According to the new (read: conciliar) Code of Canon Law:
Sacred places are violated by gravely injurious actions done in them with scandal to the faithful, actions which, in the judgment of the local ordinary, are so grave and contrary to the holiness of the place that it is not permitted to carry on worship in them until the damage is repaired by a penitential rite according to the norm of the liturgical books. (Canon 1211)
The “liturgical books” mentioned refers to the Ceremonial of Bishops, which goes into more detail about how a church may be desecrated:
Acts that do grave dishonor to sacred mysteries, especially to the Eucharistic species, and are committed to show contempt for the Church, or are crimes that are serious offenses against the dignity of the person and society.
A church, therefore, is desecrated by actions that are gravely injurious in themselves and a cause of scandal to the faithful.
Did the placement of Pachamama idols and their veneration before the altar within the Church of Santa Maria della Traspontina rise to this level? Hell yeah!
That the man viewed by many as the “local ordinary” in this case isn’t actually Catholic by any real measure (e.g., such as those provided by the sacred magisterium over the course of many centuries) does nothing to change that fact.
Therefore, the the damage done to both the church and the faithful at large stand in need of repair by way of a penitential rite.
Is there even just one bishop alive who has the faith to do what needs to be done?
How about Cardinal Raymond Burke, Bishop Athanasius Schneider, or Cardinal Gerhard Muller – each one widely hailed by neo-conservatives as a defender of the faithful?
If not, how about one of the bishops of the Society of St. Pius X?
If they don’t have the wherewithal to step up, will one of their detractors among the resistance bishops be willing to take care of it?
Yes, I know… it’s not going to happen, but if any of these men had even half the Catholic testosterone as the guys who sent the Pachamommies swimming in the Tiber the other day, it would be a matter of when, not if, the deed would be done.
The 1983 Code of Canon Law (which was promulgated on 25 January 1983 by John Paul II—his name just keeps popping up amidst all of this anti-Christian carnage, doesn’t it) cites the Liturgical Books. Therein is described “… crimes that are serious offenses against the dignity of the person and society.”
I submit that the Christian heroes who tossed the blasphemous idols into the Tiber will be the ones who are deemed by the conciliarists to have committed crimes against “the dignity of the person and society.”
Yeah mothermostforgiving, that sounds about it.
“sent the Pachamommies swimming”, hehe, good one.
Neither the modernist bishops nor the traditional bishops who are capitulating to the modernists will do it.
Our Lady of Buen Suceso of the Purification, come to our aid!
The problem is not the idols, its the idolators. Burke, Schneider, and anyone else who recognizes these modernists as Catholics indirectly supports the idolatry and the sect that promotes the false worship.
Purged the graven idols but not the idolatry, and certainly not the most horrifying of it all which consists in the worshipping of a mere piece of bread in the false church. This is why Jorge doesn’t kneel; he knows and it’s written all over his face whenever he looks at it.
Right, guilt by association. “You’re either with me or against me.”
His face betrays his malice and his hatred for what it “represents”: Jesus Christ.
Luke 11:23
The Holy Eucharist is desecrated at every New Order “mass”. Does anyone in the NO “church” actually believes in the Real Presence? Does Consecration actually take place? This is the real scandal in the fake church. It’s all make believe. Is that why they play with dolls?
There are people in the Novus Ordo who definitely believe in Transubstantiation, and who believe that it undoubtedly occurs in the new mass. Whether or not it does actually happen is another question, but in answer to the first question, the short answer is yes.
When an NO fake mass occurs, it certainly desecrates what was once a holy place (if the Church was built prior to the 70s.) It is highly likely that only bread and wine are “desecrated” having to endure the tortuous NO “ceremony” with its banal liturgy and bad music.
You are 100% correct Louie. It is massive effeminacy and lack of zeal that has led us to this precipice, which we are now falling over. The pope and his accomplices do not believe in Jesus Christ as Lord, Redeemer, and Savior, but we do. It appears that the men you mentioned are our best hope if there is any hope at all, as far as conducting the rite you mentioned, which should be done! YES we are scandalized by what Francis has done, and as we are now all Cristeros, we need to demand that rite be completed. The space has been desecrated indeed by false, pagan idols.
Here is a discomforting reality, even more than observing our pope bless a demon idol at the Vatican.
There is murmuring and some questioning of, was this the right thing? And after all, stealing of property. Christians moral values are entirely screwed up now, thanks VII church, for all the moral relativism.
Perhaps our way to sort out priorities and figure out if an action is worth doing or not is to ask ourselves if Muslims would hesitate to address blasphemy in a similar situation. How sad that we must now look to Muslims to tell us how we should respond. They certainly do not tolerate blasphemy against Mohammad or Islam. I am not acknowledging their actions as good, far from it, I am only saying no one can question their willingness to defend their faith. Would that we had such zeal, the inroads would not be suffered today in the church nor in secular realms.
Do we have anything near that willingness when some quibble about the “rightness” of tossing demon idols out of one of our Catholic churches in Rome?? Within the very same space Our Lord Jesus Christ inhabits?? In the city that best represents Christendom?? No one can question this is a punch in the eye by Francis the Sadist, who will no doubt repay. Lady deacons are a given. Married priests certainly, if not before, now. He is a demonically angry, vindictive man.
Gird up. It’s about to get worse.
Was the canonization of abortion fanatic Cokie Roberts by Archbishop Wilton–accompanied by a eulogy and reception of Communion by abortion fanatic Archbishop Nancy Pelosi–the kind of act described in Canon Law? Yes!
I don’t agree. Bergoglio could not possibly hate a piece of bread the way he obviously hates the Blessed Sacrament.
There was, and always has been a few who have pointed out, that the “worst’ has already happened many decades ago. Rome is presently not representing the Church of Christ, and hasn’t been since before Vatican II. But, as is typical, people will stick their fingers in their ears, their heads in the sand, and keep their minds only on themselves and their comforts, and what they want to believe, and continue in their denial.
Everyone professing to be Catholic; please at the very least, stop insisting on publicly confessing Francis as the “pope”, and referring to his minions as “bishops”; you are just enabling and assisting them to continue their plan of destruction, and perpetuating a terrible fraud and utter madness by promoting the lie that hostile, non/anti-Catholics can be “popes” and “bishops”.
This is blasphemous to say the least, and a gross and horrible injustice to the Lord, the Holy Mother, and all of the Saints of heaven. That anti-church is not, nor could ever be, the Catholic Church!
You must confess this truth, or they will destroy your soul.
What will it take for the SSPX to make a very loud and clear statement condemning the N.O. church and refusing to associate will this imposter evil organization? What are they afraid of? Have they sold their souls to the enemies of Christ? What is their mission? Wish I knew.
It can be summed up in three words:
Loss of funds.
Dear James o–If you are correct (I tend to believe so) then the SSPX has sold their souls. Who is more devious? The NO church which no longer hides who they are—-or a Traditional Society which has abandoned their mission, but pretends they are still fighting the good fight for Our Lord’s Church.
It is diabolic unchained – and it’s ubiquitous. Our children are especially targeted with the perverse evil filth, and there is almost noone to do public sacrificial battle, particularly a lack of holy priests, bishops to lead us against the evil onslaught. Our children have been thrown to the ravening wolves. Our Lord God’s righteous anger is great. Lord God Almighty come to our aid, have mercy upon us! Blessed Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle . . .
Yeah exactly. Modernists with traditional garb. Truly frightening to ponder and behold.
It is diabolic unchained – and it’s ubiquitous. Our children are especially targeted with the perverse evil filth, and there is almost noone to do public sacrificial battle, particularly a lack of holy priests, bishops to lead us against the evil onslaught. Our children have been thrown to the ravening wolves. Our Lord God’s righteous anger is great. Lord God Almighty come to our aid, have mercy upon us! Blessed Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle . . .
Loss of Faith. Lord have mercy.
Loss of Faith. Lord have mercy. Recently, in my home, I communicated my strong disapprobation to a senior SSPX priest of the failure of the Fraternity to speak out against all the constant manifest heresy and most grave moral evil by those in control of the visible offices of the Church, and he said he disagreed with me, that the people attacking Faith and morals didn’t know what they were doing. He even said Francis didn’t know any better. I was making the point that a child who’d reached the age of reason knew extreme inherent evil as is being done by the heretic imposters running the Church. He said he wouldn’t like to be judged by me. I was shocked at his replacing matter of the objective external forum with the internal and subjective. Extremely distressing. Lord God Almighty come to our aid! Our Lady of Fatima intercede for us!
Amen.
Priests, or no Priests, we’re going to our part and teach, educate and pray with those children, and hold tightly on to the faith. The good Lord and the Holy Mother will protect those children and us.
You can count on it.
If they “don’t know what they are doing” then they can’t have the faith. Then it follows that they cannot be considered Catholics in the first place.
Quite idiotic.
I have a very strong suspicion that the deal between the SSPX and Rome is already done. It’s evident in every aspect of their organization. Modernist ideas and people are creeping in and it’s almost completely unnoticed by the clueless faithful who take what they have for granted but do not see or seem to care what is happening around them. Case in point: the Angelus Press Conference.
Dear my2cents,
The so called, “SSPX”, is simply Lucifer’s, “pious deception”, while the, “N.O.”, remains the, “profane deception”, both false as the root of their tree is the false church. Our Blessed Jesus the Christ commanded that an evil tree cannot bear good fruit, just as a good tree cannot bear evil fruit. You will know them by their fruits. The root of the tree can never change, as our Blessed Lord did not allow for exception in His command, as the only distinction was, “good”, and “evil”. Amen. Never forget the most important law of metaphysics, the law of, “non-contradiction”, as given Holy Church by the Angelic Doctor, and as in accordance with Popes Leo XIII and Saint Pius X, no other philosophical method can be used by the Church. The false church as the church of Antichrist, masquerading as the Catholic Church, cannot both be a masquerade and be the Catholic Church, at the same time, and under the same respect of what the Catholic Church is in truth and not in deception. The fools like Barnhardt who posit claims like, “the false church and the Catholic Church share the same juridical space”, deny the law of non-contradiction, and they don’t even know that they do. There is no such being as, “juridical space”, as it is a false premise then. The power of Jurisdiction belongs exclusively, as only to Blessed Peter in his Successors. No Vicar of Christ, no power of Jurisdiction. Period and end. I pray this helps. In caritas.
Why is the SSPX being subjective and assuming the NO types do not know what they are doing? Objectively is does not matter why someone does something or not. The Church always judged the external actions. Externally the NO is heretical.
