Rorate Caeli posted an interesting article from Vatican Radio about a woman by the name of Sigrid Spath, a famous German translator who died yesterday. According to the article:
She worked in the Jesuit General House, and then in the Vatican, since the days of Paul VI and translated around 70,000 pages of documents from Italian, French, English, Spanish or Polish into German, as well as several texts by Joseph Ratzinger, as Cardinal or Pope, as he also wrote original texts in Italian.
Following is the part of the Vatican Radio piece that is creating a buzz in certain Catholic circles:
It was also Cardinal Ratzinger who, according to her own testimony, advised Sigrid Spath to remain a Protestant, and not to convert to the Catholic Church, as she had considered in a moment of crisis. She could do more for both churches if she remained a Protestant, said the Cardinal. The Carinthian remained in the Protestant Christuskirche in Rome throughout her life.
Naturally, the Restorationist types are horrified by this revelation, but it will interesting to see how “conservative” commentators react to the story, if at all.
In any case, can anyone really be surprised? This is simply the New Evangelization in action. It has never been anything other than a program of social justice and religious diplomacy that is singularly focused on “human dignity.”
No doubt some will question the accuracy of the article, but that’s not the point. The simple fact that Vatican Radio is reporting this story as if it is anything other than a terrible scandal tells us all we need to know:
The “New Evangelization” is the church-of-man’s mockery of the Great Commission; having nothing whatsoever to do with drawing those outside of the Holy Catholic Church into the solitary Ark of Salvation.
OK, I may get a rap as being a defend-Ratzinger-at-any-cost, but two things: the woman was in a moment of crisis. Perhaps he thought that she was lacking due discretion in that moment to make the profession of faith etc. and counseled in that way thinking that after the crisis she should placidly swim the Tiber.
Still I agree that there is no place for the maxim, “You must grow where you are planted” to do more good there.
‘The “New Evangelization” is the church-of-man’s mockery of the Great Commission; having nothing whatsoever to do with drawing those outside of the Holy Catholic Church into the solitary Ark of Salvation.”
–
the above is incontestable; but what about the anecdote; did Joe Ratzinger really say, look, there’s no need to convert…you’re better off out on the perdition periphery? who can say?
–
but this sort of ‘ecumenical rapprochement’ (a new term I learned courteousy of the Archbishop Lefebvre movie) whether with protesting christians or, these days since ecumenism breaches the boundaries of any concept of Christ Our Lord and God, going out to the peripheries’, of the post-christian ecumenical buddy programme, hungry to make facebook friends of so many many, false faiths.
It was a startling thing to read I must say. What should have been a moment of job becomes a moment of negativity.
We must remember that Ratzinger was a progressive at the Council, firmly aligned against the likes of Ottaviani, and, with several others like Rahner, fought his remarkably lucid schemas from the beginning. Some site just posted the original schemas and they are as clear as spring water compared to what we ended up getting. I can’t recall the site but some scholar translated them all and they are inspiring reading and so clear.
Perhaps, Ratzinger knew that converting from Protestantism to the New Order Church is a lateral move and not worth the trouble.
This will upset many, as they’re under the mistaken notion that he was a traditionalist. I thus strongly recommend searching the net for this essay:
The Oath Against Modernism vs. the ‘Hermeneutic of Continuity,’ by John Vennari
Catholic Militant, lol. Actually, it seems like the NO is almost worse than some of the sects.
And yes, we all know that Ratzinger was a liberal. However, I think he showed a greatness in being honest and breaking from his fellow liberals early on. By 1968, hadn’t he left Tubingen to go to Regensberg? Hadn’t he and like minded thinkers in the Nouveau Theologie founded Communio to battle Consilio? My impression is that this journey has continued in Ratzinger’s life and was fulfilled in Summorum Pontificum.
I am not by any means a theologian. However, I think both left and right fail to make distinctions and overplay labels. Traditional Catholics will, for example, say: the entire resourcement project was corrupts and all of the nouvelle theolgie was corrupting. This seems too stark. It seems to me that this movement had two principal streams- the thoroughly narcissistic and destructive (Kung, Schiblidex etc), and the humble and creative (Danielou and Ratzinger). There is a lot of evidence by the way, that Danielou, rather than dying in flagrante delicto with a prostitute, was murdered by the masons/Jesuits because he was calling them out as assassins and was trying to agitate for a restoration of Catholicism in 1974. I am reading his book On Knowledge of God. It has the most amazing and cutting and pithy rejection of universalism I have ever seen. Also, it is shot through with Thomism- with ample quotes from Gilson and Maritain.
Here are the original schemas:
http://unamsanctamcatholicam.com/component/content/article/79-history/421-original-vatican-ii-schemas.html
Frightening how the Modernists came out against them and look what we got in it’s place.
After reading the story on Rorate Caeli, I took down my portrait of BXVI from the prominent place it occupied on my study wall and threw it in the trash bin. Sorry, but this poor lady, Mrs Spath could have attained eternal salvation if not for advice received from a… Heathen. Heathen with a capital H. What kind or a man does this sort of thing? And a man who SHOULD know what is at stake. And he never tried to correct it? And he remained a priest in the Holy Roman Catholic Church? All I can say is God have mercy on his wretched soul.
Showing us once again that, the more his defenders try to convince us that there is no daylight between Francis and his predecessor on major issues, the more poorly it will reflect on the latter.
