This past Sunday at St. Alphonsus in Baltimore, we had visitors on hand from St. Joseph’s parish in Williamsburg, PA.
Our pastor, Monsignor Arthur Bastress, let us know that the group (50+ people) had made the roughly three hour journey as part of their yearly tradition of making a pilgrimage to an historic church.
With men like St. John Neumann and Blessed Francis Xavier Seelos at one time having served as its rector, to say nothing of the art and architecture, St. Alphonsus certainly qualifies.
Monsignor Bastress also indicated that Fr. Aron Maghsoudi, the pastor of St. Joseph’s, deliberately arranged for their visit to coincide with the offering of the Traditional Latin Mass.
While it’s always a good thing for people who may not be very familiar with the Traditional Mass to have an opportunity to experience it, especially in a place like St. Alphonsus, I had mixed emotions about the whole thing.
At St. Alphonsus, High Mass is sung just every other Sunday during the school year; i.e., not at all during the summer months, so this past Sunday was a low Mass.
Admittedly, I have no idea to what extent the group from St. Joseph’s, where the Traditional Mass is not part of their regular Mass schedule, was given liturgical instruction specific to the Low Mass prior to their visit. Even so, I can’t help but imagine that many of them, likely unaware of just how much liturgical treasure was unceremoniously stolen from them and their children thanks to Anibale Bugnini and Blessed Pope Paul the Destroyer, walked away from Sunday’s Mass thanking God for the Novus Ordo.
The truth of the matter that our “want-it-now-and-make-it-easy” culture doesn’t welcome is that the Traditional Mass asks much more of those who wish to assist at this liturgy than does the Novus Ordo, and for a simple reason – the latter is very much a product of this world comfortably focused on man; the former, an encounter with the ineffable God before whom the human being naturally trembles.
Little do most Catholics know that the Mass of Ages remains the Mass, much less that there can be no doubt whatsoever that history will judge the Novus Ordo as but an unwelcome usurper crafted by wicked men whom God simply allowed to do evil.
In any event, it would have been much better for our visitors had they arrived on a Sunday when High Mass was celebrated as even those who lack liturgical formation are often moved very deeply by the magnificence of its sacred signs.
In thinking of these things it occurred to me just how sad the state of affairs is in the Church today as the Mass of Ages (in spite of the fruits of Summorum Pontificum, deficiencies and all) is still very much treated and experienced by many as some sort of museum piece.
In some places, like my own archdiocese, this would actually be an upgrade. Here, the Traditional Mass is treated, for all intents and purposes, like an unwanted step child.
The Archdiocese of Baltimore – the first diocese established in the United States, and home to more than half-a-million Catholics – boasts of just two regularly scheduled Latin Masses – count ‘em, 1, 2 – one of them at St. Alphonsus in Baltimore at 11:30 am; the other some 75 miles away in Hagerstown at 12:50 pm.
That’s it.
There really is no excuse for this blatant deprivation of spiritual goods; no more than there would be for a wealthy man who, though in possession of a storehouse of nutritious food, insists on serving his children McDonalds at 99% of their meals.
And to be clear, the problem here isn’t a lack of qualified priests either.
I personally know of several priests in this archdiocese who are able to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass.
A few years ago, I even became aware (firsthand) that two of them (one being a pastor) celebrated the Latin Mass on their days off, privately, with invitations for the laity to assist being spread only by word of mouth.
If that’s not a sure sign of an unhealthy local church, nothing is. (The missing ingredient in this bitter stew couldn’t be more obvious.)
All of this said, even if our guests from Pennsylvania were otherwise lost in Catholicland for much of the Mass, at least they were treated to a rather timely Gospel reading unlike the one that was read to their friends at the all-too-ordinary rite back home.
At that time, Jesus said to His disciples: “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. By their fruits you shall know them…
Coming as this Gospel did in the midst of Jorge’s Latin American Adventure, I’m pretty certain that I wasn’t the only one in the pews who thought first and foremost of our current pope at these words; even if the pilgrims from PA weren’t among them.
Dear Louie,
We know the feeling regarding second-class treatment. But don’t underestimate the power of God’s Graces at a low Mass. Our first TLM experiences were similar. The key was having free copies of the Latin-English “booklet missal” available. All it took was one reading of the prayers, to be drawn back again and again.
We are convinced that if it is God’s will, nothing is going to stop the Latin Mass from becoming the most beloved Liturgy once again, and we will all be going in unto the altar of God Who gives joy to our youth. 🙂 🙂
This past father’s day was my ten year anniversary of my first Latin mass. I was totally lost, but was hooked from the get-go. It just so happened the traveling statue of Our Lady of Fatima was there. A month earlier on the Feast Day of Our Lady of Fatima I had made a Marian consecration. There are no coincidences. She brought me there, and I’ll be eternally grateful.
We should not ordinarily appeal to ones baser nature when evangelizing. However, at the risk of being imputed as hypocrites, but somewhat similar to the method used by St. Paul in attempting to arouse the jealousy of his fellow Jews when he turned his skills of proselytism to the Gentiles, we ought to declare unabashedly, but with some justification, this:
“The Novus Ordo mass is for plebs.”
