I’ve gotten a few emails and messages letting me know that Michael Voris has taken another jab at the Society of St. Pius X, alleging that they have a “schismatic existence” while taking “Rome” to task for allowing a situation that has “schismatics feeling they are in good standing.”
Often, these kinds of messages include the question; one I can’t even begin to count how many times I’ve been asked:
What the hell happened to Michael Voris? He never used to be so hostile toward traditionalists…
I get it. I’m as disappointed in Michael Voris as anyone – not because I have no idea what led him to stab his traditional friends in the back, but because I do. I just haven’t been interested in putting it out there.
Rewind the clock back to 2012…
I received an email from a young man on the staff of what was then called Real Catholic TV. He informed me that Michael Voris wanted to interview me in studio about the SSPX.
To this day I’m not sure why Michael wanted to interview me of all people on that topic, but apparently something I had written for Catholic News Agency caught his attention, and even though I was still wading in neo-conservative waters back then he must have gotten the impression that I was, if not a member, at least knowledgeable about the Society.
That interview can be seen in the video below (though it has since been purged from the CMTV website along with all of my other appearances).
If you watch it, what you will find is a very cordial conversation focused entirely on the truth – the truth about Archbishop Lefebvre; the truth about the Society’s motives; the truth about its goals, and the truth about the crisis in the Church.
2012 interview with Michael Voris on the SSPX from Louie Verrecchio on Vimeo.
While not a defender of the Society himself, one sees in this interview a Michael Voris unlike the one of today; the “old Michael,” a man who used to be singularly focused on discovering the truth and defending the Faith, so much so that his openness to the intentions of the SSPX and their Catholicity was entirely evident.
Over the course of the next couple of years, even after my writing reflected the fact that my eyes had been opened to tradition, I appeared on Michael’s programs a number of times, including a 13 part series that I did with CMTV in 2013 on the Second Vatican Council.
This series (also vanished down the memory hole), while measured in its criticism of the conciliar text, made it clear that the Council put forth propositions that are plainly irreconcilable with the Catholic faith.
While Michael and I weren’t exactly drinking buddies, he was most certainly someone that I’d call a friend and vice versa.
In that same time period, Michael had also become friendly with men like Chris Ferrara, Michael Matt, John Vennari, Dr. John Rao and James Vogel. He had spent time with each of them as co-speakers at the Catholic Identity Conference in 2013, and he was a guest (courtesy of a generous SSPX member) at Dr. Rao’s Roman Forum in Gardone, Italy that same year.
Going forward, he had Chris as an on-air guest a number of times, praising him for the keenness of his insights.
In short, Michael Voris was, without any question whatsoever, an ally to so-called “traditionalists,” even if not counted as one himself, properly speaking.
So what happened?
At some point in 2012, Michael was informed that the lease for the space that Real Catholic TV occupied was not going to be renewed.
At the time, their financial situation was such that finding themselves without a studio and effectively “out of business,” at least temporarily, was a very real possibility.
What happened next is all anyone needs to know about what precipitated Michael’s stunning about face wherein good Catholic men and fellow soldiers for Christ that he once called “friend” suddenly became, not only disposable, but objects of derision, as if almost overnight they had become the enemy.
At the eleventh hour, a “knight in shining armor” and fanboi of Michael Voris strode onto the scene; a wealthy FSSP parishioner from Texas who offered to purchase a nearby building where the newly named Church Militant.tv could set up shop.
Problem solved!
Not so fast…
This particular “benefactor” wasn’t about to content himself with simply writing a few checks while leaving the heavy lifting to the pros; no, this guy wanted a return on investment well beyond whatever sense of satisfaction might come from an act of Catholic philanthropy.
As such, he leveraged his financial clout to the point of effectively purchasing for himself, in addition to some real estate in the Detroit suburbs, the title of “Executive Producer” at CMTV.
Once entrenched in the day to day operations, albeit mainly via telephone calls and emails that no one dared to ignore, over time he was able to impress upon Michael, among other things, his personal hatred for the Society of St. Pius X, somehow convincing him to adopt that irrational position as his very own, at least insofar as the editorial slant of his programming is concerned.
(I’m still not convinced that Michael actually believes some of the garbage that comes out of his mouth…)
Not content to stop there, the benefactor-turned-puppeteer also managed to convince Michael that it was necessary to take to the airwaves to vilify certain of his friends, not only for their support of the Society, but because they routinely cross a line in the sand beyond which the FSSP is, officially anyway, unable to go; namely, by pointing to the deficiencies and dangers of the Novus Ordo Missae and the errors of Vatican II, to say nothing of offering direct criticism of the words and deeds of the pope.
That’s pretty much it, folks. I wish there was something more honorable to the story, but there really isn’t.
The Michael Voris who had no problem calling attention to the Council’s landmines, and who gave the SSPX a fair hearing in light of the crisis in the Church, and who used to count guys like me, Chris Ferrara, Michael Matt, and John Vennari as friends, didn’t undergo some sort of “Road to Damascus” experience en route to the present day wherein he plays prosecutor, judge and jury in condemning the whole lot; rather, some guy with deep pockets bought him a building.
So, if you’re getting sick and tired of CMTV hurling calumnies in the direction of the SSPX and other defenders of tradition, you have two choices; either ignore their talking head altogether or buy him a bigger building, ‘cause that, my friends, is how Michael Voris rolls.
So the cost of objective truth, following Our Lord in purity and honesty, is sold at the cost of a building. Oh how utterly sad. Where is the trust in God’s providence? Without the strings attached? Is that the cost of such a courageous man’s soul? A building? Do the Vortex and Mic’D Up in your living room!
