday: “The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium.” (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, 1896) “whoever would recede in the least degree”…the ‘degrees’ of full to partial salvation made-up by VII and its disciples is 360. They reject/defect from the ‘ONE DEGREE’ taught by the True Church.
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The Rabbis and their adherents remain ‘confounded’ and ‘ungodly’ due to perfidy: http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/GenJews.pdf
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“St. Paul on the Jews: In Galatians V:4 he says that the Jews have fallen from grace: “You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace.” In Romans IX:32-33, he says that they have stumbled through their rejection of Christ: “For they stumbled at the stumblingstone. As it is written: Behold I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and a rock of scandal; and whosoever believeth in Him (the stumbling block, that is to say Christ) shall not be confounded.” In Romans XI:7-8, St. Paul says that the Jews are blinded, and have the spirit of insensibility: “What then? That which Israel sought, he hath not obtained: but the election hath obtained it; and the rest have been blinded. As it is written: God hath given them the spirit of insensibility; eyes that they should not see; and ears that they should not hear, until this present day.” In Romans XI: 27-30, St. Paul says that the fulfillment of His covenant with the Jews will be the removal of their ungodliness, which is their sin, and that they are enemies of the gospel, and that they are guilty of unbelief: “There shall come out of Sion, he that shall deliver, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. And this is to them my covenant: when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, indeed, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are most dear for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance. For as you also in times past did not believe God, but now have obtained mercy, through their unbelief.” In II Corinthians 13-15, St. Paul says that there is a veil on their hearts, and that the Old Testament is void: “And not as Moses put a veil upon his face, that the children of Israel might not steadfastly look on the face of that which is made void. But their senses were made dull. For, until this present day, the selfsame veil, in the reading of the old testament, remaineth not taken away (because in Christ it is made void). But even until this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.”
a sentiment I second.
Their ‘trialogue’, will split like mutant cells to become quadralogue, which will split again to become quintalogue and then sextalogue, which all have their shallow anti-Catholic mutant cell source in the VII definition of’dialogue’. Fr Cekada, I think, coined the term: FRANKENCHURCH (a mutant ecclessial and ex ecclessial body made up of heretics, schismatics and, lets face it, antichrist religionists). The VII disciples are determined that, like the Superstate of 1984, no one can escape from Frankenchurch. They have invented a doctrine that ensnares every falsehood and partial truth under one Supercreed umbrella. Happily those who ahdere to Truth and seek to diverge not even ‘one degree’ are outside Frankenchurch and still belong to the Beautiful Body of Christ.
ha ha 😀
Trialogue? Why not quadralogue? Are these people prejudiced against Buddhism, Hinduism, Quetzalcoatlism, etc.?
And what about pentalogue, sextalogue and septalogue?
It irks me seriously that good-faith Animists and Wiccans, among others, are left out of this crucial dialog. How long will this triumphalism and ridiculous obsession with truth prevail?
As a matter of fact, I myself have done some critical work in the field of least-common-denominator ecumenism, and have produced a set of objective truths accepted by ALL faiths:
– 2 + 2 = (approximately) 4
– Some butterflies are yellow
Now lets all hold holds and belt-out a kumbaya – we did it.
Hey, what about ZOROASTRIANS!!
After all – just like Mohameddans, they worship the “one ‘god’ ” don’t they?
That’s so MEAN to them that they should be left out! We’re all about FEELINGS these days aren’t we?
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I suggest we get rid of all this “trialog” non-sense and hold another “gazillion-log” event “a la” Assisi ’86.
Now – that would be REAL ecumenism! No one left out… Now we can all hold hands and hug each other. It’s giving the warm and fuzzies already just thinking about it! 😉
Dear All,
We find great inspiration for perseverance in fighting these errors of false ecumenism- in learning more about the actions of great Saints of the past.
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In 2008 Tom Drolesky exposed the disdain in Joseph Ratzinger’s 2000 book-“God and the World”, for “Christian hotheads and fanatics who destroyed temples, who were unable to see paganism as anything more than idolatry that had to be radically eliminated.”
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Drolesky then provided three examples of these so called “Christian hotheaded fanatics” whom he says were “driven by the same, immutable sensus Catholicus that understands God’s own revulsion of false religions”:
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1. Saint Benedict of Nursia (543) highly praised by Pope Pius XII in “Fulgens Radiatur” :
“The man of God coming to that place broke the idol, overthrew the altar, burned the groves, and of the temple of Apollo made a chapel of St. Martin. Where the
profane altar had stood he built a chapel of St. John; and by continual preaching he converted many of the people thereabout”.
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2.Saint Boniface-“apostle to the German peoples” (754) at Geismar, near Fritzlar, cut down a gigantic oak, called the “Tree of Thor,” which the pagans of the whole country regarded with the deepest veneration, boasting: ” Mighty as the God of the Christians was, over the oak of Geismar He had no power”
“A vast crowd of pagans stood around, intently watching to see some dire misfortune overwhelm the desecrator of their shrine. But when the mighty tree fell to the ground under the strokes of the Bishop’s (Boniface’s) ax, they with one accord praised the God of the Christians and asked to be received among the number of His followers. Boniface baptized them, and out of the wood of the tree built a little oratory, which he dedicated to St. Peter. (Father John Laux, Church History, Benziger Bros. 1930, ) (TAN Book, 1980, p. 149.)
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3.Saint Francis Xavier (nearly a thousand years later) in the mid 1500’s “spent himself tirelessly in the baptizing of heathens and the utter destruction of everything to do with the false religions from which they were converted unconditionally to the Catholic Church.”
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St. Francis also wrote: “As to the numbers who become Christians, you may understand them from this, that it often happens to me to be hardly able to use my hands from the fatigue of baptizing: often in a single day I have baptized whole villages. Sometimes I have lost my voice and strength altogether with repeating again and again the Credo and the other forms.”