Hello james__o,
The sorrowful as utter reality, as it is though, and of course, is that he who professes Jorge Mario Bergoglio, who in truth is not even a priest yet alone a Catholic priest, as he received his, “unholy orders”, from within the false church of Antichrist, to be the Vicar of Christ, simply is not as he cannot be, “Catholic”, anymore than a protestant is Catholic. Amen. Firstly, he must enter the Catholic Church, through each his own, willful assent. Amen. In caritas.
Ah yes, the so-called naive hierarchy. Please. Are these people that stupid?
Yes for sure. Maybe I should have said “all those who seek to be Catholic”.
I mean, in an age of fraud, one must put quotes around every second word. Especially “Catholic”.
Dear IC–I read your response because it was addressed to me. I don’t think the SSPX started out evil. Something happened that took them off course. To be honest, I think much of what you say goes over my head. However, I do thank you for taking the time to respond. God bless.
It is now hitting critical mass. Support for the SSPX is beginning to collapse as the leadership has abandoned its mission to declare Rome has lost the Faith. After much soul searching, my only option has been to recognise the validity of the sedevacantist position. The defenders of the recognise and resist idea are blind to the reality that from Roncalli onward the See of Peter has been vacant.
There may come, a time, God willing, when validly ordained bishops who recognise the false counterfeit cult now in control of the Vatican will assert their authority and assemble in conclave to elect a true pope.
Thank God for that. There is no precedent in the history of the Church to support the R&R fraud.
We can go along with heretics, if we “resist” them?!
We know because the person who threw the idols in the river genuflected to the tabernacle in the Church, that he was not a Sedevacantist, which has the Sedevacantists baffled as to where his grace to do that came from! In hind sight, Mr. Matt should have called on all tribes of tradition to get ready to write letters of formal condemnation of this “abominable impiety” to the Vatican and both bishops in white, rather then engage in his “unite the tribes” which he could neither define or was willing to act upon, in holding grudges against certain tribes of tradition himself. The conservatives prophesied the schism in the Church would go formal. Mr. Verrecchio knew that it’s going to take more than obedience to heretics, and silence for that to occur! Can all traditional tribes or any traditional tribe, please show the conservatives how to condemn and properly respond to “abominable impiety” in the Holy See of Peter?
Good Friday morning Dear Tony,
You bear witness to the reality, as it is, truth thus, as you write this:
“After much soul searching, my only option has been to recognise the validity of the sedevacantist position. The defenders of the recognise and resist idea are blind to the reality that from Roncalli onward the See of Peter has been vacant.”
Remember dear Tony, we perfectly miserable creatures do not create the, “reality as it is”, rather by the reception of the grace of God alone, our intellects can properly conform to it, as a perfectly fitting glove does, to the hand that it was custom made to conform to, if you will recognize the profane analogy. My hunch is that you’ve suffered much personally to arrive at this conclusion. Amen. You see, the so called, “recognize and resist”, cadre of non-Catholic charlatans, ultimately know, some of them anyway, that without claiming that the Papacy is occupied, they loose their total masque of deception, as it is then unveiled for the lie that it is. No Pope, no Jurisdiction. No Jurisdiction, no visible Church demonstrated by the, “Unity of Communion”, as Pope Leo XIII codified it infallibly in, “Satis Cognitum”, Amen. But as Pope Leo XIII also codified infallibly there, the Church is also visible in Her, “Unity of Faith”, that bond that is visible between all those who truly hold the divine and Catholic Faith; even as when the Shepherd is struck, the sheep will be scattered, as the divine command of our Lord Jesus the Christ. Amen.
Know that the so called, “Sedevacante”, position, in truth as in reality as it is, is simply knowing as any true Catholic must, that the See of Peter is vacant. Amen. Lucifer then, through his useful slaves, inverts this reality as it is, and posits a false belief that without a Pope for 61 years and 16 days now, you can still have his Jurisdictional power in the world. This is the, “Cheshire Cat”, stuff of, “Alice in Wonderland”, only it is damning souls. As in the novel, when the cat leaves the room, his smile remains. Analogically then, when the true Vicar of Christ is gone from this world for 61 years, Apostolic Succession being truly as forever lost then, as we live now the time of the desolation after Antichrist, all but all of those who recognize the 61 year absence of the true Vicar of Christ, want you to believe that the Jurisdictional Authority of Blessed Peter in his Successors, yet remains in this world. This is just as absurd as the, “cat has left the room but his smile remains”. No true Vicar of Christ, no Jurisdictional Authority, as it left the world with the death of Pope Pius XII, the Angelic Pastor. Amen. This is perfect contradiction, to suggest that Jurisdiction remains in this world when the Vicar of Christ is gone, which places an affront to the law of non-contradiction thus. Period and end. And again, to utterly demonstrate the right reason, just as you cannot have the cat’s smile in the room when the cat is gone, you simply cannot have the Jurisdictional Authority of Blessed Peter in his Successors left in the world when the Vicar of Christ is absent. This is the infallible teaching of the holy Magisterium, which when rejected, each and every person who holds that rejection simply cannot simultaneously hold the divine and Catholic Faith. Amen. Alleluia. This too is infallible Magisterial teaching. Any singular rejection of infallible teaching, the Catholic Faith cannot then be held by that person. Amen.
Find here a quote of Pope Pius XII in his infallible Apostolic Constitution, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, of 1945:
“Therefore, We declare invalid and void any power or jurisdiction
pertaining to the Roman Pontiff in his lifetime, which the assembly of Cardinals might decide to
exercise (while the Church is without a Pope), except to the extent to which it be expressly
permitted in this Our Constitution.
2. Likewise we command that the Sacred College of Cardinals shall not have the power to
make a determination in any way it pleases concerning the rights of the Apostolic See and of the
Roman Church, nor attempt in any way to subtract directly or indirectly from the rights of the
same on the pretext of a relaxation of attention or by the concealment of actions perpetrated
against these same rights even after the death of the Pontiff or in the period of the vacancy. On
the contrary, We desire that the College ought to watch over and defend these rights during the
contention of all influential forces.
I pray this helps. God bless and keep you and yours’ Tony. In caritas.
If there is no jurisdiction when there is no Pope, then what happened during the hundreds of interregnums of the past? Masses were still said everyday and sins continued to be absolved during the interregnums. There were even Bishops ordained during some of the longer interregnums. How did all that happen if all the clerics lacked jurisdiction?
Good morning In Caritas,
If you would please pardon my ignorance, I would like to know what the stance of the sedevacantist is on ecclesia supplet? Is this principle applied to the sacraments administered by your priests and bishops? Also, do you think there are any validly ordained Society priests?
Thank you and may God bless you.
Dear Tom A,
I am sure that IC will respond, but just a note: this is not an interregnum. As Jesus Christ lamented, we can predict the weather but can we not see the signs of the times? If we are paying attention and notice the state of the world (transgenderism, a child at the age of 7 being subjected to a possible “sex change”, LGBTQ agendas being pushed, talk of computers being able to upload our brains or download into them, the utter complete loss of Christian society, the breakdown of the family, rampant pedophilia, abortion, anarchy, lawlessness, the total rejection of God by peoples, countries and governments, the false church and its faithless hierarchy in Rome*, the return to paganism, etc etc ad nauseaum), then we should be able to see that we are not in “usual” times. What times are these then, exactly? That being said, only God can gives us the eyes to see and restore sight to the blind. We must first repent of our own pride and sins, ask Him for mercy and then He will do so.
You can bet that they’ll be back in place with armed guards, courtesy of Pope Martin Luther.
There is no sedevacantist stance on ecclesia supplet. There is only a Catholic stance on ecclesia supplet.
Is this the Abomination of Desolation because it is not an interregnum?
If the Church is in eclipse, where is She? We know the gates of hell won’t prevail against Her, so where is She?
Are there any valid priests saying valid Masses anywhere in this world?
Bergoglio is having them put up in St. Peter’s this Sunday.
Hello Georgianne,
An eclipse is when one heavenly body obscures or hides another by moving in front of it. The Church is hidden at this time, covered up if high will by the dark, false church of the Antichrist, living in the hearts of all true Catholics of good will who possess the Suoernatural Gift of Faith. I can only hope that I am one of them (the elect), and I can only hope that I will save my soul.
If you read carefully what IC has above in his reply (the infallible Papal document), you will see that there can be no valid Masses that we know of at this time on earth. Per Sacred Scrioture, the Abomination lasts unto the end.
It is my personal opinion that we missed the proverbial boat on any “restoration”, in that the 3rd Secret of Fatima was not revealed and the Consecration was not done in a timely fashion. Our Lady was trying to avert exactly what has happened since 1958. Had these things been done as requested by 1960, there would have been a great battle and the time of the Antichrist delayed would have been delayed.
Correction: “covered up if YOU will”.
ASB, but the principle must still apply. Do clerics lose jurisdiction when there is no Pope? IC says yes, but history says no. Interregnums were times with no Pope, and now is a time with no Pope. Is it a dogmatic fact that this time is not an interregnum and therefore different rules on jurisdiction apply? There may never be another Pope again, that is a possibility. Only the True Church can properly interpret Scripture to tell us what actual times we live in, not IC and his version of prophecy. He may be right, but then again he may be wrong.
A Simple Beggar
Does the Church not supply jurisdiction at this time because she is in eclipse and cannot?
With the Church in eclipse, how do we know if IC is correct?
Hi Tom A,
But this isn’t his interpretation. I’m finished with following the opinions of men. In fact, I came to my position prior to the time IC did (just saying due to what you are implying).
The Church and Popes have spoken. Without a Pope there is no jurisdiction. Lefebvre and Thuc were apostates, both having publicly assented to a false Pope as Pope and either being part of the N.O. or signing the Vat II documents. They were outside the Church. There’s no Apostolic Succession coming from those men. They had no office nor power to consecrate new bishops. Any and all priests who went along with Vatican II were ipso facto themselves outside the Church. The new rite of ordination is invalid. Thus, the Sacrifice has failed. The Scriptures tell us that this abomination of desolation will continue to the end of ends. If this is the “end of ends” as Our Lady of LaSalette even stated, then how can this be an interregnum? Why else is the world in such utter depravity? There is no Mass at this point that we know of on the face of the earth, and of there is, it’s being said privately by some hidden and very, very old priests and/or possibly bishops WHO NEVER APOSTATIZED even for a moment.
However, for those who buy the lie and trap that there is supplied jurisdiction in a state of emergency (there is not – I looked and looked), they won’t see this because they MUST have their “Sacraments” at any cost, as if God can’t provide where something is not possible.