@ S.Armaticus
In Erfurt Benedict presents Luther as a model for Catholics
http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A438-Erfurt.html
Quote Pope Benedict in Erfurt in front of unrepentant Lutherans:
“Luther’s thinking, his whole spirituality, was thoroughly Christocentric: “What promotes Christ’s cause” was for Luther the decisive hermeneutical criterion for the exegesis of sacred Scripture. This presupposes, however, that Christ is at the heart of our spirituality and that love for him, living in communion with him, is what guides our life.”
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2011/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20110923_evangelical-church-erfurt_en.html
Wait a moment, wasn´t there a Church that Christ founded, His only Church, the Catholic one? Is it possible to “promote Christ´s cause” by leaving His true Church and starting a rebellion against Rome, especially against the Pope and Sacred Tradition as Luther did?
As a convert to Catholicism being raised in the Lutheran errors it is best not to comment on Pope Benedict´s lapsus, otherwise I could become too harsh.
according to her own testimony
She’s dead. From whence does this testimony arise? The RC piece does not cite to anything in particular that is verifiable, and neither does the Vatican Radio article. Before passing judgment, I would need a little more substantiation. It may be true, but I am a little suspect.
Luther was an arch-Heretic. St. Thomas More labeled him as such. Hmmm, should I take the word of a saint, or a recent pope who resigned.
I don’t know that he necessarily presents Luther as a complete model in all things in that speech, but only presents him as a Lutheran example against secular and relativist tendencies. Even St. Paul was not above refraining from giving offense when preaching to Greeks.
@ c matt
I think you don´t know who Luther was.
Luther- yeah, that black civil rights leader from…. Oh, no wait, that dude who had a diet of worms?
To add insult to injury, it is seriously reported that the Catholic Church intends to celebrate the 500th anniversary of Luther and his vile rebellion in 2017!!! It will also be the year of the 100th aniversary of the apparitions at Fatima. Will that be celebrated???? Are we approaching the Final Battle??God help us!
dear Catholic Militant, to your point –
you may know of this video already, but in case not:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPk_4TYgYgY–begins with treatment of children of Fatima–but moves quickly to your point.
I am a convert from Lutheranism–a heresy far removed from the teaching of Our Blessed Lord.
dear c matt
I agree. Among other things, can hope she made a perfect act of contrition prior to death, perhaps because of {any,} Catholic witness she may have been exposed to before the event.
Thank you, Linda Stella Zenter, I will definitely tune into this. Both Vennari and Chjonowski are fabulous!
“Luther’s thinking, his whole spirituality, was thoroughly Christocentric: “What promotes Christ’s cause” was for Luther the decisive hermeneutical criterion for the exegesis of sacred Scripture. This presupposes, however, that Christ is at the heart of our spirituality and that love for him, living in communion with him, is what guides our life.”
Only a German rationalist could characterize Luther’s thinking in such a verbose jargon-laden way. Luther was an Augustinian who got lost in such extreme scrupulosity which led him to give up on penance and confession. Love for Christ mandates a love for the Petrine office which he ultimately rejected. I am a huge fan of Benedict XVI but like anyone else, he has his blind spots, and this one of them. He himself described himself as perhaps too much of a rationalist to believe in some supernatural events.
It is a difficult time for the Church and we don’t need any misguided glorification of Luther to help us out of it.
To understand the so-called ‘new evangelization’, we MUST forget the past……like, martyrdom and their witness, for the true Catholic Faith of so many Christians in every century till today.
We must shut our ears to the warnings of holy Popes from not long ago, regarding Modernism, false ecumenism of every stripe…… such as Jews, Protestants, infidels…… Must ‘WE’ forget their blasphemous ‘errors against God, His Church, against Heaven?
We Must NOT ‘hate’ the SIN, nor, ‘ERROR’, rather, love the sinner in the name of the so-called ‘Christian unity’, for the sake of getting along …that all religions are more or less good and praiseworthy…….this is the error of indifferentism….. sugar-coating the words of a grave errors, even if they are against the foundations of the Catholic Faith……..Miserere!
We Must no longer speak publicly in ‘fearless faith’ about ‘Truth’, Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ the King of kings, the Lord of lords…….. the HEAD of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Catholic Church, outside of which there’s NO SALVATION!!!
WE MUST NOT compromise, we must not waver…..the mission of the Holy Church WAS IS TILL THE END OF TIME……TO SAVE SOULS!
May God Have Mercy on the post-Vatican II hierarchy…..from top…down!!!
Viva Cristo Rey!
i have to agree and will say no more. People like Rahner, Ratzinger, de Lubac, von Balthasar, while having added much to the Church, are the origin of this attitude of “We are the Greeks” and the bad old Church was, well, just bad. They can’t even think of admitting that their whole life’s work, on the whole, was a horrendous negative for the Church and people like Ottaviani, though blind, were 100x more perceptive about the future of the Church than they were in their youth and arrogance.
People should make decisions when they’re capable and not under duress. I’m very suspect of this story.
Stories based on second-hand accounts may be exciting, but if they are not supported by reliable evidence, they deserve no credence. People have a right to their good name, unless there is solid evidence to believe that something unfavourable to them is true. Traditionalists are often criticised for being less than charitable – it would be far better if the Traditionalist case were commended by the refusal of Traditionalists to think ill of others unless they had solid reasons to do so.
The former Pope deserves better than to be criticised on the basis of a story which has not been shown to be any more than rumour. He would deserve that much consideration even if he were ten thousand times worse than all his critics say of him. As we treat others, we will ourselves be treated – to paraphrase some words from Luke 6.
That people should make decisions when not in crisis or distress contradicts God’s providence. He whom He loves, He chastises.
