Let’s pick up our discussion of the Novus Ordo with one of the most important points raised in the previous post; namely, the suggestion often put forth by its defenders maintaining that the new Mass can neither be offensive to God, nor threaten to lead those who participate therein away from the Catholic faith, because:
The Church would never give such a rite to the faithful.
In weighing the merits of this noteworthy argument, the question that must be considered is this:
Was the Novus Ordo truly given to the faithful as a gift from Holy Mother Church, and as such deserving of all of the veneration that such origins demand, or was it laid upon the faithful as a burden by mere men of questionable integrity, and therefore subject to the serious scrutiny that may very well lead one to justifiably refrain from participating therein?
Let’s begin by considering how it is that one might come to distinguish between the two, first, as it pertains to the identifying marks that characterize that which comes from Our Holy Mother, the Church.
We can say with absolute confidence that Holy Mother Church, from generation to generation, always and everywhere passes down to her children that which she has received from her Founder and Head, in all integrity, with neither ambiguity nor compromise, much less offensiveness to God, nothing more and nothing less, in particular as it relates to Holy Mass – the Supreme Lex Orandi of the Church.
The Roman Pontiff, of course, plays an important role in safeguarding and facilitating that handing on of that which has been received, as do the bishops in union with him, but we’ll get to that in a moment.
With the identifying marks described above being what they are, anything that is given to the children of the Church that deviates from this high standard of impeccability and purity quite simply cannot be attributed to her with respect to its origins.
As we established in the previous post, there are aspects to the Novus Ordo that very clearly deviate from the unambiguous, uncompromising liturgical tradition of the Church such as it has been handed down throughout the centuries leading up to its introduction.
As such, the Novus Ordo cannot rightly be attributed to Holy Mother Church; i.e., it does not represent that which has been “received and approved” by her (cf Council of Trent, Session VII, Canon XIII), rather its origins must be assigned to mere men – ultimately in this case, Pope Paul VI.
At this, let’s consider the role of the Roman Pontiff as described by Pope Pius XII in Mediator Dei:
“The Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification.” (cf Mediator Dei 58)
Left unstated (perhaps because it is so well understood) is that every right enjoyed by man, even those articulated above with respect to the pope, exist only in relation to corresponding duties.
In the present case, the Supreme Pontiff has the solemn duty of passing along in all integrity that which has been handed down. The Mass is not his to craft according to his own desires, no matter how praiseworthy he believes them to be (e.g., placating heretics unto a false sense of unity).
Sure, the pope may modify certain aspects of liturgical practice, but he does not have the right to deviate from the Lex Orandi that has been given to him.
There is a stark and very obvious difference between the revisions made by Pius XII to the liturgy for Holy Week (which, prudent or not, did not have the effect of confirming heretics in their errors, much less did it lead to a loss of Catholic faith among the flock) and the wholesale fabrication of the new Mass under Paul VI.
Whether or not the former was derelict in his duty vis-à-vis Quo Primum is at the very least debatable, and in any case, of no bearing on the present discussion. The salient point is that one is hard pressed to deny that the latter, Paul VI, is patently guilty of having promulgated what is easily recognizable as a departure from the “received and approved” rite of Holy Mass that he was obligated to hand down.
Look, I realize that this is a bitter pill to swallow, especially for those who have received real blessings from Our Lord within the new Mass (as most of us have), but the simple fact of the matter is that what Cardinal Ratzinger so aptly described as an “on-the-spot product … a fabrication … as in a manufacturing process” is the exact opposite of that which comes from Holy Mother Church.
The Novus Ordo was forced upon the faithful, not as gift but as burden, shaking the Church to her very foundations. This bastard rite has been reeking devastation upon the faithful from the moment of its inception, and its origins are no more glorious than that “on-the-spot” gathering of “experts” known as the Consilium that was established in 1964 during what was without question one of the most disastrous pontificates the Church has ever endured!
So, what are we to do?
Are the faithful obligated, by precept, to participate in the Mass every Sunday and Holy Day – meaning, the Mass that comes from Holy Mother Church; the same that has been handed down throughout the ages and is utterly devoid of any trace of offense against God?
Absolutely. The precept is, after all, an invitation to enter into that which glorifies God and can only do us good.
Are the faithful obligated, by precept, to participate in the Mass every Sunday and Holy Day – meaning, the Mass that comes straight from the hands of an unprincipled pope; a rite that was fabricated in the 1960’s and is anything but devoid of offense against God?
Of course not, as this would render the precept an invitation to enter into that which can do us great harm.
It has been mentioned that nothing exists in the tradition of the Church that might inform the faithful as to how we might rightly behave in such circumstances as these.
There’s a reason for that.
Not only is the present liturgical crisis unprecedented; it would seem that even those Saints and Doctors of the Church who entertained the possibility of a reigning pope falling into heresy never imagined that the Roman Pontiff might one day force a fabricated rite like the Novus Ordo upon the children of the Church.
This is why so many good bishops acquiesced to the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, in spite of its “time bombs” as Michael Davies called them; they simply could not imagine that the pope would ever so neglect his duty as to unleash the tragedy that followed.
NB: In anticipation of the argument that Paul VI, in light of the Novus Ordo debacle, could not have been pope, as if the mere fact that the Holy Ghost allowed him to promulgate the bastard rite proves as much, I’ve taken the liberty of starting a thread on the FORUM where that debate can take place. For those interested, please do follow the link and have at it!
The comment section here, however, is for discussion on the points raised in this post about the Novus Ordo.
In conclusion, I would remind you that my purpose in these posts is not to counsel any individual person on how they should behave. There is an aspect to this highly unique crisis in the life of the Church that concerns, not only knowledge, but conscience.
I will, however, state without hesitation that each and every one of us has an obligation to learn our faith and to form our individual consciences well in the matter. That means delving deeply into the kinds of hard questions under discussion here in search of the truth. I very much appreciate everyone’s contribution.
May Christ our Light guide us along the way.
“There is an aspect to this highly unique crisis in the life of the Church that concerns, not only knowledge, but conscience.
I will, however, state without hesitation that each and every one of us has an obligation to learn our faith and to form our individual consciences well in the matter.”
I absolutely agree.
The first video below was linked in one of the comments from the previous thread by commenter “pigg0214”; I think it demonstrates such an astonishing change in Voris’ attitude towards the New Mass etc that it’s worth putting it up again for those who may have missed it:
The question is: how can a man change so radically his point of view? I would argue that either
a) Voris didn’t REALLY believe what he was saying in the 2010 video and hence quickly changed his mind years later or
b) Voris has been subjected to a constant process of brain-washing by the opus dei folks (they are pretty good at that) that has turned his former sensus catholics into mush.
c) Voris has been COMPLETELY bought over by Mr Terry (or whatever his name is), if I’m not mistaken the guy who bought and then leased over his Detroit studios.
I don’t think a) is really plausible: whenever someone speaks with conviction it is evident and shows through in the manner of speech, and to me Voris clearly shows that in the 2010 video.
I don’t think c) alone is plausible either because it would show a completely unscrupulous man with no real inner convictions, which I don’t think is the case with Voris, so I think the most likely explanation is a combination of b) (IMO the main factor) and to a lesser extent c).
A talk by FR GREGORY HESSE
Related to louie’s last 2 posts
New mass etc no matter where your opinion on the situation is i think this will help all who watch it. GOD BLESS
If Opus Dei brainwashed Michael Voris (who says he is not a member), why does he still publicly criticize bishops, which is something Opus Dei discourages?