Louie, I feel just the same when we have visitors to our FSSP parish – and the Mass is a Low one! I’m always wishing it were the High Mass later on in the morning which is filled to the brim with many, many large families – all the little darlings lined up on the seats – and quiet as church-mice.
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Funny you mentioned the reading: Our priest is not one to give a meek and mild sermon and this reading brought out his best – he always quotes the Fathers, and Doctors of the Church, and doesn’t just stand there and blah, blah his own thoughts or how this reading relates to something that happened to him when he was a boy for 15 minutes either. His sermons are reasoned and passionate. Anyway, at the chit-chat after Mass he told us that a man had walked out during the sermon!!! Some poor little chap from out of town just couldn’t take it – that there are actually shepherds out there, priests and bishops who (according to our pastor) don’t do their jobs!!!! Too much!! I’m outta here!
“Et plebs tua laetabitur in te.”
Couldn’t let that one go!
In my diocese the only Mass which I can attend is the NO one.
If I wish to attend TLM, I have a round trip of 170 miles.
Don’t be too hard on those of us who can only attend TLM irregularly.
Touche’.
Good one. 🙂 🙂
It’s important to realize this is true for many people.
The Offertory prayer for this past Sunday (the Seventh Sunday after Pentecost) was:
Dan. 3,40. As in holocausts of rams and bullocks, and as in thousands of fat lambs, so let our sacrifice be made in Your sight this day, that it may please You: for there is no confusion to those who trust in You O Lord.
Want to give you some hope, Louie:+) Yes, my first experience of the TLM was the High Mass, a video given to me by a friend. I watched it in awe and thought it the most beautiful thing I had ever seen. When I went online and sought the TLM I could only find the Low Mass at first, but I STILL loved it. I actually prefer the Low Mass, the quiet gives me time to absorb the immensity of what is occurring. Trust that God brought a bunch of people who will love the Low Mass as much as me:+) It’s not just the frills that attract but the ORDER and Orientation and so many other beautiful things that make the TLM the Mass of the Ages:+) God bless~
For those who cannot attend in person:
http://www.livemass.net/LiveMass/home.html
also, the IMass app for smart phones and tablets
The vast majority of Catholics do not have access to the Traditional Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
Wonderful. Yes, Our Lady brought you there!
Eight years after SP, most dioceses in the world do not have even one Traditional Sunday Mass. Many countries do not have it. Most dioceses in Ireland do not have the Traditional Mass of the Church every Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation. Diabolic. And there is no conspiracy against it??!!!
I think many priests still fear repercussions, so are just so busy they can’t even think about adding “something else,” or learning “something new.” I pray the new generation take the bull by the horns, or by the b***s and make it happen.
By the way, did you hear about the OF and EF that went into a bar? The OF said, I must decrease so He can increase!
Of course this is very true and those of us who have been given this great gift realize that many have only the NO mass to attend. All this goes to show what a huge educational effort it’s going to take to bring Catholics to a proper understanding of what the Mass really is.
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If Catholics only truly understood that we offer Jesus to The Father, as He offers Himself in the Mass every single NO church would have to shut down because everyone would have driven that 170 mile roundtrip.
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Please know that we who have the Tridentine Mass never criticize those who don’t.
Dear Barbara,
We have great appreciation for the TLM and regularly make long drives to attend it. But we also attend N.O. Masses, and what we have trouble understanding is why you would say what you did here about Jesus being offered to the Father at every Mass, as if that is not also what happens at every N.O. Mass as well as every TLM. There are other major differences including the quality of teaching in the prayers and the built-in reverence in receiving Communion that make the TLM far superior in our opinion, but that is not one of them, as it is made clear in many of the prayers and responses.
I think most priests are complete wastes who never had any intent of defending the Faith no matter what. They are nothing more then liberal social workers who bow down to the false vatican 2 religion. How many priests out there are speaking out against, and anathematizing in their homilies, the entirety of the vatican 2 apostacy? Any sspx guys doing that? Any fssp guys doing that (lol)? Its a joke at this point.
Dear rich,
We happened to be travelling last weekend to a family Baptism out of State, and on the way, found ourselves having to attend Mass at a parish that had that modernist “look” we always dread. To our shocked delight, the homily consisted of numerous strong reminders that it’s not enough for us to feed the hungry and do nice projects–as many Catholics do. We have to stand up against SIN even if it means friends and relatives get mad at us–because that’s what our Baptismal and Confirmation promises are all about, and that’s what’s missing our society today. Judging ACTIONS is not the same as sinful judging, it’s a necessity.
___
It was a reminder that to us that God is still reaching people and continues to draw all men to Himself making use of everything–even the evils in the news, to do it. Who knows how many are waking up right now, as we discuss the Pope’s latest scandals, or whether this Synod will be the modernists’ “last stand”?
Being realistic, we see many problems. Being Faithful, we trust God can still accomplish what seems impossible.