Or, perhaps St. Paul should have had a second thought or two about changing his ways – ’cause he was under duress…
What about Jonah?
The Old Testament is full of examples of people returning to God under less-than-stellar conditions. There are many in the New Testament as well. St. Mary Magdalene? How about the lives of the Saints?
It could be that this poor woman was being called by God to His Church. Why else would the Holy Spirit suggest converting?
After all, if there is any value at all in the ecumenism, or in the organizations of our ‘Separated Brethren,’ it is simply the path that leads to the Church and Salvation.
To discourage anyone from taking this path is inexcusable.
I hope this story is not true.
Paul
Glad to see so many folks, based on a quote with little context (she may have misunderstood, he may have been cautioning her against converting simply out of crisis, or a million other explanations), are willing to trumpet their Catholic credentials as superior to a Successor of Peter… mostly via anonymous internet postings. Are any favors done for Tradition when Traditionalists constantly denigrate Novus Ordo Catholics as spiritually lazy and/or stupid? If we step back and look at the commentary here, is it of a tone or content that will lead anyone to conversion?
Bryan Kirchoff
St. Louis
dear Bryan Kirchoff,
I agree with you. The answer to your first question is -no. But to your second, in my lifetime it has been shown to me that people convert to Catholicism for the most astounding reasons. Very often a passion is ignited–and often that passion is even anger So, I don’t think one can point to tone or content as either leading to conversion or not.
But I think I get what you’re trying to say.
If you’re interested, Fr. Chad Ripperger addresses what I think are some of your concerns on the Sensus Traditionis site, multimedia category. These are audios. On the multimedia page-go to “Traditionalist Problems,” and “Traditionist challenge,” and the “Tradition” series, Parts I through X. Sometime perhaps I’d be interested to know what you think of what is said there.
If I may say, and in general, the overall attitude, if you will, of a so-called “Trad,” is a crushing heartbreak for brethren who have never been exposed to Catholicism as it was before VII–not flawless, but Catholic. “Trads,” through no virtue of their own, but purely as a gift of Providence, were somehow exposed to that beauty, some in an experiential way {like myself since I am elderly,} or sundry other ways. And please know that I am not just talking about the TLM.
Being way far from perfect , we don’t always know how to express our heartbreak and concern for the brethren. In my case in particular, I often use the front on 2 X 4 approach, to be quite honest. But our love is true, and our devotion is sincere, Just like you.
God love you.
“We have nothing to invent, we don’t want to invent anything.”–Bp. Fellay
But Bryan as someone who must worship in the spiritually lazy and stupid Novus Ordo way, it is spiritually immature and practically denies the Real Presence. It is not a good alternative to the TLM, in which case, why is it so prolific? Why are most Catholics subjected to this bastardization of the Faith every day? Because the devil is doing his job and we are letting him. it’s that simple.
p.s. case in point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKamyUVcs4s&feature=youtu.be
if you can force yourself through the whole appalling hour and a half of this self-congratulatory bilge, the idea that the NO has anything better to offer Catholic worshipers of Our Lord is put to rest. The NO worships the worshipers.
‘”You go proclaim that Gospel uncle Bob!”
Jimmy, why don’t we all do some digging and see if the Rorate story was pure second hand gossip as you suggest. This pattern is familiar now. A credible source reveals something shocking about post V2 happening, faithful Catholics react with shock, and then the calvary ride in to say that the quote was probably dubious and look how mean those Catholics are. It’s happened about 35 times so far.
Jimmy – Even if the Sigrid S. story is 100% nonsense, Joseph Ratzinger has a paper trail half a century long. His novelties are clearly documented, and there is more than ample basis to be sharply critical of him. We have the right to expect better from a Supreme Pontiff than dabbling in heterodoxy. Personally, I see no reason not to believe the story, and the former pope’s infatuations with all things ecumenical strengthens the credibility of the story.
Byron K – There are no other licit explanations. Aside from the issue of personal crisis, he made clear the reason for her not to convert was that she could do more ecumenical good by remaining a Lutheran, a patent nonsensical concept, that was clearly intended to hold true, even after a personal crisis has passed.
While we should seek to make converts, every single statement doesn’t have to be custom tailored toward them. We also have every right to openly, candidly call out leaders of the Church who behave in irresponsible manners. Perhaps even a prospective convert or two, who has grown enamored of Catholicism through strict traditional teachings, will take heart by seeing a faction of Catholisc who are committed to tradition, and will proceed to convert, instead of being puzzled and dismayed by popes trawling in novelty and not seeing anybody stand up and question, challenge, and protest.
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/206302?eng=y
Was the Founder of Taizé Protestant, or Catholic? A Cardinal Solves the Riddle
The article published in 2008 helps gaining a reliable perspective on Ratzinger/Benedict XVI’s thinking toward ecumenism.
Mrs. Spath died a Lutheran.
How uncharitable is that, Bryan?
The great irony in all this, is that a protestant won’t hesitate to tell a Catholic thst he needs to convert, or he’ll go to hell for being Catholic. Like bishop Sheen said, we have all the truth and no zeal, they have all zeal and no truth.
Rodj – if B XVI has an ecumenical “rap” sheet decades long, by all means criticize the rap sheet. The point Bryan, others, and myself are trying to make is that this story seems a bit “convenient.” We can no longer turn to Ms. Spath for confirmation. Rorate cites to the Vatican Radio article, and the Vatican Radio article cites to … nothing for this alleged statement. It really is not much to go by, in particular given the recent stabs at B XVI by the New Order of Cardinals who suddenly seem drunk with power to either make him look bad among traditionalists, or make him seem like an ecumaniac like the rest of them (or both). I would be far more interested in your analysis of B XVI’s own writings rather than focusing on what appears to be not well substantiated.