Thank you Louie for finally telling us the truth about this. It has caused me such heart ache and concern since the “change” I noticed awhile back. Between glorifying John Paul “the Great” (who was a modernist nightmare of a Pope), attacking the Society (who are the true heroes in this), ignoring the elephant in the room known as Pope Francis, and attacking traditional men like Mike Matt, Chris Ferrara, John Vennari and you…how can he sleep at night? Doesn’t he crave that purity of heart like we all do?
So sad. So bloody sad. All of that zeal and his soul bought for a stupid building. My prayer and hope is that he is set free from this cage and returns to the true camp of Christ: traditionalism:+) As MV so wisely noted, “we are wired for truth”. I can only imagine how much of that inner wiring of his is under constant confusion, disorder, anxiety, discomfort etc. No wonder he seems so angry.
It’s never to late, Michael. We will welcome you with open arms:+) We will also help you find a new building:+) The righteous man doesn’t not fall, he just gets back up again:+) Trust that Our Lord will provide you to speak His truth in fullness.
God bless you Louie. Thank you for finally showing us the reasons why things went south with MV. I will pray for him to contact you and restore your brotherhood in Christ:+)
A comment from a good friend of mine, “Here’s something I remember: Michael Voris a couple of years back would occasionally mention his spiritual director. Well, lo and behold, one day he had a Priest on, Fr. Paul Nicholson, and at one point he revealed that this was his spiritual director. Yes, the same Fr. Nicholson who said the SSPX Mass is worse than the satanic black mass, who threw Fr. Gruner under the bus when he died etc… I’ve just scoured CMTV’s archives looking for this episode and it appears it’s been removed.”
Well, that explains a lot. I thought maybe Fr. Nicholson was the catalyst of Michael’s change of heart because the vitriol that dude has spewed forth about the SSPX is akin the the blood/gore in one of those “Saw” movies (i.e. so over the top that it becomes a humorous self-referential parody). I was a CMTV premium member for about a year when the infamous “manifesto” was posted. I promptly bailed on them and, based on the feedback I found on certain Catholic internet forms, it appeared many other people with traditionalist (aka Catholic) leanings did the same. I remember thinking that decision had to have been a devastating one for CMTV from a financial standpoint, but the deep pockets of an anti-SSPX investor explains how Voris made that work. It’s sad really, because I got a lot out of CMTV’s programming, but I wasn’t willing to support them given their schizophrenic editorial stance; hands-off the pope but beat ++Dolan et. al. like a pinata into such a pulp that dental records are required to identify the victims. So the FSSP is cool with that? Really? On a side note, I almost hope ++Dolan gets elected pope someday for no other reason than the CMTV crow eating/content purge/distortion field would be more entertaining than an OT period in game seven of the Stanley Cup finals.
Louie, do you have audio and/or video of your video series on Vatican II that you did with CMTV. I really enjoyed listening to those! It would be nice to hear them again in the future!
Very interesting—very interesting, indeed! However, it is no surprise that Voris’ actions and words are being controlled by something other than TRUTH and sincere love for Our Lord’s Church. In spite of his organization’s name, he is not a member of the Church Militant fighting to restore and preserve the true Catholic Church. Louie, your advice to ignore him is great. I’m surprised that Voris’s ChurchMilitant is a link on your blog. Perhaps, you should add a cautionary note—-unless you’re an SSPX friend who likes to buy buildings.
If this is true, I’m curious if there are not other moral “discrepancies” in Voris’ life that might come out in the future. I mean, a man who can sell out like this probably has other serious vices.
How much of what is said in this article is conjecture and how much does Mr. Verecchio know as an absolute cold, hard fact? I mean that honestly and not as an accusation against Mr. Verecchio, because I’m up in the air as to how I feel about Michael Voris right now.
1. Are you certain this FSSP devotee bought the new space for ChurchMilitant?
2. Are you certain this person is now an “Executive Producer”? If so, please provide his/her name.
3. Are you certain this person influenced Michael into attacking the SSPX? Do you have that information from someone who works at ChurchMilitant?
4. Why would an FSSP person want to attack the SSPX to the point of shelling out much of his own money to have a platform to do it? I thought the two societies generally respected and liked each other, even if they did differ to some degree on how to deal/communicate with Rome?
I ask these questions in all sincerity, and would love clear answers on them, as the sudden rupture between Voris and others (like Christopher Ferrera, whom I greatly admire as a fellow lawyer) is definitely troubling and did seem to come out of left field. However, the accusations in this article are pretty severe and would hate to think most or all of them are based on conjecture or guess work.
Louie, I write a blog called “A Roaming Catholic”@ microbudgetproductions.wordpress.com, here in the New York City Borough of Queens, and I have been suspicious of Michael Voris’ Tone for the Past Year.
At one point, I expressed my doubts and suspicions, criticizing what was going on in Ferndale, MI, when I would get bombarded with long winded Essay Like Answers from “JTC”, who upon an email check, would turn out to be a Mr Terry Carroll.
I read the infamous “CMTV Manifesto”. It was written in Mr Carroll’s Style of saying about as much as a “Seinfeld” Episode says(All about Nothing).
JTC later reveals that the person who runs CMTV is only a Volunteer who answers emails in Texas.
On Prohibition of Criticizing The Pope, that is a Rule Imposed on Numeraries & Supernumeraries of Opus Dei, who are forbidden to publically criticizing the Pope.
The Check Writer In Chief imposes this Obligation on Mike Voris.
You’re Right, Louie. Michael Voris doesn’t sound like The Voris of Old.
M
I don’t know about 1, 3, and 4. I believe 2 is Terry Carroll.
http://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/fetzen-fliegen/item/1264-pay-no-attention-to-the-man-behind-the-vortex
I watched the “Vortex” in question last evening. I was appalled at the snide and slippery way “schismatic” came out of Voris.