We live in a little town outside of Calgary (which is a big city, for Canada, of about one million) and in that entire big city there is only ONE parish that has theTLM. And it is offered either VERY early in the morning or smack in the middle of the day. It is quite a long drive for us and quite crazy times of day, but we go about every other week (begrudgingly doing the NO the other times). We would gladly attend the one Calgary SSPX chapel, except that it is an even further drive away for us. Sometimes my husband and I fantasize about retiring to a nice SSPX community slightly north of us, Rocky Mountain House, and living just up the street from that church. They even have a trad school, we hear. It would be lovely to be surrounded by like-minded people. I don’t know other trads. Because when we drive to the TLM it is just others who have all driven in from far off and don’t live anywhere near each other, and are strangers to each other. At least I have a good friend that is a fully practicing novus ordite (practicing ALL six precepts). Do you know how rare that is?? She must be the only one like that in novus ordo land. I am lucky to know her. Sigh. I wish I knew some trads in real life, and not just online. I feel so alone. Well… I do have my husband and my son. That God we have each other.
I agreed that all novus ordo priests are like this. Have you read “Goodbye Good Men”? I think it is by Michael Rose… If I am remembering correctly. Illustrates how all NO seminaries are just chock full of homos and communists and heretics… So that is what they produce as priests. And that’s what I see too. But I think that there are still good priests from trad seminaries. The FSSP homilies I hear seem great!
I reckon the lack of the ‘traditional Mass’ in the Novus Ordo is no mystery, and likewise the distaste of Novus Ordites for the ‘extraordinary form’. The Novus Ordo rite is the N.O. rite – they go together. One could say they belong together. The so-called extraordinary form is the Roman Rite, it belongs to something other than the Novus Ordo, it belongs to the Roman Catholic Church of ‘eternal Rome’.
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The issue of ‘eternal Rome’ and transient Novus Ordo Rome can’t be made to meet happily. One is a rock, the other is wave rolling over the rock.
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In his 2005 address, Benedict defending the rupture that is Vatican II and its fruits: “By defining in a new way the relationship between the faith of the Church and some essential elements of modern thinking, the Second Vatican Council revised and even corrected some past decisions.” He is saying that the Church that preceded him and his confreres made false definitions that only the contemporary Novus Ordite can correct. The Novus Ordo is therefore, simply a correction of the Roman Rite – the Mass of all ages. Those who understand this naturally recoil from the Roman Rite.
Speaking of both the TLM and Jorge Bergoglio…
Bergoglio worries about “the risk of the ideologization of the Vetus Ordo”.
What does he mean by “ideologization”? Well, Bergoglio has also said that “[e]ngaging in dialogue does not mean renouncing our own ideas and traditions, but the claim that they alone are valid or absolute”. And TLM-goers are certain that Catholicism is the one true religion.
What does Bergoglio think about truth versus heresy? He asks:
“How is it, though, that he, who yesterday was a heretic, is today a Blessed of the Church? It is because yesterday, those who had power wanted to silence him because they did not like what he was saying”.
And Bergoglio? What does he feel like saying?
“I feel like saying something that may sound controversial, or even heretical, perhaps”.
What unites all these thoughts? I would say, that Bergoglio does not believe Catholicism is objectively and demonstrably true, and worries about those who do.
Typo. I meant “Thank God we have each other.” Typing on a tiny phone screen is hard.
We are a tiny scattered remnant and yes, we are all suffering terribly, in this Great Apostasy. It is great you have your husband and son to give each other support and consolation. Try to get to know the other people after Mass. Suggest going to lunch together, for example. You are truly blessed to be able to regularly attend the Traditional Mass on the Lords Day. God bless you.
The FSSP is a vatican 2 order. Thanks to the horrible guidance of an FSSP priest, with the blessing of his superior (Fr. Flood, who told my 18 year old son on the phone that divorce was an option) my family was destroyed. Be wary of them….they are wolves.
TLM Catholic is better than the NO Catholic.
That’s the real gist of what Barbara and several others are saying.
Of course judgements by Barbara and others are wholly inaccurate and untrue. But even if they recognise that their claim is inaccurate and untrue, they would never admit so publicly.
The boundary between zeal and judgmentalism is a hard one to negotiate.
You can attend TLM at Harrington St in Dublin every Sunday at 10.30am.
You can attend TLM at The Crescent in Limerick every Sunday too.
In Cork City, you can attend TLM too.
You’re correct that TLM is not celebrated in Ireland but there are several places where you can attend and which are relatively proximate to your location.
Carpooling is one option.
Train services to Dublin/Limerick/Cork is another option.
You can write to your bishop/archbishop asking him to consider allowing the concelebration of TLM in your diocese, in order to allow those who wish to attend to do so.
I wrote to our bishop and he said that he would give serious consideration to the matter.
If you don’t ask, you can’t expect to receive.
Easy now, IF. It’s not that good. Michaeli’s use of the word “plebs”. which I assume is commonly used in the TLM liturgy, is Church Latin carrying the meaning of “chosen people” with it. My use of it is akin to the modern English and ancient Roman use of it where it means commoner in the derogatory sense. Let’s face it, “we shall know them by their fruits”: the Novus Ordo liturgy is a watered down liturgy producing “socialized”. watered down, and therefore, neutered Catholics.