….from City of God……St. Augustine
….”where there is no true religion there are no true virtues’……That is ‘their’ guilt., for not preaching such truth in ‘charity’ for ‘savings souls’…….
“Where is the New Theology (new evangelization…..my emphasis) leading us to? It is taking us in a straight line right back to modernism by way of whims, errors and heresy.” – Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.
C Matt, that is not accurate. It says “according to her own testimony.” So presumably, unless the story is a pure falsehood, there is some statement of hers written down somewhere to this effect. To say that “she’s dead” and we therefore can’t believe any of this not plausible. Why don’t we all email Rorate and find out where this alleged testimony of hers is.
I am at a loss for words folks.
Objective reality is as follows:
Mrs. Spath is deceased. Check
Mrs. Spath deceased as a Lutheran. Check
Mrs. Spath is not in heavan, nor will she ever be. Check
Mrs. Spath, according to her testimony, from a very reliable blog, a blog that breaks stories that turn out correct with a 98%+ accuracy rate (we know who their source is, now don’t we?), spoke to then Cardinal, later Pope Ratzinger about converting. Check (Maybe).
Cardinal Ratzinger advised her to stay a Lutheran. Check (Maybe)
Father Lombardi has not denied the Rorate Caeli story. Check
There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Check.
Lutherans are outside the Catholic Church. Check. (Sorry, no maybe.)
So besides the obvious question about the poor women’s soul, which does not seam to be much of a concern for some of our fellow posters here – yes I’m looking at you Bryan, the pressing question that I have is as follows:
Why were all the neo-cons and various leftist looney’s getting so bent out of shape about this time last year, when Bishop Fellay courteously declined Pope Ratzinger’s gracious offer about returning into the Catholic Church?
PS Not to mention crap about the legitimacy of sacraments at SSPX chapels.
Just sayin……..
.. I meant conciliar church in the line. The “Catholic Church” should be in brackets.
“Mrs. Spath is not in heavan, nor will she ever be. Check”
Wow, God is on this blog to tell us who is in heaven or not!
Is it possible that Sigrid Spath was lying?
Let us all take a deep breath. In reality, Mrs. Spath is not the only one soul that fell victim to this kind of ‘twisted mind’…….that we do not have to convert any longer to the One True Catholic Faith. THERE ARE MILLIONS!!! They are our relatives, friends and our neighbors. All around us people are dying as ‘pagans’, do to their hostility against Jesus Christ and His Church, do to their ignorance of seeking ‘truth’, do to the ‘grave failure of the Shephe”Where is the New Theology leading us to? It is taking us in a straight line right back to modernism by way of whims, errors and heresy.” – Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.
rds to feed the sheep’ with what was passed on to them from the time of the Apostles. Without pointing the finger (God Knows), everyday fallen away Catholics, Jews, Protestants, infidels die on account of ‘false charity’, or, ‘fear of being accused of anti-Semitism’s.
….from Mirari Vos of Pope Gregory XVI…..
…..afflicted as We are with so many trials, We must raise Our voice and attempt all things lest a wild boar from the woods should destroy the vineyard or wolves kill the flock. It is Our duty to lead the flock only to the food which is healthful. In these evil and dangerous times, the shepherds MUST NEVER neglect their duty; THEY MUST NEVER be so overcome by fear that they abandon the sheep. Let them NEVER neglect the flock and become sluggish from idleness and apathy……Let our vigilance be ONE and our effort United against the common enemies………”One Lord, One faith, One baptism” (Eph. 4:5), may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever……..without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate.” AMEN!
….sorry for the mess, it’s the evil one, at work again……..
Let us all take a deep breath. In reality, Mrs. Spath is not the only one soul that fell victim to this kind of ‘twisted mind’…….that we do not have to convert any longer to the One True Catholic Faith. THERE ARE MILLIONS!!! They are our relatives, friends and our neighbors. All around us people are dying as ‘pagans’, do to their hostility against Jesus Christ and His Church, do to their ignorance of seeking ‘truth’, do to the ‘grave failure of the Shepherds to feed the sheep’ with what was passed on to them from the time of the Apostles. Without pointing the finger (God Knows), everyday fallen away Catholics, Jews, Protestants, infidels die on account of ‘false charity’, or, ‘fear of being accused of anti-Semitism’s.
….from Mirari Vos of Pope Gregory XVI…..
…..afflicted as We are with so many trials, We must raise Our voice and attempt all things lest a wild boar from the woods should destroy the vineyard or wolves kill the flock. It is Our duty to lead the flock only to the food which is healthful. In these evil and dangerous times, the shepherds MUST NEVER neglect their duty; THEY MUST NEVER be so overcome by fear that they abandon the sheep. Let them NEVER neglect the flock and become sluggish from idleness and apathy……Let our vigilance be ONE and our effort United against the common enemies………”One Lord, One faith, One baptism” (Eph. 4:5), may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever……..without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate.” AMEN!
Yes, it is within the realm of metaphysical possibility that Sigrid Spath was lying. But what basis is there for seriously considering this? I really see none. And based on what we know of Joseph Ratzinger, his telling her what he supposedly told her, and for the reason stated that he supposedly told her fits like a glove with nearly 50 years of his writings and stated beliefs.
C Matt – There’s nothing convenient here, because there IS somebody we can turn to. How about the pope emeritus? Let him deny it and in effect call this woman untruthful. Or let him confirm it and give us one of his scandalous theological statements in the process of justifying what he said.