You could not be more spot on about how it’s incumbent upon Catholics to learn their faith so they can know the truth. Sadly, most Catholics simply don’t care that much about their faith anymore to do so. As St. Augustine once said, their fault is not that they don’t know the faith, its that they don’t take the time to learn what they are responsible for learning. They are apathetic.
Concerning the , New Mass, I once heard it described as, “That poisonous mass”. I would also add, soul-killing, protestant, banal and odious to God. I spent many years trapped in that lethal environment and by the grace of God now only go to the Catholic Mass (traditional). I pray that God one day takes the new mass and flings it back into hell from whence it came
Thank you, Louie, for these two latest posts, as they are full of useful instruction about HOW to think through these issues. I attend an SSPX chapel on Sunday, and a diocesan TLM on Wednesday, but still wonder about my other daily opportunity at the NO Mass. With all it faults, if the NO mass is a valid re-presentation of Calvary, at once offensive to God yet exceedingly pleasing to Him…if it really is the un-bloody sacrifice of Christ, shouldn’t I be there?
Michael Voris is a team player and plays for the team that is in control. When Benedict XVI was sitting on the throne of St. Peter, Voris was a big time traditional catholic going after the bugnini mass. Now, there is a different team in control and someone who is sitting on the throne of St. Peter who doesn’t know a lick of Latin. First time in history, by the way. So, Michael along with his financial backer, is going after traditional catholics. It isn’t that hard to understand. He wants to be on the winning team.
Thankyou louie for all the time and effort put forth in this blog and especially for the last 2 posts. You show a geniune concern for wanting to find the truth and allow a mixture of comments mine included that you may personally disagree with but you welcome all opinons. I have to commend you for that. As you will already know i do beleive with topics like this and others that people most probably priests also will approach you and suggest certain things to you in order to try and divert you from this line of thought. keep up the good work GOD BLESS
Is the N.O. a bad thing in itself that is always bad no matter how holy the priest? It’s naive to think priests who say the N.O. are bad priests, no matter how many we know of.
Is this different from the TLM being said by an evil priest? I’m thinking here about the TLM being said by that active sexually perverted priest in England revealed recently.
Has Our Lord allowed good fruit to come from this objectively bad Mass – given the faith maintained by those who have no choice but to attend? I’m thinking here of most of us who come from N.O. land into the truth of the TLM.
What would be the fruits of thousands and thousands of people not attending Mass on Sunday? Here I’m thinking of the example given to the world – bad or good? What would be the reaction of priests and bishops – would they begin to change and convert?
It is God who commands us to worship Him. But it is Holy Mother Church who chose Sunday, and the Mass, as the means of that worship. How would that dualism play out if many, many stopped attending Mass?
Lots of us here have the TLM either daily or on Sunday. What would be the result of all the rest staying home week after week? Some could drive, even for hours, to the TLM but many would be stuck. What would that be like for them? Would this result in Home Churches and private priests, and private Masses – bad in my mind.
Are we not suggesting a massive protest? But would it be massive? I’m not sure about the numbers – and we’d have to play the numbers game for this ‘protest’ to have any good fruit.
Would stopping attending the N.O. be simply a personal effort or part of a movement?
Lots of questions but I think seeking answers might help me, at least, from focusing on which pope does what, and how bad the N.O. is, exclusively. After all can we recommend an action without thinking about what comes after?
Hi barbara from 50mins onwards may help you a little ?
So, for Michael Voris, it has more to do with who the Pope is than with other people or groups. That does make sense and explains why he treats the Pope like a sacred cow — popalotry.
The enemies of Our Lord’s church gave us (imposed on us) the Novus Ordo rite. I can’t think of a simpler way to put it. Attending this “mass” validates their evil intentions. If you feel you must attend, don’t put anything in the collection basket except a note demanding the return of the TLM.
For those who like to keep up with Michael (Borish?), check this out!
Thank you, john6, for that link. Some interesting points but the good bishop doesn’t speak to any of the queries I raised above.
My comment above was an attempt to ask questions that I don’t see being asked here: so, ok, we don’t attend the N.O. What comes after that?
Very well explained, Mr Verrechio. The Faith is never irrational. No doctrine of the Faith or discipline or practice dependent upon doctrine can ever be irrational or contradictory.
The Novus Ordo is a non-Catholic worship service. It is the worship service attached to an Institution often called the ‘Conciliar Church’; a movement founded on a council which took place in the Vatican in the 60s and which represents a schsim from Catholic doctrine, discipline and worship. VII has heresy in the black print of its pages and every Council Father who never renounced VII lost his authority in Christ’s Church (the Code of Canon law basically give such a prelate 6 months to renounce his heresy in case he made it by mistake). This is what the Church and her Saints and Doctors teach regarding how authority is lost with regards to heresy and schism.
Louie wrote: “It has been mentioned that nothing exists in the tradition of the Church that might inform the faithful as to how we might rightly behave in such circumstances as these. There’s a reason for that. Not only is the present liturgical crisis unprecedented; it would seem that even those Saints and Doctors of the Church who entertained the possibility of a reigning pope falling into heresy never imagined that the Roman Pontiff might one day force a fabricated rite like the Novus Ordo upon the children of the Church.” ——- The Problem WAS sorted out by the fact that anyone displaying heretical or schismatic or apostasizing qualities publicly and unrepentedly has no authority to make any changes in Christ’s Church let alone promulgate them. Therefore this issue has been DECIDED by “Saints and Doctors of the Church who entertained the possibility of a reigning pope falling into heresy” – to repeat, they taught that a public heretic has no authority in Christ’s Church – he is without jurisdicition to teach or make laws or promulgate disciplines, and certainly in no way has authority to promulgate new worship. Therefore – the heresiarch Montini/Paul VI, much as say the Archbishop of Cantebury might do, introduced a new religion with a new way of worshipping. That he did so in real estate that had held authoritative Catholics Sees for centuries happened and continues to happen because only a handful of exiled Catholics actually hold to the teachings of the Church regarding heretics and authority and are largely ignored when they point out the plain and obvious, if hard-sayings, of Catholic truth.
PS: For some reason, if I try to post on the linked forum, it disappears.
Tried to post this:
It alwasy comes back to VII. That Montini/Paul VI UNIVERSALLY promulgated a non-Catholic Council as THE church and a non-Catholic rite as THE rite is proof he was a pretender to the throne. (It should also be remembered that any prelate who has any manifest heretical words or behaviour on his consciences unconfessed can never be elected a Pope and likewise loses his office if he is Pope). Montini and his cluster of heresiarchal ‘potentates’ are the exact creatures Bellarmine (who concurred with the Fathers, and whom later theologians concur with, all agreeing with Divine Law and the pronouncments of the Popes) excluded from having any authority in the Catholic Church. Montini, Wojtyla, Ratzinger, Bergoglio are the men Pope Paul IV was speaking of when he gave all the faithful the express permisssion to treat them as ‘warlocks’, heathens, and publicans’. Instead most people continue to live and worship as if ‘he who hears [the warlocks] hears Me.’ Diabolical.
Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio Paul IV: “Castellans, Prefects, Captains and Officials, even of Our Beloved City and of the entire Ecclesiastical State, even if they shall be obliged and beholden to those [heretics] thus promoted or elevated by homage, oath or security; shall be permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those [heretics] thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs (the same subject persons, nevertheless, remaining bound by the duty of fidelity and obedience to any future Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates, Cardinals and Roman Pontiff canonically entering).” Treat Bergoglio as a “warlock, heathen, publican, heresiarch’ – likewise, Ratzinger, Wojtyla of wretched memory…. Matthew 18 “And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican…” These ‘warlocks’ “will not hear the Church”.