The SSPX is, to Rome’s view, “irregular” at worst. Voris apparently has appointed himself as his own pope in such matters.
He has completely come off the rails in the last year. I’m sure that his association with the nutter, Fr. Nicholson, has more than a little to do with it.
I’m done with him. I pray that he finds his way again.
A high falutin member of the FSSP laity helped lead Michael Voris down the wrong road….why am I not surprised to hear this. For the defenders of the FSSP (the order as a whole, not the specific good priests who I’m sure are there)….stop kidding yourselves as to what they are about. Shame on Voris for seemingly “selling his soul” as well.
Id only ask this: Do you REALLY think Louie would post these things if he wasnt sure of them? I personally dont as I doubt most readers of this site would. He is a man that I take at his word….he’s never given me a reason not to do so.
As for the JP2 founded FSSP and the SSPX being basically the same….please. The FSSP is a novus ordo sect that says the Latin Mass….they are not even in the same ballpark as the SSPX.
“We control the seminaries, the academic departments of theology, the catechetical and liturgical institutions, the publishing houses, the magazines that matter and the chanceries. Most of the bishops are now on our side and those that aren’t have been neutralized. Anybody who wants a future in the hierarchy or the Catholic academy has no choice but to co-operate.” ― Fr. Hans Küng, expert theological advisor to members of the Second Vatican Council. Fr. Hans Küng ,”worthy” recipient of the Freemasons’ lifetime achievement award
-An Archbishop’s plea- to MV-
You are known as a militant, seeking God’s truth,
striving always for Grace, (as the young widow Ruth),
with a zeal that is strong like The Lord’s iron rod.
Let her words reach your heart, man :
“Thy God is my God.”
Something bad has happened to Michael Voris. I am frightened by the change in the man, who used to be so honest and sincere. I was a supporter of his and used to recommend that people listen to him. I could no longer support him when he began to act as if there was no diabolic and scandalous evil being deliberately and persistently done by Francis and his administration. It is distressing to see his acquiescent covering up of the continual heretical evil emanating from the Holy See, all the while insisting that he and his organisation (which used to be a force for good) are uncovering lies and falsehoods and the most egregious and pernicious scandals in the Church and fighting to end them and bring the Church back to what it once was, in the main, (and certainly as regards the Holy See up to 1958). None of it makes sense, rationally. He is acting like the controlled opposition to the evil in the Church, these past couple of years. As there have been other cases of good public Caholics going bad over the years, and with our experience of these, and spiritual insight, the case looks very suspect. I understand Mr Voris consecrated himself to Our Blessed Mother, and we know in these times of the Great Apostasy that consecrated souls are under greater diabolic attack. I ask that all make an effort to pray and make offerings to God and Our Lady for Mr Voris, that he may be freed from any attack or oppression. Blessed Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle . . .
It’s called the Francis Effect!
Filthy lucre.
I personally don’t know Louie, but I have noticed that there are a lot of polemics going on in the incredibly fractured traditional movement. The fracturing is constant, comes from seemingly every side and in almost every instance it seems as though every side is not only saying “Michael V. is wrong on this topic because…” or “Louie is wrong on this topic because…” but rather, “Michael thinks this” or “Louie thinks that” and “therefore he is a heretic, schismatic, idiot, etc., and you should never listen to anything he says or support his work.” I like to be guided by facts and truth and not a constant desire to see my own predetermined conceptions as validated. Hence, my hope that the points Louie is making here had some validation. If Louie were to say, “I know [point 3] is true and not just my own thoughts on what happened because…” I would absolutely take him at his word. But neither I nor anyone else should want to be the judge another person’s integrity without having some actual basis for it.
I also didn’t say that the FSSP and the SSPX are basically the same. I know very little about either but I’ve heard more than FSSP priest say that he holds SSPX priests in high regard even though they go about things differently. What does it mean to be “a novus ordo sect that says the Latin Mass?” There’s a (or several) novus ordo “sect(s)” of the Church?
One more question, can anyone explain to me, from the SSPX’s perspective (or the perspective of CFN, or Christopher Ferrera, if he has written on anything like this) what Pope Benedict XVI meant when he said that the SSPX’s irregular status arises from “doctrinal questions”? On its face it seems like he’s saying there is some doctrine of the Church the SSPX [allegedly] does not accept but that isn’t entirely clear.
I think Michael Voris is doing a tremendous work for the Lord. I wonder why you keep reporting on him. He is touching numerous souls and leading many to the One True Faith. As for blasting Pope Francis, why bother…most bloggers do so daily. It eats at you that he won’t bow to your sspx, so all he does is now lacking in Truth? I believe he sincerely loves the Lord, loves the Church, and loves his neighbor. He sacrifices most of his life for others. Can you not just report without trashing him with such frequency? Save souls and leave your brother alone to do the Lord’s work.
I can’t believe he is that dumb of the F.S.S.P.X, and Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, and Bishop A.Castro de Mayer. I believe this was a big snow job.
‘
“the general updating of the Sacred can only take place with the tradition of the past”
“ambiguity is the mark of the devil”
The FSSP is part of the vatican 2 church is what my point was….they are guided by the vatican 2 hierarchy, and they do what they are told to do. I dont believe that the FSSP has taken an official stance against Mr. Bergoglio despite what some of their priests may or may not say in their homilies. I personally have absolutely no use for them.
Now, we can get into the debate over whether or not the vatican 2 Church is the Catholic Church…but thats a totally different issue and one which you obviously havent dealt with yet. However, Id rather not get into that and re-route the discussion.
Im not sure what Mr. Ratzinger is talking about in regards to the SSPX. There are many very knowledgeable posters here who I’m sure can help you out. The SSPX openly refutes the teachings of vatican 2 and its popes while claiming that both are still valid. Maybe that’s what Mr. Ratzinger is referring to?
