Many observers of the SSPX have been wondering why Bishop Fellay, who in 2013 said of Pope Francis, “What we have in front of us is a genuine modernist,” has since been comparatively guarded in his public criticism of the present pontificate.
The information relayed in a recent conference given by Bishop Alfonso de Galarreta (as reported by DICI) seems to have provided the answer.
In short, he said that a process has been underway wherein Rome appears to be on the verge of shelving previous demands and granting formal canonical recognition to the Society “as it is.”
Bishop de Galarreta even went so far as to predict that Pope Francis will personally and unilaterally see to it that this happens if necessary:
He [Francis] is going to take his own steps towards recognizing the Society. He has already begun; he is simply going to continue. And I am not saying what I desire but what I foresee. I foresee, I think that the pope will lean towards a one-sided recognition of the Society, and that by acts rather than by a legal or canonical approach.
This, it appears, is why Bishop Fellay’s public criticism of Francis has been relatively tempered of late:
Clearly, it would be foolish to risk disrupting a process that appears to be leading toward what Bishop de Galarreta described as “a rather extraordinary apostolic opening [that] would have an extraordinary effect.” (We’ll have more to say about that extraordinary effect momentarily.)
Bishop de Galarreta described that process as one wherein “they [the authorities in Rome] are taking away their conditions in an effort to succeed.”
This naturally leads to the question that is causing so much consternation among those who love tradition; an effort to succeed at precisely what?
On this note, there can be no question as to the long term mission of the Roman authorities: They are Hell bent and determined to promote the conciliar revolution and construct the ecumenical church-of-man over and against the Church of Christ.
In other words, they – and by this I mean the overwhelming majority of those who occupy the highest places in Rome – wish to succeed in effecting either the Society’s conversion to modernism, or its total demise.
And let us not be naïve; the regularization of the Society (if indeed it takes place) isn’t going to change that, which is exactly why so many find the thought so very concerning.
Equally as certain, however, is the mission of the Society as described in Archbishop Lefebvre’s 1974 Declaration:
We hold fast to all that has been believed and practiced in the faith, morals, liturgy, teaching of the catechism, formation of the priest and institution of the Church, by the Church of all time; to all these things as codified in those books which saw day before the Modernist influence of the Council.
There is likewise no reason to believe that this will change in the aftermath of formal recognition either.
Bishop de Galarreta did, however, say:
There would then be two risks: that of creating an internal division and that of conditioning our preaching in certain circumstances.
Let’s consider these points individually.
Internal division is already a fact of life. There’s no doubt that the “resisters” will make hay over the Society receiving formal recognition, and may perhaps even succeed in swelling their ranks in the process.
The fact of the matter is, however, division is created by sin and confusion; not by embracing “an extraordinary apostolic opening,” even if the latter is leveraged by those who choose to divide.
As for the priests and bishops of the Society conditioning their preaching, I suspect that Bishop de Galarreta has in mind conciliatory and fearful silence, like refraining from criticism of the Council, the dangerous words and deeds of the pope, the dangers associated with the new Mass, etc.
This is an understandable concern, but I think it’s more reasonable to expect the opposite.
Where prudence currently seems to be leading Bishop Fellay to temper his speech as the process of recognition continues; once it is completed, I would expect him to speak all the more loudly and clearly.
Bishop de Galarreta indicated that the Superior General is prepared to preemptively make this known:
Bishop Fellay told us, ‘before answering this proposal from the Congregation of the Faith, I am going to write them an exhaustive explanation to make it very clear how we are and how we act, what we preach, what we do, what we do not do, and what we are not ready to do’,” – in order to find out if the Society really is accepted ‘as it is’.
Another concern being widely expressed has to do with the Society finding itself under the authority of the pope and others who hold official positions in the Church.
According to the DICI report, Bishop de Galarreta said, “There is always, in one way or another, a submission to the Roman dicasteries or to the bishops [attached to Rome’s canonical proposals]. For me, an agreement with today’s Rome is out of the question.”
What follows is critical:
He added that this is a prudential refusal, dictated by the circumstances – in the absence of the necessary warrantees for the life of the Society – and he was careful to distinguish himself from those who make this refusal an absolute.
It remains to be seen exactly what sort of warrantees will be attached to the Society’s recognition, but I trust that Bishop Fellay will do his part to secure them.
It would seem to me that the freedom to operate (i.e., to open chapels, schools and seminaries) apart from the approval of the local ordinary is going to be a crucial part of any future arrangement, as will some treatment concerning the consecration of bishops.
Matters of incardination will also need to be addressed; e.g., how will Rome handle requests from diocesan or religious priests who wish to incardinate in the Society? (Note: In 1971, Rome readily released secular and regular priests from their bishops and their religious orders; allowing them to incardinate with the SSPX. This attitude would later change as hostility toward the Society grew in the early 1970’s.)
In any case, one has every reason to expect the Society to remain true to Archbishop Lefebvre’s 1974 statement in the face of any abuse of authority that puts at risk the future of the Society and the salvation of souls:
No authority, not even the highest in the hierarchy, can force us to abandon or diminish our Catholic faith, so clearly expressed and professed by the Church’s Magisterium for nineteen centuries.
As Bishop de Galarreta said, there is nothing to fear. Even so, the perspective of history may help.
At one time, the International Priestly Society of St. Pius X enjoyed official recognition and even encouragement from Rome, only to later suffer unjust treatment at the hands of the Roman authorities, including popes, in return for their tenacious defense of Catholic tradition.
But what if the Society had never been so punished for its faithfulness? What would its status be today?
It would arguably be just as it was in 1971, an international priestly society of common life beholden in any number of ways to the jurisdiction and pleasure of local ordinaries; e.g., with respect to the establishment of local houses, chapels, and schools.