My first thought on was “this is horrific”!
My second thought happens to be very nicely summarized here:
http://mundabor.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/reading-benedict-through-francis/
Times have changed. I honestly am not sure that Vatican constitute the ‘reliable source” they may have been in past decades / centuries. The very way in which this scandal is so casually dropped, says something.
Pope Benedict XVI may not have been a St. Thomas Aquinas nor a Pope St. Pius X, but something smells here. Pray for this woman’s soul. Pray and do penance for our popes.
In Jesu et Maria.
But I mean.!!! it is really incredible that no one of you could think that what is writing is not true. But are we sure Benedict say that? and in that way? Is it really true? Humm……… I do not think so at all. and I do not belive it.
Do you people belive all what is writen in the jurnals? Oh well it is clear why there are such a lot of undocumented souls in this wordl
Can you imagine Fulton Sheen, who was famous for converting people to the Church, to say “oh no, Clare Booth Luce, don’t convert; you would do too much good helping your husband with Time magazine.” It’s utterly absurd. If he read this story, and if it is true, I am virtually positive he would be at a loss for words. The Rhine truly does leech into the Tiber as they say.
Having said that, I every hope that Ms. Spath is with God or at least in Purgatory. Yes I capitalized it because it’s a real place, like Manhattan. She very well could have had what is known as a baptism by desire – – especially if her desire to formally convert was put off somehow. It is true that the Church is necessary for salvation but none of us know where the dead are – – except the saints.
S Armaticus, I don’t know who is the source for Rorate Coeli. I tend not to notice things terribly easily, so it’s my fault for missing the clues or whatever. Would you please fill me in if you are able?
I don’t believe the story is far-fetched. I live on the West Coast US. We’ve been celebrating Luther here for years. We even have a ‘dual’ church—you’ll love the name: The Church of the At-One-Ment (atonement, if it isn’t obvious).My mother and friends attended a celebration of Luther (about 25 years back) that occurred at our cathedral, with the express purpose of challenging our archbishop, which she did.
So the Church has been very friendly to the heretics in my city, just not to us horrible SSPX-attending Catholics. Rome would also not accept the conversion of some Lutheran ministers from Sweden some years ago—they were told they did not neet to convert. So this is not new…..
meanwhile another lie exposed:
http://eponymousflower.blogspot.co.nz/2014/02/franciscans-of-immaculate-exonerated.html
volpi the wolf got it wrong. Will there be a public apology and a full restoration of the Franciscans of the Immaculate? Their publishing houses, their seminiaries?
Magdalen said: “”Mrs. Spath is not in heaven, nor will she ever be. Check”
Wow, God is on this blog to tell us who is in heaven or not!”
NO Magdalen. There is no need for God to be on this blog. All one needs to make that inference, is agree with the Catholic dogma that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
And that is the real hard one for the neocon/liberals to swallow.
But back to my main point, doesn’t it make all those who critisize the SSPX look disingenuous, not to mention silly.
“It”s ok to die a Lutheran, but don’t ever attend a SSPX chapel or you will go to hell” 😉
@jb:
“Jimmy, why don’t we all do some digging and see if the Rorate story was pure second hand gossip as you suggest. ”
## Since I posted, I find that Mundabor – who can hardly be described as an enthusiast for the Popes since V2 – has posted an article which says pretty much what I did, but in far more detail. Here’s the link:
http://mundabor.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/reading-benedict-through-franci/
So it seems that one is good company. He does a far better job of pointing out the difficulties with the story than I have done. Maybe you should say to Introibo what you’ve said to me – since he posts the same link.
—
“This pattern is familiar now. A credible source reveals something shocking about post V2 happening, faithful Catholics react with shock, and then the calvary ride in to say that the quote was probably dubious and look how mean those Catholics are. It’s happened about 35 times so far.”
—
Sorry, but I am simply not willing to believe every rumour that puts someone in a bad light merely because other bad things alleged of them are true. “Give a dog a bad name, and hang him”, describes the tendency to believe evil of those with “form” for saying or doing dodgy things, all too well; but it has nothing to do with Christianity. There are too many unanswered questions about this story for it to be credible – Mundabor does a very nice job of saying what they are.
A “credible source” – and what source is that ? – is no use if it is not itself reliable; so, is it reliable ? Honest & well-informed men are not infallible – with the best will in the world, they can still make mistakes, and unintentionally spread falsehoods when they misunderstand their sources, or are themselves mangled or garbled by third parties. A great deal of scholarly effort is spent on precisely such activities – “what every knows” is not infrequently based on confusion in the sources.
I have my own criticisms of the former Pope – which is a good reason to avoid multiplying them unnecessarily. It is not a legitimate mode of reasoning to say that because X has done bad stuff before, he is likely to be guilty as charged when next accused of bad stuff. And in any case, it is not good enough to accuse people if the bad stuff is probable, but not certain beyond all moral doubt. To accuse on those grounds, is against the virtues of charity & justice.
There is more than enough real bad stuff to be upset about as it is – if a story is, like this one, not altogether certain, should we not be glad to find that it might not be true ? Do we want it to be true ? Surely not !
@Rodj:
“Jimmy – Even if the Sigrid S. story is 100% nonsense, Joseph Ratzinger has a paper trail half a century long. His novelties are clearly documented, and there is more than ample basis to be sharply critical of him. We have the right to expect better from a Supreme Pontiff than dabbling in heterodoxy. Personally, I see no reason not to believe the story, and the former pope’s infatuations with all things ecumenical strengthens the credibility of the story.”