Michaeli’s response was intended to be witty and charming. As for both of yours, IF, only God knows.
Dear Mr Morphy, Yes, thanks, I’m aware of the very few locations with Traditional Sunday Mass over the whole of Ireland. There are also many countries that have none at all. Most Catholics don’t even know that they are entitled to have it available to them. And there was clearly a general determination not to inform and educate Catholics on the Traditional Mass and that it was to be made available to them. People need to be taught about the Traditional Mass first, and told of its availability, in order for them to be able to access it. God bless.
And I happened to sign a letter to a bishop on this matter recently.
rich,
We make the observation that your first sentence is key. IOW, the FSSP functions within VII Modernism-the heresy- now hundreds of years old. This is an objective statement, bc Modernism is like a virus, constantly mutating in order to attack, especially priests, more effectively. The FSSP was formed via JPII’s reaction to Archbishop Lefebvre, whom we personally knew & loved. Ironically, Lefebvre addressed often how numerous issues continuously diverted attention from the real problem–yes, Modernism.
Dear Indignus,
In answer to your statement that you pray FOR Bergoglio and not WITH him you are incorrect. The Te Igitur is a very complicated prayer, both grammatically and theologically. Bishop Sanborn and Fr. Cekada have both delved deeply into this matter and explain from Catholic doctrine how one expresses unity with and therefore prays WITH the Pope, when his name is inserted in the canon.
The matter of the “una cum” mass is of grave concern to sedevacantists, who are forbidden by Catholic doctrine from assisting at any mass, be it NO, motu, SSPX, FSSP, or “independent”, where the name of a heretic is inserted in the canon.
For any who might be interested in learning about the “una cum” mass, I give the link to Fr. Cekada’s article here and to Bishop Sanborn’s as a P.S. to avoid my comment being blocked as spam. http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/SedesUnCum.pdf
Bishop Sanborn:
http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=46&catname=12
We are living in a “ME” world—(think “selfies”). The N.O. mass is “Me-centered”. The TLM is “God-centered”. It is very difficult to break through this kind of mentality. The “presider” is so cute–the homily is funny. It is a relaxed anything goes environment. The TLM requires stepping out of yourself and entering into the supernatural. It is not impossible, just very difficult! The world is thirsting for this, but doesn’t know it. They think the next app on their smart phone will fill the never-ending void.
Fr Paul Kramer…..The 1565 Profession of Faith of Pope Pius IV, also known as the “Tridentine Profession of Faith,” binds the Catholic to his traditional rites, to the “received and approved rite.” One must embrace and adhere to the received and approved customary rites of the Church. This is the faith. Therefore, the creation of the Novus Ordo is contrary to the defined dogma of the faith, contrary to the faith solemnly professed in the profession of the Popes, contrary to the Tridentine Profession of Faith.
” We cannot say that Quo Primum is merely a disciplinary decree. It is disciplinary, of course, it refers to discipline. But it is a disciplinary decree based on dogma. It is rooted in dogma and therefore, it has a much greater force than something merely disciplinary”.
http://www.catholictradition.org/Eucharist/quo-primum.htm
I live in a tiny town in North Ontario, no TLM here either, Katherine Elisabeth,- have a decent upright priest, born and raised in this town. My own family do not understand why I kneel when I do, why I cover my head, why I go to Adoration several times a week -we have Perpetual Adoration here. I too feel the same, wishing I had true Trad friends, but remind myself my best friends are the angels and saints in Heaven, there is no comparison. My lonliness and isolation are a sacrifice for me to give to God and a reminder to follow Him. He is all that matters.
Pope Honorius was posthumously condemned as a heretic by a Church Council. I don’t recall any priest or bishop being condemned for not excluding his name from the canon of the mass. I get the argument.
I get the same sinking feeling in my gut at that point as I follow along in the missal. What can we do. At this point in time the Lord is allowing this to happen. When the Lord wants Francis gone, he’ll be gone.
The same Quo Primum that guarantees a priest the right to same the true mass, prevents him from eliminating the pope’s name from the canon. What that gone, the Church has to act. I’m afraid we’re gonna have to wait til the other side of the Chastisement for that to happen.
This whole situation is a nightmare, getting worse by the day. I already suspect Benedict may actually be the pope and Francis an anti-pope at this point, but thats not really the issie with sede folk. If this pope winds up making a blatantly false ex cathedra statement contradicting defined dogma, then let’s talk. I don’t think for a second that’s outside the realm of possibility with Francis.
Typo of there. “What that gone” should be “Want him gone?”
