Well… it is now undeniable: Michael Voris is all-in with the manifesto. Damn shame too. The guy screwed up. It happens. I’m pretty sure I did that once too. Maybe even twice.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not the least bit pleased about this rift between Voris and people like John Vennari, Christopher Ferrara and Michael Matt. Not only do I respect these men a great deal, I’m out here doing the same kinds of things; namely, defending our Catholic faith against all comers, even the occasionally naked pope. A stone thrown at them hits me as well.
At the end of the day, we’re still Catholics. That makes us family. In other words, it ain’t over ’til it’s over; so with that in mind I’m offering a bit of fraternal correction.
NOTE: I’ll have something to say about the claim that the SSPX is “soft sedevacantist” later, but to be honest, that’s kind of like responding to a seven year old kid who just said, “Your mother wears army boots!”
Well done Mr. Verrecchio. I pray Mr. Voris will come around on this issue. He has the potential to be a tremendous asset to the Cause of the restoration of the Church. God Bless
That was excellent! Thank you, sir!
God bless you Louie for a little fraternal correction. I hope Mike see’s this as act of charity. We all love the holy father, but if he’s not preaching the truth, he has to be called out, as much as that hurts.
Some time ago I was caring for my dear mother and was more or less home bound , so I had the time to delve further into the many questions I had concerning the VII confusion. I stumbled across the SSPX. Web page and sent an e-mail explaining the situation I had experienced in the Boston Archdiocese which I won’t repeat for the sake of brevity……suffice it to say they most generously sent me a series of books by ArchBishop Lefebvre and it is without exaggeration that I say that all the Apologetics contained the Faith I was taught by the Sisters of St Joseph in my first eight years of catholic grammar-school ( which was completed in May 1965). It never ceases to amaze me when I hear or read disparaging remarks concerning these holy priests. Thank you Mr V for your steadfast and rock solid faith. How sad for CMTV that they have resorted to attacking good Catholics like Mr Vennari and Mr Ferrara not to mention Fr Nicholas Gruner , who in my estimation is a saint.
Sorry that I made the statement about Fr Gruner as though he was included in the CMTV manifesto….and forgot to include Mr Matt a stellar Catholic. I should follow my first instinct and read, not comment.
I don’t know if I can, in good conscience, ever watch anything Voris puts out now. I noticed the trend to twist the perception of the Pope to be a hammer against liberals and other such nonsense, in the past. It disturbed me then. Also, he has no problem calling out Bishops such as Dolan but has always stopped short of going all the way to the top. If Dolan had said some of the things Francis has, such as calling Ken Copeland his “brother bishop” then Voris would have been all over it. The manifesto is the last straw. Very disappointing.
Dear Louie,
Thank you. You have acted in ‘charity’ for your brother in Christ, pointing facts. For few years, I tried (and many others) to do just that, writing emails……all to no avail. Sometimes, we hard-heads have to really get hit with a brick to SEE, let us pray that this scandal will be the ‘brick’ to get Michael to be who he claims to be, who he ought to be, a ‘true’ soldier of Christ…… in fearless faith serving TRUTH, above all else!
Our Lady of Fatima, ora pro nobis!
God draws good out of evil. Case in point, this situation has proven you need to do more excellent videos like this one.
Absolutely loved this video. Excellent. I hope it helps Michael Voris come to his senses. As James The Lesser wrote above, I have a harder time watching The Vortex episodes now after this fiasco. It caused me to cancel my premium membership. I can’t in good conscience contribute when CMTV is comparing the writings of great Catholic men to pornography. Absurd.
What happened that exposed Voris’ involvement in the manifesto?
God Bless you Louie for your efforts fighting this crusade for Christ the King under the banner of Mary Immaculate. You have been courageous in your just and charitable criticism of Mr Voris. Hopefully he will come around and see that we need to fight together this holy battle. He is definitely sincere and zealous in the faith but I wonder whether he may be being led by bad spiritual advisors from opus dei.
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Louie, you are in my prayers.