How is Bergoglio saving souls exactly? He tells Jews that they need not become Catholics….how can they be saved believing that lie? Shameful ignorance on your part.
I believe you misread my comment…I never said the Pope is…does that mean it is really shameful ignorance on your part, Rich? My whole comment related to Michael Voris.
Blimey. Beware the ‘puppeteer’, whatever his ‘executive producorial’ privileges.
You said “he wont bow down to the SSPX” right after citing the “pope”. You were a bit ambiguous there and I thought you were referring to bergolio. Regardless, my point is the same. Voris doesnt speak out against the evil of bergoglio so he is obviously complicit in bergoglio’s actions and/or words. This isnt rocket science.
Two questions came to mind while reading this comment.
1. Are Terry Carroll and/or Michael Voris numerary or supernumerary members of Opus Dei?
2. Is it okay for members of Opus Dei to publicly criticize Catholic bishops, other than the Pope, as Michael Voris does?
If the answer to the first question is “No,” then why is Opus Dei brought into the discussion?
If the answer to the second question is “No,” then Michael Voris’s membership in Opus Dei is certainly questionable.
You have a very broad idea of the ‘Lord’s Work’. The ‘Lord’s Work’ is to keep the mission of Holy Mother Church. To keep the mission of Holy Mother Church we must be in conformity with the same (of one mind). The ‘church’ Voris spends his days preaching is actually a substantial departure from the Faith and worship given us by God through the Church. Leo XIII warned that defecting even ‘one degree’ from the Faith is enough to lose one’s Catholicity: “The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium.”
–
The institution that was founded and ratified at the Second Vatican Council ‘receded’ from Catholic communion, and the Rites that sprouted from that evil tree are alien to the Church. It was because of this break that the SSPX came about in a struggle to sort out where the Church was and what was the Church in the aftermath of the rupture. Due to those who stayed with Catholic communion ( for the fuller story you can do no better than starting here http://www.mostholytrinityseminary.org/ ) despite being ousted from the real estate, the gates of hell have not prevailed.
–
That said, if the SSPX continue to enable those who truly alien to the Church to publicly claim Catholicity, the authenticity of the SSPX will be lost and they too will recede into the shadows of the new institution. The position of the SSPX is illogical. More or less it goes, that YES, the “Church of the living God, [is] the pillar and ground of the truth”, BUT, St Paul was wrong to teach that we would therefore “be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive.” They would have those winds of falsehood, cunning craftiness and deceit coming from the ‘ground and Pillar of Truth’.
UMMMMM – I believe Voris is the one who started this trashing and is
continuing in it. Although some, now most of the trad writers
have addressed this, it is Voris who will not stop. My initial
reaction was “Just ignore Mr Voris” after his original attack
on the SSPX and the trad writers, but since he continues spewing misinformation over and over again now, perhaps it is he who
should “leave his brother alone”. Is he saving souls by spreading
venom and falsehood against pre Vatican II teachings and the
writers and Societies that hold them dear?
Sorry — this comment should have gone above to
cheeriosinmypocket.
Dear cheerios,
You’re reacting as if Louie has not often praised the good MV has been doing all these years, while zeroing in on the dramatic change in MV’s behavior that so many Catholics could not help but notice. Watch the video Louie provided with this post, and you’ll see a different Michael–open to and even praising the SSPX’s dedication to tradition; behaving as if he fully understands the complexity and uniqueness of the situation, and why it is too simplistic for critics to label them as “schismatic”. To go from that reasonable a position, to criticizing the Vatican for leaving people with the impression it is NOT schismatic, is a 180 degree turn-around that requires explanation .
That is why MV is the subject of so many posts, coupled with his policy of covering for and speaking no warnings about the things this current Pope says and does which harm souls, and which the Vatican knows have gone viral but fails to correct in public. The phone call to Argentina telling an adulterer to go to Communion–publicized world-wide (for example) The Vatican response: It was a private phone call on which we don’t comment?
___
If you really want to be of help to Mr. Voris and think Louie’s presentations unfair, we suggest you present some facts that attempt to refute what he says here.
Ditto, Louie. I remember viewing parts of Simon Rafe’s interview of you in that series before having come to know your herein blog. I can’t seem to find that series any longer on CMTV. It would be interesting to view them now that I am more familiar with your message.
p.s.
Re: Pope Francis, Gloria t.v. news reports today, that the man he appointed last July to advise the Vatican on Communications– Former BBC chairman Lord Patten– has called on the Church to allow Communion for people living in adultery.. Hailing Pope Francis for – quote – “heroically” opening up a debate about “whether the Church should ADAPT ITSELF MORE TO take account of CONTEMPORARY REALITIES or whether it should hold fast to an unchanging magisterium”
__
This strikes us as the “phase II” of this attack on the Church. First they talk of changing “pastoral approaches” to sinners, now they come right out and admit they are out to join with the world.
The same thing happened with abortion–first it was touted as a privacy issue dealing with a “fetus” claimed not to be a living person. Now, it is declared by many to be the taking of a human life, which is the “right” of the mother. The Pope has urged us all to put these issues on the back burner–saying if we don’t, the Church will “fall like a house of cards”. Michael Voris has taken the vocation of journalist which gives him the responsibility of reporting the truth. Yet he white-washes what this Pope does, or ignores it completely. Would you have this fact ignored because of the good MV has done in the past? All we can say to that thinking is that loyalty to God and His will to save souls, should come before loyalty to people who fail in their duties so publicly.