Reading the entirety of Cum Ex Apostolatus leaves us in no doubt that Rome is currenlty ruled by ‘warlocks’, not by Peters.
“Their new religion is against the true Mass, and the true Mass destroys their new false religion, a religion without sacrifice, expiation, satisfaction, divine justice, penance, self-denial, asceticism; the religion of the so called “love, love, love” that is nothing but words.”
Bishop Tissier de Mallerais (SSPX)
To answer your questions generally:
Every soul has to make a prudent decision based on his circumstances, dispositions and knowledge of the faith.
An individual soul cannot go against his conscience if this tells him/her to stop going to a mass that offers nothing but offense against the Almighty. Whatever good (and I’d argue that this is certainly a “good”) an individual soul performs brings benefit to the entire Church, and obviously the collective result of such actions by a mass of catholics could only bring more graces and benefits to the Church.
Furthermore: actually, if you think about it, if even a small proportion of catholics stopped attending the NO and demanded nothing else than the mass of the Ages, the demand for the True Mass would automatically explode and by that fact alone, slowly – little by little – but surely enough there would be more and more TLMs popping around the world. In France there are more TLM masses available per head than anywhere else in the world (by far). Why? ‘Cause the French trads demanded nothing else than to be offered the real sacrifice of Christ on Calvary!!
Catholics in other countries need to follow suit.
Also – we need to “attack” the conciliarists where it hurts the most – in their pockets.
The German hierarchical mafia has the power that it has because Catholics go along with paying the outrageous “Church tax”. Do you think the German heretics would be singing the same tune if hordes of catholics fled the mainstream church to avoid the Church tax and got the sacraments elsewhere, say the SSPX?
And personally, I see no problem whatsoever with private priests and private masses. This was exactly the situation of the catholic remnant during the protestant persecutions in England.
🙂 🙂 🙂
“The Great Comparison: The Traditional Latin Mass vs. the New “Mass” of Paul VI (1969)
I see his blood upon the rose
I see his blood upon the rose
And in the stars the glory of his eyes,
His body gleams amid eternal snows,
His tears fall from the skies.
I see his face in every flower;
The thunder and the singing of the birds
Are but his voice—and carven by his power
Rocks are his written words.
All pathways by his feet are worn,
His strong heart stirs the ever-beating sea,
His crown of thorns is twined with every thorn,
His cross is every tree.
Joseph Mary Plunkett
oops – the forum link did show a reply but it is found under ‘sacred liturgy’.
The biblical false prophet waters down doctrine on Our Lord in the bleessed sacrament.
But we can never forget intent. Many here impute evil motives and persistent heresy to priests and bishops – we must give everyone the benefit of the doubt – as we would want others to do to us. Only God can read the heart.
Let’s judge actions and words but NEVER intent – we simply can’t know it.
It is one thing to try to educate others to the Truth, and to suffer sorrow when they will not listen because of their blind eyes, but we can’t assume they have evil intent.
We know there are those in mortal sin whose eyes are blinded by God because He knows they will not respond to His grace. But can we say that about all those who appear to have lost their Faith?
Isn’t there enough ‘crisis’ to go around without endangering our own souls with rash judgement?
I would much rather see serious discussion of the crisis, and what we do about it, than constant imputing of motives when that is impossible.
Contrast: Fraternity parish – yesterday at Adoration we saw a woman, prostrate before Our Lord, praying the Rosary. There was another woman at the back in the little vestibule on her knees praying her Rosary. These are unusual occurrences now but reminded me that in ‘the bad old days’ this would have been common among the very devoted. Do we not read about Saints doing this? This kind of devotion is bred in the Holy Mass of The Ages.
Contrast: last time I went to a N.O. Mass I heard the priest, ‘sacred ministers’ and public talking laughing and talking loudly before they ‘processed’ to the front. Many, many people were dressed scandalously. These ill taught people acted as if they were at a concert – no kneeling, no bowed heads, no missals, Communion in the hand, all started talking the second the priest et al left the sanctuary.
By their fruits you shall know them.
Lets take an Agatha Christie, (detective novelist), look at the NO mass.
Plot: To destroy the Catholic Church.
Priority: Destroy Catholic Mass.
Strategy: Permanent Instuction of Alta Vendita.
Perpetrators: 1. Roncalli. Communist; registered mason. (Lodge, code name, reg. no. known.) Automatically excommunicated. Non-Catholic. Summons Council.
2. Montini. Registered mason. lodge, code name, reg.no. known. Traitor/murderer. Arrival of numerous Catholic Priests behind iron curtain awaited by KGB following tip offs by Montini. Sodomite. Automatically excommunicated. Non-Catholic. Beatified. Council promulgated by his authority – invalid council. Sacramental forms altered to render them invalid – no Bishops – no Priests – no eucharist – invalid mass.
3. Bugnini. Registered mason. Details known. Automatically excommunicated. Non-Catholic. Author/compiler of new protestant mass.
Advivors: Six protestant ministers.
Montini promulgates NO mass. Enforced.
Glory to lucifer.
Who cares what Voris thinks?
dicsussion V ‘constant imputing of motives’…
Agree. TRUTH. God gave/gives the TRUTH. IF we can’t be f****** receiving same…
Louie and various commentors on this site care what Voris thinks.
OD as an institution, will always profess loyalty to the Pope no matter who that person is and no matter what that person does. In fact, no matter how distant that person might be from OD, OD will leverage resources to get closer to him.
OD members will in fact have and may express privately a different opinion about the Pope and his hierarchy but does has no impact whatsoever on the focus of the institution to support the Pope.
Many people, specially with this current and disastrous papacy wonder about OD, they seem confused about and organization that seems conservative within the NO structures but at the same time has a vicar general praising the French Revolution in the public media or a group of female numeraries teaching the virtues of the heretic Mohamed to Muslim origin female immigrants in Valencia (Spain).
For those of us who know OD inside out for many years, decades I might say, examples like that are so many that the little Catholic sensus of Tradition you may have is enough to figure out with whom are you dealing with.
If you want a hint: Read&Think about the book “Liberalism is a sin” by Father Salvany. It contains many clues to understand current events including OD.
“Is the N.O. a bad thing in itself that is always bad no matter how holy the priest?”
Yes, it is. It is quite likely it is being said by an invalidly ordained layman. The eucharist is invalid due to an invalid sacramental form. Everybody present is a material heretic. (No sin involved for the good souls present who are unaware of their heresy.) They obtain much grace from their good intent, but no sacramental grace, because there was no sacrament. Any informed Catholic present commits the sins of sacrilege and scandal.
“It’s naive to think priests who say the N.O. are bad priests, no matter how many we know of.”
I have known many very good and holy men who are NO priests. Many NO priests are brain washed into modernism from their earliest seminary days. Some are careerists who care about stipends. Some know better, but are trapped in their situation by health, age, financial situation etc. Some are just too weak to stand up for Christ.
“Is this different from the TLM being said by an evil priest?”
A TLM said by an evil, but valid, Priest is perfectly valid. I can’t quite remember the Latin expression, but it’s something like “ex opere operator, ex opere operandis” (?).
“Has Our Lord allowed good fruit to come from this objectively bad Mass”
Yes indeed, but only for the genuinely ignorant with pure intent. our Lord often brings good out of evil.
“What would be the fruits of thousands and thousands of people not attending Mass on Sunday? Here I’m thinking of the example given to the world – bad or good?”