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St. Francis continued: “The fruit that is reaped by the baptism of infants, as well as by the instruction of children and others, is quite incredible… They show an ardent
love for the Divine law, and an extraordinary zeal for learning our holy religion and imparting it to others. Their hatred for idolatry is marvellous. They get into
feuds with the heathen about it, and whenever their own parents practise it, they reproach them and come off to tell me at once. Whenever I hear of any act of
idolatrous worship, I go to the place with a large band of these children, who very soon load the devil with a greater amount of insult and abuse than he has lately
received of honor and worship from their parents, relations, and acquaintances. The children run at the idols, upset them, dash them down, break them to pieces, spit on them, trample on them, kick them about, and in short heap on them every possible outrage. (St. Francis Xavier: Letter from India, to the Society of Jesus at Rome, 1543.)
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Saint Francis explained that the Brahmins in India were people of malice and cunning, not people to be admired: [who deluded the ignorant into supplying
all their daily needs and wants, on the pretext the gods were using them].
” Those who belong to these parts are very indignant with me for exposing their tricks.. If it were not for the opposition of the Brahmins, we should have them all
embracing the religion of Jesus Christ. (St. Francis Xavier: Letter from India, to the Society of Jesus at Rome, 1543.)
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Finally, Saint Francis wrote to Saint Ignatius of Loyola in 1549 about the effects of paganism on the character of the Indian people:” the whole race of the Indians, as far as I have been able to see, is very barbarous; and it does not like to listen to anything that is not agreeable to its own manners and customs… Most of the Indians are of vicious disposition, and are adverse to virtue. Their instability, levity, and inconstancy of mind are incredible; they have hardly any honesty, so inveterate are their habits of sin and cheating. We have hard work here, both in keeping the Christians up to the mark and in converting the heathen. [he asks for prayers] You know very well what a hard business it is to teach people who neither have any knowledge of God nor follow reason, but think it a strange and intolerable thing to be told to give up their habits of sin, which have now gained all the force of nature by long possession. Saint Francis Xavier, Letter on the Missions, to St. Ignatius de Loyola, 1549.)
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These examples represent the true work of the Church for the salvation of souls as mandated by Christ our King, without any sugar-coating.
What a contrast to the false ecumenism still spreading today, demanding “peaceful coexistence” in the name of Christ, rather than conversion to the Truth at the price of bearing the hatred of the world. False ecumenism is all about the here and now, rather than what happens to souls in eternity, in the hereafter.
Thanks for those quotes from St Francis Xavier. The difference is like black and white.
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To be honest, the more I learn about Cardinal/Fr Ratzinger, the more I think he is akin to Jorge Bergoglio. In some respects, I believe that Cardinal Ratzinger is even worse because he cloaks his heresies under a mantle of “conservatism”. And, I believe, Ratzinger’s vastly superior mind allows his heresies to be more intellectually developed than Bergoglio’s – which make them all the more dangerous.
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Jorge Bergoglio doesn’t fool anyone (who has the faith) that still is in possession of half a functioning brain.
As Fr Chazal (SSPX-MC) said a couple years back after the election of Bergoglio, Ratzinger is like a bottle of wine with modernist poison inside, but with a nice traditional/conservative label on it. Bergoglio, in contrast, has both modernist poison in his bottle and a label that clearly says “modernism”.
Please, please, dear friends in Christ, pray for the suffering remnant here in Ireland, and the majority who have succumbed to the evil demands of a tyrannical regime – with the collusion through scandalous commission and omission of our bishops and priests. Some of the things said by some of the bishops (such as Diarmuid Martin and a Bishop McKeown) are so evil in content, and their dishonest Weasly underhanded means of attacking Holy God, his holy laws, the objective moral truth of marriage, sex, parenthood and depraved mortal sin so abhorrent that I cannot repeat here (can be found online). Ireland was chosen by the NWO globalists as a prime target to destroy the Faith, and thus objective morality – and marriage, the family, purity, childhood – by powerful financial, political and other means, and the Irish puppet leaders capitulated, and did their master’s bidding, unleashing all forces to demand the weak-willed and darkened-intellect populace do as commanded and vote for the most egregious far reaching evil.
With objective truth now explicitly refuted as false, and objective falsehood and evil explicitly upheld in Our Constitution, we are now officially under a regime of vicious tyranny. Tyranny is where objective truth is rejected, and they gestate imposes its own arbitrary version of the truth, and those who refuse to comply with the evil are systematically persecuted. All with the apparent blessing of the majority of bishops and priests.
The persecution of the Church and those who uphold the Natural Law, will I think be more aimed at and suffered by the abandoned lay flock, while many prelates collude with the direct persecutors. We see all over the world how people are being persecuted and martyred whilst many of the leaders in the Church collude with the persecutors.
Lord, help us in our anguish!!
Dear Lynda,
We’ll not stop praying. We’d think about moving to a Catholic country if there were one, but in this case, we’re all pretty in the same predicament, with rejection of the laws of God having gained majority rule in democracies across the globe. They’re making a fuss over Ireland being the first “country” to vote this way, but here in America most of our states had already accepted this atrocity. Our Lady truly gave us the key to reversing all of this with conversion. Prayer and daily sacrifices, while we continue to persevere in denouncing these evils–no matter the cost. Courage. God has won the victory. Our hope is that our loved ones who have gone astray will be part of the coming miracle that brings conversion and re-conversion.
God bless you with unfailing hope for all souls.
You’re very welcome, and we agree. The contrast is very glaring. It’s gotten to the point now, where false ecumenists don’t even pretend to to have any intention of bringing people into the One True Faith the council declared we still treasure.
– Lagging behind in getting online, it took us many years to come to realize the weird mixture of beliefs of Pope Benedict, for all the reasons you state. In contrast, it took only minutes on the internet once the name of Bergoglio was announced in Rome, to find a history in Argentina of a modernist zealot, railing against his own priests in public, for upholding Church laws regarding not giving Baptism to those who would not provide a Catholic upbringing; encouraging concubines to receive Communion without separating; who was beloved by the Protestants and non-Christian friends who rejoiced at his election, seeing it as a certain sign that the Catholic church would now be “changed forever” and “find it’s true vocation”.