As things currently stand, after having been unjustly persecuted, there is reason to entertain the possibility that the Society may be granted a canonical arrangement that restores it more wonderfully still; with even greater freedom of operation than it previously had.
As for the effects such an “extraordinary apostolic opening” might have, provided the SSPX continues to boldly defend the truth as I fully expect that it will, the ones that immediately come to my mind are the following:
– Those who hurl accusations of schism against the SSPX will have to find another means of shameless self-promotion.
– Unsavory collared characters who currently refuse to engage the Society directly, ostensibly for fear that vulnerable faithful may “leave the Church” to join them, will have their cowardice plainly exposed.
– Laity who are genuinely confused as to the Society’s status will have reason to be so no longer.
– Bishops who have cautioned the faithful to stay away from the SSPX on the grounds that their sacraments lack validity will be without ammunition.
– The Society’s positions with respect to the errors of the Council and the dangers associated with the Novus Ordo will be legitimized.
This final point is hugely important. As of this moment, I am aware of any number of priests that agree with the Society’s position on key points, but dare not say so publicly since lockstep acceptance of Vatican II whole and entire has historically been treated as the litmus test for so-called “full communion.” If this prerequisite is removed, public criticism of the Council will only grow among their ranks.
In spite of all of this, as Fr. Gruner never tired of saying, nothing short of a pope carrying out the consecration of Russia as requested by Our Lady of Fatima will bring about the peace we desire.
Even so, who knows? Maybe the Society’s recognition will set in motion the process that in time will give rise to just such a pope.
Many questions remain, but we can be certain that Satan will redouble his efforts to prevent any of this from happening, and you know what that means: It’s time for us to redouble our own efforts with prayer and fasting.
Bergoglio HATES Tradition!! Therefore, he must HATE the SSPX. Can he be trusted? Can Newchurch be trusted? Bergoglio is cunning. Beware!
This is unrelated, but Lord Have Mercy On Us !!!….https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-calls-italys-foremost-abortion-promoter-one-of-nations-forgotten-great
“You shall tell me: “But, Monseigneur, this is the fight of David against Goliath!” yes, indeed, I know. But in his fight against Goliath, David won the victory! How did he win the victory? By a little pebble which he took from the torrent. What is this little stone, which we have? Jesus Christ! Our Lord Jesus Christ! We shall say with our ancestors from Vende: “We have no other honor than the honor of Jesus Christ. We have no other fear in the world than to offend Jesus Christ!” They went to their death to defend their God singing this! We also, let us sing with courage, wholeheartedly: “We have no other love than Our Lord Jesus Christ, no other fear than to offend Him!”
…We are convinced that the most Blessed Virgin, our good Mother who is always in the heart of the fight, encourages us. She came on earth to request that we fight, fearlessly, because she is with us.
Consecrating our families, our persons, our cities, our countries, our homelands, to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, we are convinced that she shall come to our help and that she will manage to make us come with her one day in Eternal Life.”
Francis will soon regularise Lutherans “as they are”. So to do so for the SSPX is no big deal. Remember, modernism dictates that ones faith is derived from an experience. Bergoglio’s faith comes from his experience in Liberation Theology Novus Ordo Jesuit South America. Yours and my faith comes from our experience in conservative or traditional Catholicism. Modernism states that wherever one has gained their faith through the particular experience can comfortably remain there; no need to convert and join any other. Therefore, if those of the Society received their faith from an experience of traditional Catholicism then “who am I to judge” and who am I to tell them to change. Rome is so soaked in modernism that it will grant this to the SSPX, but on the flip side, they will also grant similar recognition to those who are non-Traditional, or even non-Catholic.
Quote from Bp Fellay: ‘through unwitting obedience to recent popes these (Novus Ordites or ‘the left’) now profess and practice a faith unrecognizable to our forefathers.’
Yet the SSPX are in communion with and seek a ‘fuller’ communion with this un-Catholic profession and faith. You heard it from the bishop himself – there is no hermeneutic of continuity and he blames the substantial breech on the Vicars of Christ (a Catholic impossibility that Christ’s Vicars have perpetrated a new profession and faith – which is why they are heresiarchs with no authority, and with whom we must have no communion.)
Why is the SSPX seeking approval from a ‘profession and a practice of faith’ that is not Catholic? It is diabolical when you look at it with objective Catholic eyes wide open.
Louie says that, ‘provided the SSPX continues to boldly defend the truth,’ this continued and expanded communion with belial will be great. Christ and belial have no part of each other. The SSPX may as well be seeking a cross-religious understanding involving worship and doctrine with the Lutherans.
Where will this end? The Redemptorists are one example – alongside the ’62 missal, they must now celebrate the protestant Novus Ordo service and accept priests ‘ordained’ by the Novus Ordo invalid rites. If SSPX becomes simply another indult society it is only a matter of time until it becomes smothered by the ‘recognised authority’ of the new profession and its New faith and its evil heresiarchs.
PS. Quote from Archbishop Lefebvre:
“This union which liberal Catholics want between the Church and the Revolution is an adulterous union – adulterous. This adulterous union can only beget bastards. Where are these bastards? They are [the new] rites. The [new] rite of Mass is a bastard rite. The sacraments are bastard sacraments. We no longer know whether they are sacraments that give grace. We no longer know if this Mass gives us the Body and the Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. (…) The priests emerging from the seminaries are bastard priests.” (Homily preached at Lille, August 29, 1976, before a crowd of some 12,000.)
Christ’s Bride is rock-like, indefectible. It cannot be an adulteress begetting bastards.