Good fruits. Did St. Athanasius stick around with the heretics? No! He gathered the little remnant of Catholics and moved into the fields. What could be worse than the example of apostasy which the NO church is giving to the world? If one is knowledgeable, what good is achieved by partaking in sacrilege and giving scandal?
“What would be the reaction of priests and bishops – would they begin to change and convert?”
I doubt it. Any priest worth his salt knows more and better what’s going on than you, or I. The ones who are there, in the NO church, want to be there, by choice, force of circumstances, or weakness.
“But it is Holy Mother Church who chose Sunday, and the Mass, as the means of that worship. How would that dualism play out if many, many stopped attending Mass?
1. Judeo-masonry gave us the NO mass – not Holy Mother Church. See Louie above.
2. Knowledgeable Catholics are obliged by the Faith not to attend the false, invalid NO mass, under pain of sin. Please remember that the NO church is not the Catholic Church. It is the savage assault of judeo-masonry.
“What would be the result of all the rest staying home week after week?”
The survival of the Catholic Church. Rosary, scapula, live, virtual Mass for little gatherings of Catholics huddled in the stable of Bethlehem. We hate, fight and flee heretics!
“Are we not suggesting a massive protest?”
Forget about protests. This is not democratic politics. The modernist hierarchy is not ignorant of what they are doing! They are not open to popular persuasion. What they do, they do with full knowledge and satanic intent.
“Would stopping attending the N.O. be simply a personal effort or part of a movement?”
A personal commitment to Our Lord Jesus Christ, His Holy Catholic Church and for the salvation of one’s soul. What has Christ to do with belial?
“After all can we recommend an action without thinking about what comes after?”
Indeed we can. Our Lord is in control. The Immaculate Heart will triumph. Do what is right and Catholic and leave the rest in the hands of Our Lady and her Divine Son.
Excellent comment! Catholic Truth! Let’s be done with NO church. Let’s be done with pope-sifting, una cum masses and seeking communion with heresy and heretics. Let’s be brave and be CATHOLICS!
This ‘fabrication’ of the Novus Ordo Missae is hubris of the highest order!
To extrapolate from an analogy used by St. Paul and that of ‘grafting’: St. Paul, in his ecclesiology, likened the Jews prior to the victory of Christ as the ‘root’ and the gentiles as the branches ‘grafted’ upon the tree sprouting from that root. What it seems Pope Paul VI and his cohorts did was to attempt to ‘graft’ the Protestant Christians, including the Jews, to the One True Catholic Church by ‘Protestantizing’ the Holy Catholic Mass. But, returning to the analogy of St. Paul, this fabrication of the NO Missae presupposes that the Catholic Church had, or was fast losing, sanctifying grace prior to, or on the threshold of the Second Vatican Council, just as the Jewish religion at the time of the birth of Christ was that tree that no longer bore fruit and destined to be destroyed by Our Lord. But this is simply not the case with the Catholic Church — ever!— before the Second Vatican Council; the Catholic Church continued to bear spiritual fruit even during the time of the Age of Iron, during the Avignon Papacy, after the Great Schism, during and after the Italian and Northern Renaissance, and yes, even after the Protestant Revolt, the Industrial Revolution, World War I, World War II…etc…
To posit that the Catholic Church no longer bore spiritual fruit in the mid-20th century justifying the ‘aggiornamento’ of the VII and the attempt to ‘graft’ the Protestant Churches, including the Jews, to it, is simply hubris of the highest magnitude. It is mere men trying to be gods.
Peter where is the false prophet the antichrist the mark of beast 1 world government & 1 world religion ?.The new mass is valid but illicit. Priestly ordinations and episcopal ordinations are valid but illicit why ??? Exactly because the new rite is a new rite and not the latin roman rite that was bound forever by the papal bull of ST PIUS V 1570 Quo Primum. So when pius xii bound the form for ordination , espicopal and priestly the fact that the new mass has a different form doesnt invalidate the sacrament because its a new rite with a new form that intends to do the same. We have to remember theres about 22 different but all valid rites in catholic church their form for ordinations are different but still accepted as valid and the new mass is a new rite amongst those. We have to remember they didnt change the latin roman rite they created a new rite. Watered down yes can it weaken faith of some people of course i was 1 of them. We have to Remember the russian and Greek Orthodox are schismatics and herectics but their sacraments are valid. Thats the theology behind my defense of the validity of holy orders in the new rite. Then for physical scientific proof of validity i would refer to echaristic miracles throughout the world and exorcist priests that have not been able to carry out an exorcism whithout first receiving the faculties off the local bishop in other words the demon in the possessd person would not allow the exorcist to subjugate it without first obtaining the faculties off the local bishop which shows not matter how liberal and crazy they may seem they have the power of jurisdiction and they are indeed valid bishops.. My personal opinion the sedevacantist line is just too early all these things will happen and i beleive this will take place under francis as he is the false prophet spoke of in the book of the apocalypse..
For the same reason they care what you think.
Greetings from the seashore. Another 4 days and back to the daily grind. Ughhhhh. But I digress…
Great work Louie.
It is the restoration of the proper mass that is the key to restoring all things to Christ. I stumbled upon just his a while back.
Excuse the self serving nature of the following, but I put up a page on my blog with what I consider to be the essentials which every Catholic needs to know about this shameful episode in Church history. The source of most of the information is Fr. Cekada’s Work of Human Hands. I have linked to the videos that Fr. Cekada made which represent individual chapters of the said book. I have also put in a prologue from a Rorate Caeli post about the destruction of the Holy Week liturgy that took place under Pope Pius XII which began this sad episode and and intro from Fr. Hesse to provide context.
The link is here: https://sarmaticusblog.wordpress.com/anatomy-of-the-destruction-of-the-sacred-liturgy/.
God bless, and keep up the good work. 🙂
MY CHILD, do not let the fine-sounding and subtle words of men deceive you. For the kingdom of heaven consists not in talk but in virtue.
Thomas a Kempis
Could Opus Dei have simply lost its way? Sad to say other groups who had the right idea in the beginning have been overcome by modernist thought. None of us forced to join so maybe it’s time to let them go their own way and think of heavier troubles to come.
john 6, unfortunately this particular interview of Father Hesse is less than edifying. The production is sloppy and the interviewer does not seem to know where he wants to go with it…and Father Hesse seems unprepared and not to care much about the whole thing. The glass of wine in the foreground, while certainly fine if Father were at dinner or was being interviewed unawares, in this context is a bit off-putting.
Who is Father Hesse? I know he was a theologian who worked at the Vatican, like many, many others – but what is so particular about him?
Peter, we care because Michael Voris is influential with very many main-stream Catholics. Like all ‘personalities’ he has influence far beyond his capabilities. It is a great service to acknowledge the good work he has done, and continues to do, but to point out where he goes off the rails.
Great to be chatting to you again.
Bergoglio currently bears the insignia of the Patriarch of the World. Remember the third masonic trinity, the antichrist, is composed of three persons: lucifer, the patriarch of the world and the emperor of the world.
I can supply as many quotes as you would like from Saints, Popes, theologians and canon law, stating categorically that a heretic cannot be pope formaliter.
Montini, a heretic, had no authority to promulgate anything – let alone a new liturgy. The NO mas is merely a masonic concoction – nothing more. The question of legitimacy does not even arise.
Episcopal consecrations are definitely and priestly ordinations are probably invalid, due to invalid sacramental forms, promulgated by a non-Catholic heretic devoid of authority.