There’s really not much more that can be said. All of the proof has been provided in this comment section over time, but it can be hard to “see” if you don’t want (will) to see.
P.S. When I say no Mass I speak of no PUBLIC Mass. There were hidden Masses being said by non-apostate, enlightened priests at least for a time throughout and following Vat II, but as to whether there are any such priests left as in still living we do not know. We do know, however, that God gave man “120 years” after the flood, so it isn’t impossible.
Dear Catherine Sarto and Tom A,
In the sense of what Tom A lastly wrote in response to you, Catherine, it could not possibly matter what this sect says nor that sect, etc. The reality, as it actually is, rests in the truth that none of these sects are the Catholic sect, and as thus they are outside the Church, where no salvation is to be found, deFide. Amen. This so called, “Sedevacantism”, is simply another Luciferian twist, another would be, “pious deception”, yet deception nonetheless. Amen. Tom A speaks as the Church would speak here, when he wrote, “There is only a Catholic stance on ecclesia supplet.”.
Tom A, as ASB wrote you above, “this is not an interregnum”. There cannot be an interregnum when Apostolic Succession is lost to the world. By definition, an, “interregnum”, is that time awaiting the canonically valid election of the next Vicar of Christ in this world. You simply cannot have a, “canonically valid”, election when you’ve lost Apostolic Succession. Some of the Supreme Apostolic requirements, as to be found in the infallible Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius XII, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, are found in the following quote of same:
“3. The laws issued by Roman Pontiffs in no way can be corrected or changed by the
assembly of Cardinals of the Roman Church while it is without a Pope, nor can anything be
subtracted from them or added or dispensed in any way whatsoever with respect to said laws or
any part of them. This prohibition is especially
applicable in the case of Pontifical Constitutions issued to regulate the business of the election of
the Roman Pontiff. 4 In truth, if anything adverse to this command should
by chance happen to come about or be attempted, We declare it, by Our Supreme Authority, to
be null and void.”
The Supreme Apostolic Authority of Pope Pious XII as understood in paragraphs 3 and 4 of Title One, Chapter One of, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, now understood as copied and pasted above, find here now under Title Two, Chapter One, paragraph 37:
“37. We order also that, when it happens that the Pontiff leaves this life, the Cardinals who are
present are required to wait for fifteen full days only; in spite of this requirement, the power is
granted to the Sacred College of Cardinals to postpone entry into the Conclave even for another
two or three days; nevertheless, the rule is that after eighteen days at the most have elapsed on
which the funeral rites of the deceased Pontiff are celebrated, the Cardinals, in whatever number
are there present, must immediately enter the Conclave and proceed to the business of election.”
You see Tom A, in order to follow as precisely the Supreme Apostolic Authority of Pope Pius XII, as it relates to the time of actual, “interregnum”, the College of Cardinals would have had to meet to validly as canonically elect and in accordance with Pope Pius XII Apostolic Constitution on Election Law for the Pontiff, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, no more than 18 days after the death of the last true Vicar of Christ in this world, that there will ever be, as Pope Pius XII. Amen. There is absolutely not one iota of, “wiggle room”, left in this expression of, Pope Pious XII’s Supreme Apostolic Authority, as offered in, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”. Almighty God’s infinite Providence providing for His true children in this time. Amen. Alleluia.
Remember, where no distinction is made, no exception can be had. He declared the rule as follows and again:
“…the rule is that after eighteen days at the most have elapsed on
which the funeral rites of the deceased Pontiff are celebrated…” and then went on to declare as Authoritatively: “…the Cardinals, in whatever number
are there present, must immediately enter the Conclave and proceed to the business of election.”
As you see, there could have been 2 Cardinals present and the election would have had to take place, because he commanded it thus. Amen. He commanded that, “…the Cardinals in WHATEVER NUMBER ARE THERE PRESENT…” . And then went on to command:
MUST IMMEDIATELY ENTER THE CONCLAVE and proceed to the BUSINESS OF ELECTION. Amen.
Remember Tom A, he commanded that any change whatsoever, made to his election law by any or all of the Cardinals, was to be considered as to be, “NULL AND VOID”, which means as if it NEVER OCCURRED. Amen. And further Tom A, if you or I, or anyone, as all those ever again to live on this earth unto the Second Coming of The Christ, reject any aspect of this Apostolic Authority of the last true Vicar of Christ on this earth, as to reject any of the holy Magisterium thus, that person or persons as potentially every person yet to live, simply cannot be Catholic, as they willfully assent to the rejection of the Apostolic Authority of the Church, then in schism and also in heresy, and in this time, apostasy. Amen. Alleluia. I do pray this helps. God bless you. In caritas.
In Caritas,
Did someone teach you all of this?
If not, how did you figure it out?
Why is it that nobody knows what you know?
When was Apostolic Succession lost?
Why was John XXIII’s election invalid?
(please pardon the newbie questions, but I’m trying to understand)
IC and/or ASB, Eastern schismatics lacked jurisdiction, but did not the Church recognize their clearly illicit orders as valid?
A Simple Beggar,
How is it that you and In Caritas know all of this? Did you figure it out or were you taught by someone?
I’m here with my jaw on the floor because if this stuff is true, then it is huge.
If this is all true, then there is no Mass, so what do we do on Sundays and Holy Days?
Have you heard that Jesus told Berthe Petit in 1940 that “Recourse to my Mother under the title I wish for her universally, (Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary) is the last help I shall give before the end of time”?
Putting that with Fatima, La Sallette, etc., and what you and In Caritas are saying is, I think, connecting some dots.
Dear Georgianne,
Without going into too much detail here, it began with my quest for valid and licit Sacraments after having come to the conclusion that whatever was occupying Rome was not the Catholic Church (step 1). However, I knew I darn well needed to do my homework before settling on any particular sect and took this extremely seriously (step 2). It was a time of extreme agony. Once I discovered all that had been “hidden” from us – all of the PRE-Vatican II Papal & Magisterial documents, Canon law, etc. etc. which IC cites here often – I was astounded and said here are the answers; they’ve been right here the whole time. Anyone who says you need a degree in theology or even metaphysics to understand them, or a churchman to explain them to you and interpret them for you is a liar. They were written for the flock – all of the flock. We also have the actual Douay Rheims bible of 1582 and its annotations. When you read them you can see why it, too, has been suppressed. Prior to this time I had been relying on myself and the opinions of others for the answers. Upon these “discoveries” I literally sat down one day and said to myself with a feeling of utter desolation, “I knew nothing…I know nothing.” I surrendered it all to God, and began literally begging Him for the Truth (oddly enough this was well after I created my name here), and told Him that I’d rather DIE than to commit idolatry with a piece of bread (because of the lack of transubstantiation) and I meant it! More and more agony and more and more studying, and begging and pleading . I looked at just about every position there is and one by one rejected each “sect”, lastly the Siri people and then MHFM. I knew I settled upon Truth when at last I had peace and moral certitude. I never had that before, Georgianne, only contradictions, doubts and unanswered questions, especially in the R&R position. Something was very wrong and I knew it but I never really asked God to help me. In my pride I was trying to figure it out for myself and this was a very important “epiphany” for me. If I had stayed put in my “comfort zone” I would have most definitely found myself in hell over it one sorry day (amongst all the other things for which I already deserve hell).
That being said, there are other people out there who hold this (most unpopular and costly) position and who have done this work and who try to help others. I am forever indebted to them, however only God can remove blindness and it requires that we first be of good will and then properly disposed and ready to receive the Truth. I would say to begin by reading the documents that IC is constantly citing and quoting, and start a Novena.
One last thing along the lines of what you mentioned. Read or re-read the Fr. Fuentes interview of Sr. Lucia on Dec 26, 1957. This was 10 months TO THE DAY prior to the white smoke at the Conclave on October 26, 1958. That white smoke soon turned black on that day, and then (white smoke again) the usurper John XXIII was “elected” two days later on the 28th. Read that interview now and look at it from the perspective that Sr. Lucy is not speaking of events in the future, as well all have tended to do, but events which have ALREADY occurred, as well as the emphasis on the “fall of the (REAL) clergy”, and the role of the Rosary and devotion to her Immaculate Heart in these times. Dots and then more dots indeed.
May God bless and keep you, Georgianne.
Good early Saturday morning Tom A,
I implore your focus on the four infallible Magisterial teachings as already sited here again and again as, “VAS”, “Satis Cognitum”, “Ad Apostolorum Principus”, and “Cum Ex….”. Amen. You already know that, “Ad Apostolorum Principus”, acknowledged the validity of the illicit consecrations that were accomplished without Papal mandate. This understood, both the consecrator and the consecrated lost the Catholic Faith by specialissimo modo excommunication of the Apostolic See. Thus, everyone who would ever and again receive the Sacraments from these men would spend their eternities in Hell, for the mortal sin of sacrilege, as they should have known, thus their lack of knowing could not save them, and without exception in the external forum. Amen. Lucifer will dangle you on the end of his yo-yo string if you do not focus on the Magisterial as Authoritative teaching, which Almighty God in His Providence gave us for this time. Amen.
Lastly for now Tom A, the difference between the Orthodox then and the Universal Church now and since Oct, 1958, is the utter and complete absence of Jurisdictional Authority that must and can only accompany the loss of Apostolic Succession. Amen. The Orthodox lost Apostolic Succession when the Universal Church did, as those schismatical heretics are no exception, as there is no distinction given and of course, with the loss of Apostolic Succession. No Pope, no Apostolic Succession, no Jurisdictional power, no Bishops (valid or licit now as per, “Cum Ex…” and “VAS”), no priests, no Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Thus we know with apodictic certitude that we now live the time of the prophecy of Daniel, as inerrantly given by the Early Church Fathers as in unanimity, when they inerrantly proclaimed that Daniel warned us of the prophetic time that would come to pass, and only in its time, when the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass would be lost to the world, and that this would be (and again without distinction, thus without exception), the time of the person of Antichrist. Amen. Alleluia. I continue to pray that you are helped. In caritas.
Dearest georgianne,
You seem very sincere. Please follow A Simple Beggar’s advice. This path is unique in its utter suffering but while suffering in love, for all those who truly see. God in His infinite mercy allows the intellective lights to see, and of course He actively wills all, as everyone who lived, lives, or will live, since Oct, 1958, and unto the consummation of the world, now at hand, to see. Amen. Alleluia. For me, a 12 year journey and counting. Amen. Simply know that anyone who truly holds the Catholic Faith will see, as Almighty God commands it to be, as, “Seek the Truth and you shall find it.” It requires a true as filial love of the Blessed Virgin Mother of God, and a deeply devotional assent to her most beautiful as powerful prayer, the Holy Rosary. Amen. Alleluia. Beg her to take you into her Immaculate Heart, such that she can carry you unto her Sacred Heart, our Blessed Jesus the Christ, true God and true Man, the Redeemer and King of the cosmos He created and sustains. Amen. Alleluia. God bless and keep you. In caritas.