Louie, this blog is quite timely, especially given the fact that just this week Mr. Voris interviewed a leading member of the lay apostolate in the USA branch of Tradition, Family, Property (TFP). TFP was founded by Plinio Correa de Oliveira, a very devout Brazilian Catholic layman who underpins criticism of modernity on a unique theory of history, namely that the High Middle Ages was the pinnacle and acme of the Church’s influence on the world that produced Western Christendom. However — so the historical analysis goes — since the Renaissance Western culture and society has progressively been in decline. According to the TFP beginning from the Renaissance a cultural and political revolution began which led logically to the Enlightenment then progressively to the French Revolution and ultimately to our decadent age where the paramount social position of the Church in the High Middle Ages has been completely overthrown and trampled upon. (No other than Mr. Roberto De Mattei, a Catholic author and President of the Fondazione Lepanto in Italy, considers himself a loyal student of Mr. De Oliveira.) Oliveira’s seminal book, Revolution and Counter-revolution, is suggestively critical of Vatican II, not to the technical extent say of a Mr. Michael Davies or of Bishop M. Lafebvre, but within the context of this historical and general “revolution” from the Renaissance until today.
Although quite interesting, I could never entirely accept the broad strokes made by the TFP in its interpretation of history, including the likening of the High Middle Ages as a Golden Age, a type of Eden, we have been progressively distancing ourselves from until today’s dismal state of affairs. Ironically, the general historical theory strikes me as being akin to Joachim De Flore’s utopianism, except in the reverse.
Well back to Mr. Voris. Not only did Mr. Voris interview the leading member of the TFP in his weekly program Mic’d Up, but just this week in a Vortex he also promoted a book by the TFP. In both instances, Mr. Voris seemed somewhat supportive of the TFP and comfortable with the TFP’s historical theory. TFP’s theory seems to align itself comfortably with Mr. Voris’ ongoing position that the problems of the church in the post-conciliar era began before Vatican II — and in the case of the TFP very much ‘before’ Vatican II — and that VII was not the origin of the modern crisis of the church.
But I would ask both Mr. Voris and the TFP this question: is, or is not, VII a result or a fruit of this general, historical ‘revolution’? I can imagine a member of the TFP answering yes, a progressively worse ‘fruit’ given the culminating degree the ‘revolution’ has been allowed to fester and to grow from the Renaissance until today’s date. I can’t even speculate as to how Mr. Voris would answer that question.
The SSPX and the FSSP are not “basically the same.” The founders of FSSP were once priests in the SSPX who left to join Rome and become regularized through the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei. The conditions of becoming regularized were: (1) Must accept ALL documents of Vatican II as continuous with the tradition of the Church, (2) Must accept that the Novus Ordo is equal to the Traditional Roman Latin Mass, (3) Cannot criticize Vatican II or the Novus Ordo, (4) Bishops will be provided by Rome.
The SSPX, who reject all Vatican II documents not in continuity with Church tradition and which are often contradictory with the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church.
The “doctrinal questions” you refer to are the fact that the SSPX wish to have the questionable Vatican II documents purged and rewritten clearly according to the truth of the Catholic Church as has been handed down through the ages. All of the post-conciliar Popes have supported entirely all of Vatican II along with the Roman hierarchy. Rome wants the SSPX to essentially sign up like the FSSP and stop criticizing modernism in the Church.
If you think the SSPX and the FSSP are the same, check out the dioceses of Campos, Brazil and the statement from their bishop. Rome provides their bishop and they are allowed to continue celebrating the Latin Mass. However, they must accept everything contained in Vatican II and accept the Novus Ordo as equal to the Latin Mass. As such, the Bishop’s Statement says reflects this and calls for all faithful of the dioceses to accept all of Vatican II. Understand that the underlying theology and spirit of Vatican II is different from that of tradition. Rome allows them the Latin Mass (for now) but they will never receive a traditional bishop from Rome. Rome will only give them Vatican II bishops just like the FSSP.
Alarico,
I don’t think the 13th century was the garden of Eden, but its glory was that the Kingship of Christ was generally recognized and prevailed. The progressive break down you describe was initiate by Luther and the Protestant Revolution. The next step down was Weishaupt and the spread of Judeo – Masonry which then engineered the French Revolution and Marxist Communism and the Cultural Marxism which has so successfully undermined our Christian Culture. Infiltration and over through of the Catholic Church has always been the ultimate and supreme goal, because the bottom line is lucifer’s fight against God. It was a very great victory when they secured the first, registered, judeo-masonic popes – Roncalli, then Montini and on until today. Vatican II was the Trogian horse of the assault. The rest we know.
Sorry. Trojan.
I have never read anything about the lay apostolate “Tradition, Family, Property.” However, Archbishop Lefebvre has mentioned more than once that the Middle Ages was the pinnacle of the Catholic Church. It was by no means perfect and the Church in every era had to contend with meddling secular princes as well as heresies. It was not “utopianism” but rather the relationship between Church and State together with the role of the Catholic Church with respect to the individual and the family, was more in concord with how it should be than what we have seen since the end of the Middle Ages. Also, for what it’s worth, Charlemagne is considered the model Catholic Statesman. None of this implies any kind of perfection but a Catholicity that is objectively possible and towards which we could and should strive.
Nobody believes that the crisis in the Church was conceived at Vatican II. The seeds were planted long before. The Church withstood the attacks from within and without while society continued to succumb to the onslaughts of Liberalism unleashed by the Enlightenment and the Protestant Revolution. Today we live in radical atheist secular liberal societies, whether democratic or socialist/communist. The Church stood until the 1960s against the liberal tide of society. Unfortunately, the 60s marked the first time since the end of the Middle Ages where Popes became infected with Liberalism and Modernism. Vatican II marked the Church giving up the fight against modernism.
I have no more use for Voris and continue to tell my friends not to listen to him. He has been wrong on a number of facts within the Church but his attacks on the SSPX I couldn’t understand until now. Thanks Louie.