The NO mass is a new liturgical rite in the “Roman Rite” of the NO church. It is not a new Rite of the Church as the 22 Rites of the Catholic Church are.
Pope Pius V did not bind the liturgy of the Tridentine Mass for ever – as it sounds to us laymen that he did. In canon law the term “in perpetuity” does not mean “forever”. It simply means that the decree is open-ended time wise. It is not limited to a fixed period. The authority of all Popes is equal. No Pope has greater, or lesser authority than his predecessor, or successor. The liturgy resolves under discipline, which is subject to the authority of the Pope. Any Pope is empowered to alter the liturgy, or disciplinary laws as he sees fit – provided of course that he does not install novelties in contradiction to the Deposit of Faith.
The NO “eucharistic miracles” mean nothing. Are they definitely valid? Have they been properly investigated and authenticated by the Catholic Church? We are warned that the antichrist will work miracles which will almost deceive even the elect. lucifer can certainly work miracles, just like the priests of baal did. David Copperfield could certainly make it look as though the Jumbo jet really did disappear. These “miracles” are not for sure – forget about them.
Even protestants can exorcise by the power of the Name of Jesus. This has nothing to do with the validity of Episcopal Consecration. Bergoglio is the false prophet of the Apocalypse – as were his conciliar predecessors.
Sedevacantism is nothing other than the application of the pure and unadulterated Catholic Doctrine of 1925 years, to the current situation. It is Catholicism without masonic council and anti-popes – nothing more, or less.
Is that the take away message then? Flee and take your parish support with you? In my opinion that would leave Catholics up a creek without a paddle, unless there was a TLM within reasonable distance.
To my mind the question is simple and Louie develops this: is the N.O. bad enough to give up entirely even for Sunday obligation? Or can one continue to go until a TLM comes along?
Of course, this is a personal decision but we’re not really getting to it if we just keep saying ‘don’t go.’
LOL. OK touche! 🙂
Peter, I appreciate your response to my questions. However, I think you have settled this whole issue in your own life and may not have considered the difficulties of conscience of those who are stuck in N.O.-land.
It really goes against the Catholic conscience to miss Mass on Sunday. Let’s not forget that those Catholics who are still truly faithful just would NOT miss Mass. I hope we hear from some of them – we will get a different perspective from mine – as I have the FSSP and no worries, and from yours – as you simply are waiting for a proper pope to come along and make all things right.
I hope I have not mistaken your position but am going on what you have commented in the past.
Fair enough. 🙂
Lynda, you are so right. As God is ORDER, and REASON, He could not have given us a Faith that was not reasonable and rational. He has even raised up in His Church men and women with real intellect and tremendous faith to help us lesser lights understand.
Peter, that’s what many of us are trying to do through the Fraternity of St. Peter and the Society of Pius X, the Institute of Christ the King, and other associations of priests. When these are mentioned they are shot down as not good enough, or as compromisers etc.
We can’t simply shut the whole thing down until some utopia comes along. Heck, I’d certainly be happy to see Cardinal Burke come out on the balcony next but I’ve read here that even he’s not good enough.
I still maintain that we, here and now, cannot walk away. I don’t have any answers, just lots of questions.
Who is Father Cekada? I’ve seen him mentioned but have no background and therefore can’t give him the credibility he no doubt deserves.
ARE YOU BEING ADVISED NOT TO GO TO MASS?
Do Not Lightly Forego Holy Communion
The Voice of Christ
YOU must often return to the source of grace and divine mercy, to the fountain of goodness and perfect purity, if you wish to be free from passion and vice, if you desire to be made stronger and more watchful against all the temptations and deceits of the devil.
The enemy, knowing the great good and the healing power of Holy Communion, tries as much as he can by every manner and means to hinder and keep away the faithful and the devout. Indeed, there are some who suffer the worst assaults of Satan when disposing themselves to prepare for Holy Communion.
As it is written in Job, this wicked spirit comes among the sons of God to trouble them by his wonted malice, to make them unduly fearful and perplexed, that thus he may lessen their devotion or attack their faith to such an extent that they perhaps either forego Communion altogether or receive with little fervour.
Thomas a Kempis
You have assessed my situation perfectly correctly. I am utterly convinced in my own mind that sede is the only true, valid, Catholic solution to our current situation. I have no qualms about it at all. Thanks be to God. It took me a long time, much anguish and very much reading to reach this point. I have suffered a lot for being a sede, in my community and in my family. Some of my children won’t even talk to me. (At least that proves they got a good NO upbringing 🙂 )
I sympathize 100% with those starting out on the road out of the NO, or still on it. I promise I know how awful it is. One has no option – one must follow one’s conscience. I take the greatest comfort from St. Louis Marie de Montfort. He said that a man who says the Rosary daily will not be mislead. Well, I miss my Rosary for nothing; I have prayed my head off for guidance by the Holy Ghost; I have applied my intellect to the best of my ability; my conscience is at peace; Please God I am on the right road.
Missing “mass” on Sunday is not difficult if one believes the only mass available to be invalid and sacrilegious and that one’s attendance would give rise to scandal. As Louie said we are all sincere Catholics trying to find our way to the Truth in this diabolical situation. God bless us all.
Father Cekada is the Assistant Priest of St. Gertrude the Great sedevacantist parish in West Chester, Ohio. He is the author of “Work of Human Hands.” He has written very many articles and made many videos on sedevacantism and related subjects. He is really worth reading, or listening to.
There are reams of objective evidence on these matters.
Canon 2200.2 (1917):
“When an external violation of the Law has been committed, malice is presumed in the external forum until the contrary is proven.”
“Every soul has to make a prudent decision based on his circumstances, dispositions and knowledge of the faith.
An individual soul cannot go against his conscience if this tells him/her to stop going to a mass that offers nothing but offense against the Almighty. Whatever good (and I’d argue that this is certainly a “good”) an individual soul performs brings benefit to the entire Church, and obviously the collective result of such actions by a mass of catholics could only bring more graces and benefits to the Church.”
Thank you so much for this helpful and well argued post and the previous NO one. I admit I am still unsure of what to do. Although I have only been a Catholic for 5 years I do have a slightly different viewpoint from many recent converts. this is because between 1961 and 1962 at the age of 13/14 I had a year of attending Mass every Sunday – and rosary and Benediction on Sunday evenings in a very ordinary parish in an ordinary English town. Towards the end of that year I decided I wanted to convert and started receiving instruction. This was short-lived as my mother withdrew her permission and forbade me any further contact with the Church after a very few sessions. This was a huge blow to me but she would not be persuaded by me, by the Parish Priest or anyone else so I had to obey. Well, I argued and prayed for a couple of years and then, feeling very concerned about some of the things being reported about VII (of course I only got MSM reports), I gave up. I even joined my mother in becoming a Quaker. although I never quite forgot the glory of the Mass. Well, I became estranged even from that when I went to University and followed the well known path of following the liberal fashionable ideas and ways of living and thinking I was being so independent and judging for myself. After that, religion played a very small part in my life for many years. In my early fifties in a time of great distress I started praying the rosary again and after a year or two of that was astonished to find I believed. It still took me years but by 2009 I started going to Mass.
I felt like Rip van Winkle the first time. I only knew responses in Latin. I had never dreamed of singing Protestant hymns in Mass and I could not believe how much the Mass had changed when I had got the impression that it was only a change to English. I resisted though and made myself accept it because I had recognised that my besetting sin during my life was pride, of resisting authority and “judging for myself”. So I made myself think my objection was solely aesthetic and I must accept the Church’s authority as a test case for humbling my pride. And so I was received in 2010 and set about trying to become a good NO Catholic. But I still missed the Old Mass, I hankered for orthodoxy and reverence, I shuddered at the excesses of the sign of peace, the loud voices talking before Mass and many more but I learned to offer them up.