—
IOW, you don’t know the story is true. No-one in these comboxes does. If it is not true, “the paper trail half a century long”, however real, does not make it true. Does it follow that because a criminal has a list of convictions for one crime, he is therefore guilty of others crime he is accused of ? Probability is not certainty. There is no virtue in accusing someone who may be wholly innocent.
On an aside, can’t stop wondering about all those judgmental “who am I to judge” types? They’ve come out of the woodwork. 😉
But back to my point.
Is the story true?
Is the story false?
Can’t say for sure since one of the participants to that conversation is “on the other side”?
And I don’t expect that Fr. Lombardi can ‘splain this one away.
Fr.L can’t say it was not true, since the obvious follow-up question would be: “Does that mean that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church”
Fr. L can’t say it is true: for obvious reasons.
So we ended up with a “teachable moment”.
“Oh what a tangled web we weave when at first we practice to deceive”. !!!!!!! Sir Walter Scott Marmion.
But one thing is for sure. All the orgasmic hissy-fitting about the SSPX not agreeing to come under the conciliar church about this time last year and the validity of their sacraments is definitely looking stupid right about now.
Hey, I have an idea. Maybe Bishop Fellay should have told BXVI that he is really a Lutheran with an austere Calvinist streak, who believes everything the Catholic Church believed in 1962.
Yea, that’s the ticket.
Something else to think about.
The present bishop of Rome says: no no no, don’t proselytize. Just go out and meet your fellow man, get to know him.
Mrs Spath met Cardinal Ratzinger, got to know him, worked closely with him for many years and still died a Lutheran.
A harsh, but a fair assessment of the situation.
For those who still believe in the Catholic Magisterium, as it was taught until 1962, you have company. 🙂
Bumper crop of future priests taking up the cassock.
http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/sspx-seminarians-take-cassock-3220
Please keep these young men in your prayers.
St. Michael Archangel, ora pro nobis
Bishop Lefebvre, ora pro nobis.
Archbishop Lefebvre, sound shepherd gatherer of a scattered flock, pray for us.
dear S. Armaticus, thank you for this welcome update.
Jimmy,
I have not accused the former pope of anything. Sigrid S. made a statement about an encounter she had with Cardinal Ratzinger. I tentatively believe her, as I have no reason not to believe her. Do you know for sure she was untruthful?
Why are folks so uninterested in the truth – including Joseph Ratzinger himself? Yes, HE IS ALIVE. He can clear this up, can’t he? Why is he not calling a press conference to claim this is fictional nonsense and the woman is a liar? Why is he apparently remaining silent? Why is he apparently so unconcerned with this statement that has been made about him? Something presented by Vatican Radio?
I have every basis to tentatively assume this is true, while remaining open to evidence to the contrary.
Louie,
–
God has blessed you with a wonderful gift for distilling complex ideas into simple statements. You couldn’t have put it more succinctly and clearly: “the New Evangelization…has never been anything other than a program of social justice and religious diplomacy that is singularly focused on “human dignity.”
Rodj: No, we don’t have “her own testimony” – we have Vatican Radio (presumably) saying “according to her own testimony.” Classic hearsay. According to her own testimony WHERE, exactly? If the statement was obtained by VR through “her own testimony” why no cite or mention of from whence this testimony came (a diary, a note on a calendar, prior interview/speech, something). There is no need to believe she is lying because, at this point, we only have VR’s word that this actually transpired – no one else’s. Do you believe it is impossible that Msgr. Backstabber or Cdl. Moderninst is beyond planting this entire bug in someone’s ear hoping it finds its way to the printed page? Maybe it’s my American legal training, but without something better documented, innocent until at least some solid evidence of guilt. With all the craziness going on in the heirarchy right now, I am just a little skeptical.
C Matt, her own testimony is not “hearsay.” What you’re trying to say is that Vatican Radio made up her testimony or got it wrong somehow. Please get the terms straight.
For those interested, New Catholic who broke the story on the Rorate Caeli blog addresses several issues about the breaking of the story on the Mundabor blog. Link here: http://mundabor.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/reading-benedict-through-francis/
In the 2007 book “Frauen im Vatikan” (Women in the Vatican) by Gudrun Sailer (a journalist at Radio Vatican), Mrs. Spath was one of the featured women working in the Vatican. On page 91 of the German version one can read the story about Cardinal Ratzinger telling her not to convert. This is probably the source for Radio Vatican’s article as it is a nearly identical quote. As the book was published at a time when Ratzinger was still the pope and the story has never been refuted, it is quite clear that the story is obviously true.
http://gudrunsailer.com/Gudrun%20Sailer-Frauen%20im%20Vatikan.html
I’m not entirely sure if heresiarch Martin Luther ever made this statement (although I have a vague recollection of having read this somewhere) but in any case his diabolical gospel can be summed up as follows:
–
“Sin valiantly, only have an unshakeable faith.”
cardula,
Thank you for providing this (very sad but not entirely surprising) reference / supporting information.
I maintain that in spite of the times or the circumstances, we _all_ need to always remain above reproach in our conduct and assessments, and as such, also remain duly vigilant, prudent and thorough (and humble), lest unintended rashness or imprudence ever be able to be used for ill against us all — by our true and common enemy. Just a thought for the day. 🙂
A blessed feast of St. Agatha / St. Titus to all here!
@Rodj
“Jimmy,
I have not accused the former pope of anything. Sigrid S. made a statement about an encounter she had with Cardinal Ratzinger. I tentatively believe her, as I have no reason not to believe her. Do you know for sure she was untruthful?