If it was rocket science, I wouldn’t be commenting. I don’t know you, but I do know Michael Voris and have personally seen him in action. He is bringing people to the One True Faith, so you go right ahead and keep speaking out about Pope Francis, but leave Michael Voris, who is saving souls do so without attacking him at the drop of an sspx comment.
Dear Cheerios,
Even when MV says something “good”, it is difficult to trust anything from someone who appears to be “bought”. You can’t help but wonder who his puppeteer is and if his motives are pure and trustworthy. He has never said anything we already did not know from Matt, Vennari, Louie, etc. If he can’t fight the real battle (the corrupt church from within from the very top) then keep your opinions to yourself and let the true Church Militant take over.
Hi Louie,
I’m very sad to see this post. It seems that it is entirely based on speculation and heresay, which does not give one the moral certitude to post such things in a public forum, especially since it calls into question another’s motives. The judgement of charity should have been given here, as it is morally certain that nobody at CM has any other motives than the salvation of souls. If there is a Theological dispute on the SSPX then it needs to remain on that level, but to bring it to the level of questioning one’s personal motives seems out of line and suspect of slander. Please consider offering a public apology as I’m sure both you and Voris are only concerned with the salvation of souls, not money.
Hillaire Belloc’s “Crisis of Civilization” details the history of the decline, which pretty much matches what these good men were saying.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Crisis-Of-Civilization-Belloc/dp/0895554623
What’s with this all or nothing approach, especially amongst Catholics? What’s with “you’re either for the SSPX or against the SSPX?” What’s with “I’m either support the SSPX and am against CMTV or for CMTV and against the SSPX” mentality? Have you commentators lost your marbles?
I know men baptized in the Catholic Church who have little or no formation in the faith at all. Do you really think I would advise them without some formation immediately to read Harvesting the Fruit of Vatican II? I would not. It’s too complicated; it would be like trying to feed a well done steak to an infant just starting to teethe.
On the other hand, I would, and have advised such men in early stages of formation to seek out and read Church Militant TV. And I say this not because Voris is more faithful and valuable than Verrecchio, but because CMTV’s approach is amenable and useful to the poorly formed Catholic. Just because your degree of maturity in the faith is more advanced than others who may derive benefit from CMTV, should not lead you to condemn it outright, especially if it is doing good for others. Each Verrecchio and Volris is blessed by God, is God’s coadjutor in his own way.
But I confess I have written this post with some indignation towards those commentators her taking cheap shots at Voris even though Verrecchio may be correct in his analysis. Who do you think you are?
“For, whereas there is among you envying and contention, are you not carnal, and walk according to man? For while one saith, I indeed am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollo; are you not men? What then is Apollo, and what is Paul? ….I have planted, Apollo watered, but God gave the increase. Now he that planteth, and he that watereth, are one. And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour.” 1 Corinthians 3-8.
Dear Louie,
We’ve noticed a number of commenters questioning your statements about the cause of MV’s suddenly turning against so many of his trad-friends (yourself included), and apparently losing his openness to the SSPX as a benefit to the Church. We’ve all seen the changes in him, and wondered about them, as well as about his “manifesto” concerning the Pope. Looking at what you wrote, we notice you made a few very certain-sounding statements about his “benefactor” claiming he ” wasn’t about to content himself with simply writing a few checks while leaving the heavy lifting to the pros; no, this guy wanted a return on investment well beyond whatever sense of satisfaction might come from an act of Catholic philanthropy” …”As such, he leveraged his financial clout to the point of effectively purchasing for himself, in addition to some real estate in the Detroit suburbs, the title of “Executive Producer” at CMTV.” and
“Once entrenched in the day to day operations, albeit mainly via telephone calls and emails that no one dared to ignore, over time he was able to impress upon Michael, among other things, his personal hatred for the Society of St. Pius X, somehow convincing him to adopt that irrational position as his very own, at least insofar as the editorial slant of his programming is concerned.” …”Not content to stop there, the benefactor-turned-puppeteer also managed to convince Michael that it was necessary to take to the airwaves to vilify certain of his friends, not only for their support of the Society, but because they routinely cross a line in the sand beyond which the FSSP is, officially anyway, unable to go; namely, by pointing to the deficiencies and dangers of the Novus Ordo Missae and the errors of Vatican II, to say nothing of offering direct criticism of the words and deeds of the pope.”
“That’s pretty much it, folks. I wish there was something more honorable to the story, but there really isn’t.”
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So Louie, we wonder if you’d be able to share a bit more about how you KNOW all of that, to ease the tensions here? It obviously requires some contact either directly observing such shenanigans yourself, or by someone(s) you trust to tell you the truth, otherwise it would seem to be just pure speculation, which would justify the above criticisms. Hope you can help us all out with this.
Lou, you have to name names when you go down this path of calling Voris out for specific reasons, otherwise, to the casual outsider like ESH, we have no way of verifying or accepting this on face value. ESH suspects you’re right, just need something more than a “a wealthy FSSP parishioner from Texas” which means zero to a plebe like ESH…just sayin’!
Go ahead and name names like the good reporter you are…scandal is out of the barn already anyway.
Recall Rafe was doing weird borderline pervert stuff on gaming fantasy sites and was outed on it, that had to hurt Voris. He personally tried to rip ESH a new one and summarily, at least one group, Pharmacists For Life Intl, publicly withdrew from the Real Estate donation program Voris had at the time.