“The Catholic Church, the Unblemished Bride of Christ is visible in her members – not in her property; She is greatly reduced in numbers, but she started with Our Lord and only twelve; she is in the fields and stables with St. Athanasius; she is in those Bishops, Priests, Religious and Laity who cling to the Faith and have shaken the filthy dust of the New World Order church from their shoes.”
Please, spare us. To anyone who cares to use their intellect honestly in service of the true, the teachings of Fr. Cekada and his cohorts have been exposed to be clearly, provably false. It’s also been demonstrated that those same parties will say anything, will stoop any level, including contradicting themselves and lying, to keep from admitting their errors
Read the articles there. I speak not hyperbole. It really is that obvious and that bad for Fr. Cekada and his chums.
You are morally culpable for continuing to post this trash here.
Indeed, the Church is indefectible; the doctoral theologian Archbishop Lefebvre recognized that and completely rejected the dogmatic sede position.
The Church’s indefectibility has not been damaged because no one has been bound to these errors. The Tridentine Rite was never abrogated, Rome has now told us, Vatican II absolutely did not bind (as the conciliar popes also told us), etc.
The Church did not fail during the Arian crisis when 97-99% of the hierarchy defected and it has not failed now. The sedevacantist position leads immediately to heresy as it must deny either the Church’s visibility or her indefectibility. Why do you reference Athanasius when that saint recognized the pontiff who persecuted him as the pope he surely was?
An ecumenical council of the Catholic Church anathematized anyone who would declare a prelate deposed based on their own judgement. Every theologian, including Bellarmine, who ever treated the issue of an heretical pontiff taught that, at the least, the Church would need to make a formal declaration of obstinate heresy for his public office to be taken or declared vacant.
The acceptance of a pope by the visible Church is a dogmatic fact; he must be an actual pope or nothing the Church has ever taught bears any weight..
Those are the teachings of the theologians, even those the sedevacantists try to usurp, though they have demonstrated their sophistic intent by selective quotation and other dishonesty (I’m speaking about the leaders here).
The articles at trueorfalsepope will demonstrate very quickly for those seeking truth who actually has it on their side. The sede reaction to the crisis is an emotional one and understandable at some level when only incomplete teachings are considered, but it is completely indefensible on a number of fronts when the teachings of the Church are examined closely. Those who continue to spread their errors after having been exposed to their unequivocal refutation are culpable.
Very well put.
” The Society’s positions with respect to the errors of the Council and the dangers associated with the Novus Ordo will be legitimized.
This final point is hugely important. As of this moment, I am aware of any number of priests that agree with the Society’s position on key points, but dare not say so publicly since lockstep acceptance of Vatican II whole and entire has historically been treated as the litmus test for so-called “full communion.” If this prerequisite is removed, public criticism of the Council will only grow among their ranks.”
Yes, yes, yes.
The other reason why “this final point is hugely important” is that both J XXIII and P VI are both on record that VII is only a PASTORAL COUNCIL and defined NO NEW DOGMA. With Bishop Felly’s follow-up letter (asking Rome to confirm that they will be accepted “as they are”), written using objective words under their common usage, will confirm for all to see the proper hermeneutic to be used when judging VII. And that hermeneutic is the one defined by Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX.
If this comes to pass, it will be nothing short of a complete capitulation by the VII sect.
A side effect will also be that the MP Summorum Pontificum will be secured for the foreseeable future. Can’t abrogate something that regulates ecclesiastical life for a section of the Church, no can we?
An a final question. Wonder what the neo-modernists are thinking right about ….now, about this latest escapade of their “god of surprises”.
I agree. Thankfully, +Fellay is no dummy, if you get my drift.
If we agree that Francis is a member of the church of man how can we simultaneously recognise him as the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church? Doesn’t a man need to be a Catholic to be Pope? One has to either recognise VII as the Holy Roman Catholic religion or reject it as a diabolical sect from hell. Is it just too scary to face the truth when it means that sacraments are hard to get anywhere in the world? Or is it scary to be called names by friends, family and the peanut gallery for accepting the sedevacantist thesis? What is it to keep people from realising that you are NOT a Catholic if you don’t have the Catholic faith? If you really think that you have no right do judge if Bergoglio has the Catholic faith then I don’t see the point of blogs critical of him, insinuating that he is a heretic. The fact is, if you think he’s an heretic you already judged him. If you sign petitions calling for his resignation or Church men to speak him, you’ve already judged him.
Why do we have 2 popes?
I’m tending to this way of thinking myself. The Pope wants all people united under the banner of Christ. His way, we know, is the wrong way but this impulse just might be driving him to ‘include’ the SSPX under the big tent – like he appears to be doing with protestants, atheists, and pagans. I wonder too how much push-back he’ll get. And I wonder how much influence he succumbed to in the case of the Franciscans of the Immaculate?
I mean could Pope Francis be one of those people who feels a certain way one day, then blows the other way when a different wind comes along? I think his goal of the evolution of the Church into one big hug for all will not change. But I do think he uses a scattergun approach – and blows this way and that.
As Bishop de Galarreta says there must be complete trust in God. In Pope Francis, not so much.
Salvemur, we live in the real world. Bishop Fellay is not a fool.
As well, and most important, God does not mock US. His loving Providence provides in all circumstances. The Church is built on a rock. The waves that batter the rock come in different strengths, different heights, and are constant. The rock remains – we have Our Lord’s promise on that.
Exactly J-Bomb. But will they allow Catholic Tradition into their religion smorgasbord if and when said Catholic Tradition loudly and boldly preaches against the blasphemy of the smorgasbord itself. The two can’t peacefully co-exist.
It is said that Bishop Fellay won’t accept an SSPX muzzle in exchange for “normalization”. I for one would feel a little better if his softer tone of the last few years didn’t look like a little self muzzling already.