Why are folks so uninterested in the truth”
—
## Stop right there.
–
1. “I tentatively believe her, as I have no reason not to believe her.”
.
## Fair enough – but tentative belief is not conviction; to be tentative in belief, is to be open to the possibility that one’s belief may be mistaken. It is not certainty. And this lack of certainty is precisely why I refuse to accept as a certainty something that is not certain. When a man’s character is involved, it is even more important not to believe evil of him without certainty.
.
2. People are not “uninterested in the truth” – some of us just happen not to be convinced that these allegations are true. Unless they are shown to be true, there is no compelling reason to accept them as true. But that has yet to be shown. Therefore, it is too early to say that the allegation is true. To imply that people are “uninterested in the truth” just because they are not willing to accept unproven and hostile allegations that are damaging to a third party, is not a good thing to say. Would they themselves like it, if unproven and hostile allegations directed against them were believed without being questioned ? Then why should someone else be treated in that way ? Some of us like something a little more solid than rumour. Hostile interpretations of what *might* be perfecty innocent, or mangled, or invented out of thin air, are no foundation whatever for believing the worst of someone.
I don’t think we are that far apart. What Introibo says, I could not agree with more:
“I maintain that in spite of the times or the circumstances, we _all_ need to always remain above reproach in our conduct and assessments, and as such, also remain duly vigilant, prudent and thorough (and humble), lest unintended rashness or imprudence ever be able to be used for ill against us all. ”
.
Kudos to him for saying that.
wewjude: interesting link.
did he convert or didn’t he? if he didn’t it shows how the protestant who deems himself a friend of Christ feels no compunction to enter into His Church, His Rock. this is dearly sad. although from the article one could take the view that Ratzinger specifically was merely acceding to the free will of the Calvinist to refuse the Truth, it seems this acquiescence has turned into, for the wider Church, obsession. Yet if it is a fact the he was given communion by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger himself, at the funeral Mass for pope Karol Wojtyla, this is not charity but scandal – unless he had converted.
“I found my identity as a Christian by reconciling within myself the faith of my origins and the mystery of the Catholic faith, without breaking communion with anyone.”
this sort of nowhere talk says nothing. it’s like don’t ask, don’t tell, ’cause there’s a big dirty secret being whitewashed.
I appreciate all of the responses here, but it looks like the conclusion to this post bears repeating:
Whether or not the story is entirely accurate isn’t the point. No one can know that with 100% certainty. As I said, the simple fact that Vatican Radio is reporting this story as if it is anything other than a terrible scandal tells the tale either way.
Imagine a prominent protestant claiming that any of the pre-conciliar popes instructed him or her to remain among the heretics in order to “do more good.” The claim alone would have caused a firestorm and deservedly so.
In 2014, however, wherein the current pope actively encourages Muslims to cling to the Qur’an, it’s just another happy New Springtime day. That, my friends, is the real point.
So, we, the frogs in the pot have reached boiling temperature. how tricky are our ‘betters’.
The whole phenomenon is an offshoot of the concept of “religious liberty” enshrined in V2, which was vociferously opposed in the original schemas and on the floor of St. Peter’s by Ottaviani and others, who called for a doctrine of religious toleration, so as not to appear to endorse indifferentism, which is what has now, de facto, happened.
Rorate Caeli confirms that the story is by the very women herself in her own book ‘Frauen im Vatikan’:
[http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02/follow-up-on-sigrid-spath-and-note-on.html]
Sorry, in a book by Gudrun Sailer
Louie,
As one who did comment around “did it _actually_ happen?” (I believe we need to be especially prudent and on our guard in these times), I certainly concur regarding your follow up comment here about the “conclusion”. Yes, that Vatican Radio would even report such a shocking and scandalous news piece _and_ in such a fashion(!!), is in _itself_ truly horrendous, and we cannot allow ourselves to ever become indifferent, nor tolerant or accepting of it! So sad…
@ Introibo.
Pavlovian, isn’t it?
Come to think of it, that would be a good way to describe this papacy.
But there is light at the end of the tunnel.
TLM in Che’s backyard. Link here:
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-traditional-mass-in-cuba.html
This one for the “Time is running out for the conciliar church” category:
http://www.pblosser.blogspot.com/2014/02/men-will-completely-disappear-from.html.
Unintended consequences?
And this one for the “the Lord works in mysterious ways” category. Original VII schemas (the ones suppressed by the modernists/liberals surfaced and are being translated. 🙂 Link here:
http://www.pblosser.blogspot.com/2014/02/fr-komonchaks-english-translations-of.html.
The logical inference on could make is as follows: the Holy Spirit has allowed for the Bride of Christ to pick up where She left off prior to the Great Chastisement. I propose that we begin preparing for the Council of Econe where these schemas should be accepted and propagated to the “peripheries” of God’s creation. 🙂
Great clip from Malachi Martin+ pertaining to the Judas Complex.
http://www.pblosser.blogspot.com/2014/02/wheres-oath-against-modernism-when-we.html
REQUIEM aeternam dona ei, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat ei. Requiescat in pace.
@S.Armaticus
again, brilliant links.
God Bless.
S. Armaticus said:
For those interested, New Catholic who broke the story on the Rorate Caeli blog addresses several issues about the breaking of the story on the Mundabor blog. Link here: http://mundabor.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/reading-benedict-through-francis/
————–
Folks, the story was reported years ago: Rorate did not “break it”; the news here is that New Catholic has finally opened his eyes and shaken off his idolatrous devotion to Ratzinger, whom he heretofore refrained from criticizing for the modernist that he is.