— This was also Louie’s point regarding the TLM promoting false ecumenist under current discussion. Wolves in partial sheeps’ clothing, hungry to devour those who would stop their former “progress”.
-We aren’t about to capitulate. 🙂 🙂
Don’t forget the “Orthodox” of the East and the Deists, and Agnostics, and even atheists! All are welcome!
An Excellent post Mr. Verrecchio!
Lord Have Mercy!
Thank you! We need support of our sisters and brothers in Christ. Especially as most of our bishops and priests have become God’s enemies, our enemies – and the way to damnation for other souls.
Don’t lose heart. Carry on! Carry on with that holy stubbornness which in spiritual terms is called perseverance
St Josemaria Escriva
The long and the short of it is that ecumenists have no ‘right’ according to the ‘rights’ of religious liberty they worship, not to invite satanists into their frankenchurch.
Commiserations. One can only conclude that God is permitting the ground to be laid for a new generation of Irish saints (out of the remnant).
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St Patrick, St Columba, St Brigit, intercede.
Baptism is called the ‘seed of glory’, in that it is the seed of the potential for the soul’s salvation to the Glory of God Almighty. This seed is being destroyed by the Novus Ordo ‘saints’ and ‘popes’ and ‘shepherds’ who are unmistakably the birds of the air, scorching sun and thorns, etc.
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Mk 4: Hear ye: Behold, the sower went out to sow. And whilst he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the birds of the air came and ate it up. And other some fell upon stony ground, where it had not much earth; and it shot up immediately, because it had no depth of earth. And when the sun was risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. And some fell upon good ground; and brought forth fruit that grew up, and increased and yielded, one thirty, another sixty, and another a hundred. And he said: He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Tauran says: “The same groups, they are against ecumenism, against interreligious dialogue, against the religious freedom declaration. And I think that they are minorities”.
Instead of throwing out the charge of “minority” – can Tauran demonstrate that he is in the Catholic Church at all? On this subject the Catholic Encyclopedia reads as follows:
“Apostolicity is the mark by which the Church of today is recognized as identical with the Church founded by Jesus Christ upon the Apostles…. Apostolicity of [A] doctrine and [B] mission is necessary.”
Note the conjunction. It is not enough merely to demonstrate, if one can, that Bergoglio was legitimately elected (proposition B). On Apostolicity of doctrine (proposition A), the Encyclopedia states:
“Apostolicity of doctrine requires that the deposit of faith committed to the Apostles shall remain unchanged. Since the Church is infallible in its teaching, it follows that if the Church of Christ still exists it must be teaching His doctrine“.
Does the Church of Christ still exist in the Vatican? Is Bergoglio teaching His doctrine to “all nations” (Matthew 28:19)? Brazil and Ireland know the answer to that.
My mistake – for “Tauran” my comment above should read “Koch”.
Now what?
http://www.novusordowatch.org/now-what.htm
Body
Blood
Soul
Divinity
That is why I still attend….
I’d be interested to know what sort of Mass you attend, EM – I guess it’s Novus Ordo? If so, is there an attempt to make it reverent worship or is it abuse ridden? Also would be interested to know whether the Parish council permit orthodoxy or fight against it, etc.?
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The realisation of the protestantisation of so many Catholic parishes, and the impostition of a ‘banal on the spot product/mass’ (to quote Cardinal Ratzinger) that, in its minutiae, rejects the Real Presence is why so many Tradtional Catholics cannot (it’s not really a matter of do not) assist.
If the sacrament was valid, so would I! 🙂
I attend early morning(0800) at the Cathedral… Usually relics on the alter on feast days and reverential… about 120-150 people
Then Wednesday and Friday evenings after work at 19:30 at a large Parish Church of the Good Shepherd … Capacity 800… At those evening Masses about 20, with one Friday per month followed by Eucharistic Adoration till 23:00 in the Lady Chapel
Those are all Novus Ordo and indeed reverential
Other occasions , less so…
The great value in reflecting on comments and links on this and other sites is to help mentally separate the wheat from the chaff…
I now take great care to listen and evaluate homilies in light of traditional Catholicism, and ensure only genuine Catholic material is presented at our weekly Faith formation, which I help organise
Dialogue to learn about these infidel sects?! If I want to learn about these groups, I’ll read a good Catholic book first, then maybe some literature put out by the group, if I even think that’s necessary. These sectarians have already made up their minds they’re going to stay faithful to their Anti-Christian, Anti-God faiths, so it’s a waste of time to dialogue with them. What they need is the Gospel preached to them.
Dear Linda and IF,
I sure hope Robert Sungenis did not book his plane ticket to leave the ‘Good Old Star Spangled Heresy’ for the ‘Good Old Ireland’!
Dear Anastasia,
Same here. Statistically Poland seems the current best bet for highest number of practicing Catholics. Their Bishops are resisting the Synodal revolution, too.
Dear Peter,
It is, so go.
You can still watch the TLM on T.V. later.
🙂 🙂
Dear Indignus,
I don’t watch – I virtually assist. I genuflect to the tabernacle when I switch on and before I switch off. I kneel, sit, or stand at the appropriate times. I follow in my Missal and say all the responses out loud. Under the circumstances, it’s practically as good as being there. 🙂 🙂
Thank you, Ever Mindful and Salvemur. Traumatised. Your personal spiritual support is very consoling and encouraging. Praying for perseverance and non-compliance in spite of persecution.
With great shame, I think Ireland is much worse than the U.S. , generally. There is still more freedom to speak the truth, in most parts of America. That has been lost under an oppressive regime in Ireland, which controls government, politics, Media and academia, and business and most employment and professional positions. Although I would love to have more true acatholics come to Ireland, I would warn them against it for their own sakes, especially if they had young children. If no family vulnerable to state abduction and abuse, and willing to suffer for the Faith, for God, ones own and other souls, I’d say, please come!! And if a brave priest, prepared to resist evil restrictions by bishops on duty to minister to starved souls – please come!!!