If MV were only concerned with the salvation of souls then he would have followed objective truth and not allowed anyone to compromise his integrity. He would not be speaking slander against holy men and women of the SSPX and the Traditional cause and leaders. Louie has graciously called for MV to bring an SSPX priest onto a show for them to discuss the theological issues but he has declined. And yes, Terry Carroll is a member of an FSSP parish in Texas and an Executive Producer for CMTV as Louie noted, Mr. Carroll notes that himself on his Google Page: https://plus.google.com/103523620007116048757/posts Click on the “About” section. God bless~
Yes, MV is a consecrated soul that is coming under attack. I absolutely will and have prayed for him. He lost his way by going along with Mr Carroll BUT there is always the opportunity to find that straight and narrow path again:+) How many times have I strayed? Haven’t we all in some small way at one time? But Our Lord’s hand is always ready to pull us back. I pray for Mr. Carroll too…all at CMTV:+) We need them in this fight. Let us pray they all return to traditionalism. I look forward to the joy of that day:+) God bless~
Dearest readers 🙂
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Please don’t take this the wrong way… I hope all of you know just how grateful I am for your participation here. That said, whether or not anyone considers what I’ve written here compelling, interesting or even downright false doesn’t really concern me very much.
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I’ve been asked dozens of times what I think happened to turn Voris from a friend of so-called “traditionalists” (aka Catholics) into an irrational calumnizer of the same and I answered by sharing some of what I know to be true.
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As for naming names… C’mon, guys… everyone knows who the ahem… “Executive Producer” of CMTV is; it’s not a mystery. I left the name unsaid to lend a degree of intrigue to an otherwise crappy but true story about how a man once trusted can so easily be prompted into publicly trashing his friends, in spite of how well they had treated him over the years.
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In any case, several of you have already mentioned the name Terry Carroll, who has been identifying himself as “Executive Producer” for some time now. Like I said; no mystery here. The mystery (no longer) is how he got the job.
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This is a guy that, as far as I can tell (anyone who knows otherwise, feel free to correct me), has no qualifications whatsoever beyond having written some hefty checks. From the other things he’s written, including the infamous “manifesto,” it sure as hell isn’t his theological insights that landed him in that position! (And yes, he personally claimed authorship of that joke of a document to me and others directly. Michael simply gave it his approval – as if he was going to tell the beneficent bankroller anything else.)
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Are there perhaps other factors beyond what I know that may have played a hand in influencing Voris to stab his friends (to whom he still owes an apology) in the back and to take every opportunity he can find to disparage the SSPX?
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Maybe, but what I’ve shared here is without any question one of, if not THE, major reason for Voris’ turnabout.
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If nothing else, maybe people will now cease asking me what happened. Either way, all of us have bigger fish to fry!
Louie, how did you come to know this? Michel Voris needs to speak out on this, as this fact, if true, seriously undermine his organization.
Very troubling.
Dear Louie,
Thank you. Though it may not seem that important to you how much credibility folks give your words, we often see the impact they have on the internet, and appreciate your taking the time here, to clarify some things.
These words of yours take the whole thing from the realm of possibly just opinion, to fact:
” And yes, he personally claimed authorship of that joke of a document to me and others directly. ”
Be assured of our continued prayers.
Forgive me for implying that MV has lost his soul. That is a rash judgement I made after first reading this blog post. I have no right to make that judgement. MV has lost his way and I heartily pray and hope that Our Lord bless him with the humility, wisdom and courage (which he already seems to have a boatload of) to return to the Traditionalist movement of restoration. God bless~
I agree with you that CMTV has programming that works with newbie and under formed Catholics (which is the majority sadly.) Their older programs like the One True Faith, Right and Reason, Armor of God and especially the St. Michael’s Basic Training are wonderful basic formation videos. Their CIA and old FBI programs on all kinds of topics were great too. As were the talks given by Michael Voris throughout the early years. From what I recall, it was around the time they produced “Moral Compass” that the infection from V2 started. I couldn’t watch the episodes after awhile since they consistently referred to JPII and V2 implying they are safe and orthodox. Then they added Fr. Paul Nicholson to the roster.
I guess what I am saying here is that I would have been tempted to promote CMTV too for the sake of those early programs but now the rest is infected with pro-V2 garble. I don’t think I could send a newbie there anymore. I would send them to Scripture Catholic.com and the Remnant’s Traditional Catholic Answers pages.
I would love it if CMTV returned to the Traditionalist movement, I would send anyone there in a heart beat. Let us pray that happens ASAP:+) God bless~
Hilariously put. Sad though…
I stopped paying attention to Voris a few years ago once I started seeing the vatican 2 popes for what they truly are. His comments about the SSPX dont affect how I think about him.
How sad that CMTV has deleted all Louie’s stuff, yet that poor excuse for a Catholic priest Fr.Nicholson is still there.
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That said, I support them – I pay my little $10 monthly – why? Because Voris does good work – he’s listened to by hundreds, nay, thousands of Catholics and some good is better than none. For many he is the only openly critical Catholic voice they hear.
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I think he’ll have to come around. As for the Texan – that is sad but goes to show just because one is a “traditionalist” one is not necessarily a saint!
“So the FSSP is cool with that?” This is an unfair question. The FSSP is an Association of Priests, not a religious order. They probably don’t have any idea what that particular Texan does with his money, nor should they. His pastor might be interested, and council him accordingly but other than we must leave the FSSP out of this discussion.
That is unnecessary. Should we look for scandal in anyone we disagree with?
It seems this post has drawn comments from a lot of people who “don’t know Louie”.
I can tell you these things:
1) If Louie’s intention was to score points at any cost, he could have posted this stuff two years ago, instead of (very prudently and charitably) waiting as long as he did.
2) Voris is *not* part of the “traditionalist movement. At this point, he’s not even a wannabe.
Lastly, has anybody said “30 pieces of silver” yet?
Your post is one long non-sequitur. Voris being sincere and loving the Lord excuses him of calumny? No one who knows the fact can honestly assert that the SSPX priests and faithful are schismatic – THE VATICAN HAS SAID THE OPPOSITE ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS – and Voris does not have the excuse of ignorance.