If no Mass existed, the gates of Hell would have prevailed, making Christ out to be a liar. It would also mean the immediate end of the world as there would no longer be anything to appease God’s wrath.
Tony, that is an assertion that is not backed up by anything magisterial. It is simply your interpretation of what Christ meant by “gates of hell prevailing.” Hell will never win over God even if it appears that it has. Things can get extremely bleak here on Earth. You cannot use that argument to justify an heretical pope. While I do not agree with IC and ASB on there being no more valid masses on earth right now, the possibility of there being no more valid masses on earth is not outside the realm of possibilities. There would be no contradiction with Church teaching if the mass ceased and apostolic succession ceased. I just do not think IC/ASB have made their case that we are in those times. Maybe we are, maybe we are not. There may be a restoration. At some point it will be as bleak as IC/ASB claims, just before the Second Coming. We should make preparations and keep our lamps lit.
Good Saturday morning Tony,
You must know the teaching of the Early Church Fathers which requires the assent of Faith. Denying their teaching in unanimity on Biblical prophesy is a denial of the divine and Catholic Faith, which is Magisterial teaching. Your lack of understanding does not, as it cannot, remedy the defect in your faith. The prophet Daniel, in 9:27 for instance, Douay-Rheims copy, commands the following:
“And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fail: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.”
The Early Church Fathers interpreted this prophetic Scripture from Daniel, as in unanimity, to mean that the prophetic time would come to pass and only in its time, when the spotless Lamb of God, the Victim, would fail and this would be the loss of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass from the face of the earth. Further, they proclaimed, that when the Mass was gone from the face of the earth, this would be the time of the reign of Antichrist, followed by his desolation unto the Last Day. Amen. In other words, once gone, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass would not be restored, as there would be no Apostolic Succession remaining, to supply a Vicar of Christ, to restore the Sacrifice. Amen. If you deny this teaching Tony, you cannot at once hold the divine and Catholic Faith, as from the Supreme Apostolic Authority of the Holy Magisterium. Amen. This is the divine and Catholic Faith, outside of which there simply is no salvation, deFide. Amen.
You must first come to know and then freely assent to the reality as it is, truth thus Tony, that it is infallible Apostolic teaching that aspects of the visible Church can and have failed, while the Church as a whole prevails unto the Last Day. Amen. Find now copied and pasted this command of such in, “Satis Cognitum”, paragraph 15, from the holy Vicar of Christ, Leo XIII:
” For it is the nature and object of a foundation to support the unity of the whole edifice and to give stability to it, rather than to each component part; and in the present case this is much more applicable, since Christ the Lord wished that by the strength and solidity of the foundation the gates of hell should be prevented from prevailing against the Church. All are agreed that the divine promise must be understood of the Church as a whole, and not of any certain portions of it. These can indeed be overcome by the assaults of the powers of hell, as in point of fact has befallen some of them.”
God bless and keep you Tony. In caritas
“Things can get extremely bleak here on Earth.”
They certainly have seemed so to me, Tom A. I’ve got to remember that’s just a test of my faith, and that just around the corner is bliss.
IC, the sede clergy claim they have supplied jurisdiction due to the supreme law of the Church, salvation of souls. You claim they do not. That is the basic difference and I leave it up to every one seeking the Catholic Faith to research the teachings of the Catholic Church and follow what the Church teaches. But without a Pope or any clergy with powers to bind, I cannot see how any individual can be held guilty in the eyes of God if their interpretation is different from yours. I know there are sedes who condemn the home aloners. I am not one of them. We are governed now solely by Divine Law, there is no authority on earth to enforce or dispense with Canon Law that I can point towards. I write this not to convince you, your mind is made up. There are many other souls who are just waking up to the fact that Bergoglio cannot be Pope. They have to find their own way since neither you or I or any resistance or sede bishop or priest can bind them. Your position does not contradict authentic Catholic teaching but it is not the only scenario that one can arrive at that does not contradict Catholic teaching.
Hello again Tom A,
Simply a point of clarity. Always remember, as the Angelic Doctor taught, it cannot matter what you think, as I think, or any other perfectly miserable human creature, “thinks”, as immanently understood. Amen. All that matters, precious all, is that what the human person’s intellect conforms to is indeed, “reality as it is”, which Saint Thomas Aquinas taught, “is truth”. All the rest is human opinion based in conjecture and simply deception, particularly as it pertains to matters deFide. As ASB recently wrote, she’s done with considering, “opinions of men”. Prophetic things have occurred Tom A, thus fulfilling the prophecy as it is, thus truth. Once fulfilled and of course, prophesy cannot be fulfilled again. No where is there any Church teaching that Apostolic Succession would be lost but for the time of Antichrist, which is concurrent with the time of the loss of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Those two realities CANNOT be separated one from the other, as it is definitive teaching of the Fathers in unanimity. Amen. It cannot now be argued to the contrary, that Apostolic Succession is now gone from the face of the earth, as to do so denies the Authoritative teaching of Pius XII, in his Apostolic Constitution, which pertains to the election of the Vicar of Christ, defining the period of true, “interregnum”, thus. He made the specific point that it is especially true that nothing can be altered in Apostolic as Magisterial teaching, which applies to the election of the next Vicar of Christ. Amen. Read, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis” (VAS), very carefully again and again, begging the Blessed Virgin for the light of Faith. There were a maximum of 18 days given to accomplish this after October 9, 1958. Period and end. Another point of fact, regarding the illegitimacy of so called, “John XIII”, in truth a false pope of the church of Antichrist, is that he was purportedly, “elected”, 19 days after the death of Pope Pius XII on October 28, 1958, placing an affront to Pope Pius XII’s Authoritative Papal election law, which he commanded with all of his Apostolic power, could not be altered, as in one iota. Amen. God bless and keep you Tom A. In caritas.
Dear Tom A,
Please read my response, to your response, to Tony below. We are bound by Magisterial teaching unto the Last Day. To deny this, denies the Apostolic Authority of Blessed Peter in his Successor, as Pope Pius XII, in, “VAS”, thus the one who denies, simply cannot hold the Catholic Faith, deFide. He commanded there that all things which pertain to the Vicar of Christ while alive on this earth, continue indefinitely, and only can be once and again performed by the next Vicar of Christ, should there be one. Amen. As it relates Church Law, he commanded that nothing could be touched in any way by anyone or any number of persons. Period and end. This is Authoritative as definite thus. God does not abandon His Church. We are bound by him, Tom A. Your inability thus far to see this is not a remedy to excuse you, as you must receive the light of Faith to know this, as did this perfectly miserable wretch now writing to you. Amen. The witness of your writing suggests that you are heading in the direction of truth, Tom A. Continue man, continue, as utterly painful as it indeed is, always knowing the infinite mercy of Jesus the Christ, in His infinite Beatitude. Amen. Alleluia. Remember, this has nothing immanently to do with you or me. It is Truth we seek, only Truth. God bless and keep you. In caritas.
ps. Remember and again, it simply CANNOT matter what the so called, “sede clergy”, opine, as what they opine places an affront to Magisterial teaching. And again analogically Tom A. You simply cannot offer the water in your cup that IS NOT THERE. Read also, “Satis Cognitum”, again and again. Pope Leo XIII Authoritatively teaches there that NO ONE, as not any single Bishop, nor the entire Episcopacy, has anything nor could have anything as, “gift”, given exclusively to Blessed Peter in his Successors. Amen. The Jurisdictional power, as the, “keys”, were only given to Blessed Peter. Without him present on the earth, the cup of water is empty. There is no supplied Jurisdiction, when there simply is no Jurisdiction to supply. Suggesting otherwise, is to hold an immanent contradiction to the holy Faith. Amen. The reality of supplied Jurisdiction is only reality as it is, truth thus, when the Vicar of Christ is present on the earth. This is definitive Catholic teaching. Denying this, then denies Pope Leo XIII in his Apostolic Authority. One who does this cannot at once hold the divine and Catholic Faith, deFide.
IC, the problem I have with your position is that you correctly state that is does not matter what you or I opine, only what Holy Mother Church teaches. On that we all agree. But then you go on to opine your interpretation of magisterial documents. I have read over and over the very documents you cited and come up with a different conclusion. Who is right? There is no Pope to decide at the moment. The difference is that I do not condemn you for reaching your conclusion, but you seem to condemn me and others for reaching our conclusions. Personally, the only conclusion that we can draw with certitude from this mess is that the V2 NO sect that occupies Rome and our once Holy places of worship are not and cannot be the Catholic Church and since they are not the Catholic Church they must be avoided. But though it seems we are abandoned and alone, we are not, for we preserve the Faith in our intellects and therefore in some mystical way preserve the Church. Christ will never abandon those who hold the Faith unblemished.
Hello again Tom A,
Lastly for now, it is not I who condemn anyone, as I have no power and of course, to do so. It is the Universal and Ordinary Magisterium which places Judgment. Amen. Again, the holy Magisterium has spoken. This is Blessed Peter in his Successors teaching the Universal Church, not just the prelates, the clergy, the theologians, but also the laity, Tom A. To suggest otherwise is contrary to definitive as Authoritative Catholic teaching. No where does Holy Mother the Church teach that the Magisterium must be, “interpreted”, by the very, “Interpreter”, such that the Universal Church can understand what has already been posited by the Vicar of Christ as, “Interpreter”, for the Church’s understanding. This is itself an absurdity and yet another, diabolical twist posited by the church of Antichrist to deceive. Amen. Think about what you posit here. The Vicar of Christ teaches and commands in the Universal and Ordinary Magisterium. You now suggest that what he teaches and commands to the Universal Church, as all who hold the divine and Catholic Faith, in the Magisterium, he must somehow now, “interpret”, for the Faithful. His definitive teaching is his definitive teaching. That is a contradiction in terms. He has taught, then you suggest that he must somehow teach again, what he has already taught, by virtue of, “interpreting”, what he taught. Again, Almighty God does not as He cannot abandon His Church, as He alone commanded such. Amen. The Church is not now preserved in a, “mystical way”, as you opine. It is objectively preserved as Pope Leo XIII definitively taught in, “Satis Cognitum”, as the two visible features of the Church are the, “Unity of Faith”, and the, “Unity of Communion”, the later being what the Vicar of Christ holds, which is now lost since Pope Pius XII’s death. Amen.