Polish friends of mine were voting in Ireland today – for the Polish presidential election.
Not in the dioceses in Ireland . . .
Dear Indignus,
I have been thinking of you resisting from within and me from without all night. I tried from within. When I had my Damascus experience the first thing I did was to try to get the Tabernacle removed from its hiding place around the corner and restored to the altar. When this failed, I tried to have it bolted to the wall behind the altar in the most prominent position in the church, where it should be. No luck. I started kneeling for communion. Week in, month out, I was the only kneeler in the joint. One day a “minister of the eucharist” pretended he thought I was praying and skipped me for communion. I kept kneeling. Eventually, he and I were alone at the front of the church and he made to return to the altar. I grabbed his elbow very firmly as he passed and let him see my Irish eye. (I have two – one is English and the other is Irish.) Well I fixed him with the Irish one and he gave me communion – sort of a private ceremony before the congregation. Egit! What I’m trying to say is been there, done that. I achieved nothing and I tried hard. Then it struck me – you can’t beat them by joining them. You can’t solve the problem by being part of it.
By way of example, let’s say the NO is the Nazi Party. We know the Nazis are evil, but instead of joining the Resistance, us good Nazis decide to stay in the Party and reform it from within. So we sew the Nazi emblem on our brown shirts, attend the Party rallies and give Hitler (Francis) the Nazi salute (Bugnini una cum mass.) Then when the allies victoriously enter our town and start talking war crimes, we shout “no! no! we weren’t real Nazis! We only joined them because we were trying to reform them from within! Please understand! We were of their company it is true, but we share not in their guilt!” Then the conquering General might say, “but what part think you had I with belial? Hmm! That’s when I hot footed it out of there and joined the Resistance. 🙂 🙂
Dear Lynda,
Don’t for a minute think there are no real Irish Priests left in Ireland. They are there and things are steadily “getting their goat”. It’s very unwise to push an Irishman too far and they will come charging out with their cassocks lifted in one hand and brandishing their excaliburs (leather straps) in the other. One real Irish Priest is worth a legion of nancies!
Dear Lynda,
S.Armaticus over at Deus Ex Machina blog has been following the Polish election closely. His last comment said it looks promising -something like 54%/good guy 46% genderist at this point, and his next post should center on that topic.
Dear Peter Lamb,
Thanks for your response- we respect your sincerity and hope you didn’t get the impression you are being judged by us. We’ve often taken your remarks as good-natured, friendly chidings between people who know they have major differences about some serious issues-and we responded that way as well. (It’s sometimes hard to tell in comment boxes–so, just so you know)
🙂 🙂
As to your efforts, they seemed zealous, but seem to have been met with modernist hypocrisy which might indicate a need to look elsewhere, if there’s another parish in the area. Those issues–kneeling for Communion, and where the Tabernacle is, etc–are all important ones, but to us remain secondary to the actual reception of the Eucharist and other Sacraments. So was it later on that you came to believe the Sacraments were invalid?
That makes all the rest into moot points, really.
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It’s also where our minds won’t meet with yours.
We see it as God is still in charge of His Church, and some modernists have taken over many positions of authority in it, (as did the Arians). As we see it, it’s our job to pray and continue to participate in the Mass and Sacraments till God get’s rid of the wolves-which He is sure to do, because it’s HIS Church. 🙂 🙂
It appears you have given it a good deal of effort, and encountered the modernist hypocrisy which claims to be all about respecting individual preferences, UNLESS they happen to align with Tradition, in which case the response is like ice water. We sympathize greatly.
Was that the only parish in your area, and have you looked around to find a pastor (recently) who actually respects such a love as you have for the Church, and is even willing to talk things over with people who appreciate Tradition? All it takes is one.
__
Dear Peter,
Sorry that last paragraph was a repeat. Bad edit. 🙂 🙂
“There is indeed opposition to Nostra Aetate, Unitatis Redintegratio, and Dignitatis Humanae among Catholics That would include people like me, most of the readers of this space, and the entire SSPX. This opposition is “in the Catholic Church;” i.e., one need not accept these horrendous documents, one of which even goes so far as to misappropriate Sacred Scripture, in order to remain in the Church.”
“The SSPX does not reject Vatican II in its entirety: on the contrary, Bishop Fellay has stated that the society accepts 95% of its teachings.”
http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/recognizing-sspx-questioning-vatican-ii-2380
Supporting 95% of “these horrendous documents” doesn’t sound like “the entire SSPX” especially under Bishop Fellay is opposing VCII as strenuously as you seem to indicate.
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/truth-about-the-sspx-mc-similar-groups/#.VWJr009VhBc
What is more important to you (and the SSPX) “being inside” an organization that is teaching error and leading souls to hell (the CHURCH – the SPOTLESS BRIDE OF CHRIST w/out spot or wrinkle CANNOT do that — and stop besmirching HER!) or following Jesus Christ? You seem to want to deal w/this on an intellectual level, but don’t seem to realize that you may be judged on the company you keep–will Godj judge that you were more loyal and concerned about the feelings of false Bergoglio, Koch and Lori or about Jesus Christ your supposed King? What do you think of a Nazi who disagreed w/Hitler but stayed in the party and tried to work for change from the inside (vs. those who joined the Resistance groups)? What did God do to EVERYBODY in Sodom (except for three people who left the city), to the whole world (except for the eight who followed instructions and built an ark for 100 years (how many think he only told Noah to build an ark?)) to all the Jews who stayed in Jerusalem (and didn’t follow Jesus Christ)? “If anyone causes one of these little ones–those who believe in me–to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” (what about those who said bergoglio is leading people to hell, but he is the vicar of Christ on earth?) Jesus also said that a house divided against itself cannot stand. St. Paul said “I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema… who hath hindered you, that you should not obey the truth? This persuasion is not from him that calleth you. A little leaven corrupteth the whole lump.” You write about the false gospel being preached, but something is missing and that’s the outrage, the shock, the being scandalized and the ability to take action (in case you didn’t know
“The Godfather” was a murdering thief who terrorized small businesses and neighborhoods, R movies are “restricted” due to sex and violence that endanger souls). If you think the Word of God is a joke: Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof. [He is talking about YOUR (corrupt) house!]