–
BTW, you seem to have a gift making videos, maybe you should follow Voris’ example and form your own flagship show, even perhaps interview people every now and then etc.
–
“Pilate therefore said to him: Art thou a king then? Jesus answered: Thou sayest that I am a king. For this was I born, and for this came I into the world; that I should give testimony to the truth. Every one that is of the truth, heareth my voice.” ~ John 18:36-37
I repeat the question that Nathan asked. What new evidence is there that directly ties Voris to the Manifesto? Great video by the way.
I was astonished that, when Card. Dolan denied that he or most bishops had been obsessed with ‘talking about’ sexual morality as the Pope had stated, CMTV attacked Dolan for not speaking up on these issues but ignored the fact that the Pope’s statement was laughably inaccurate. This was the point of Dolan’s admission (we don’t talk about these issues at all or very rarely).
I contacted CMTV to say that they were missing a very large point here. I received no reply.
Mr. Verrecchio,
Well done and quite charitable of you, sir.
I had no idea of the rift over this manifesto, but this is something that has bothered me about Voris – even before Pope Francis.
AMDG,
Michael
Well done, Louie. With characteristic charity, truth, and humor.
My guess? Both sides are whistling past the sedevacantist graveyard. Voris by taking a “no criticism of Pope Francis” stance. The Fatima Crusaders (Ferrara, Matt, Fr. Paul Kramer) and Louie (through his silence) through publishing articles like the following in which they speculate that Benedict’s resignation was invalid and consequently he is still Pope (aka sedebenedictplenism).
http://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/274-latest-updates-from-socci-the-papal-games
Thank you for using so many of your talents for the greater glory of God and His Church. As you say, Mr. Voris doesn’t have to say a word about the Pope, fine, but calling all those men who have been at the front of this battle trying to save Holy Mother Church for DECADES, authors of church “pornagraphy” is outrageous! Oh, how the modern “Bishops” like Mahoney, Dolan, etc. are laughing.
Pray for the Pope and pray for Mr. Voris.
AMBIGUITY
Some use vernacular
The next day Latin
Many charismatic
Some use a paten.
Then there are the ministers
Eucharistic-chick
Handing out Our Lord
So you can have your pick.
Liturgies diverse
Assembly on their feet
Holding hands in the air
Kneelers obsolete.
One Holy Catholic
Apostolic Church –
Good for some let others run
In circles as they search.
For we are all approved
Don’t ever rock the boat —
Except those pious Priests
Teaching souls to float.
Saintly Thomas More
Could’ve had it all
Private Latin Masses
Behind a purpled wall.
But no – he chose the scaffold
Where truth and lie collide
Heads were cut —
Entrails gut –
Ambiguity couldn’t hide!
Well done, Louie. Should you ever decide (or have the time) to do a regular video program, I’ll gladly be one of your first subscribers. I’ll transfer my premium subscription to yours… 😉
Just like Halina is whistling past the sede graveyard in the other thread by pretending that Bishop Williamson’s departure from the SSPX is insignificant, without ever mentioning the number of priests who support him over Bishop Fellay.
So Mr Culbreath, given that you are a known indulterer, what do you make of Ferrara’s latest Remnant piece proposing that Benedict is still pope?
Louie you could not have made it any clearer than you did on this video.. Bravo!! You said what many of us were thinking–and you even did it without a mop of hair in your eyes. Super job, I’ll keep reading the writers that wisely take issue with misleading comments by Pope Francis. In his role as Pope he has sadly bred a lot of confusion in the past year, which seems to escalate. I read a while back that Pope Francis contacted some conservative writers that took issue with his statements and even thanked them, so it seems he is not uncomfortable with criticism, ALTHOUGH he hasn’t changed course. It seems only Voris is uncomfortable. Stay strong Mr. V—–we need you to ask these questions.
Torquemada, may I suggest you get a hobby?