I get it!
This is the only thing left in the world that makes sense.
I thank the Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary for helping me through the posts of In Caritas and Simple Beggar.
It sure does, doesn’t it?
You might find this helpful, and you may want to start by reading the letter toward the end written by a French priest, Fr. Demaris, during the French Revolution. They like to call Vat II “the French Revolution in the Church”, while being completely blind to all of what that really means:
http://jmjsite.com/thetruechurch-jmjsite.pdf
I note the striking difference between the documents which the Vatican issued prior to Vatican II and those which followed that “council.” The former are expressions of truth clearly and succinctly conveyed to the faithful. One does not scratch one’s head in wonderment of what is being said in those documents.
The latter, on the other hand, are snake-winding specimens of prolix double speak and obfuscation—in short, deliberate attempts to deceive.
I have to agree with In caritas (not to put words in his mouth, here) that one of average intelligence does not need an interpreter to understand pre-VII documents issued by valid successors of Pope St. Peter. I also agree with Tom A (and not to put words in HIS mouth) that there is no “court of last resort” in these (last?) days.
Thank you A Simple Beggar and In Caritas for your search for and your witness to eternal Truth.
While it has been very hard and painful to arrive at your principal conclusion, there has been consolation and peace and hope when I eventually got there.
“Lord that I may see” (Luke 18:41)
“I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.” (Matthew 28;20)
“I know there are sedes who condemn the home aloners.”
Tom, I know of no sede that “condemns” home aloners. Only home-aloners tend to “condemn” other sedes/non-sedes…saying it is the Church that condemns them of course. Are you sure you wish to align yourself with that?
I’m with you 2Vt, but I have been in conversations with sedes who condemn home aloners . I am not aligning myself with IC and ASB. IC seems to think he can claim when certain prophecies have been fulfilled and what that means according to Canon Law. He makes assertions that are only backed up based in his opinion of the meaning of papal teachings. He puts ecclesial law on the same level as Divine Law and says that those who are not blessed to understand it his way are somehow unfaithful Catholics. But when it comes to the obvious contradictions inherent in the new fake church he is correct. And that is what makes his argument seem authoritative. He utters many things that are true and then sneaks in an unproven assertion that the reader is prone to accept also as true.
“He puts ecclesial law on the same level as Divine Law and says that those who are not blessed to understand it his way are somehow unfaithful Catholics. ”
Are you sure that’s all he is saying Tom? It sounds to me that he is saying that they aren’t even Catholic, and therefore outside of the Church.
2Vermont, no one has condemned you.
Your statement reminds me of a conversation I recently had with an atheist/apostate – he accused me of saying that the Catholic Faith was true and thereby condemning the Protestants all the other other “religions”.
Keep asking God to show you the Truth whatever the cost. Keep praying “Lord that I may see – Domine, ut videam”.
Ursula, your analogy doesn’t even come close.
Thats my point IC, there is no interpretation possible because we have no Pope at the moment to settle any questions. So you can reach your conclusion and I can reach mine. Until there is a Pope, we just have to agree to disagree.
Tom,
We are at the end of time. How exactly will we get a Pope? What transpired immediately after the death of Pope Pius XII? His Magisterial instructions thus STAND and require no further interpretation. We must obey like good little children of Holy Mother Church. There is no other way to go, and as In caritas has said I believe, time is of the essence here. Begin a novena to St. Joseph and ask him to help you; to let you know if you are right or you are wrong.
I would just like to point out that if “one of average intelligence does not need an interpreter to understand pre-VII documents issued by valid successors of Pope St. Peter”, that they would be of themselves the “court of last resort”. The answers are all there.
Thank God.
There are thousands of scenarios I could come up with where a Pope could be restored. You seem to say that a restoration is impossible. It is not impossible. It may never happen, I will grant you that. But it is not impossible. Nothing is impossible for God.
Our Lady of LaSalette stated that this is the “end of ends”, and Our Lady of Fatima’s requests went unheeded. Sr. Lucia warned of “imminent” chastisement and the fall of the clergy 10 months prior to the chaos at the Conclave of 1958. Usurper John XXIIi (taking the name of an antipope) wasted no time in announcing the “2nd Vatican Council” in January of 1959, 75 years after the vision of Pope Leo XIII, where Satan was granted “75-100 years to “destroy the Church”. Our Lord responded that he would have the time and “do with THEM what you will,” Not one Sacrament was left untouched. It was a totally novel, false church that was born. Now we have Bergoglio and are about to witness idolatry above St. Peter’s tomb. What more evidence that these are the last days do you need, Tom? No disrespect meant here at all, Tom, but does this frighten you, perhaps? Not that it isn’t frightening indeed but why are you, to some degree, sticking your head in the sand?
Also, the authoritive pre-Vat II Church documents are all and were of themselves “interpretations” and “explanations/clarifications” of Catholic teaching for the edification of the Church. They were purposely worded carefully.
Are we now going to ask for another interpretation of their interpretation? Or maybe if that isn’t quite clear enough, we could ask for an interpretation of an interpretation and another interpretation of that? How could anyone EVER be sure of anything?
I don’t think so.
Here here! Good point.
La Salette, like Fatima is a private revelation. The Church says we can accept the apparitions as valid. But the Church does not add whatever message that was supposedly given to the deposit of faith. All revelations having ceased with the passing of the last Apostle. We are in end times, but exactly where and exactly how it will play out are TBD by God. Neither you nor IC nor I, know how.
Just focus on the substance of their argument.
Yes it does sound like he is saying that. Its so hard to figure out what he really means half the time. He is basically telling us that if you do not stay home on Sunday then your outside the Church. He is also saying that if you do not agree with his take on end times prophecy, then you are outside the Church. He thinks he has it all figured out. But his position on the end times may be correct and his decision to stay home on Sunday’s can not be adequately refuted since there is no authority to tell him he is wrong.
Dear Tom A,
LaSalette and Fatima are brought up only to help “connect the dots,” so to speak. That being said, Fatima is not in the same category as the other approved and worthy of belief (as they contain NOTHING contrary to the Faith) apparitions. I can’t recall the term and there is one for it, but basically it is one to ignore “at your own risk”.
Let’s put all the “where we are in the end times stuff” aside. We have Lefebvre and Thuc. Lefebvre very publicly committed apostasy by signing the Vat II documents. He also adhered to (worse than) false Popes by acknowledging them as Popes. Thuc went along with and was a member of the Novus Ordo sect, and thus also was an apostate. Apostates are not members of the Catholic Church. Arguments about licity and/or validity of Sacraments aside, one therefore commits Sacrilege each and every time a Sacrament is received in one of the sects coming from them.
Again all other issues aside, when I sit here and think, “Where can I go to receive Sacraments regarding which I have not one, single iota of doubt”, the answer every single time is NOWHERE. Nowhere, Tom. If there was such a place, I’d be the first in line.
You either “get it” by the Grace and mercy of God, as Georgianne said, or you don’t, and as I said for me not after reading anyone’s opinion or comment on a blog, either. I simply read some portion of the infallible Magisterial instructions which have now been shown here ad nauseaum for all to see and read. There is no need for interpretation as they are crystal clear. They are written for THE FAITHFUL, meaning not only churchmen and theologians.
There is nowhere to go at this time, whatever this time may be in reality. You can take your chances, but as for me I will not risk idolatry and sacrilege. Too much is at stake as regards eternity.
That is all.
ASB, I cannot argue with your line of reasoning even though I disagree with it. Whatever you think of Lefebrve and Thuc I think is irrelevant since they still had valid orders even if you think they apostasized. That was my argument with IC. I believe that, licitness aside, Thuc and Lefebrve still possessed the power to ordain. That is Catholic teaching on sacramental theology. Those that Thuc and Lefebrve ordain are not necessarily tainted with the heresy of the ordaining bishop. But if you think that these valid sspx and sede priests lack the proper jurisdiction to conduct Mass then I see your point to choose to stay home. I think they have supplied jurisdiction for the salvation of souls and it is not sinful to go to them for sacraments. Una Cum however is another issue that I do not want to get into.
Hi Tom,
I do follow you as to where you believe there is a breakdown or “loophole”, and was going to say more but there’s no point as it’s all been said and proven already but you choose to reject infallible Magisterial teaching and I respect your choice. I know all about the party line of “supplied jurisdiction” and it doesn’t hold any water. Please show me the Magisterial documents which prove WITHOUT A DOUBT that supplied jurisdiction exists and is applicable to this precarious situation.
Without a doubt, Tom. There can be no doubt whatsoever when it comes to the Sacraments.
Good Sunday evening Tom A,
You must understand the utter contradiction firstly, which you objectively hold, even as you begin your last response to ASB. You begin with utter contradiction, defying the Angelic Doctor’s most important law in metaphysics, that of of non-contradiction, and as Popes Leo XIII and Saint Pius X, affirmed Authoritatively as the only philosophical method which Holy Mother the Church can use, to rightly reason to Truth, with the admonition of the Pontiffs that grave error would result if his metaphysics did not underpin the theology, etc. Amen. You wrote this:
“ASB, I cannot argue with your line of reasoning even though I disagree with it.”
You obviously as objectively don’t even know what you are writing. You literally as actually deny, at the same time, that which you at once, claim to affirm. That Tom A is perfect contradiction. Yes, Tom A, that is precisely, as exactly what you did. You affirm that you, “cannot argue”, with ASB’s, “line of reasoning”, which means that you accept it as true, as you cannot posit an opposition in argument to it. If you deny it as being true, then you posit an argument in proof of your denial, while at once you actually write, “I cannot argue with” it. You affirm that you cannot deny her, “line of reasoning”, as you cannot, “argue with it.” Period and end. Again Tom A, so much is written because your internal contradiction requires very specific as very tedious movement through your error to truth. Amen. While you affirm that you, “cannot argue with…”, her, “line of reasoning”, you then actually as literally in the very same sentence deny what you just earlier claimed to affirm in the same sentence, by stating your closing as, “…even though I disagree with it”. How Tom A, can you actually write that you, “cannot deny”, what she wrote and at the same time you, “disagree with it”, which means you DENY, what she wrote? To, “deny”, is to refuse to admit the truth of a reality as it is. You Tom A say that you CANNOT
CANNOT, “argue with your line of reasoning”, which means again, that you affirm you cannot deny it and yet in the end of that sentence you do what you say you cannot do, by denying it, as by saying, “but I disagree with it”. I pray this helps. In caritas.