@ Catholic at Rome,
Touche!
with respect to NC opening his eyes about Benedict, an old song comes to mind that goes something like this: “If you can be with the one you love, love the one your with”.
Louie’s point, of course, is well taken, even if somehow this were not true.
But, lo and behold, we now have some further sourcing from Rorate Caeli, reproduced below. To the skeptics, it’s really time to face what is as opposed to what you might like. It’s not supposed to be about whether we want it to be true or not. It’s supposed to be about whether it is true or not.
From Rorate Caeli:
We have received confirmation that the source for the Vatican Radio report on the non-conversion of Vatican German-language translator Sigrid Spath was… none other than Sigrid Spath herself. She was the one who revealed the information to Vatican Radio journalist and author Gudrun Sailer, in a book called Frauen im Vatikan (Women in the Vatican), published in 2008 and dedicated to portraits of women working in the Vatican. The exact same story was told by Spath to Sailer and is available on page 91 of the book.
Since the Vatican Radio story is written by “GS” (those responsible for Vatican Radio items are usually identified in the bottom, after “RV”, for Radio Vaticana, and the date of the item), it is quite likely that the Sunday report which we translated in part was written by the book author herself. If there are any doubts on the veracity of the story, one may just find out about it from Sailer herself.
PBXVI was/is counter ‘cultural’. would Frnfrst give the hungry lambs SP? the Q. is rhetorical.
Lord wash the scales of satanic PR from our eyes.
I know that Pope Francis can be quite unsettling, to say the least, but for the life of me, I have never understood why so many traditionalists continue to cling to Ratzingerism as though it somehow is our great hope.
Yes, Sumorum Pontificam and the lifting of the SSPX excommunications were valued, positive developments for which Pope Benedict XVI will always deserve some credit. But that doesn’t change his overall coloration, and the truly difficult and disturbing things our former pope has said and stood for during the entire duration of his ministry going back more than half a century.
We need to face the truth. The hard truth. And ALL of it, every single solitary sordid morsel. And that includes the fact that Pope Benedict XVI was different only by degree, not by kind, in comparison to Paul VI, John Paul II and Francis.
Thank you, Rodj, for the reminder. Modernism has infected *all* the popes of the past 50+ years.
As one of those who is not conviced of the accuracy of the statement (not the reporting, but whether the person accurately recalls or accurately understood what, if anything, Benedict may have told her or meant by it), Louie’s point is well taken. I am just not a big fan of “he said, she said” stories – I would rather look to a person’s own writings/recorded statements to evaluate him. But, yes, that a story like this is printed not as a scandal, but as a compliment, is the real problem.
I have never understood why so many traditionalists continue to cling to Ratzingerism as though it somehow is our great hope
Not as a great hope, but at least the best hope of the last 50 years. My own personal opinion of him is that he, like others, drank the V II cool-aid, but at least he is somewhat losing the buzz, and maybe even feels the dawning of a slight hangover, and tried to slowly and gently apply the brakes. Maybe too little, too late, but at least “some movement in the right direction,” as he might say. Like an addict, you have to slowly reduce the dependency lest you freak out the patient and lose him altogether.
Rodj…….Thanks you.
The truth is that many traditionals are also ‘blind’, and ‘knuckleheads’…….they are also carried away by ‘false emotions”, who said what, and what have you. They do not ‘hear’ nor ‘see’, what those who have been faithful Soldiers of Christ, the persecuted………..by the grace of God, have perserevered while fighting the good fight for His Truth. They read so many great books, articles written by true Children of God, and ‘yet’, they are falling into reading too much of so many different opinions, which does nothing but cause confusion and even ‘error’ in their hearts This is the snare of the devil, that many fall into.
Only the Mass of All Time can renew the earth, renew the hearts of the ‘harden-hearts’ to holiness in the holy Church. Our grief is that this is where the popes of the conciliar Church have failed……… to worship and honour God in this Most Holy Mass…..One should wonder no more…….the consequences are ‘grave’……..Ave Maria!
c matt, I do not know that I share your general assessment of Pope Benedict XVI, assuming that I am reading you correctly.
He may have some misgivings here and there, and some apprehension about unintended consequences, fair enough. But in certain key areas, he is rigidly wed to the doctrinal revisionisms that have engulfed the Church. I consider his New Year’s 2011 address on religious freedom to be nothing short of appalling. No movement of improvement in his thought here whatsoever; if anything, in that address, he went beyond Second Vatican and turned the terrible into the horrific. Second Vatican, mind you, looked relatively conservative, compared to his address. As it does in comparison to his ecumenical and interfaith statements, including the convening of Assisi III.
Coming to a country near you, Cardinal prosecuted for homophobia. Link here:
http://eponymousflower.blogspot.com/2014/02/here-we-go-first-time-cardinal-is.html
And if I understand the article correctly, the Christian Democrats voted against the Cardinal.
The takeaway, the new springtime that VII brought about in the Church has brought the Bride of Christ full circle to the age of Tiberius during the span of 50 years. No wonder the conciliar church has a fascination with the Christianity of the 1st century. They are preparing themselves, and the rest of us for that matter, to relive it.
“If I be asked what sign we may look for,” wrote the great Hilaire Belloc, in Survivals and New Arrivals, “to show that the advance of the Faith is at hand, I would answer by a word the modern world has forgotten: Persecution. When that shall once more be at work it will be morning.”
Link here: http://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/233-what-would-jesus-do-with-the-sspx
Man your battle stations.