Thank you, Louie, for a charitably put fraternal correction. I figured that MV was behind the manifesto simply because it sounded like the MV of about three years ago. Because of their misplaced faith that everything coming from the Pope’s mouth must be, at the least, irreproachable, I think they must be frightened by any thought that there might be something a bit off with something this Pope says. It opens up a can of worms for them, and better to shut it out completely. It is a multi-faceted problem, but it is made ludicrous by the implication that “many bishops are bad but the buck stops with them!”, or my favorite, much heard during the pontificate of JPII, “the Pope wants to do something about all the garbage, but he’s a prisoner in the Vatican!” The see no evil, hear no evil, and say no evil paradigm, when it comes to the present crisis, will do nothing to save souls. We must not be afraid to defend our holy Mother the Church by speaking the truth, even if it means disputing what has come from the top, if it be not of Christ.
OUTSTANDING!
God has blessed you so much. You have to do this medium more often.
May God bless you even more.
Bill
Mr Culbreath: Why the reluctance to answer a direct question over who is currently the reigning the Pontiff? Obviously the question is a relevant one for the Fatima Crusaders among the Recognize & Resist crowd. Between Fr. Paul Kramer declaring Benedict to still be the true pope just before Christmas, and Matt publishing Ferrara’s article on the topic (linked to above), I would think this is very relevant to charges of soft sedevacantism.
The neo ultramontanism strikes again. I just don’t get it. I’m not watching the vortex again knowing the hypocrisy of CMTV. Sickening really that they pretend to expose lies and falsehood yet think the Pope gets a free pass.
Give Michael Voris some time. Assuming that the confusion coming from the Saint Martha Hotel occupant will continue, the time may come when he will not be able to stay silent.
But many saints have taught that criticism of the Pope is most displeasing to God. My guess is that this is the reason that Michael is doing his best not to engage in it himself at this time.
I am disturbed by what the Pope is doing and saying. It makes me want to look the other way; it is painful.
As for him naming names of others, let him get back from the Philippines and address all this. If he wrote the ‘manifesto’, I suspect he will say so. Or as someone thought, he may take responsibility even if a minion wrote it.
Faithful Catholics are being put in an awful position between a rock and a hard place. If the Holy Father’s gaffs are spoken about, one is accused of being a dissenting heretic or something. If silent, as is Michael Voris at the moment, there is still accusation. Can’t win.
We who know their faith, and I do, must do what we can where we can make a difference. I am not on a blog but active locally with leading a pro-life endeavor and also parish programs designed to bring other souls closer to Jesus and Mary. It takes more than making comments on a blog to shine the light of Christ in this darkening world.
Tequila…….you are full of hot air…….be careful, you will get burned. You think too highly of yourself………’pride’ is your name.
Go and take a long walk, it will do you good, you might find somebody else who wants to listen to you.
God love you.
Thank you, Louie! You are truly inspired, God bless you and all who fight for the Catholic Church, as established by Christ. Protecting the Pope when he is wrong is a betrayal of Our Lord. We need more Crusaders like Vennari, Matt, Ferrara, McCall and many others, including yourself. Keep up the good work!!
Wow, Halina, rather than address the argument you resort to name-calling. Isn’t that what Recognize & Resist trads accuse Mark Shea of doing? Any good buffets you wish to recommend?
Catholic Militant: I might have more sympathy for those who defend the crusaders if they would clarify which pope is carrying the standard – Benedict or Francis?
How is Michael Voris’s Vortex any different form what he calls an “ecclesiastical porn” site?
Torquemada, who is your Bishop?
I’ve wondered about Michael for some time now. I can’t help but wonder why he refuses to see the truth about many traditional things. He told my daughter to her face that she could not go to a SSPX mass since the priests are outside the Church. Which makes me suspicious that he’s a shill. Satan has his busy little bees in every corner, always at the source, always at the root. Those who put themselves against the truth in any way, with guns blazing, leave themselves suspect. I’ll withdraw all suspicions if Michael Voris recants. Otherwise, I wouldn’t trust him as far as I could throw him. Its all or nothing. You’re in or your out. We live in way too dangerous a world to play footsie with the mediocre or mistaken. Always with charity. Just lots of distance. And no premium membership.