On the other hand, maybe it’s better for the mass “tourists” that they didn’t hear (the 88 year old) Msgr Bastress singin’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fawYOxO875s
When Msgr goes on to meet his maker, maybe you can roam on over to Christ the King Roamin’ Catholic parish in Townsend where the married Ed Meeks presides. “Father Meeks, like a third of his congregation, grew up Catholic (also attended seminary but left (not sure how long) before ordination)… The most important allowance is that priests who move from the Anglican to Catholic church can still be married, per special dispensation from the Vatican. Meeks has been married for 41 years to wife Jan, who serves as his secretary…. In January, Meeks was given the green light to head to St. Mary’s Seminary in Houston for a weekend retreat then came home for 13 weeks of training “to kind of round out our catholic theology to address those issues of Catholic formation that might be lacking,” he said. … The Anglican church has faced some splits in the last several years over social issues, including the election of the first gay bishop in 2003. However, Meeks said Christ the King’s move was based merely out of a desire for apostolic authority.” [But he came to my attention via email from anti-contraception (4 kids in 41 years) ‘prolife’ Catholics because of his eloquent and forceful sermon after Supreme Court decision on ‘same sex’ marriage.]
http://patch.com/maryland/towson/a-homecoming-for-christ-the-king-church
To attend a Diocesan or FSSP tridentine mass: 1. one must profess pope’s/ committee’s ability to change the mass at any time because the changes to 1962 including to the canon and removal of 2nd Confiteor are accepted as well as receiving communion in the hand if one wishes, use of extraordinary ministers of the eucharist if priest wishes, use of altar girls etc.,; 2. one must profess that the 1969 mass is a true mass (i.e. that the sacrament is confected and the sacrifice of calvary re-presented) which makes the Tridentine mass simply another ‘option’ truly as if it’s the ‘d’ version of the Novus Ordo or like heterosexual marriage or having children. 3. One must also accept ALL the other changes of the VCII sect such as immodest dress at mass (your choice), rules of fasting (none) Lent or communion; NO teaching [see recent post at Rorate on modest dress for women or Meeks sermon “defending” ‘true’ marriage — the standard for modest dress is never given and Meeks states church will continue to teach true marriage w/out ever stating what true marriage is (and also by never stating opposite states that church will comply w/the “law of the land” as Wuerl puts it).
My father became a Roamin’ Catholic when crucifix was removed from Holy Redeemer College Park (unfortunately, my mother took him back there Pentecost 2006 because that’s where we went and he wanted to go when he found out it was Pentecost; I thought he wanted to go because he was always so concerned w/honoring God and this was a high holy day but when the elderly Fr. Wilkinson (married father of 12 who was new at that time) saw my Dad and me walking into the Church while my mom parked the car I found out why he wanted to attend at Pentecost–Fr.Wilkinson came and said to ME, “I want to anoint him.” Of course, I did not respond since my dad was able to speak for himself. My dad didn’t look up from his walker (which I knew was a bad sign). Fr. Wilkinson merely went into the church and came out carrying a bench over his head. Neither my dad nor me laughed, but my dad who always taught me to respect priests (even when you no longer consider them to be priests) went over there and received the last rites while people streamed into the church for mass. I went inside and when my mom arrived from parking the car and wanted to know where my dad was, I told her Fr. Wilkinson was anointing him. She was glad because that “took the cat off her back” regarding whether or not to call a priest to give him the last rites (who knew if one of these modern priests would come or if they would upset him). After mass started, the 70+ Fr. Wilkinson brought my dad in, and then he came behind the pew and said to ME, “He never said a word.” Going home, I said to my dad, Fr. Wilkinson said you didn’t say anything. Before my dad could respond, my mom exclaimed, “You didn’t?!” As if he’d just inexplicably blown his only chance to get shriven. “How did you get away with that? I wonder if I could get away with that.” My father laughed and said, “I bet you could.” And that was the end of that until my father’s death bed, at a military hospital, when the priest arriving after my father’s death heatedly asked me why I hadn’t called him sooner. My mother said to him, “I called you.” I would never even have called a priest (and neither would any of my siblings), because I thought there was no such thing as extreme-unction–there was the anointing of the sick (?!). Anyway, it did come to me though why father had gone to church on Pentecost and how the Holy Ghost did come out to answer him–as He will to all who seek Him w/a sincere heart.
When my father became a Roamin’ Catholic, my mother said there is one the thing about the Catholic Church or there is nothing about the Catholic Church it doesn’t matter where you go it is all the same (one faith). I believe that is true and like Peter I went there for many years as my father did because where else was there for us to go. However, like my father, I found out when you seek Him, He will come to get you. There is at least one other Latin Mass in Baltimore. It is a low mass (I wonder what the tourists would do if suddenly they found themselves at the foot of the cross at calvary) mostly and may not be convenient (lost 1/2 its parishioners to St Alphonsus high ‘mass’. But you will be taught the faith and you will worship God as the Church has always done and you will receive the sacrament (and also confession) from a true priest formed in the true faith which he will defend with his life if necessary.
Dear tmarie,
We feel the same, and due to a lot of rejection over the years from people–even close family members who surprised us by looking upon the true Faith as some sort of a weird cult , we fully understand having the angels and saints as close friends. But in a way that opened us to learning more about them and how they lived, which gave us a better understanding of how Catholics are to live in this world–as signs of contradiction to its errors and as detached as from the respect of persons–seeking only the approval of God.