Your comment reminds me of the Cardinal’s comment that precipitated Louie’s blog: “Cardinal: Christians, Muslims ‘still don’t know each other well enough'”
After 50 years, w/divorce, contraception, abortion, pornography, sodomy, gay marriage, assisted suicide, euthanasia, drugs, violence and debt destroying our society — glad you’ve finally started listening to and evaluating homilies “in light of traditional Catholicism” — but where did you learn that (is it what you remember from grade school 50 years ago?)? After 50 years of not paying attention (surely there was some intervening, continuing repentance) now suddenly you are forming others in the faith (did lay (lapsed Catholics) people do that in genuine catholicism?) and ensuring “only genuine Catholic material” is presented to them — how are you doing that w/in the Novus Ordo? What constitutes genuine? Are you the pope now and all the people have to do is follow you (not their priest, bishop or pope) for the real Catholic deal? Isn’t there a (fairy) priest or a (feminist) lay woman helping you organize these faith formation courses who vet the material presented? Surely you do a little compromising with genuine Catholic material — like present the new mass, the new (non) confession (and other non-sacraments like (sodomy, divorce and re) marriage (with a period of fornication definitely required before), no “state of grace” necessary communion in the hand, no abstaining on Fridays (or other acts of penance), no daily recitation of the rosary or worship of Mary or the saints, immodest dress and contraception if you feel like it etc. (or do you feel that’s all part of genuine Catholicism?)
Now that you are listening and evaluating “in light of traditional Catholicism”, hope it doesn’t take another 50 years for you to get to know the Novus Ordo well enough to make a decision about your own salvation (and any family you may be responsible for) especially when you already feel qualified to form others in the (genuine) Faith.
TWN, The Church of Nice is wrong, being nice is right. There’s a difference.
From the light of Tradition, Pius IX tells us that ‘he who eats of the lamb outside [of the Holy Roman Church] has no part with God.’ (Amantissimus, 1862)
–
An illegitimate mass, while still being valid, ‘has no part with God’. The SSPX have concluded the illegitimacy of the New Mass as have others:
–
http://sspx.org/en/new-mass-legit
–
Is it important to remember that the Novus Ordo and its Rites are a product of VII. They are not a product of the Catholic Church.
The idea of the invalidity of the Novus Ordo mass (while it was invalid in and of itself in its pre-Benedict English translation) rests on the invalidity of ordinations in the Novus Ordo.
PS. at least that’s my understanding as to why it is still doubtful now that the English translation has been changed. However, the protestant characture of it, because it works against the true nature of the Catholic Mass, is sometimes deemed reason enough to consider it invalid.
–
http://www.traditionalmass.org/versus/
Thank you for your reflection…I will pray to grow in wisdom
Dear Indignus,
Our feelings are mutual. I have the greatest respect and affection for you. You have hit the nail on the head – the validity of the NO sacraments is the crux of the matter. That is the heart and soul of it all.
Salvamur has posted two good links regarding the new mass below and there are others that go into the Sacramental Theology proving the invalidity of the NO mass and sacraments in much greater detail. Pope Pius XII defined the forms of the Sacraments. Then Paul VI altered many of them.
Lets start at the beginning:
Permanent Instruction of Alta Vendita _ masonic infiltration of the Church (Bella Dodd) _ John XXIII (marxist, mason – excommunicated)_ Paul VI (marxist, mason, sodomite, heretic, – excommunicated) – legally elected, but not Pope formaliter _ no Papal authority (Cum Ex Apostolatus) _ altered sacramental forms and liturgy _ invalid sacraments and liturgy = eventually no valid bishops = no valid priests = no valid mass = satantic victory over Church of Christ = new world order = gold, silver, power for judeo-masons = enslavement of humanity _ Heil Satan!
Yes, as my concern and disillusionment increased, I started reading. After about two years I was convinced, without any qualms, that sedevacantism was the only Catholic answer to the situation. I then wrote an open letter to my archbishop announcing my formal departure from the NO sect and denouncing it. I sent the letter to all the parishes in my city. Then all my NO friends departed shouting anathema! anathema! heretic! heretic! unclean! unclean!
I know how much it hurts seeing our beloved churches invaded by the usurpers, but that’s the way it is, but only for now. One day Our Lady will see these fellas right and we will get our churches back. WE are the Catholic Church. These other fellas are NO Sectarians. They have left the Church – not us!
PS There are only Catholics and non-catholics and only Catholic and non-catholic parishes. There are not different kinds, or degrees of Catholic parishes. 🙂 🙂
Dear Ever mindful,
You are a very good and holy Catholic. 🙂
Dear Salvemur,
These claims we hear repeatedly–that the Novus Ordo is something outside the Catholic Church, and that ordinations following Vatican II are invalid– are the two ideas that stand out as major stumbling blocks today, between those like yourself who have come to believe those things, and people like us who find these ideas ultimately incredible.
__
We still spend a lot of time reading -as we have for about two years now- with the intention of coming to understand the points of view that have led to all the divisions which in turn led to the creation of recognizable groups which oppose one another’s views–such as the SSPX, and Sede Vacantists.
Whenever we get down to the “brass tacks” of these arguments, they seem based on claims and ideas that initially hit us as “grasping at straws” to prove things that are not provable, and secondly don’t stand up to the many refutations available.
___
We are left with the distinct impression that the intention to reject all that has come into being since Vatican II, overwhelms the objectivity of those holding these positions, and becomes more important than the Truth. We have no wish to denigrate the intelligence, intentions or sincerity of all the people belonging to these groups. We continue to read and study their publications, but keep coming to these same conclusions.