Quite soon I went to a TLM when on a visit to a friend, discovered the LMS and joined and went to TLM whenever I visited my daughter in London. None accessible to me in a remote part of Wales. My use of the internet helped me see that my doubts about the NO was no mere matter of aesthetics but went to the very root of the matter.
But am I ready to give up the NO? If I could find an accessible alternative, definitely but under present circumstances it would mean being Catholic totally on my own. I trust in God but I do not trust myself. I have not met one single member of my parish who thinks like me, who can see any crisis in Church – except the shortage of Priests and this could be solved by allowing Priests to marry and allowing women to become priests! Or who thinks VII was anything but a jolly good thing and we have to go forward and cannot go back. Even if I could afford to maintain a car my eyes are now past it. Although I have not found public transport too bad in this corner of Wales, scarcely anything runs on a Sunday. There are 2 TLMs in the diocese one of which is accessible by public transport but that would involve travelling on a Saturday and returning on a Monday and I cannot afford two nights accommodation for each Mass even though it is only once a month. What I can do is to go once a year for 5 nights at Easter to cover the Triduum to a former closed Parish in the next diocese whose then newly appointed Bishop invited the ICKSP to run,. This is a wonderful experience, like a retreat and I try to live on this for the rest of the year. If I could afford it I would move there to live but there is no possibility of that outside the miraculous but this does not seem to be in God’s plan for me yet.
I was extremely excited recently to discover that there is an SSPX Mass not too far away, once a fortnight in the early evening on a Sunday. For a while I thought I might be able to get there between mid- May and early September when, for the tourist season, there are three trains a day in each direction and a connecting hourly bus service. Yes, I could get there on time but the last train back leaves 2 hours before Mass even begins.
I shall keep praying to discern what I should do but I am still lost in NO land for the moment.
So sorry about this overlong reply but there seemed so much that I needed to say. Your prayers that I shall be guided to do the right thing, whatever that is would be much appreciated.
Dear OldConvert, Thank you for your testimony.
It’s words like these that leave me troubled about all this discussion. Are we to attend a Mass that offends Our Lord? A Mass wherein the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ are treated so poorly?
And yet….no Holy Communion, no Confession?
Your testimony shows you have courage, just what is so needed now. God bless you, Jane.
Actually, the “change” is, indeed, almost entirely C. But it wasn’t a leaseback of studio space. It was the purchase of another entire studio (former office) building. All of the equipment to update the previous studio and outfit the new one. I’m sure you’ve noticed the new programming and the swell graphics. There’s more staff, and, of course, addition of the “mobile studio,” something the rest of us would call a really big RV. Oh, and renovation and equipment for that monstrosity, which before I cancelled my premium membership I don’t think I had seen used.
The other element, the “Opus Dei effect,” is a contributing factor in the person of Father Nicholson, he of the soft-spoken, lispy presentations, slightly more forceful when he wants people to know he’s really, really serious about something, like in his completely venomous attacks on the SSPX or Father Gruner, and we all know how scary they are.
The quid pro quos involved: no criticism of the Communist, greenie in chief and the person responsible for the heretical new “corporate culture” in the Vatican, and no rest for the truly dangerous and threatening SSPX, who are constantly being pesky in showing what true Catholicism used to look like, still should and still does to the relatively few remaining faithful. How embarrassing to have them around.
Voris, I fear, may have literally sold his soul to become a kinda, sorta real broadcasting titan.
Peter. Where to start il have to go through your comment a bit at a time.
First the antichrist. You make the insinuation that its francis ??? Do you think he is or not ? If not who is it ?? Please confirm. The false prophet is a person who is it ? Because he comes before the antichrist. You claim its so easy to prove that a pope cant be a heretic. Well if things were that simple everybody would understand exactly were we are at. Its easy to prove material heresy but to prove formal heresy is a different story he would have to say something like contary to what the council of trent said i say this in which he openly defies a church pronouncement , now you say paul vi had no office even though the holy see is judged by know1. Also theres alot of evidence for an imposter paul vi. Now this is where your argument really falls apart you say ”
The NO mass is a new liturgical rite in the “Roman Rite” of the NO church. It is not a new Rite of the Church as the 22 Rites of the Catholic Church are. now wait a minute to say the New mass is a new liturgical rite in the roman rite is an oxymoron it makes no sense a rite of mass is a rite of mass meaning its a different way of celebrating mass. We have to distinguish for people names that are confusing like TLM & tridentine mass & latin mass old mass etc. the correct term to be used is to state which rite we are talking about ie Latin roman rite , novus ordo missae , ambrosian rite the syro malabar rite etc . Now things start getting crazy when you say the papal bull Quo Primum does not bind that the LATIN ROMAN RITE thats exactly what it was written for. To claim that perpetuity doesnt mean always is wow……..people can read the bull here for themselfs http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius05/p5quopri.htm
And to say that this is a matter of disipline is at best disingenuine the missal for the majority of western catholic church is a matter of faith & morals as we now the oldest liturgical law is lex orandi lex credendi. You say the liturgy falls under discipline not true then you say a pope cannot bind another pope. on a disciplinary matter he cannot but on faith & morals he can and our faith is practiced everyday or everyweek by liturgy we use at mass or you could say by rite of mass we use. Eucharistic miracles you say forget about them sorry peter your way off. You also say a protestant minister can say exorcism prayers well we can all say them but only catholic priest can offer the solemn rite of exorcism on another person. We can all pray deliverence prayers but thats a mile away from the rite of exorcism. Can you tell me if you accept the schismatic and herictical russian/greek ortodox sacraments as valid like the church has always done ??
We’re sure others who read and post here, like us, will be keeping you in their prayers. These are very tough times that have put our Faith to many tests.
We agree with a lot of the criticisms of VII and of the current Pontiff, and recognize the many abuses so easily attached to the N.O., but disagree that it is harmful in itself in any way. We love the TLM and have access to one with less difficulty than you describe. But we’ve maintained our active participation in an N.O. -only parish as well. We’ve managed to improve a few things by having talks with pastors and parishioners over the years, and as we’ve learned more and more about the Traditions of the Church, we’ve been able to share them with others who, as you describe are woefully ignorant of them. Most importantly, we feel as you have said, that without the support of the Sacraments – especially the Eucharist and Confession, we would have a much harder struggle against our own natural inclinations to selfishness and other vices, as well as the attacks of the devil which we’ve noticed have become far greater as the years progressed and our fidelity and love and devotion to Our Lady have grown.
Reading the encyclical of Pope Leo XIII on the Eucharist, was the clincher. http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_28051902_mirae-caritatis.html
He describes it as the soul of the Church, our EVERYTHING, our source of love and reason and means of giving of ourselves to God and others, as well as many other things–well worth the read. As Louie says, Our Lord is there. And though the TLM is far richer in teaching more aspects of our Faith, what the N.O. provides is the same Lord. Some deny that, and for them we grieve and pray.
We would encourage you to continue what you have been doing, offering up the distractions, and working to eradicate them if you are able in any way to do that. Sometimes all it takes is a heartfelt sincere plea to a pastor open to the needs of his flock, willing to consider your desire to pray before and after Mass, in a setting that honors the Real Presence in the Tabernacle.