God Bless you for persevering and giving this great witness.
dear CraigV,
Not trying to be rude to jump in on another Catholic with a correction, but —
no. Honorius was condemned for allowing heresy to spread, not for being an heretic himself.
That said, and just for a little levity, tennis rackets are not baseball bats.
Dear Peter Lamb,
We still disagree with your statement that our position is incorrect. Reading the links you provided, it’s plain that the people you reference hold several basic beliefs with which we disagree, which is why you and they are Sede’s and we are not. They base their conclusions in this matter on the judgment they believe they are entitled to make, that the reigning Pontiff is “not” a true Pope, –and not just the current one, but several of those who preceded him as well. They therefore logically consider it dishonest and hypocritical to pray “in union” with any of them AS pope, under any circumstances.
___
Since we are not Sedes, and disagree with their ideas, we have no problem uniting our prayers to those of the Pope, when and if they are in line with Church teachings. The specific Eucharistic prayer of the Mass we cited, does not seem complicated to us, and asks God , not us, to guide the Pope. And as we said, whenever we hear a petition in Church which seems unorthodox in any way, we refrain from joining in. We intend to continue praying for Pope Francis, and with his good petitions, as long as he in not officially deposed.
___
No Indignus, you misunderstood the reference. I did not mean our points of disagreement regarding sede. I was referring to the points which indicate from impeccable sources, one’s expressed union with he whom one accepts as the valid Pope in the Te Igitur. Sede doesn’t come into it. No matter.
I do not have a NO missal. Please can you tell me how many Eucharistic prayers does the NO mass have? If it’s not a nuisance, would it be possible to reproduce them for me to read? How is the Te Igitur worded in the NO missal? Does it differ in the “ordinary” and “extraordinary” forms? Please don’t bother if what I have asked, implies a lot of work.
Amen!
There are a few. I presume the texts are online. I always understood that the prayer offering was in union with the Pope and local ordinary.
That is true.
heheh.
Hey Peter – here’s the missal-montini with the Latin and an early English translation —– http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/TextContents/Index/4/SubIndex/67/TextIndex/9 ——-.
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The Paul VI missal has ‘una cum’. I mentioned a post or two back to Indignus that the English translates ‘una cum’ as ‘we offer them for…’
Well, if that’s the English translation Indignus uses, then he is perfectly reasonable and correct in his statements. Even that translation is not unreasonable, but the matter is not as clear cut and simple as that. The Te Igitur is a very complicated prayer. I will continue this comment below, because the thread is too thin.
Dear Peter,
Please let us know if you are unable to find those prayers online or from references folks provided below, and we’ll take a look.
As to your claim that we misunderstood, did you not write above:
“The matter of the “una cum” mass is of grave concern to sedevacantists, who are forbidden by Catholic doctrine from assisting at any mass, be it NO, motu, SSPX, FSSP, or “independent”, where the name of a HERETIC is inserted in the canon.” ?
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It seems to us that the Sede matter does enter into that, as we believe a formal judgment is necessary to declare a Pope a heretic, while Sede’s (if we understand you correctly) do not.
Doesn’t the whole problem center on whether or not you consider the Pope a formal and material heretic?
Dear My2cents,
We see your complaint repeated a lot here– that the N.O. Mass is “me centered” and not God-centered, and yet when we ask to be shown specific prayers to demonstrate that, we are offered links to videos that detail abuses.
While some individual priests definitely go overboard that way, and would likely find it impossible to demonstrate it, or continue “performing” as they do, if they were presiding at a TLM, in our experience the majority are simply acting in persona Christi, and maintain a level of reverence that demonstrates the opposite, calling attention to what is owed the Real Presence as He is offered to the Heavenly Father.
Actually the turning to neighbors during the “Kiss of Peace” is the only thing we see as an unnecessary distraction that we hope is eliminated some day. We had to revise our idea that it should be entirely removed or placed at the start of Mass rather than before the Agnus Dei, once we realized it IS a part of the TLM–where the priest wishes the people the peace of Christ and they respond to him just then.
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Aside from that one thing, can you tell us what you personally find “me-centered” about it? We are sincerely interested.
How complicated is the “una cum” in the Te Igitur, the first prayer of the canon of the Mass!
The rules of Latin grammar permit various possible antecedents for the phrase una cum (together with; in union with), each of which produced a slightly different meaning:
(1) Adjective modifying Church = one with, or united with: The Pope is united to
the Catholic Church and vice versa.
The basis for this opinion is the fact that the Roman Pontiff is the principle of unity of the Catholic Church as a whole, and the local bishop the principle of unity of the particular Church.
(2) Adverb modifying we offer = we offer together with: The Pope jointly offers the
Holy Sacrifice of the Mass along with the priest and the Church.
The reason for this opinion is that the Mass is an ecclesial act, offered not merely by a particular priest, but by the whole Church, in the name of which the priest is functioning. Since the Roman Pontiff is the head and principle of unity of the whole Church, it is fitting that his name be mentioned as the principal offerer.