Okay Tom A,
It is one thing to speak in utter platitudes, meaningless rhetorical nonsense, in truth. You also wrote this to ASB:
“There are thousands of scenarios I could come up with where a Pope could be restored.”
Name one scenario Tom A, just one, and the Magisterium will condemn you. Go for it, as you claimed to be able to give, “thousands of scenarios I could come up with where a Pope could be restored.” Name JUST ONE Tom A. God have mercy on you. In caritas.
And again Tom A,
Your complete response to ASB, where you use pure platitudes, not objective as factual argument, in lieu of right reason in your attempt at argument, about the “restoration” of a Pope, is now copied and pasted here:
“There are thousands of scenarios I could come up with where a Pope could be restored. You seem to say that a restoration is impossible. It is not impossible. It may never happen, I will grant you that. But it is not impossible. Nothing is impossible for God.”
Now substantiate your rhetoric Tom A, or that is all it is, as rhetoric, that which is not rooted in objective reality as it is, thus it is pure deception. Specifically, you wrote this Tom A:
” You seem to say that a restoration is impossible. It is not impossible. It may never happen, I will grant you that. But it is not impossible.”
Now prove your conjecture that, “It is not impossible.” Demonstrate for all eyes now to see Tom A, how it is, “possible”, using your vernacular, to “restore”, Apostolic Succession, once as only and now lost to the world. Prove it Tom A. The floor is all yours. It must be proved with Magisterial teaching, as with the Supreme Apostolic power of Authority of Blessed Peter in his Successors, or what you write is simply your opinion or some other’s, all meaningless. Amen. I pray this helps. Please demonstrate for us Tom A’s version of the restoration of now forever lost, in truth, Apostolic Succession. In caritas.
And lastly for now Tom A,
Once again you actually as definitively and in the objective realm of reality, demonstrate the utter and abysmal fact that you DO NOT hold the Catholic Faith. Once and again Tom A, as this was already written out for you days ago now, you DENY the Authoritative Apostolic power of Blessed Peter in his Successor, Pope Pius XII, in his infallible Encyclical, “Ad Apostolorum Principus”, as copied again now to assist in your salvation here:
“46. “We teach, . . . We declare that the Roman Church by the Providence of God holds the primacy of ordinary power over all others, and that this power of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, which is truly episcopal, is immediate. Toward it, the pastors and the faithful of whatever rite and dignity, both individually and collectively, are bound by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, not only in matters which pertain to faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church spread throughout the whole world, in such a way that once the unity of communion and the profession of the same Faith has been preserved with the Roman Pontiff, there is one flock of the Church of Christ under one supreme shepherd. This is the teaching of the Catholic truth from which no one can depart without loss of faith and salvation.”[17]
47. From what We have said, it follows that no authority whatsoever, save that which is proper to the Supreme Pastor, can render void the canonical appointment granted to any bishop; that no person or group, whether of priests or of laymen, can claim the right of nominating bishops; that no one can lawfully confer episcopal consecration unless he has received the mandate of the Apostolic See.[18]
48. Consequently, if consecration of this kind is being done contrary to all right and law, and by this crime the unity of the Church is being seriously attacked, an excommunication reserved specialissimo modo to the Apostolic See has been established which is automatically incurred by the consecrator and by anyone who has received consecration irresponsibly conferred.[19]”
Now then Tom A, Lefebvre and Thuc were, “Excommunicated” as “Specialissimo modo”, in their very acts of, “consecrating illicitly”, and if you deny this, you cannot hold the Catholic Faith, as per then, your rejection of the Apostolic Authority of Pope Pius XII. Amen. Heresy and schism. Furthermore, any priests ordained by them are illicit firstly, as they have no Ordinary for their Jurisdiction, as their ordaining Bishops were excommunicated, losing all power of Jurisdiction. Amen. Secondly, those priests are in schism, as they accepted the Sacrament of Order from Bishops without Jurisdiction, thus denying the Apostolic Power of Jurisdiction, which rests exclusively in Blessed Peter and in his Successors, and then only through him to the Bishops in UNION with him, not in Bishops EXCOMMUNICATED, thus WITHOUT Jurisdiction. You see Tom A, all of this is indeed as simple as that which a pious 12 year old Catholic in the state of grace would and must know to save his soul. Ignorance of the Truth Tom A provides NO REMEDY for one’s own salvation, deFide, as outside the Holy Church, there is no salvation. Amen. Alleluia. I pray this admonition helps. In caritas.
Good early Monday morning 2Vermont,
You also write in platitudes as here: “Only home-aloners tend to “condemn” other sedes/non-sedes…saying it is the Church that condemns them of course.”
Demonstrate from the Magisterium, how one as you, is not judged by that same Magisterium, by receiving sacraments from illicit clergy, as across the board, without Blessed Peter in his Successors now present on the earth for 61 years and counting. The simple fact of the false election of so called, “John XXIII”, by having broken Pope Pius XII’s election law, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis” (VAS), in his election, objectively proves Angelo Roncalli could never have been Pope, thus Apostolic Succession was broken in 1958, which proves this simply CANNOT BE a so called, “prolonged interregnum”, as, “interregnum”, requires intact Apostolic Succession and of course. Period and end, as point of fact. Amen. In truth, there are no valid clergy coming from the so called, “novus ordo”, as there can be none without intact Apostolic Succession and a change in the Rite of consecration.
As it regards any so called, “other lines”, of purportedly valid clergy from ANYWHERE else, as all can only be from illicitly consecrated Bishops, as per the Supreme as Apostolic Authority of Pope Pius XII in VAS, as noted here:
“Therefore, We declare invalid and void any power or jurisdiction
pertaining to the Roman Pontiff in his lifetime, which the assembly of Cardinals might decide to
exercise (while the Church is without a Pope), except to the extent to which it be expressly
permitted in this Our Constitution.”
“Invalid and void”, 2Vermont, which means, INVALID, “ANY POWER OR JURISDICTION PERTAINING TO THE ROMAN PONTIFF DURING HIS LIFETIME”, which of course includes the sole as singular Authority for approving Bishops. As that power is reserved to the Pope alone, if anyone else gives that approval, their approval then, IS INVALID AND VOID, which means the approval was never given and the Bishop therefore, “consecrated”, is done so illicitly and we know from, “Ad Apostolorum Principus”, that any Bishop who consecrates illicitly and also the one receiving the illicit consecration, as both then, are in the very act of illicit consecration, “EXCOMMUNICATED SPECIALISSIMO MODO”, by the Holy See. This excommunication, Pope Pius XII commanded applied not just to the Church in China, but to the Universal Church, and this Authority as command was never rescinded. Amen.
Lastly then, anyone who receives Sacraments from illicit Bishops and their illicit ordinands, is committing the mortal sin of sacrilege, each and every time they receive Sacraments from illicit clergy, thus damning their souls over and over and over again. Amen. The ignorance of not knowing is not excuse, as ignorance cannot provide remedy for error. We must hold the Truth to get to the Beatific Vision, ignorance cannot get us there, as Christ commanded: “Ego sum Via, Veritas et Vita”, “I Am the Way and the Truth and the Life. “NO ONE gets to the Father EXCEPT BY ME.” Except by “Truth” thus, as He commanded that is Who He Is. Amen. Alleluia.
Now posit your Magisterial argument to the contrary, 2Vermont and as you simply cannot, the criticism of your rhetorical platitudes does stand. Amen. I pray this admonition helps. In caritas.
And yet again Tom A,
Your purely non-intellective platitudes precede you as does your objective demonstration of internal contradiction, as already proven. Your responses are so short because you simply speak in rhetoric and contradiction, proffering the ad hominem attack, while you prove NOTHING that you claim. Empty claims Tom A, utterly empty as devoid of truth. So now Tom A, for all eyes who can see to see, first demonstrate the difference between what you call, “Ecclesial law”, and what you call, “Divine Law”. Next then, as you once again hurl the ad hominem, prove where I have written what you claim that I have as you claim it here:
” He puts ecclesial law on the same level as Divine Law and says that those who are not blessed to understand it his way are somehow unfaithful Catholics.”
Prove your case Tom A or simply stop writing rhetorical innuendo, as that is a grave sin of calumny. I pray this admonishment helps. In caritas.
In Caritas,
Did Pope Pius XII write VAS because he knew what was going on, and he tried to protect the papacy and us?
Good Monday morning georgianne and Ursula,
The joy in the witness of your acknowledgment of truth, as the reality that it simply is, that which is perfectly as infinitely beyond the capacity of the miserable human creature to even touch, yet alone change in any way, remains certainly beyond my perfectly miserable capacity to describe. Amen. Alleluia. As the Angelic Doctor taught, the will must first be informed by the intellect and then by virtue of the reception of God’s grace alone, can the will freely assent to the true, the beautiful, and the good. Without the reception of grace, we will assent to the privation of the good which is due, the evil thus, in the moral or faith judgment with which we are faced. Amen. This is the teaching of the Angelic Doctor as accepted in the Magisterium, as the only philosophical method that the Church can use. Any other method places the soul in grave danger of error, as the Magisterium teaches. Amen. The human intellect must conform thus to the reality, as it is, truth, and not how we will it to be or how we, “feel”, it to be, to use the utterly profane vernacular, which is simply deception. Period and end. Amen. The Blessed Virgin Mother of God, our Mother, prepared us for all of this, in the past 175 years. Amen. Alleluia. May Almighty God continue to bless and keep you and yours’. In caritas.
Good Monday morning james__o,
Your Catholic clarity now precedes you. Well done, sir. Deeply sorrowfully, those who have not received the grace to see, posit the rhetorical as false argument, the “straw man”, as logically understood that, “all of that Magisterial stuff is just beyond me”, if you will. All of that Magisterial stuff simply cannot be beyond that which a 12 year old must understand to save his soul. To purely opine in conjecture, as if it were otherwise, actually as literally denies the Word Himself, when He commanded: my sheep hear My voice and they KNOW Me. His sheep know Him as Truth. He further commanded, He who KNOWS My commands and follows them, loves Me, and as I Am in the Father, you are in Me, and I in you. Amen. Alleluia. His commands are found in the Holy Magisterium. Amen. It could not be possible for anyone to be saved but the intellectively gifted, if what the likes of Tom A posits, was actually true about understanding the Magisterium. In truth, it is much more likely than not, that more of the intellectively gifted have damned themselves to Hell through pride, then the less so. Amen. Alleluia. May Almighty God continue to bestow His blessings upon you and keep you, james__o. In caritas.