Your example of reverence and receiving on the tongue will be observed, and if you are able to share your reasons with others, you will be doing God’s work -as a missionary within a parish. There are sure to be folks there who have the same needs you did before you became aware of the richness of Our Faith. God bless you in every way. If you do nothing else other than show them how a Catholic attends the Mass and pray for them all, you have done a great deal. What you receive from Our Lord in return, is not measurable.
And don’t forget we have the poor souls in Purgatory and the Church Triumphant in Heaven, helping us. It’s one of Our Lady’s promises to all who are devoted to her in the Rosary. We hope you also have the joy of singing some of the good old Catholic hymns and psalms, which is the one thing we miss at the TLM. We’re sure they please Our Lord, as they are His gift to us.
God Bess you.
Good questions. A lawyer called TravisS102 on the previous blog made a comment we keep going back to review. Well reasoned. He brings in the idea of committing mortal sin in the name of avoiding scandal, which made us think about what Our Lord endured. Would He Who endured the scandal of the cross hanging naked as a criminal and shedding His blood in such great pain to bring us the Eucharist and other Sacraments we so desperately need, want us to “reason” that it is better to reject those very things that give life to our souls– to avoid being associated in any way with scandal, and while it requires disobeying His will (made known through the precepts of the Church) that we attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days?
These opinion of men about God’s displeasure that lead to this behavior, don’t ring true to us, despite our respect for the sincerity and intentions of Louie and others who hold them .
In addition to what Peter Lamb wrote, it is worth mentioning that Fr. Cekada was ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre at Econe. Unfortunately (this is strictly my humble opinion) he veered off into sedevacantism with Bishops Dolan and Sandborn. Others who broke away from the SSPX veered into what are known as the Ecclesia Dei Communities, i.e. FSSP, Institute of the Good Sheppard, Transalpine Redemptorists, Campos etc. Hope this provides context for the quality of the research that Fr. Cekada has preformed and also the scale of what Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX have done for the church by producing the religious communities that are spearheading THE Restoration of all things in Christ. Whether we agree with them or not. Furthermore, as to the value of Fr. Cekada’s seminal Work of Human Hands, here is a Rorate Caeli post that explains this quite neatly.
Link here: http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/03/work-of-human-hands-interviews.html
Once again, I urge all Catholics of good will to familiarize themselves with the Work of Human Hands, since it constitutes what can be termed OBJECTIVE TRUTH about the “fabrication” of the Novus Ordo and explains qutie concisely the epoch of the Catholic Church in which it was born.
And folks, it had nothing to do with organic development.
Peter, There are many other souls who have also done much searching, been through much anguish, consecrated themselves to Jesus through Mary (according to the method prescribed by St Louis Marie de Montfort) say the Rosary (even 15 decades daily) and have came to a very different conclusion than sedevacantism.
If there is no other choice for the Catholic faithful but to attend the N.O (a valid Catholic rite Mass) to fulfil their Sunday obligation then I believe that it would be wrong to dissuade them from attending and tantamount to leading souls into mortal sin. The graces we receive from the Mass are incomprehensible and should not be withheld even on account of the many scandalous abuses that may or may not occur.
I believe that Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity) is made present on the altar at the N.O.M. and that very fact alone means worship and veneration is due.
If the eucharistic consecration in the NO mass is valid, then what you say is correct and I agree with every word you say, but what if it is invalid, as I believe it is? I am just a layman who knows precious little about sacramental theology. I base my view on the general masonic prelude to modernism, which is well known and documented; the firmly established Catholic teaching that a heretic cannot be Pope formaliter and the writings on sacramental theology of Patrick Henry Omlor and Fr. Rama Coomaraswamy. I only received a copy of Work of Human Hands yesterday and have not started reading it yet. Please read Omlor and tell me what you think:
Read here for detailed explanation of satanic pallium, mitre, antichrist etc.: http://padrepioandchiesaviva.com/
The Pope formaliter can’t be heretic – it is that simple. 🙂
A true Pope formaliter can be judged by no man – only God. You are correct.
A heretical Pope automatically loses office by committing the sin of heresy. No longer Pope formaliter, nor even a member of the Church, the heretical Pope materialiter may now be judged by man for the canonical crime of heresy.
Vatican II and the conciliar popes have committed many heresies contrary to the Deposit of Faith to writing, audio tapes and film. They are most certainly formal, pertinacious heretics.
The word “rite” is used in two contexts:
i. “A religious, or other solemn ceremony, or act.” This is what the NO mass is.
ii. “A body of customary observances characteristic of a Church, or a part of it.” These are the 22 rites in the Catholic Church.
(Concise Oxford Dictionary.)
In canon law “in perpetuity” does not mean forever. That’s just the way it is. Legal usages are not always common parlance. Words, or phrases commonly have specific meanings in law, which would not be guessed by laymen.
Certainly a Missal contains much pertaining to Faith and Morals, but it is primarily a liturgical document prescribing the liturgy of the Mass. The liturgy is part of the discipline of the Church and subject to the authority of the Pope.
I said a protestant can exorcise.
The Orthodox sacraments are most certainly valid.
A heretic canalidly baptise; A validly ordained heretic priest can confect the Eucharistic Consecration and give absolution under emergency circumstances.
A valid Pope formaliter may alter the liturgy.
A heretic cannot be Pope formaliter and therefore has no jurisdiction, or authority to alter the liturgy.
A valid Priest who uses valid matter and form confects a valid sacrament.
A valid Priest who uses invalid matter, or form cannot confect a valid sacrament.
An invalidly ordained priest cannot confect a valid sacrament – except baptism, or matrimony.
I was not able to read Louie’s post on the Novus Ordo Conniption when he posted it and have just now done so. He makes numerous excellent points which correct my statement and answer yours exactly. Please read it. It is the post immediately before this one.
Thanks for the insights.
Whatever Voris’ true motivations, a real sad turn of events for a man that could potentially be a good ally for the cause of tradition.
Opus “dei” (small d here) was a bad idea from the start.
Whenever you have a movement or religious group claiming (as “St” Josemaria Escriva did when he founded OD) that they’re trying to bring back Christianity to its original “roots” or “Faith”/”fervor”/”simplicity” that’s an infallible red flag for heresy, borderline heresy, or something sinister in that particular religious group.
As far as I know, not even St Francis of Assisi made such a claim. Other heretical groups around the same time did.
There’s a ton of information on the web regarding the bad practices of OD and the unheroic virtues of “St” Escriva, unfortunately a lot of the material is in Spanish.
Bottom line – the truth is out there for anyone who wants to know.
REASONS TO ATTEND NOVUS ORDO MASS…
mmm….to receive Jesus…Body,Blood, Soul and Divinity…
CONCERNING THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST
THUS FAR, I have tried, as perhaps you have observed, to furnish you with four kinds of spiritual weapons, and the methods by which they may be profitably employed; it remains to present to you the invaluable aids to be derived from the Holy Eucharist in subduing the enemies of perfection and salvation. As this sublime Sacrament towers above the others in dignity and efficacy, it is the most terrible of all weapons to the infernal powers.
The methods previously treated have no force but through the merits of Jesus Christ, and by the grace He has purchased for us by His Precious Blood; but the Eucharist is Jesus Christ Himself, His Body, His Blood, His Soul and Divinity. The former methods are bestowed upon us by God that we may use them in subduing the enemy through Jesus Christ; but the Eucharist is given that we may fight against the enemy with Him. For by eating the Body of Jesus, and drinking His Blood we dwell in Him and He in us. We may eat His Body and drink His Blood in reality every day, and spiritually every hour, both of which are highly profitable and holy.