Time will tell I suppose. If it all blows up in 2017, then all bets are off anyway. Tic toc tic toc.
The battle of the quote is also a silly game. That’s what protestants do and it is just as recognizable when sedevacantists do it.
Truth Seeker you ask these questions:
“Is it just too scary to face the truth when it means that sacraments are hard to get anywhere in the world? Or is it scary to be called names by friends, family and the peanut gallery for accepting the sedevacantist thesis?”
The more relevant questions is these: is it too scary to face the reality that God is allowing this crisis to continue? Is it too scary to face the fact that He sees all things, knows all things, yet still allows it all to unfold before our puzzled eyes? Is it too scary to see the boat swamped, to cling to the side and pray for perseverance?
Read Job carefully.
…should read “are these”
Cortez, we have one pope. Even when, in centuries long gone, there was more than one ‘claimant’ to the papacy, there was in fact ONE who was the true one.
We don’t know why Benedict XVI (sic) continues to wear white – does he regret what he did? Does he want to continue to be a presence of ‘tradition?’ The former pope is now Cardinal Ratzinger, he has resigned from his post. There is no wiggle room even if he says he’s only resigned the administrative part of the papacy. He’s gone. We have one pope.
Bishop Fellay is too smart to think that Bergoglio’s intentions are for the good of the Church. The Pope of “Surprises” is getting more and more predictable day by day. It’s embarrassing!
Barbara–Guess you are right!–We’re stuck with Francis!!!
All this elaborate scheming for nothing? Ha! Don’t ask me to figure it out, but they not only both wear white, but they both carry “Pope” in their title. Only one of them prefers being called “bishop”. They are both very “visible” to me at least. And that’s the facts, JACK!
“These most crafty enemies have filled and inebriated with gall and bitterness the Church, the spouse of the Immaculate Lamb, and have laid impious hands on her most sacred possessions. In the Holy Place itself, where the See of Holy Peter and the Chair of Truth has been set up as the light of the world, they have raised the throne of their abominable impiety, with the iniquitous design that when the Pastor has been struck, the sheep may be.”
———- Pope Leo XIII (1884)
Bishop Fellay doesn’t make comments on a daily basis, or even with any regularity at all. That’s not his job. His job is to form priests for the Lord, and to support them in their job of saving souls. How could he do this if he took time to scroll through all the chatter? Besides he is prudent. He speaks when there is a need either to teach or correct. Sounds good to me.
Yes, we could look at it that way: we’re stuck. But especially in Lent isn’t it better to accept the trials Our Loving Father sends rather than run around finding ones we like better?
Even if we did nothing else this Lent, the complete, calm, peaceful, trustful acceptance of the evil of our day would be all it would take – we must do all we can to help others see the dangers of this evil – but for ourselves it is a wonderful trial.
I for one am not going to let Francis make me lose this. We are to be holy HERE, no matter WHAT.
The things you mention – the wearing of white, the Pope calling himself Bishop of Rome – those are incidentals. Talk about facts? The fact is that there is only one pope.
It’s like Transubstantiation. We see the ‘accidents’ of bread and wine but they are really the Body and Blood. It’s not a great analogy but it can be useful here. We see two men in white, we see them say and do stupid stuff – but the fact is underneath: we have one pope.
Tea anyone? I especially like that picture-the 3rd one down.
Sorry, I see 2.
a friend of mine often says – they do these things:
“hidden in blind sight.”
This one is obvious. There are 2 visible. Don’t ask me to figure out the rest. But there’s more of a reason to it than- Hey, I’m a little tired for my pope duties. Obviously this was all planned out. Hey, at least I didn’t say there’s no pope. The sede’s have to wrestle with this one too. Anyway, we’re all in it together.
I received this video from an “ex SSPX” seminarian and priest interesting. It is an insiders view of how he saw the SSPX during his seminarian formation and priesthood and how he saw Archbishop Levebvre with a serious openness to sedevacantist. I am not espousing his views as absolute truth and accuracy but I do think Father Cekada has some very possible credible insights into the shakiness and wavering direction within the SSPX considering he was formed as a priest within its walls.God knows their situation was very far from easy. I think it is worth watching.
On page 80 of Pope John Paul’s book “Crossing the Threshold of Hope” he says this:
” Taking all this into consideration, it is difficult not to acknowledge that the Catholic Church has enthusiastically embraced ecumenism in all its complexity and carries it out day after day with great seriousness. Naturally, real unity is not and cannot be the fruit of human forces alone. The true
protagonist remains the Holy Spirit, who must determine, even from the human point of view, when the process of unity has developed sufficiently.
When will this happen? It is not easy to predict…
By the year 2000 we need to be more united, more willing to advance along the path toward the unity for which Christ prayed on the eve of His Passion. This unity is enormously precious. In a certain sense, the future of the world is at stake. The future of the Kingdom of God in the world is at
stake. Human weaknesses and prejudices cannot destroy God’s plan for the world and for humanity.
If we appreciate this, we can look to the future with a certain optimism. We can trust that “the one who began this good work in us will bring it to completion” (cf. Phil 1:6).” (end of quote)
Here’s my question:
What do the Ecumenists think the “holy spirit” is going to do when he determines we are all properly “united”?
I meant to write:
“Hidden in PLAIN sight”
Still- I don’t claim to KNOW anything. Even if one could see everything clearly-doesn’t mean he is not in danger of losing his soul.
We must all remember this.
You’re ignoring the actual substance of my post. A pope has to be Catholic. It is unreasonable to state that a man is a member of a false church and then call that same man “Holy Father”. If it were possible there could be a Muslim Pope, a Buddhist Pope, a Hindo Pope, a Voodoo Pope, etc. If the man is truly the Pope our salvation hinges on following the same faith he is.