–The bottom line is that to us it seems the licit, valid, legitimate Novus Ordo Mass, is being condemned as something evil and harmful to the Faith, even though our 50 years of attending and participating fully in it, has enriched our spiritual lives in countless ways , and increased our love for God, the Scriptures, Church, Eucharist, the Sacraments and all that is connected with them, to the point where they are the central focus of every day of our lives.
__
And while we are by no means ignorant or blind to the invasion of modernism into the Church, or it’s effects on souls, we are more than able to distinguish between the rite of the Mass itself–as good and beneficial, and the errors and abuses often promoted—just as Cardinal Burke clearly distinguished those differences while still asserting clearly that the N.O. and TLM are the same rite.
___
So we keep open minds, continue to read and discuss these issues, but at this point conclude that you are wrong, and see these sede declarations as harmful to the souls you would have abandon the Mass and Sacraments the Church still provides for them—that God still provides for them, during this time of crisis.
Dear Peter,
Please see the response we put in to Salvemur (just below Ever mindful’s comment about her Mass attendance) as it addresses the issues you raise here as well, giving our overall view after much research.
God bless us all.
—
P.S. UPDATE
Today’s news reports that the Roman Catholic Conservative, Mr. Duda has won the Polish Presidential election.
God help us all.
Dear Indignus,
I know you don’t read, or listen to the links I send you. You didn’t listen to the sermon on cutting with the NO, or read Henry Patrick Omlor’s treatise on the NO sacraments did you? Cummon admit it. Yes, or no? 🙂 🙂
The sspx is correct in the 90 some odd percent of V2 is not explicit heresy. The problem is that even that which is not heretical is presented in the language of the New Theology. Therein lies the danger, as laid out by Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis 14, 15 and 16:
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12HUMAN.HTM
Dear Peter,
You wrote:
“I know you don’t read or listen to the links I send you.”
Wrong again. (But another very good example of sede false statements based on false presumption) 🙂 🙂
___
In fact, the Omlor treatise was one we found that spent a good deal of time on what seems to us “nit picking” (no insult intended) and drawing conclusions from personal opinions which were then stated as if facts- and going on to claim things had been proven -as if beyond a shadow of a doubt, which in fact were not.
___
We’ve long been observers of propaganda techniques, in studying communism and socialism in history and in our media. [We taught our children critical thinking, by having them pick false and misleading statements out of the daily news reports and debunk them by comparing them to facts and Catholic teachings, including Papal encyclicals.
—We see many of these misleading techniques used in today’s debates and online arguments, especially (but not exclusively) among sedevacantists who often seem to think of themselves as exceptionally qualified to speak for God and the “True” Church as if they are the real magisterium. We find it strikingly similar to the speeches of protestant leaders like Wycliffe, Calvin and Luther.
___
Over the years we’ve developed gut-reactions to these things, that set off immediate alarm bells when listening to arguments. We take those seriously, and try to delve further into the matters, to determine where the Truth is to be found. The problem with many of the current arguments, as we’ve noted before, is that both sides end up quoting the same Saints and Church Fathers and Councils, and claiming differing meanings of their words.
That creates an impasse where people end up just choosing sides–based on which leaders they trust the most.
___
So we look for good Cardinals and Bishops to listen to–a rarity in the public forums today, while we continue to listen and study the arguments–but with less urgency and intensity than before. We’d rather spend what time we have, on researching the Teachings of the Church, analyzing the current developments, and warning people of false teachings that are easily recognizable. So we do pick and choose which sede and SSPX links we delve into these days, and don’t promise to read or listen to every one–by any means.
—-
We suggest you take a look at the way you state things,
as you did above. Such language that states opinion AS fact, is what we discussed as the problem above.
-“I KNOW you don’t read or listen to? How is that possible without being God? Such statements diminish minish your overall credibility-which isn’t such a bad thing for now, while you still embrace errors and stay home on Sundays. 🙂 🙂
In my opinion Indignus (s) has come through the last 50 years into Truth, not BECAUSE of attendance at the NO mass, but IN SPITE of it. Our Dear Lord has a plan for them and has pulled them out of error into Truth.
–
I think it’s like saying one’s protestant sect saves one. Instead it’s Jesus Christ who saves in spite of the sect.
–
I’ve recently heard that quite a good NO priest (who says the Latin Mass at my parish when our FSSP pastor is on vacation) is moving to a NO parish a 4-minute walk from my home. I had the fleeting thought that I could go to his mass every day and not have to drive 30 minutes to the Latin Mass.
–
But I realized that even though I know this good priest means well he will still have ‘altar girls’ and women distributing Holy Communion and the whole mess. And though I know he is aware of the abuses ‘the women in the parish’ push, he will do nothing. His mantra is ‘just radiate holiness, and all the bad stuff will go away.’ Well, it doesn’t.
–
So no go.
Dear Indignus,
Bear in mind the “know” was said with a smile and accompanied by two question marks. 🙂 Maybe I was half right because there is no reference to the sermon? 🙂
You persist in adherence to NO, but won’t even listen to a sermon by a Bishop on the subject? That’s a pity, because I would have valued your opinion on it.
We are all good Catholics trying to maintain a straight course on a road made crooked, rugged, in some places obscured and salted with minefields. That’s why we confer, consult, discuss and debate on sites like this. I really don’t think anybody is interested in propagandising anybody else.
You wrote:
“In fact, the Omlor treatise was one we found that [sic] spent a good deal of time on what seems to us “nit picking” … and drawing conclusions from personal opinions which were then stated as if facts- and going on to claim things had been proven -as if beyond a shadow of a doubt, which in fact were not.”
Now I would be very interested to know which part/s you consider nitpicking, which are the personal opinions, what the false conclusions are and where they are stated as facts. Your insight might be of great benefit to me and surely that is the whole point of debate?
I don’t think your statement that “… sedevacantists … often seem to think of themselves as exceptionally qualified to speak for God and the “True” Church as if they are the real magisterium…” is true. Sedevacantists are just Catholics being faithful to The Catholic Faith and Magisterium as promulgated from Pentecost until 1958 and trying not to deflect by one iota from it. Can you point to a single tenet of the sedevacantist assessment of the current situation which is heretical, or is in conflict with the Magisterium, or Faith, taught up to 1958? If you can, please do so, for my benefit. Name me one sedevacantist who has claimed he speaks for God?