The Spiritual Combat
Fr Lawrence Scupoli
What graces do you believe you are getting from garbage (would true priests, bishops, cardinals and popes who believe the Real Presence is confected in the Mass (Intent) treat the Body, Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ like this)?
“I have heard from a priest at another WYD that the consecrated hosts that were not consumed were so numerous that they had to be put in black garbage bags! ”
“I have a close priest friend whose conversion to Tradition occurred in 1995 when, as a seminarian at Mt. St. Mary’s, he was forced (yes, forced) to distribute Holy Communion at John Paul II’s Mass at Camden Yard. He saw hosts in large clear plastic garbage bags “consecrated” hundreds of yards away from the altar. Afterward, he saw those same bags still full actually pitched into dumpsters along with hosts scattered in the stands. That was enough for him.”
“The celebration of the Papal Mass is itself marked by highly irreverent and insulting acts to Our Lord. Some examples are:
during the Mass attendees shouting “John Paul II, we love You”;
attendees playing soccer during the Pope’s three hour Mass,
Communion in the hand distributed, even by the Pope himself, and unconsecrated hands distributing the sacred Hosts willy-nilly to any and all in attendance; Sacred Hosts being scattered around on the WYD grounds and falling in the mud where they are trampled on; Bishops, priests and the Pope remaining seated on the platform observing the irreverent distribution of the Sacred Hosts while doing nothing to prevent it.
“At the 2008 papal WYD Mass in Sydney, Australia, Pope Benedict XVI continued the tradition of his predecessor by denigrating the Real Presence. After the conclusion of the papal Mass, when the Pope and supporting Bishops and clergy had made their exodus, many of the sacred vessels were left unattended. A crowd descended on the unattended sacred vessels and, without scruples, began filling their bags, pockets and coats with the remaining Sacred Hosts while others stood by and watched. Still other members of the crowd dipped their fingers into the chalices filled with the Precious Blood in order to dab their foreheads with the contents. Only one Bishop tried to prevent the sacrileges while the rest of the Hierarchy and clergy had left the table hurriedly to follow the exiting papal entourage.”
You have fallen prey to modernist subjectivism if you think that what popes, cardinals, bishops and priests toss out as garbage and teach youth to toss about as garbage can also be “grace” confected by them for you. If it’s the Body and Blood of Christ don’t waste your time on a blog — go protest to your priests as you would protest in front of an abortion clinic at God being trampled like trash (or God will hold YOU accountable); if it ain’t the Body and Blood of Christ, quit pretendin’ (PLEASE) that you are committing a mortal sin by staying away from this N.O. ‘mass’.
Archbishop Lefebvre maintained at the time of the imposition of the NOM that “it leads slowly to heresy”. He also stated at that time that the number of invalid Masses was on the rise because young priests trained to think of the Mass as “a Memorial” have an intention that is more and more determined by that concept, which was completely different from what was defined at Trent. This was the case even without their being aware of the opposition because they are “under the influence of a revolutionist and modernist conception” of dogma. And in 1975, he added that the New Mass “is ambivalent and ambiguous because one priest can say it with a totally Catholic a Faith in the sacrifice, etc., and another can say it with another intention, because the words he pronounces and the gestures he makes no longer contradict [other intentions]”.
The above is from Bernard Tissier de Mallarais’s biography of the Archbishop, at p 463.
I think it abundantly clear that the suppression of the canonised Mass of All Ages and the mandatory introduction of the new rite (it is such as a matter of fact) that admitted of intentions other than the three truths of defined Catholic Faith (the priest alone offering the sacrifice, and consecrating the Eucharist, the sacrificial and propitiatory nature of the Mass, and the real and substantial presence of Christ, through transubstantiation) was materially evil, of great evil.
MAN ERUPTS DURING CATHOLIC CLIMATE CHANGE MEETING. WANTS HIS CHURCH BACK. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPMMIXASNt0
Living in rural N.E.Ontario, Can. , no TLM therefore N.O. it is. I struggled with this for a long time and still do wonder if I should just stay away. It is my humble opinion , God in His marvellous condescension of loving mercy accepts this change in the liturgy and comes to us every Sunday nonetheless. I know He Is there, I feel His love all around me, I feel His mercy- if we make the effort to go to Him, He will come to us. I cry every time the priest calls The Sacrifice down onto the altar. Mornings of my Eucharistic Adoration hours wake up praising the Lord I get to spend an hour alone with Him, my whole being thrills at just the thought of being with Jesus for an hour. The 24 hrs. after Adoration feel the same- Our hearts shall have no rest O, Lord, until they rest in Thee. The N.O. certainly is a danger to the faith for some, but there are good priests, teaching, preaching, urging, scolding, encouraging us all, the problem is with weak unholy, worldly lay people. Had 2 huge fights this past wk. 1 with apostate husband, other with apostate sister speaking for other apostate siblings, mocking, insulting, ridiculing me for adoration, time spent in prayer, unworldliness, (how I dress, who I am friends with…). Point is If God is not really there in Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, they would not be so angry, bitter, filled with rage. They would not have to fight to keep me away from Him, if He was not really there.
So many people in merry old England of Good Queen Bess felt the same way — surely the Anglican rite is just like the Catholic Mass–they’re wearin the same clothes, sayin’ practically the same words, in the very same buildings. Same w/Luther’s mess (which is the one you are now attending) w/the abominable table set up in front of what used to be the altar. Don’t know what could convince you. There could be secret vatican tapes released of Paul6, JP1, Jp2, benny and bergog laughing like hyenas at you idiots adoring your piece of bread (hey just look at a world youth day mass w/the little plastic cups in the garbage and the sodomite prostitute leading the cardinals and youth in dance and the pope bringin’ home a beach ball)–they have actually practically forbade it and all but done away w/it, but you know better.
“Had 2 huge fights this past wk. 1 with apostate husband, other with apostate sister speaking for other apostate siblings, mocking, insulting, ridiculing me for adoration, time spent in prayer, unworldliness, (how I dress, who I am friends with…). Point is If God is not really there in Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, they would not be so angry, bitter, filled with rage. They would not have to fight to keep me away from Him, if He was not really there.”
“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are…Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, “
Dear tmarie, Thank you for your love for God, your witness to others, and endurance of hardship for Him. May God bless you. God hears your prayers!
Bless you dear Lynda. God counts all our tears, sighs, and our sorrows, we must always remember to count our blessings.
Amen. Our tears and sorrows for Him, for the Holy Faith, for the salvation of souls – are the most precious offerings, and efficacious. Your sister in Christ, Lynda
Thanks for your questioning analysis . Because we are in such unprecedented waters also known as diabolical disorientation, I agree with your insights. I see it as a time of transition and a great opportunity to inform good Catholics of the diabolical machinations that went into producing the NO. It requires diving into the history of the council, with significant doses of theology and even philosophy, which should be the inheritance of every Catholic.
This is a time for Catholics who have seen something wrong for a long time to be informed by those who have discovered tradition to be helped to see that there is a way to understand what has happened. People have busy lives, children , jobs, etc., or they are older and just went along out of simple obedience. We cannot judge their hearts but it is an act of mercy to help these beautiful Catholics understand the incredible depths of the of the intentional deception and subterfuge that has been (is) at work in our Holy Mother Church. Talk about the great awakening ! It is a great privilege to have the knowledge to be able to help the confused. Meanwhile, we all work in little ways and large to see the restoration of the TLM throughout the land.
St. Vincent Ferrer, Pray for us.