@James – Why should I answer who my bishop is if nobody here will tell me who there pope is?
Louie, thank you so very much for an insightful and entertaining take on the CMTV situation. Michael Voris et al. are destroying their own credibility with this distorted ‘holier than thou’ attitude. It is laughable to criticize every bishop except the ‘bishop of Rome’ who is neutralizing the papacy by his shenanigans. He is close to being an apostate pope, and is already tampering with the Sacrament of Matrimony as the Church has always taught it. I wrote Michael and asked him what he will do when it comes out of Rome that the Holy Eucharist is only present during Mass and that the extra hosts need to be thrown in the garbage. Will he support this pope then?
I appreciate very much that you are willing to expose what the ‘bishop of Rome ‘ is doing. Our obedience must be to the Catholic Faith; when a pope does not uphold and defend it, he must be exposed. Thank you again for your courage.
P.S. James (and one could add Jeff Culbreath and other comments box detractors against Mr Voris): As much as I may disagree with Mr Voris on numerous issues, he at least possesses the testosterone to state clearly who he believes to be the reigning pope.
Torquemada T: I think you need to work on the term ‘sedebenedictplenism’. Plenism makes no sense in this context.
@Pooh Bear: It’s not my term. It was coined in an online traditionalist discussion forum last fall, in a half-joking effort to distinguish those who believed Benedict was still pope from sedevacantists. The term stuck.
At the time the number of traditionalists subscribing to sedebenedictplenism was insignificant. However, the movement is gaining traction between Fr. Paul Kramer publicly jumping upon the sedebenedictplenist bandwagon, his fellow Fatima crusader Chris Ferrara publishing an article in the Remnant speculating about the matter, Bishop Williamson recognizing sedevacantists as fellow Catholics and and the upcoming canonization of Pope John Paul II.
Breaking !
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/03/exclusive-for-il-foglio-kaspers.html.
If I said it once, I will say it again, they are making it up as they go along!
Thank you, Louie, for standing up for that which Christ died for – our immortal souls and the Truth. When the pope is doing his own porn parade in public it is indeed egregious to start talking about the weather – let alone deflecting beating the Faithful who fear God more than their place at the modernist table. That first impulse to turn away from the Truth is a bad seed planted. As Flatterus said: We live in way too dangerous a world to play footsie with the mediocre or mistaken.
–
Just look at our conciliar Popes (Paul VI and his church of Man; JPII and his blasphemy of Calvary placing a devil on the altar of sacrifice, and now Frankiefootsiefalsehoods).
–
BTW, if those coming up for sainthood are saints, then St Paul had no right to anathematize anyone. If they are saints then he should have said, and even if i or an angel of heaven teach you something false, you must believe and adhere. If they are saints, there is no such thing as an Peter the denier, or Peter needing Paul’s chatisment. If they are saints then Truth HAS changed and somehow modernism is the new ‘christ’. If they are saints then the gates of hell need not prevail in battle because the Church could simple declare an armistice.
CMTV , like the church of nice, seemed to have forgotten what true charity is.
s,armaticus: Oh dear, now are rorate-caeli-blog ecclesiastical pornograhers as well? Well, soon no soliders for Christ the King will be able to notice anything true about the apostasizing Church without the ecclisiastical porn-police slandering them in public for refusing to go down without a fight.
what a sad epitaph: M Voris – coined the phrase ‘ecclesiastical porn’ to slander faithful Catholics when the Church was lurching into apostasy and those few good men continued to tell it like it is.
–
Our Lady of Good Success, ora pro nobis.
p.s. I wonder how far a pope would have to take atypical papal behaviour before it’s permissible to notice out loud? When he appoints Protestants as Cardinals? When he converts to Judaism? When he sells St Peters to throw a huge inter-religious love in for the whole world! Joy to the fishes in the deep blue SEE.
As for Mr. V’s call to arms, YES!