This is such an elementary concept that it’s hard not to think that people find truth inconvenient or uncomfortable which is why they ignore it. We already have people who think he’s a heretic but call him “Pope” Francis, as if the virtue of faith and heresy can coexist.
How is it helpful that Father Cekada is a former SSPX priest? He either left, or was booted. Either way what he says about them would be suspect. How’s about some information from a priest who is still within the organization? Balance anyone?
Another elementary concept might be that this pope is a bad pope, but the pope nevertheless.
What would happen if Pope Francis wakes up tomorrow morning, slaps himself on the forehead and says “what the hell have I been thinking! I’ve got this all wrong, Lord have mercy! I will begin today to undo all I’ve done.”
Would you say that he’s the pope again?
If God’s grace can convert any soul – any soul – shouldn’t you be praying for Francis conversion instead of wasting your breath on sedevacantism – that really is a box you might not be able to climb out of.
I don’t know if anyone has access to SSPX news letters. Here is a video clip from Fr. Pilfer accusing the document named “doctrinal declaration” issued by SSPX leadership. Can Louie or anyone comment on it? It sounds reasonable to me but I am barely Catholic so I do not know much about doctrines.
They think the Holy Ghost will give them His approval for their One World Religion.
Poor John Paul II. He forgot, if he ever knew, that the Holy Catholic Church is already ONE. It is a unity within itself. The increase in membership when our separated brothers and sisters come home will not be an increase in UNITY.
John Paul II’s words are a good example of “not everything that comes out of a pope’s mouth is golden.”
This is a video from “the resistance,” a group that thinks the SSPX is going to cave into Rome and get into all kinds of NO mischief. Listen to one of Bishop Fellay’s long interviews or conferences where he discusses the talks with Rome. More instructive as to what is really going on, than these two malcontents.
I think the truth is objective, Fr. Pfeiffer was quoting a written document. The question would be 1) Does this document exist? 2) Was he quoting correctly or out of context? 3) If the quote is correct, then is the logic of Fr. Pfeiffer correct? I talked to a SSPX member who said nothing was wrong with the document but that was before I watched this video so we did not go into detail.
For the Year of Mercy, the Pope of Surprises visits a drug rehab center.
When will he visit an abortion mill?
This “resistance” group is battling the only truly “resistance” priestly society–the SSPX, which is dedicated to resisting the errors of Vatican II.
It is very sad that these priests have left the true battlefield and went off on their own to fight in their own army. They could have been very valuable soldiers within the SSPX . I believe they were led astray. I have no direct knowledge of this, but I have been told their efforts to branch out on their own are crumbling. Let us pray for these priests.
They are crumbling is not a good reason to say they are wrong. Can you address the logic presented by Fr. Pfeiffer on the document? Just we can pull V2 documents and use logic to show they are wrong one can do the same thing in defending the SSPX document.
He and the 8 others were expelled from the order because they wouldnt concede to the acceptance of the compromises that Abp Lefebvre wanted the order to make with the vatican 2 church. They werent expelled for their views regarding the existence (or not) of a pope.
Ive heard many people totally disagree with Fr Cekada, but you may be the first one who I ever saw call him a possible liar.
I think Louie has said some of the documents of Vatican II contain actual error. What I think Fr. Pfeiffer is saying is that the SSPX declarations are imply that the errors come from bad interpretations of Vatican II. Is that correct?
Sede’s really dont care about the whole benedict vs francis matter (they may have basic human interest in it but it is of no REAL importance to them). Actually, sede’s in general are pretty much at ease in ways that trads arent. Sure, sede’s are just as disgusted and frustrated with what is going on in the name of Catholocism, but sede’s dont try to reconcile the craziness of vatican 2, just as they wouldnt try to reconcile why jews or muslims do what they do.
Is it kind of like a utopia they think will come about? Or a mass conversion? It really sounds kind of scary. I read where Archbishop Lefebvre said that he couldn’t reach Pope John Paul that it was “morally impossible” to reach him. It seems like they have amnesia.
Saint Paul’s Letter to the Philipians Chapter 1:27-29
…you must play a part worthy of Christ’s gospel; ….standing fast in a common unity of spirit, with the faith of the gospel for your common cause. Show a bold front at all points to your adversaries; that is the seal of their perdition, of your salvation, and it comes from God; the grace that has been granted you is that of suffering for Christ’s sake, not merely believing in him.
I looked up both of those documents. The April 2012 doctrinal preamble sounds ambiguous. I wouldn’t sign it. But it says Bishop Fellay pulled it so that’s good.
The July 2012 declaration is pretty good. I can see where those who think the Novus Ordo is something of a sect would not like some of it.
This worries me because it may be a ploy to get their hooks into the SSPX. We all know what happened to the FFI, which was under Rome’s jurisdiction. Personally, I’ve always believed that the SSPX and others like it will step in to re-construct the Church when it and the Norvus Awful collapses…as it will within another generation.
Yes, we are in a very, very serious time but not only for the Church. Each of us has to ask himself: what will I personally do if this crisis continues into the future with no relief in sight?
We keep telling each other that Our Lady predicted all this – I believe she actually said “Rome with lose the Faith.” It has not been revealed how long this would last – it could be decades or centuries.
So what can we do? She called for the Consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart and we can pray specifically for that, and she called us individually to wear the Scapular, pray the Rosary, to offer sacrifices for the conversion of sinners, and to do our duty.