The Catholic Faith is absolute and is the Truth. It is documented in detail. Gut feelings are never needed for guidance.
Truth is absolute, never relative. Truth never leads to an impasse. Truths never conflict. Truth only conflicts with error.
“We’d rather spend … time … on researching the Teachings of the Church, analyzing the current developments, and warning people of false teachings …”
Be careful not to get Magisterial! 🙂
“So we do pick and choose which sede and SSPX links we delve into …” How do you do that without reading them? The more one reads, the better one can warn others of false teachings – surely?
“Such statements diminish minish [sic] your overall credibility-which isn’t such a bad thing for now, while you still embrace errors …” I embrace error. Your opinion as a statement of fact? Surely not! 🙂 🙂
OK, God bless! I’m off to watch “Survivor”.
Dear TWN,
Below is a link to our current and previous Faith Formation timetable…
http://www.goodshepherd-arnold.org.uk/pdf/faith-formation-mar15-2.pdf
Date: 5 March 2015 – 23 April 2015 DVD “Hail, Holy Queen” by Scott Hahn.
Date: 27 Nov 2014 – 26 Feb 2015 DVD Pillar II Catechism Of Catholic Church by Sean Innerst.
Date: 14 August 2014 – 13 Nov 2014 DVD Pillar 1: Catechism Of The Catholic Church by Sean Innerst.
Date: 24 July 2014 – 7 August 2014 DVD “The Gospels” by Lavinia Spirito
Date: 19 June 2014- 10 July 2014 “Theology Of The Body” DVD presentation by Christopher West. A must for everyone!
Date: 17 July 2014 DVD presentation- “The Journey Home of St Paul” interviewed by Marcus Grodi.
Date: 24 April 2014-12 June 2014 “Walking Towards Eternity” DVD presentations by Jeff Cavins
Date: 6 March 2014- 10 April 2014 DVD “Mission Of Truth” by Fr William Cassey.
Date: 9 January 2014 (8 weeks) DVD “Gospel Of Life versus the Culture of Death” by Fr Wade Menezes.
Date: 21 November 2013 (for 5 weeks) DVD presentations which included the following topics: “Reflections on The Mass” , “Keys of the Kingdom”, “Confession” and “All generations shall Call Me Blessed”
Date: 24 October 2014 (3 weeks) DVD talks by Lavinia Spirito on following topics “Saints like us” “Purgatory” & ” Angels, heavenly Witnesses”
Date: 17 October 2013 (1 week) “Catholicism, The New Evangelization” DVD by Fr Robert Barron
Date: 15 August 2013 (For 7 weeks) DVD “Eucharistic Journey” with Thomas Aquinas by Sr Joan Noreen.
Date: 18 July 2013 (for 5 weeks) DVD “Eucharistic Journey with Pope John Paul II” By Sr Joan Noreen
Date: 14 February 2013 (for 6 weeks) DVD “Spiritual Revival lenten Program” by Fr William Casey
“Prayer”, The Real Presence”, “The Catholic Church”, “Confession”, “Chastity”, “Holy Mary”
Date: 4 October 2012 (for 7 weeks) DVD “The Fulfullment of All Desire” by Ralph Martin
Thank you,kind sir for those kind words,which only apply for the short duration as I leave the confessional..
Link to St Teresa of Avila programme..
http://www.goodshepherd-arnold.org.uk/faith-formation-current.php
Dear Barbara,
Your opinion of us, expressed above, is in need of some revising in the interest of truth, if you believe as you wrote, that we were “pulled out of error into Truth” and that that happened “in spite of” the N.O. rather than because of it.
___
On the contrary– We were both “cradle” Catholics during the reign of Pius XII, Baptized into the truth, raised in families that supported practicing and learning the Faith at home and in schools, which helped us come to personally accept, believe, and practice it all our lives so far–even after some of them fell away.
The era of our grade-school attendance included the blessing of dedicated orders of habit-wearing, faithful nuns and priests.
-It was holding on to those strongly instilled beliefs throughout our teen and young-adult years-especially through college experiences infected with modernist teachers, that was greatly helped by the blessing of daily Mass in a language we could easily understand which deepened and preserved the Faith in each of us.
By the time we met, it was firmly planted and central to each of our lives.
-No doubt that was due to the Graces of God, but for you to dismiss the N.O. as a detriment, rather than the enormous SOURCE of those Graces it was and remains, is a great error. In addition to the usual prayers, the Word of God and the Real Presence in the Eucharist, so many of the psalms were put to music and used as responsorial songs which the congregations both hear and sing, they are now entrenched on our minds for life, and come to mind readily during our workdays, with the least little reminder. Reading the Morning Liturgy of Hours, we simply see the start of one, and can sing the remainder from memory–another great blessing from the N.O.
__
[There are certainly bad songs in the published Church collections, but that’s another area in which the Bishops’ and pastors’ duties must be done properly–and once again, not a “fault” of the rite or Mass itself.] Many who criticize the N.O. here, speak about abuses which pastors promote or allow along with it–such as those you mentioned — communion in the hand (which we reject) and altar girls, (which many in the Hierarchy are beginning to realize has badly hurt the process of natural attraction of boys to the priesthood) as well as talking before and after Mass. Those need to be eliminated, we agree, and good Catholics need to keep protesting them till they are.
___
But as to the Mass and rite itself, we wonder why it is so inconceivable to reasonable persons, that a form of the Mass other than the TLM could be of great benefit to souls, especially since Our Lord did not institute the TLM, and neither said the Mass in Latin nor perfomed it with all of the parts that developed over the next 500 years after His 33 visible years here. Neither did the early Church, whose weekly gatherings, (with readings done in the vernacular), -if you read what descriptions are available- may have included people eating their meals during them, as at one point it was announced that those should be eaten at home before coming.