We should all be locking arms and taking the fight to the enemy, whoever he may be, for the greater glory of God.
I cut off all my social media connections, email, removed youtube videos. If people go to hell because of what Pope Francis does and says, and I say nothing, then I am guilty also. I pray that Mr. Voris will wake up and defend the Church of all time.
Maria Angela: Definitive Action!
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what is a pope who spurns Revelation(which he did in the world’s spotlight in the example shown in the video above)? he has departed from reason. What is a pope who has departed from reason? Dangerous to immortal souls. What is a Catholic apostolate which will not defend Revelation in contradiction to a dangerous pope? a dangerous apostolate. what possible justification could Daniel have had for running away from the lion’s den? should he have submitted to the earthly king and blasphemed God?
–
it’s not Catholics who contradict a pope who are the problem, it’s the millions of Catholics, and bishops, even of Rome, who contradict the Faith.
–
another feather for Rahner.
Thank you for that brilliant video. I do hope Michael takes notice, I am sure he will appreciate the good humoured parody because his sense of humour is good.
But it is something that has long needed to be said. Obviously the ‘manifesto’ sparked it, but it seems that that is Michael’s response to his many erstwhile grateful supporters getting increasingly annoyed at his preposterous ignoring the elephant in the room.
As you point out if Cardinal Dolan ever uttered some of the disturbing oddities that have emanated from mouth of Pope Francis, he would be on him like a ton of bricks, and rightly so!
Michael Voris has to make his mind up whether to reply to you, bt his credibility really is at stake now, and it’s his attack of the likes of Michael Matt and John Vennari that have prompted it.
St. Catherine of Siena was among those who criticized the pope. And I believe that I read somewhere other saints have criticized the popes of their times.
During the Avignon Captivity, She urged Pope Gregory XI to leave Avignon and return to Rome, which he did in 1377. She did not hesitate to reprove the next Pope, Urban VI, who welcomed her reprimands. She died on April 29, was canonized in 1461, and was declared Patron Saint of Italy in 1939.
Also St. Pius X said of the modernists – “They want to be treated with oil, soap and caresses,” he said of his antagonists. “But they should be beaten with fists. In a duel, you don’t count or measure the blows, you strike as you can.” And unfortunately Pope Francis is a modernist.
It should be done in charity and intelligently and I think, from what I have seen, that has been the case.
@mike
St Hildegard of Bingen criticised the Pope; St Athanasius. indeed bergoglio himself criticized Benedict for telling the truth about islam – but I think when one criticizes a pope for stating a Divinely Revealed Truth, that’s probably the sort of crticising of the pope that need not happen.
BTW, great quote from St. Pius X.
I ask again: what new evidence has linked Voris to the document more definitively than before?
As I was sitting at Mass today, listening to the Epistle, (I Corinthians 13), I could not stop thinking about this CMTV issue. I think all sides need to think about what it is that we are trying to accomplish. But just for reference, here is today’s reading:
—–
Brethren: If I should speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have charity, I have become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, yet do not have charity, I am nothing. And if I distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I deliver my body to be burned, yet do not have charity, it profits me nothing.
—-
Charity is patient, is kind; charity does not envy; is not pretentious, is not puffed up, is not ambitious, is not self seeking, is not provoked; thinks no evil, does not rejoice over wickedness, but rejoices in the truth; bears with all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
—
Charity never fails, whereas prophecies will disappear, and tongues will cease , and knowledge will be destroyed. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when that which is perfect has come, that which is imperfect will be done away with. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have became a man, I have put away the things of a child. We see now through a mirror in an obscure manner, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then shall I know even as I have been known. So there abide faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
———
At the end of the day, we all need to work out our salvation in fear and trembling, and that means first and foremost… in charity.
___
PS I always look forward to Quinquagesima Sunday, just to hear the reading. It’s one of my favorites. But I digress.
Nathan, please go to Catholic Family News. John Vennari has issued a statement, which proves that there’s no mistake that Michael Voris is an author of the Manifesto.