Hilary White has written a long piece over at the Remnant about what could/should be done about this crisis. Her answer is: not much can be done on a formal basis. I’m wondering if each of us could concentrate on praying and sacrificing for our own bishop and all the priests in our own diocese. If this is spread world-wide surely Our Lady will listen like the Good Mother she is, and help us.
What part of it is trash? As for the Salza-Siscoe thing, it is important that their slander and errors are pointed out.
Actually a vacant seat is totally Catholic. An institution promulgating anti-Catholic doctrine and worship under a true pope is against Catholic doctrine.
Then Barbara, you should email Louie and ask him to stop quoting true popes against the ‘nopes’ and other assorted Novus Ordites.
One wonders HOW Certain “Neo Catholics”, like those at EWTN, CatholicCulture.o
CatholicCulture.org & last but not least, the People at ChurchMilitant.com are feeling right now in regards to Regularization of SSPX.
WILL Mr Voris take his SSPX Ambush videos back, or will he edit them so he can savage Cardinal Dolan?
VII is most certainly binding in its declarations, Montini/Paul6 was very specific. Likewise The Wojtyla/JPII new profession of faith binds every prelate and presider to whatever the Concilliar Church teaches and practices, regardless of formalities. And as a layman you must not question it if you claim they are true Vicars of Christ.
I presume by now, everyone who visits this site know that VII departed from the faith and that the VII popes were and are public unrepentant heretics, and that the rites and doctrines promulgated by their institution are a departure from Catholicism also? Bp Fellay acknowledges as much. Yet he and many others deny the Catholic truth that a manifest heretic loses all Christly authority: ‘they went out from us, but they were not of us’, says St Paul.
VII and its heresiarchs now occupy every formerly Catholic See; it is a new religion. And yet so few find any concern other than maintaining their seat at the Novus Ordo table while railing against the fact that that seat is no longer Catholic, yet reiterating that it is.
All Catholics are called to abstain from the Novus Ordo and its heads. This is the only Catholic choice.
The much maligned priest of the Eternal Order of Melchisedek was right on the money when he labelled the VII machine ‘Frankenchurch’. VII is the Frankenchurch revelation and it is a revolution against Christ and His Bride. It calls every profession ‘Church’; it removes Christ as a necessity for salvation: ‘but by Me, no man cometh unto the Father’ – not according to Nostra Aetate; its worship turns its back on the sacrificial priesthood (as all protestants do), and literally turns its back on God. It can and has been soundly and plainly shown – by the Church and her teachings – that the few sedevacantist priests on earth are the only priests offering an acceptable oblation to God. As such this is the Sacrifice of the Mass we must unite ourselves with. It is the only incontrovertibly Catholic unadulterated Mass being offered in these times.
Please don’t confuse being a member of a different religion with being a sinner. You seem to call him a “bad pope” but don’t understand what it signifies. True, Catholics can be sinners, but popes must be Catholic.
Is this man’s profession of faith Roman Catholicism? If so, he can be pope and we are duly bound to profess the same faith. If not—if he’s the member of a new religion–, then he can’t be a pope. Is what is coming out of Rome and out of his words and action the Roman Catholic faith or a different faith?
MY CHILDREN, THE DAY IS APPROACHING WHEN ONE’S TIMEPIECE WILL STOP AND EVERYTHING IN THIS WORLD WILL STOP WORKING!
FEBRUARY 21, 2016 – 12:35 P.M.
URGENT APPEAL TO MANKIND FROM JESUS IN THE Blessed Sacrament
My children, peace to you.
The days of mercy are coming to an end. Mankind will soon be in the days of divine justice, when many, due to a lack of knowledge, spiritual tepidity or sin, will die. The days of the final reign of the prince of this world are about to begin. They will be 1,290 days when God’s people will be put to the test and passed through the furnace of suffering. Those days are coming; the only thing left is for my Father to send you the Warning, so the days of mercy come to an end and every word that is written may be fulfilled.
This generation will know divine justice and the vast majority will be sorry, because they have not wanted to listen to me. Days of woe will be everywhere; they will be days of distress, chaos, isolation and purification; days when, if you are not prepared spiritually, you will run the risk of being lost. The faith of My People will be tested; you will be tested as gold is tested in fire; many of the last will be first, and many of the first will be last.
My children, very soon this world will pass away and with it, all wickedness and all sin; nothing impure and sinful will be able to enter the New Creation. Pray, fast, do penance and make a good life confession, so that your path to Paradise may be endurable and so that you may, upon returning to this world, be able to be bearers of truth; truth shall be your strength and will keep your faith firm, so that you can endure the final stage of purification.
My children, the day is approaching when the timepiece will stop and everything in this world will stop working. Then, your spirit will be taken and, for a period of between fifteen and twenty minutes of your time, you will be brought to Paradise, and there you will be judged on love, as if your time had come. You will recognize the existence of the One and Triune, One True God. The Lord of Life. The Great I Am. After my mini-judgment, my Angels will take you to the place in Paradise set aside for you, according to your faults.
Woe to the half-hearted and those who are in mortal sin, because if they do not decide once and for all and repent, when they reach Paradise, many will know the darkness and the purifying fires of the third purgatory; others, along with the vast majority of this ungrateful and sinful generation, if they do not repent, are going to know hell and there, they will feel the fire with which the damned souls are tormented, that burns and does not die out! All of this at the appointed time; many through their wickedness and sin will not resist it and will die for eternity.
The vast majority of this ungrateful and sinful generation will know the different abodes of hell, so that those who through my Father’s mercy come back, will become aware that sin alone leads to eternal death; may they repent, convert, and walk again along the path that leads to salvation.
So, be prepared, my children, because your Master is already on His way. Have the table prepared and your lamps burning. Remain vigilant, so that when the Master knocks at your door, you may be able to open it for Him, greet Him and dine with Him. I leave you My peace, my peace I give you. Repent and convert, for the Kingdom of God is near.