Dearest georgianne,
Remember the infallible teaching of the Holy Ecumenical Vatican Council, in its 4th Session, 18 July, 1870, Amen. Peter and his Successors received from Jesus the Christ, the gifts of “truth and never failing faith”. All of this then rests in the Eternal Mind of the most Holy and Blessed Triune Godhead. Amen. Alleluia. The, “Angelic Pastor”, as Pope Pius XII, prepared us as God Himself prepared us. Amen. Alleluia. God bless and keep you. In caritas.
For the umpteenth time IC, I do not deny any magisterial teaching. I do doubt your conclusion that those magisterial teachings render all ordinations invalid because there is no Pope. I have asked you to produce commentary or treatises by approved sacramental theologians that come to the same conclusion as you. To date you have produced none.
And yet again Tom A,
Your point about the possibility of, “validity”, has already been addressed as per, “Ad Apostolorum Principus”, quoted here many times now, and as acknowledging that, “possibility”. The implacable problem with the question of any, as any at all, validity remaining in the Sacrament of Order, is to be found in, “Cum Ex….”, paragraph 6. Pope Paul IV, in 1559, with his full Apostolic power and Authority, commands that, “if EVER at ANY TIME, it shall APPEAR, that ANY Bishop….has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy….” Now find paragraph 6, copied and pasted here:
“6. In addition, that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy:
(i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless;
(ii) it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration, nor through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff, or Veneration, or obedience accorded to such by all, nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation;
(iii) it shall not be held as partially legitimate in any way;
(iv) to any so promoted to be Bishops, or Archbishops, or Patriarchs, or Primates or elevated as Cardinals, or as Roman Pontiff, no authority shall have been granted, nor shall it be considered to have been so granted either in the spiritual or the temporal domain;
(v) each and all of their words, deeds, actions and enactments, howsoever made, and anything whatsoever to which these may give rise, shall be without force and shall grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone;
(vi) those thus promoted or elevated shall be deprived automatically, and without need for any further declaration, of all dignity, position, honour, title, authority, office and power.”
Therefore Tom A, and again as a 12 year old would and must understand to save his eternal soul, the Pope as the Vicar of Christ speaks utterly simply and clearly. Pope Paul IV commanded this:
“(i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless;
(ii) it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration,…”.
What more could you possibly need? He commands with his full Apostolic Authority that,
“”(i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless; ”
“…shall be null, void and worthless;…”, the promotion or elevation. Further, he next commands this:
” (ii) it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration,…”. And further commands this: “…nor through the lapse of any period of time…”, thus there is no time limit to their perceived position as Bishop or Cardinal, it yet remains as, “null, void, and worthless”. Amen.
You see Tom A, just because a would be Bishop accepts his, “consecration”, does NOT bring it VALIDITY, as Pope Paul IV commands, “it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity).”
Thus, any as every Bishop or Cardinal who assented to Roncalli, as being guilty of apostasy in that very act of assent, was then deemed to have never acquired, “validity”, in the first place, upon their, “acceptance”, of, “consecration” or “elevation”, into the Bishopric or Cardinalate. Amen. This is the infallible as Authoritative teaching of the Magisterium. Anyone who denies this cannot therefore simultaneously hold the Catholic Faith in the very denial of any article of that same Faith, which itself is Magisterial teaching in, “Satis Cognitum”. And again, this as per, “Ad Apostolorum Principus”, as well and already edified in this space for your benefit. Amen.
Even if your errant position was correct Tom A, “validity”, in the Sacrament of Order, as perfectly illicit and as already demonstrated as such in, “Ad Apostolorum Principus”, would only bring damnation to the soul of the man who received the illicit Sacrament of Order, and to all those laity, as each and every time they received ANY AS ANY AT ALL, valid Sacraments from these illicit men. Your position thus damns you in any event, through the mortal sin of sacrilege. So what could your point about, “validity” versus “illicity”, POSSIBLLY MATTER, when the Magisterium Judges you as in the mortal sin of sacrilege anyway? I pray this helps you in your pursuit of the Catholic Faith. Amen. In caritas.
I think it just makes everything simpler because it is black and white. (Is and is not.) No mental gymnastics needed.
God bless you in your reception of Magisterial Truth georgianne. What all but all fail to recognize, is that there is no, “opinion”, in any of this, rather it is the Vicar of Christ teaching and governing as Christ Himself, as the, “gifts of truth and never failing faith”, were given him, and as per the Ecumenical Vatican Council in 1870. And the governance, as “Jurisdiction”, in the, “keys to bind and loose”, as commanded by the Word Himself, as He walked the earth. Amen. Alleluia. Praised be Jesus the Christ, True God and True Man. In caritas.
IC, again thank you for your take on Cum Ex. I will ask again, can you point to any sacramental theologian that discusses the issue of validity of ordinations performed by heretics?
Tom,
How can anyone ordain anyone at all, in reality, when their own consecration was invalid in the first place? Everything they do is thereby null and void. It’s really so simple. We do not need the opinions of theologians to decipher the words of the Pope (Jesus Christ) given above.
Poor, poor Tom A,
Your lack of holding the divine as Catholic Faith precedes you. There is no, “my take”, on, “Cum Ex….”. “Cum Ex” is the Authoritative as infallible teaching of the Vicar of Christ. If you were now Catholic, you wouldn’t be, in the very act of heresy, in your obstinate suggestion time and again after correction, that we need a theologian to interpret that which ONLY as SINGULARLY, the Vicar of Christ can interpret for the flock infallibly with Authority that binds us at the pain of Hell. Amen. If we needed a theologian to interpret that which is Authoritatively taught, as infallibly, by the singular man in the cosmos given that power to do so, the Magisterium then lied to us, as infallibility with Apostolic Authority, simply CANNOT BE PERFECTED BY A FALLIBLE THEOLOGIAN. Tom A. What you intone is utter heresy. The Pope teaches and governs us Authoritatively and infallibly, then Tom A relies on theologians who can and do err, such that Tom A can then assent to the error of the Theologian, in lieu of the Truth from the Holy Pontiff. Your conjecture would be laughable if it were not evidence of your being on the path to eternal perdition.
And lastly in your obstinate rejection of Magisterial teaching Tom A. The question of you. What could your reception of perfectly illicit Sacraments due for you, as if they were indeed valid, when even if they were, your soul would be damned, as EACH AND EVERY TIME YOU RECEIVED THEM, as per the teaching of the Church? Amen. God have mercy on your soul Tom A.
Tom A,
Witness the simplicity in holding the divine as Catholic Faith of “georgianne” and “Ursula”. They have no problem in understanding Magisterial teaching. Why do you, as now rhetorically asked? Save your soul, man. In caritas.
Our Lord’s commands to baptize (Mt 28:19), forgive sins (Jn 20:22), offer Mass (Lk 22:19), etc. constitute a divine law that binds all Catholic bishops and priests until the end of time.
It can not be illicit or sinful for these priests and bishops to follow our Lord’s commands…especially in times such as these. Likewise, it is not sinful for any Catholic to receive these sacraments from these men.
I know that Pius XII could not contradict our Lord’s teachings, so I also know that the interpretation of VAS presented by the home-aloners has to be wrong.
I offer this post for those who are currently being led astray by them. I hope that this helps them.
Dear 2Vermont,
Your unmitigated audacity is now spectacular, as it is nothing short of breathtaking. You offer 2Vermont’s PRIVATE INTERPRETATION of the Holy Writ and you then actually as literally posit the claim, and you are serious, as the proper understanding of these truths determines our very eternal disposition, that Pope Pius XII, COULDN’T HAVE MEANT what he actually meant. Absurd on its face, 2Vermont. Because 2Vermont cannot see the reality, as it is, while at once 2Vermont can privately as singularly interpret the Holy Writ as he see’s fit, Pope Pius XII, according to you, couldn’t possibly mean what he commanded, as any 12 year old would and must understand to save his soul. What you and poor Tom A obstinately refuse to acknowledge, is that you are simply as objectively not receiving God’s grace of the intellective Lights to see, that which a 12 year old would.
Pope Pius XII Authoritatively as definitely taught that it is mortally sinful for Bishops to consecrate Bishops without Apostolic Mandate, as both the consecrator and the one consecrated are then, “Excommunicated Specialissimo Modo” by the Apostolic See. Amen. This excommunication then causes any man who receives Orders from these men to have received them illicitly, as without Jurisdiction, thus they too are damned objectively in their reception of the Sacrament, if it were valid. That was copied and pasted for you 2Vermont. He said specifically that these commands apply to the Universal Church and not just the Catholic Church in China in, “Ad Apostolorum Principis”. This law he never changed and thus it stands unto the Last Day. Amen. Those poor pathetic men that believe that they are valid and licit Bishops and priests, simply in reality as it is, truth thus, and not as reality as they and you believe it to be, deception thus, which they and you adhere to freely in your will, CANNOT BE WHO THEY THINK THEY ARE, as infallibly and Authoritatively taught in the Magisterium. Which you and they simply deny. I do pray you are helped. In caritas.
IC, it is a great trick to claim someone else’s conclusion as wrong but yours a magisterial. I am still waiting for some citation of some approved theologian to concur with your conclusion. If its so obvious as you say, there must be dozens of theologians who wrote the same conclusions you hold. So can you please produce them.
Illicit does not necessarily make something invalid.
I never denied that an illicit administering of a sacrament was a mortal sin. I totally agree with that.
IC, here is a scenario that I want to see if you agree with. In 1965, Bishop A of the Diocese of B goes along with the heresies of vatican 2. Per Cum Ex he automatically loses his office as Bishop of Diocese B. But Bishop A, then ordains Father C using the old Rite of ordination and assigns him to parish D. Well of course, the assignment is null and void since Bishop A lost his office and no longer has any jurisdiction or authority to make parish assignments. Now, Father C then dies in a car accident and goes to hell for accepting Vatican 2. Does Father C enter hell with the indelible mark of the priesthood or not?
IN Caritas…you might as well save your breath.
Tom, don’t hold your breath. Really. Wht do you continue to bother?
Dear Tom A,
Once and for all, why don’t you lay out all of the absolute proof that you have that the Sacraments you receive are WITHOUT A DOUBT (as it must be so or we cannot receive them) valid and licit.
That should clear up the matter for everyone, right here, right now.
…or your typing fingers.
You see, Tom A, it is YOU who bears the burden of proof, not us, for Holy Mother Church teaches us:
1) The Faith comes before Sacraments
2) A doubtful Sacrament is NO Sacrament
3) We MUST know from whence our pastors come (John 10:1-6)
You want a theologian? Well then, is Dom Guéranger good enough for you?