(3) Appositional link with Church = for thy Church, which includes. The Pope is
among the members of the Church for whom the priest and the Church intercede through the offering of the Mass.
(4) Coordinating conjunction with Church, bishop, all true believers = and for Thy servant, the Pope: The priest and the Church offer the Mass for the servant
of God, the Pope.
Which is the correct way to accept una cum? The third way is correct. Convincing proof is the fact that in medieval times, the name of the king was often inserted in this place, as well as that of the pope and bishop, which name is incompatible with the first two meanings of una cum, but not with the third. For the king is neither the principle of unity of the Church, nor is he in any way a principal or
extraordinary offerer of the Mass. In these matters, he does not differ from the peasant in the pew. He is, however, a prominent member of the Mystical Body, as are pope and bishop, and does deserve special mention as such in the Mass and at other times in the sacred liturgy. The una cum phrase also appears in the Exsultet of Holy Saturday where the names of the pope and local bishop are to be inserted and, prior to 1918, the name of the Austrian Emperor. In this context the names are clearly there as prominent members of the Mystical Body.
Such a conclusion, however, does not deny the fact that the Roman Pontiff is the principle of unity of the Roman Catholic Church, nor that the Mass is an ecclesial act. To the contrary, both of these truths must be asserted about both the Church and the Mass.
However, praying for someone as pope and as bishop of the diocese is different from merely mentioning the name of your favorite aunt, or even that of the king or emperor. It is more, much more, than a mere friendly gesture of praying for someone. Rather the mentioning of these names of pope and bishop — and particularly that of the pope — has always been taken by the Church to be a sign of recognition of communion with the Roman Pontiff. Conversely, the deliberate failure to mention these names, and particularly that of the pope, has always been interpreted by the Catholic Church to be a declaration of non–communion with the Roman Pontiff. Submission to the Roman Pontiff is the foundation of the relation of the communion among the members of the Mystical Body, which is the same thing as the Roman Catholic Church. The mentioning of the name of the pope in the Mass, therefore, has always been commonly taken as a token of recognition of and submission to the power of the reigning pontiff; its omission has been taken as a sign of lack of recognition of and of submission to the reigning pontiff. Thus the eastern schismatics omitted the name in their Masses, and, when they returned to the unity of the Catholic Church, would resume the mention of the name, and purposely omitted any name which was obnoxious to the Catholic Church, such as that of the schismatic patriarch.
I have cited the works of Bishop Sanborn and Father Cekada above. I have mixed extracts of these citations to substantiate my statement that in the Te Igitur we pray in communion, together WITH the Pope and not merely FOR him. I have not even touched upon the theological implications of the Te Igitur. For a full understanding, reading of the articles cited is obligatory.
Although both articles are primarily written to explain why a sedevacantist may not attend a mass where the name of a heretical, false pope is inserted in the Te Igitur, there is much explanation of the Te Igitur per se, which has nothing to do with sedevacantism.
No Indignus, I’m trying to get away from the sede aspect, i.e. the implications for sedes of inserting a heretic’s name in the canon and trying to look at the meaning of the Te Igitur when the name of he whom one believes to be a true Pope is inserted. I think I expressed myself poorly.
In any English-translation NOM I ever attended, it was always offering “together with” Pope X and our bishop, X.
Dear Peter,
We’ve reviewed the previous comments in light of your statement that you’re trying to get away from the sede issue.
Is the point you’re making that in praying the Eucharistic prayer which names the Pope, we are IMPLICITLY declaring our union with him in his role as vicar of Christ an head of the Church? If so, that is not a problem for us, because our position is to treat him as such until such time as he is declared by the proper authorities to be “not” the Pope.
Anyway, in that sense we can agree with you, that we are praying WITH the Pope as well as FOR him in the Eucharistic prayers.
Is there some other aspect you were trying to tackle?
p.s. We’ve seen this discussion on previous blog comment sections, and watched it go back and forth between the Scriptural admonitions (such as St. John’s) not to pray with anyone who teaches another doctrine; and the doctors of the Church and Saints and Popes who wrote and taught about no one judging the Pope.
–which is where it gets back into the sede aspect.
If you had something else in mind, let us know.
Dear Indignus,
Sorry, due to my ignorance, we are comparing apples with oranges. I found the Eucharistic prayers of the NO online. There are 4 of them. The 1st is vaguely similar, but very different, from the Te Igitur of the 1952 St. Andrew’s Missal – which is what I am talking about. The other 3 optional NO Eucharistic prayers are completely novel and in no way at all reflect the traditional Te Igitur. I did not realize that the Eucharistic prayers in the NO were novel.
The first reads:
“We come to you, Father, with praise and thanksgiving, through Jesus Christ your Son. Through him we ask you to accept and bless + these gifts we offer you in sacrifice. We offer them for your holy catholic Church, watch over it, Lord, and guide it; grant it peace and unity throughout the world. We offer them for N. our Pope, for N. our bishop, and for all who hold and teach the catholic faith that comes to us from the apostles.”