Your Lord and Master, Jesus in the the Blessed Sacrament.
Make known my messages to all mankind.
My dear john6,
“Divine Mercy” image and “Medjugorje Madonna” are on this webpage.
This link has “falsehood” written all over it. Please stay away from this one.
You really are becoming a bore on your chosen topic. In all charity, you and other sedevacantists here are becoming a reason to stop reading Louie’s posts.
I guess I could read Louie’s posts and just skip the comment section – but that would be a shame as there are lots of things to learn from others, and it’s fun to share experiences and information.
But the rest? Sedevacantist rants, lack of fraternal charity, plain stupid comments, lack of docility to the mind of The Church…a waste of time.
Barbara, you seem convinced that the sedevacantist thesis is wrong, regardless of any evidence for or against it. By pointing out that sedevacantism is well-supported by preVatican II theological positions–namely that to lose the virtue of faith all it takes is to believe in one single heresy, that heretics are outside the Church and cannot therefore lead it, even with the consent of all the cardinals a heretic is barred from becoming a pope–I hope that people will understand that there are logical consequences to claiming that the pope doesn’t have the faith or is a member of a different church. To be docile to the Church you have to accept what it teaches is true, even if it means you realise that most sacraments are invalid and have no other recourse to dying in a state of grace but an act of perfect contrition. Ignorance can be culpable if you don’t want the truth. Pointing out these things isn’t a lack of fraternal charity anymore than telling pagans that there ancestors were wrong or that they are on the path to hell.
Cortez, you see one pope, and one abdicated pope, aka Cardinal Ratzinger. It is confusing and maybe it’s meant to be who knows – both wearing papal clothing is very odd and Cardinal Ratzinger is certainly making some sort of statement. But Cardinal Ratzinger is no longer pope.
I asked a question above to which there appears no answer, so, rich, I’ll ask you. If tomorrow morning God gives the graces necessary for conversion to Pope Francis and he begins to teach Catholic truth, and repudiate all his errors, would you acknowledge him as Pope?
Sorry to say the site you linked to is not reliable. The messages seem very odd to say the least. In one, Our Lady is referred to as “Sanctifier of Mankind.” This is nonsense. Zeal for souls and enthusiasm does not a good site make.
That’s a very good question that I honestly dont have an answer to. I’m pretty sure that I have read that some sede’s do opine this but as for me I couldnt possibly say.
I am not a member of the SPPX, but I heartily endorse much of what it says, does and stands for.
Can I plead that the SSPX accepts this offer and doesn’t get overly hung up on what the secret motives behind it might be. We must not forget that, regardless of his personal weaknesses and leanings, Pope Francis is the Pope and therefore in some manner God will speak through him at some stage. GOD IS IN CHARGE. Francis may have secret plans behind accepting the SSPX, but that does not mean that God can’t use Francis to get the society back into fully publically recognised membership of the Church with all the possibilities that brings. We sometimes look too much at the actions of sinful man and forget that God is ultimately in charge and can turn our sinful, deceitful or stupid actions into a good purpose.
Sure, I agree that the present regime in Rome is probably “up to no good”. The paklns for many of the Church’s top leaders are clearly such as to cause the destruction of the Catholic Faith, however, I can only repeat, that God is in charge, and He can, and fortunately, often does, turn our sinful plans on their heads, to point as back towards Heaven.
So SSPX, accept the offer, come back in from the cold, and help us all turn the Church back in the right direction.
Barbara, why is the truth boring? I wonder if the Catholics of St Athanasius’ day shut-up because the Arians thought they were a bore?
Catholic says, ‘No, please don’t go to that mass or have communion with those people.’
Arian says, ‘oh what bore.’
PS. No one else is forcing anyone to read anyone’s comments.
The Blood of Christ offered up by the few priests who keep an altar acceptable to God is not going to waste. Why people think the certainty that the Novus Ordo and its ways and leaders are not Catholic and that sharing that truth is uncharitable, God only knows for each person.
PS good point, Rich. CT, you have just called Fr Cekada a liar. Can you back your statement up to clear your libel?
Sedevacantists have different opinions on this. This question assumes that he has ever been elected in the first place. I don’t see why the Church could not elect him pope should he convert to Catholicism. Some are of the opinion that the only thing barring them from being pope is heresy, so they can become popes should they give up their heresy. Others suppose that they aren’t popes even potentially, so they do not have a right to claim to be popes should they become Catholics
You can read up on the explanation of the position here: http://mostholytrinityseminary.org/Explanation%20of%20the%20Thesis.pdf
Interview with Bishop Felley by Tim Sebastian (conflict zone)
Pointing out that sedevacantists do not have the truth is not calling them liars. Truth is objective. One either has it or one doesn’t. No wiggle room. Jesus Christ taught the truth, and He left us a visible Church to continue that. Deviations, no matter from whom, are not truth.
Pouring over documents to find flaws like sedevacantists do is sort of like poking through the entrails of a chicken to find the hidden pattern, the occult knowledge.
Look, I appreciate each and every commenter here; even those with whom I don’t agree. I hope I’ve made that clear enough over the years.
I had also hoped that I had been clear in saying that I don’t want every post turned into a soapbox for sedevacantist arguments, but obviously that’s not the case.
The offenders know who they are. While I have no problem culling the herd if necessary, I’d rather not. Thanks in advance.
The Reply buttons above were used up so I’ll put some thoughts here in response to some stuff above.
I’ll ask sedevacantists: where is your joy? Where is your thanksgiving for what God has given us – His Church?