___
We’ve not been particular promoters of the N.O., but have not acquired the negative views of it that we frequently read here, because we don’t falsely join it together with the abuses modernists add on to it. It is not a Protestant service, regardless of the intentions of some of its designers. Perhaps Our Lord saw to that.
There is no protestant theology or philosophy being transmitted by it to us, only the same lessons as those in the TLM, and the same Lord in the Eucharist.
Before the Agnus Dei, the TLM presider even wishes us the same Peace of Christ as the N.O.’s much criticized “kiss of peace”, saying: “Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum”
So your comparing it to someone claiming to be saved by their Protestant sect, when its really Jesus who does the saving, seems wrong to us on several levels, because we DO receive the same Lord and Graces at the N.O. that we receive at the TLM, and protestants receive neither.
___
You say you reject going to Mass locally because you are disturbed by the altar girls and female extraordinary minister etc. We understand that, and are also bothered by those things at times, first as distractions and because of the rule-breaking (back when it all first began), and even more so now having read and learned more about the meaning and importance of the priestly ministry, including the consecration of hands blessed to touch Our Lord.
But those concerns must remain secondary to the importance of individual’s reception of the Sacraments, and many people have no alternative just 30 minutes from home as you say you are blessed to have. They should not have to listen to the N.O. being literally trashed along with all the abuses that deserve that treatment, because it brings them Our Lord, Himself. When we stand before Him in judgment some day, we believe He will be most concerned with the ways in which our lives encouraged others to come to Him in the Eucharist, since He has granted us the very great privilege of appreciating it as we do.
God Bless us all.
Amen.
Nil nisi Te,Domine.
Indignus, being that I’m no ligturgist, what I can say for certain is that the New Rites are not Roman (this is what all the liturgists say despite the ‘roman rite’ bit on the Novus Ordo missal (even Bugnini affirmed that the Roman Rite is discontinued in the Novus Ordo Mass. The New Rites are drawn from the East (ordinations) and the Protestants and Jews (the mass and the other sacraments)). This instant manufacturing of Rites has no place in the Catholic Church. The Novus Ordo Episcopal Rite isn’t even based on an Eastern ordination Rite. It is based on a formula to make an already ordained Bishop a Patriarch. All this has its desired end, that is to create a reasonable doubt concerning the validity of any of it. To me, it is simply prudent to forgo those areas of doubt and remain with certainty. Michael Coren has convinced himself that the Anglican schism is salvific, that it has valid rites, but this doesn’t make it so. The same criticisms coming from the Holy See that were directed against the Anglicans can be applied almost verbatim to the situation with Novus Ordo Rites.
–
Pope Leo XIII, Bull Apostolicae Curae, n. 30 (1896):
“Being fully cognizant of the necessary connection between faith and worship, between ‘the law of believing and the law of praying’, under a pretext of returning to the primitive form, they corrupted the Liturgical Order in many ways to suit the errors of the reformers. For this reason, in the whole Ordinal not only is there no clear mention of the sacrifice, of consecration, of the priesthood (sacerdotium), and of the power of consecrating and offering sacrifice but, as we have just stated, every trace of these things which had been in such prayers of the Catholic rite as they had not entirely rejected, was deliberately removed and struck out.”
Robert Barron who teaches it’s reasonable to believe hell is empty (contradicts Ralph Martin “Catholic Pentecostal”)? Scott Hahn who teaches the Holy Ghost is feminine? “You see, Dr. Hahn regards the Holy Spirit as feminine or female. We commented: “Now, Mary was female, and if the Holy Spirit is female or feminine, then Jesus had two mommies, and presto, ‘gay’ is good and so is ‘gay marriage.’ Dr. Hahn goes so far as to say the Holy Spirit is ‘bridal’ and that ‘Mary’s maternity is mystically one with that of…the Spirit.’ The imagery here is blatantly and scandalously lesbian.”
http://www.newoxfordreview.org/note.jsp?did=0105-notes-hahn
“Sean Innerst, theology department chair at Denver’s St. John Vianney Seminary, said he hopes to see “interesting and creative responses” to help those who are divorced or divorced and remarried and believe themselves to be outside of the Church. “They might be in a life situation which means they can’t receive Communion, but that doesn’t mean they can’t darken the door of the church,” he told CNA Nov. 5.
“It’s just inconsistent with the gospel for people to feel they’re excluded because they’re in a situation that’s tragic and complicated and they can’t currently sort out.”
“We need to have some pastoral responses to these situations where we don’t simply allow people to drift away because they’ve made serious mistakes, because the culture has led them in this direction”
You can look up these “genuine Catholics” for yourself, “ever mindful”. Seems to me you have been “empowered” to use your “lay priesthood” conferred on you by your (unnecessary) baptism to preach heresy by your local parish leaders — who probably tell you “we don’t agree w/all the changes either” (but they never specify what changes they don’t agree with). And you spout the same to all you are supposedly forming. When JPII was pope, the standard line was “the pope is faithful, but the bishops are bad.” However I saw the pics of JP (theology of the Christopher West bawdy) 2 on the internet and so can you. You are being gravely misled, and you are being used as a tool to mislead others — but only because of some type of (willful) blindness (sin) in you. Some things I forgot to mention in last post: When was last sermon on 4 last things preached at your church, i.e. last time heaven or hell (our eternal destinations) mentioned? When was last time sermon on Mary as model for us to imitate? When was last sermon on a saint previous to VCII? How can it ever be “reverent” to receive communion in the hand? Not on your knees? In state of mortal sin? Wearing immodest clothes? Only in attendance at one’s convenience? How can it be reverent to implicitly deny the sacrificial nature of the (holy) mass and Real presence? Now that everyone can see the pope is “bad”, the new line is “we don’t agree w/everything they’re doing either”. Whatever to keep as many as possible going to gehenna. There is only one thing to do and it is what the Bible says: don’t tolerate ONE mortal sin/ONE heretical statement. ONE heresy makes one NOT a Catholic. At all.