“Sad indeed was the ruin of such pillars as these! Peter’s hand had placed them in the Church. They had merited the love and veneration of men, but they fell; and their fall gave one more proof of the solidity of that edifice, which Christ Himself had built on Peter. The unity of the Church was made more visible. Obliged by the treachery of Her own favored children to deprive them of the privileges they had received from Her, Rome was, more evidently than ever, the sole source of pastoral power. We, then, both priests and people, have a right to know whence our pastors have received their power. From whose hand have they received the keys? If their mis- sion comes from the apostolic see, let us honor and obey them, for they are sent to us by Jesus Christ, who has invested them, through Peter, with His own authority. If they claim our obedi- ence without having been sent by the bishop of Rome, we must refuse to receive them for they are not acknowledged by Christ as His ministers. The holy anointing may have con- ferred on them the sacred character of the episcopate: it matters not; they must be as al- iens to us, for they have not been sent, they are NOT pastors. Thus it is the divine Founder of the Church, who willed that She should be a city seated on a mountain, gave Her visibility; it was an essential requisite; for since all were called to enter Her pale, all must be able to see Her. But He was not satisfied with this. He moreover willed that the spiritual power exercised by Her pastors should come from a visible source, so that the faithful might have a sure means of verify- ing the claims of those who were to guide them in His name. Our Lord (we say it reverently) owed this to us; for, on the last day, He will not receive us as His children, unless we shall have been members of His Church, and have lived in union with Him by the ministry of pastors LAWFULLY constituted.”
See: The Liturgical Year, Vol 4, Pages 282-287
IN case you missed it above, I am anxiously awaiting the evidence that, without a doubt, I can receive the Sacraments SOMEWHERE without committing Sacrilege given the circumstances of our time. I’ll fly across the world for them if need be:
Dear Tom A,
Once and for all, why don’t you lay out all of the absolute proof that you have that the Sacraments you receive are WITHOUT A DOUBT (as it must be so or we cannot receive them) valid and licit.
That should clear up the matter for everyone, right here, right now.
Adding:
I suppose we need a theologian to explain this one, too, from the 4th Lateran Council (1215):
“Surely NO one can accomplish this Sacrament except a priest who has been RIGHTLY ordained according to the KEYS of the CHURCH, which Jesus Christ HIMSELF conceded to the Apostles and to their successors.”
Tom A, or anyone else, PLEASE show me your hand. I, too, would love to have access to the Sacraments, but you must PROVE IT leaving NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER. Don’t be afraid to type and make extremely long, skinny comments. I can handle it. If anyone can’t, then it’s doubtful that they have even bothered to read the Magisterial documents recommended here, or any for that matter.
The clock starts NOW….
Good Monday Evening, In Caritas,
Thank you, and God bless you, too. I am still a bit surprised that I stumbled upon this just a few days ago, but it truly is the only thing left in this world that makes sense. Thank you, again. I wish I knew people that know this and hold the Catholic Faith in real life.
Thank you, A Simple Beggar, for answering. Thank you for your helps and suggestions. Things just make sense now. I searched for answers, too, for so long, and the truth seemed elusive. I just kept searching and begging, too. But, the time wasn’t right, I still had to wait a few years. I felt stuck, but I wasn’t going to quit. I stumbled across Berthe Petit last week, prayed to Our Lady under the title of Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart for a few days, stumbled into this site that I haven’t thought about for 1.5 years, looked up, and there it was.
Thank you.
I remembered you and Ursula, Georgianne, from 1.5 years ago.
Poor, poor Tom A,
Your foolishness indeed accompanies you, as it precedes you. The only, “great trick”, as to, “claim someone else’s conclusion as wrong…”, is yours’ Tom A, as you have yet to prove one iota of anything that you claim is true, simply because Tom A believes it to be, even when Tom A’s belief places an affront to the Holy Magisterium, thus damning your soul, as you remain blind as a Pharisee. Amen. The hubris in that, which of course you are utterly as willfully blinded to. You have proved not a thing of what you claim is true, as though you are the Pope. What you claim to be my, (sic) “magisterial” conclusion, is in fact the Vicar of Christ’s Authoritative teaching as plainly stated for one who is aged 12 to perfectly understand. Because you do not hold the Catholic Faith Tom A, you are simply blinded. That is the prophetic reality which you hold immanently. All Tom A is interested in is playing childish games with his eternal soul. Woe is you, Tom A. You now freely claim to concur that the sacraments you receive are mortally sinful and it doesn’t seem to touch you, as you wrote,
“I never denied that an illicit administering of a sacrament was a mortal sin. I totally agree with that.”
It is impossible as per Magisterial teaching all sited and again, to have any, as any at all, licit Sacraments in the world today. Poor, poor Tom A. God have mercy on your soul. In caritas.
I wanted to say this to you but Dom Guéranger, the THEOLOGIAN himself stated it so plainly, as did IC: IT DOESN’T MATTER.
ASB, I never set out to prove to you or to IC that sede sacraments were licit and that you should receive them. If you have doubts then by all means the proper thing to do is to avoid. IC made an assertion a while back that without papal jurisdiction any ordination a bishop performed was not only illicit but it was invalid as well. I agree that it is illicit, but question whether he is correct stating that the ordination was also invalid. It was always my understanding that an ordination done without papal jurisdiction was sinful, illicit, yet still considered valid. You two think those magisterial documents present certitude but I do not agree. For this he says I am outside the Church. If he is correct, there must be much commentary by approved theologians on this subject. Point the way.
Good Tuesday morning Tom A,
This for the good of the souls who see, as a 12 year old would see. Amen. Let the ad hominem attacks come as they will, demonstrating firstly no true foundation in proper understanding, again as one aged 12 would have in these matters of one’s own salvation, by the reception of God’s grace alone, and secondly that their heart is cold, as no love is to be found in them. Amen. The divine and Catholic Faith is a pure Gift from the One Who is Love, as Deus Caritas Est. Amen. Alleluia. One either holds that Gift or he does not, as he CANNOT both hold it and not hold it, at the same time, and under the same respect of what the Faith actually is in reality, as that affronts the law of non-contradiction, accepted in the Magisterium. Amen. You just wrote this Tom A:
“You two think those magisterial documents present certitude but I do not agree. ”
Do you understand what you actually posit here? This sentence alone separates you from the divine and Catholic Faith, deFide. Do you even know that? I will now be so bold as to say that you do not know what you do. Tom A is now on record as affirming in his will that the Holy, Infallible, and Authoritative Magisterium, protected by the Third Person of the Triune Godhead, DOES NOT, “present certitude”. You are implying here tacitly that the Holy Ghost does not know all things, in time and space, as in His eternal NOW. That Tom A, places an affront to the Infinite power of the Holy Ghost, the Blessed Paraclete. Amen. May God have mercy on you and me, as that would seem to be a sin against the Holy Ghost.
Tom A, anyone as ANYONE AT ALL, who truly holds the divine and Catholic Faith knows with APODICTIC certitude that the Holy Magisterium is indeed the ONLY WELLSPRING OF CERTITUDE in the cosmos as IT INDEED IS CERTITUDE itself. Amen. Alleluia.
Lastly for now Tom A, there ARE NO THEOLOGIANS. Look around Tom A. Theologians of the true Church are long dead and gone. Theologians as perfectly fallible human creatures can only speculate in the time which they live and about the application of the Magisterium to that time. They do not know the future as the Holy Magisterium of course does, as it is guided perfectly as by the Infinite Power of the Holy Ghost. The holy Doctor and Saint of the Church, Robert Bellarmine, speculated about the possibility of the Pontiff falling into heresy in his time, which was proper for an eminent theologian as he to do then. That said, he doubted that could ever happen. That said, if he did that today and since, July, 1870, he would not be, as he could not be a Saint and Doctor, rather he would be an heretic, Amen. Once these speculative matters are closed for discussion by the Magisterium they are closed. Period and end. This is the divine and Catholic Faith Tom A, outside of which there simply is no salvation, as deFide. I do pray you save your soul. It brings great sorrow to even have to write such things, but the Truth must be known, as He commands. Amen. Alleluia. In caritas.
Dear Tom A,
The whole point of the matter is that Holy Mother Church teaches us that if there is any doubt whatsoever concerning the validity of a Sacrament then we cannot act, lest we run the risk of committing sacrilege. Whether or not a man has the indelible mark is irrelevant, as Guéranger stated, it matters not (and they can).
Do you possess this level of certitude when it comes to the Sacraments which you receive?
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.
ASB, it was never my intention in these posts to object to anyone who came to the conclusion that one should avoid the sacraments of sede priests since they lack any jurisdiction. But IC made an assertion about ordinations being invalid without papal jurisdiction. Or at least that was how I interpreted his comment. This is the only point of contention I wish to discuss. Pope Leo XIII in Apostolicae Curae, On the Nullity of Anglican Orders, 1896, clearly and authoritatively and magisterially attributes the nullity of Anglican Orders to an improper form and not as IC asserts, a lack of jurisdiction. So as long as the proper form is used, these bishops without jurisdiction continue to ordain new bishops and Apostolic Succession continues. How they get their jurisdiction back is anyone’s guess. Should you go to them for sacraments? I have no clue. Are they all in mortal sin for being ordained without ordinary jurisdiction? Maybe. But that was never the point of my objection with IC. It was on this one issue only that I objected and it has now been proven definitively and magisterially by Pope Leo XIII in my favor. Case closed.
Dear Tom A,
Again, per Pope Pius XII, consecrations of bishops without a Papal Mandate are illicit. How, therefore, can an act of blatant disobedience (to Jesus Christ via His Vicar on earth) result in the continuation of Apostolic Succession? Lastly, even if it did, how does this benefit you or anyone else when receiving Sacraments from these lines is, in fact, a sacrilege and damns the soul forever and ever?
Your mind is all twisted up, Tom A. Your intellect is not conforming to reality as it is, and you are harkening to the demons whispering in your ears instead of the Voice of Christ, while your words are potentially misleading or confirming others in their own errors. I pray that you PRAY for guidance and for the Truth as precious time closes in upon you.
Yes ASB, consecrations without a mandate are indeed illicit. As I said before, I never meant to argue licit vs illicit. I am in complete agreement with you and Canon Law that it is sinful to consecrate without jurisdiction.
Thanks In caritas.
Sometimes it strikes me as being the fault of a “lazy” intellect also in some cases, because most people are quite gifted intellectually.
And of course, the anti-“philosophy” of modernism will undermine even the potentially greatest intellects, and nullify that grace. May the Lord bless and keep you as well.