All I read here and elsewhere is negative, lack of charity, half-truths and quote-picking dressed up as Truth. Accusations of slander, libel, deception, ‘not being Catholic,’ heresy misapplied to error – on and on.
The Catholic Church does not teach error – that is the cause of endless JOY. Even in our sorrow over those who promote error as truth, and influence others to sin, we can have this joy because ALL is providentially willed, or permitted, by GOD.
Here’s a quote worth thinking about. It’s from an editorial in Christian Order.
“…Francis, like the Second Vatican Council he personifies, is a winnowing fan of ecclesiastical purification in the hands of Almighty God. That’s the nub of it. Nor should we expect this winnowing process — by way of the storm of scandals shaking the Church week on week — to diminish during 2016. Even while laying siege to Heaven for the clemency we hardly deserve, we should brace ourselves for the worst. At least for as long as Francis occupies the Chair, cultivating a ‘church’ within the Church. As for the Vicars of Christ, they come and they go. But Christ remains: ruling HIS Church; ever in control. That is the absolute truth.”
That is an example of a box you can’t climb out of. One false theory leads to many to many others. If your basic premise is wrong – that because Francis sins and leads others to error he can’t be a ‘true’ pope – the house of cards you build on that false premise cannot stand.
Danielpan, you have just found the flaw in all this talk about “the document” pro and con. Father Pfeiffer says the document is a tissue of lies and compromises. You have spoken to a member of the SSPX who denies that.
So, what? We have a he-said/she-said going on. This is not the way to find truth.
Bishop Fellay is head of the SSPX. It is his responsibility, in concert with his ‘cabinet’ of district superiors and others, to respond to approaches from Rome.
There are a few who will not trust him and so they foment revolution to the point where they are asked to leave. Now from a distant vantage point they snipe at everything that comes out from the SSPX. What a waste of time.
No the basic argument is as follows:
To be a leader in the Catholic Church you must be a Catholic
Being a public heretic severs one from the Catholic Faith
Bergoglio is a pernacious heretic whose heresies are public
Therefore Bergoglio cannot govern the Church or be in a leadership position
Or here’s another one:
A popes election is null and void if he fell into heresy before being elected
Bergoglio was a heretic before being elected
Therefore Bergoglio’s election was null and void.
Understood. I replied to Barbara for the last time.
“So, what? We have a he-said/she-said going on. This is not the way to find truth” Actually if you watch the video that is not the case at all. They are using the document issued by SSPX, I found the document link. http://sspx.org/en/sspxs-bishops-declaration-25th-anniversary so it is being quoted correctly, the question is if the issue raised by Fr. Pfeiffer is logical or not. If it is not logical it can be shown without rendering any personal judgment on Bishop Fellay at all.
So let’s say the world does not end soon how are we going to elect the next Pope if all the Cardinals have been picked by non Popes?
Midway upon the journey of our life
I found myself within a forest dark,
For the streightforward pathway had been lost.
The Divine Comedy, Inferno
Bishop Fellay’s interview was a disaster! I highly doubt it was due to lack of command of english. He purposely set out not to say anything offensive toward the jews or the novus ordo sect. The writing is on the walls. He clearly wants the sspx to be recognized by Bergolio.
His intellect isn’t the problem here…perhaps power is.
You need to differentiate between popes who sin and popes who teach/promote heresy. The two are entirely different. The sin of heresy is a different animal as Im sure you know.
Let’s put this modernistic myth of Vatican II being a “pastoral” and not an infallible council to bed, once and for all.
All the requirements for infallibility were met By Vatican II. The council documents were promulgated by Paul VI, as Pope and directed to the teaching of Faith, Morals, Discipline and Governance to the Universal Church.
Furthermore, Montini himself stated in General Audience on 12 January, 1966:
“In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided any extraordinary statements of dogma endowed with the note of infallibility but it still provided its teaching with the authority of the Ordinary Magisterium which must be accepted with docility according to the mind of the Council concerning the nature and aims of each document.”
So, whilst the Council did not invoke the SOLEMN MAGISTERIUM,it did invoke the infallible authority of the ORDINARY MAGISTERIUM!
That is out of the horse’s mouth!
The misconception that ONLY the solemn magisterium defining dogmas ex cathedra is infallible is incorrect:
Vatican I (Dz 1792), Pope Pius IX (in Tuas Libenter, 1863) and also the Syllabus of Errors, (22), have unambiguously specified that Catholics must believe and adhere to, by Divine and Catholic faith, those things contained in Scripture or Tradition and also those proposed for belief as divinely revealed by the Church’s authority,either through:
(a) Solemn pronouncements (by ecumenical councils, or popes ex cathedra)
(b) UNIVERSAL ORDINARY MAGISTERIUM – teaching of the bishops together with the pope, either in council, or spread throughout the world.
If Paul VI was a true Pope, then the teachings of Vatican II are infallible and binding on all Catholics
2. Keep pressing CT to back up his slander of Fr. Cekada, or to retract and apologise.
3. R&Rs hate quotes because the truth hurts. Let them provide one single quote to confirm that to R&R is Catholic.
The SSPX has the correct attitude towards the Holy Father, and arguably towards the Council… but their attitude towards the diocesan bishops has always been more concerning to me and is as inconsistent as many of the sedes (whom I reject as much as the Eastern schismatics).
Either these bishops, as heterodox or not as they may or may not be, are bishops… or they are not. If they are, then their presence defies the law of the Church from Trent on by intruding on the jurisdiction of a lawful bishop. If they are not… well the conclusion should be logical but all fail to make that crucial step on what’s necessary. The Church must be visible and institutional, even if small and confined and She must show so with visible jurisdiction… somewhere…. even if just in the catacombs.