Huh?
Voris is the one spewing calumny – that’s a fact.
And YOU have no idea of knowing what Louie does and does not know. You clearly are not aware of some aspects of this topic that are common knowledge (i.e., T.C.).
Here’s a much simpler analysis: Voris is committing calumny against Catholics. He MUST know that what he asserts as fact is, at the very least, in doubt.
Furthermore, it is FACT that he reversed his position on this said question in the face of financial contribution.
It is not only moral and justifiable to call him on these things, publicly, it is necessary, for the sake of those he has slandered and continues to slander.
Most likely you’d have a somewhat different reaction if you were among them.
Peter. All those things – Luther/Reformation, Freemasonry, and the Russian Revolution celebrate centenaries in 2017. Strange coincidence… (oh, and Fatima as well, the odd one out).
rich,
By using the grossly insulting terms “Mr Bergoglio” and “Mr Ratzinger” you seem to be showing yourself to be supporting the attitude of the sedevacantists.
We may, as I do, disagree with many things the current Pope has said or done, but he is still the Pope and, as such, should at least be given that title.
The moment we degenerate into personal abuse of the Pope, we lose the argument and start to show Michael Voris that he some justification for his comments.
We must stick to the facts. Pope Francis is our Pope. The Novus Ordo is a valid liturgy.
Having accepted these realities, we can then move on to arguing that our Pope has said and done many dubious things that may be causing serious scandal to the Faith and that this fact should be pointed out to both the Pope and to the Church.
We can also argue the case that while the Novus Ordo is valid, it has huge defects and has caused major harm to the Faith, and that its institution was done under highly suspicious circumstances which should be reviewed.
I am simply saying that we need to be careful not to get so upset with what has happened since Vatican II that we put ourselves outside the Church.
Remember the old adage, “Follow the money trail”? Betrayals of the Faith can be boiled down to, in the three words, sex and money.
This comment of mine was removed from a CMTV article on the scandal of Fr Steven Fisher and his superiors:
It won’t paste. It must have been because I mentioned the “few good seminaries are very good, including SSPX”, and referred to what happened to the good and thriving seminary of the FFI?
yes I got deleted on the same article. I objected to one of the comments which includes a link to a petition titled a “Plea to Pope Francis concerning critically important issues”. Well one of those issues is “the schismatic existence of the SSPX”.
There’s already one Pope Michael out there, and in my view he makes more sense than MV does right now.
It’s a shame as MV is clearly talented, but the dark side has got him for now.
Yes, Majellan, the petition might make some sense if it didn’t superfluously and irrationally include an attack on the SSPX. Madness, how they remove honest posts because they acknowledge the truth. Lord, have mercy.
I though the CMTV sugar daddy was an Opus Dei person?
I’m no expert and don’t have a dog in this fight because I listen to both SSPX and FSSP sermons online and go to a TLM in a diocesan parish but the FSSP was created as an alternative to the SSPX. If if wasn’t for the SSPX they, or my Indult Mass would’t exist.
Thanks for the article. I was considering a premium membership and have donated to
Michael Voris but I have to reconsider.
I wonder what your assessment of Ann Barnhardt is?( barnhardt.biz )
This is probably controversial but I find the information in these long articles regarding SSPX very informative and useful. Along with much else.
The three are long and tedious but very much worth the effort.
http://www.tldm.org/News4/WarningsFromBeyond.1of3.htm
What I’ve seen of her I loved. That’s a lady with guts!
Bayside is a condemned and obviously false apparition.
As a former commenter at Church Militant a few short months ago (I was banished for upvoting some comments about the pope), it is apparent to this daily reader that Michael Voris is now allowing some dissenting voices in the combox about Francis. The weight of the pope’s action and words obviously have become indefensible, or maybe they noticed they had more red-lined screen names than commenters. The dialogue has certainly expanded. While Voris still imposes a curtain of silence on himself and his staff in regards to anything anti-Catholic that the pope utters (blaming it on “bad advisors”), short of calling Francis a buffoon usually passes muster.
Don’t try it with the SSPX subject. The seething spittle from Christine, et al, will hit you in the face.
Firstly, the link provided is not from Bayside but rather an exorcism witnessed by multiple priests.
Secondly, why is Bayside an “obviously false apparition”?
It has been officially condemned.
“The “messages” and other related propaganda contain statements which, among other things, are contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church…..”
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http://www.ewtn.com/Library/NEWAGE/MUGABAY.TXT
My first response to the document you have linked to is, who is this “Vernica Lueken” that is referred too? I can only assume this error strewn document you have lifted off the internet really means Veronica Lueken, the seer of Bayside. This document you have linked to also refers to an investigation of Bayside. Can you find me a link to any evidence of there EVER having been a canonical investigation of the apparitions of Bayside?
I await patiently your response with some real evidence. Thanks in advance.
While this is approx 3 yrs old, I find it relevant for today. I’ve been listening to them and then the traditional guys and things are not making sense. Like how they are (CM) pushing the old content but there are large gaps in the timeline from those shows. Gaps between seasons. Old vortexes that reference shows no longer in existence.
But the big clue that ties into your post about Texas, is Michael’s preoccupation with Texas Right to Life over the past several months. His several trips down there. His backing of certain politicians from Texas (at local and state levels), his Vortex episodes on Texas bishops, etc. why not other states? Other conferences? Now it all adds up. It makes sense. I couldn’t figure out why a guy from Detroit (my hometown, too) would be so enraptured with Texas, after all Detroit/Mich and well MANY other states to focus on. He’s the tool. The paid puppet. Why he stops short of Anything negative about the Pope. There is an agenda. You can’t trust the site when the main messenger is on the take. Seems ironic considering how he’s always blasting bishops for the same thing (Dolan for example).
Thanks!