You, who reads that and says you pray FOR the Pope are obviously perfectly correct.
However, I am reading:
“Most merciful Father we humbly pray and beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ Thy Son, our Lord, that Thou wilt be pleased to receive and bless these gifts, these offerings,these holy unblemished sacrifices.
We offer them to Thee in the first place for Thy holy Catholic Church; vouchsafe, throughout the whole world, to keep her in peace, to watch over her, to gather her in unity and to guide her, in union with N. Thy servant our Pope, N. our bishop, and all right believing teachers of the Catholic apostolic faith.”
You will understand from my previous comment how that translates into praying into both WITH and FOR the Pope. Once again I have learned something. Thanks for your input.
Dear Peter,
Glad to help. 🙂 🙂
Dear Rich,
I have no need or wish to know the particulars, but your point, as stated, is not an argument for any position. There are a number of situations where divorce is an option. If Fr. had said “killing is an option”, without knowing the particulars, judgment can’t be rendered. The same with divorce. I am very sorry that your family was destroyed, but to place the blame on that statement is unconvincing. Please understand, my concern is not to speak to your experience, but to speak to any confusion imparted to other readers for whom divorce is a necessary action for their situation. N.B. The Church doesn’t recognize divorce as dissolving the marriage, but a civil step for a civil arrangement.
I think you’re being too easy on Honorius…
http://www.romancatholicism.org/honorius-heresy.html
That being said, I don’t understand the tennis racket / baseball bat reference. Been a long day. Maybe I’m missing something obvious.
Thanks for this break-down of the matter, Peter. The unity of the Church is always bound with the Successor of St Peter, implicitly or explicitly. In Leo XIII’s Inscrutabili Dei Consilio, he reminds us of the “union which binds all the faithful of Christ to the Roman Pontiff, We recognize that nothing should be nearer Our heart than how to preserve safe and sound the dignity of the Roman see, and to strengthen ever more and more the union of members with the head…”
hey, CraigV,
Don’t worry about not getting my feeble attempt at humor-that’s probably a virtue on your part!
To the point, though, either we’re aiming for accuracy, or we’re not. If accuracy is the goal-it must be said, again -the following:
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Honorius was condemned for allowing heresy to spread, not for being an heretic himself.
Dear Alarico,
We were simply amused by the pun.
We also think your statement that the Novus Ordo liturgy “produces neutered Catholics”, is false. People can put a lot of themselves into it and get a lot out of it, depending more on their understanding of the Faith and the Mass itself than anything else. We disagree that the Mass is leading people to these attitudes so many people here connect to it. The breakdown in education in the Church is more to blame for those, as well as the acceptance and tolerance of sin.
I don’t Monsignor Bastress can sing like that anymore but if I go back to Baltimore this year I hope I get to hear him.
I sent this article to a friend of mine who is moving to Baltimore. I sent this article to him and he visited St. Alphonsus last Sunday. Apparently parishioners must leave within 15 minutes after mass or their cars will be towed–effectively shutting off any social interaction or parish life. Knowing this, I fear he will go back to a Norvus Ordo mass such is the importance of a parish social life to his wife. I find it outrageous how trads are treated. Yea…here’s your mass…you’re lucky if it is at a reasonable time (not 6:30 AM or 3 PM)…and you have to leave right after or your car will be towed…we can’t have you enjoying any sort of social parish life. You can’t get your kids baptized or confirmed in the Traditional Rite…have to go “ordinarian” for that one, or drive 3 hours.
Well Paul, I have you beat. My nearest TLM is 550 miles away and it costs $400+ roundtrip to fly. It was this year’s birthday present! The Japanese Bishops are very hostile to the TLM. Fortunately I get away a few times. Maybe we should have a competition to see who lives furthest away from a TLM. Can anyone beat 550?
From the comments on this wee ‘thread’: “the only Mass which I can attend is the NO one…It’s important to realize this…The vast majority of Catholics do not have access to the Traditional Holy Sacrifice of the Mass…Of course this is very true and those of us who have been given this great gift realize that many have only the NO mass to attend…”
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Excluding the N.O. service, (since it belongs not to the Catholic Fatih but to the protestant ‘faith’) what is really important is to figure out how far you are from the Mass offered to God by a valid Priest free from communion with belial – those modernist prelates who belong to a communion in opposition to Christ’s Church. If someone figures this out, the geographical Mass radar will shrink significantly. The AWARENESS of the need for ‘spiritual communion’ will increase. And the need to support those FEW TRUE PRIESTS who offer the UNADULTERATED MASS (the only Mass that does not offend God – God is not mocked nor hoodwinked), increases. This will increase the number of true Catholic Masses and increase the Apostolic brethren of the Eternal Order of Melchisedech. Everyone wins, and people stop preventing the spiritual honesty penny from hitting the ground of truth.
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The Precious Blood of Christ is our only reconciliation with God Almighty. If we unite ourselves with this offering God will convert us, will dissolve error, will restore Truth where it has been savaged by lies and will give us the grace to neither accept deceit nor promulgate it under the banner of ‘charity’ bereft of truth.