Not only that, facts speak for itself. Michael, never changed his position, regarding the conciliar Popes.
Lets face it, the Novus Ordo Church “newest American Idol” is burying itself alive in self-love. The result is grave…….confusion, and further division amongst Catholics.
The Devil is wagging his tail!
And we have NOT one in the Church Hierarchy to put stop to this madness……….simply, because THEY are the cause of this MOCKERY! They are guided by ‘human wisdom’………ashamed of ‘God’s Wisdom’. God forbid, we should fall victims to their misery!
Our Lord Jesus Christ chose the Royal Way to the Cross, to teach us, that
there’s no other ‘way’ to salvation.
Keep the Faith!
Jesus, Son of David, Miserere Nobis!
Why are we imagining that a new road is to be built for us?
Halina, I can’t find the statement you’re referring to. The closest thing I can find is this:
http://www.cfnews.org/page88/files/751b83874a7bdfab126e65e854b51207-193.html
The article linked to assumes–not proves–Voris’ involvement.
Torquemada, Francis is the Pope. He is the Pope that Catholics deserve. They have proven this by their fruits. If you can get the millions of Catholics to be become faithful to Christ and His Church then perhaps God will give us the next Pius X.
Thank you for this Mr. V! You speak for many of us on serious things, but with a lightness of heart and a sense of humour – that only a person with knowledge of self and the greatness of God’s grace operating through His Church can do …
It is a joy to listen to you – really edifying and fires you up for the battle for Our Lord we have on our hands ! So sorry about Micheal Voris though – I always liked him – right from the beginning of his Church Militant/Real Catholic TV work. BUT..he should never have backed such things written about those most excellent Catholic men – Vennari, Matt and Ferrara …anyway, once again, it was kind of an insult to the lay Catholic – considered not fit to discern…the rubbish from the truth
God bless you Mr. V and the other the Mr. V too! May you both be on the SAME side once again! We need men like you both at the frontlines. You are both on my prayer list!
Barbara
– I wish the bishop of Rome was capable displaying charity for the faithful and for those lost to false religions. as for cmtv – it seems they’ve joined Francis new evangelisation – that is insult the faithful with the most new and horrible labels – ecclesiastical porn – spiritual porn – could have been straight out of francis’ little book of insults.
–
those who have been given, much is demanded. I guess it’s much safer to do the dirty on the sheep to relieve the tension, Francis does it frequently.
Brilliant video!
I found your site after watching CMTV´s mic´d up “Louie Verrecchio: Fix Church Division by Proclaiming the Kingship of Christ”.
It was obvious back then that Mr. Voris wasn´t amused at all with what you had to say about Pope Francis´ Ramadan wishes to the muslims compared with Card. Dolan´s visit to a mosque (from min. 8:47).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc42JQF3wg8
If it is never permissible to criticize a pope, surely that applies as much to implicit as to explicit rebukes.
For example, in the Vortex clip shown above, the presenter pointedly refers to President Obama’s description of the “holy” Koran, as “his words”. Assuming, however, that this clip was filmed some time between the election of Obama and that of Jorge Bergoglio, then they were also the words of the then Pope Benedict, in an update to his “Regensburg Address”:
“I hope that the reader of my text can see immediately that this sentence does not express my personal view of the Qur’an, for which I have the respect due to the holy book of a great religion“ (footnote 3).
Alternatively, if the Vortex clip was filmed before the election of Josef Ratzinger, then these words were also those of the then Pope John Paul II in his “Address to the Participants in the Colloquium on ‘Holiness in Christianity and Islam'”:
“All true holiness comes from God, who is called ‘The Holy One’ in the Sacred Books of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Your Holy Qur’an calls God ‘Al-Quddus’, as in the verse: ‘He is God, besides Whom there is no other, the Sovereign, the Holy the (source of) Peace’ (Al-Qur’an 59, 23).
If one is to be consistent, surely one ought not to criticize anyone who describes the Koran as “holy” if those are “the Pope’s words”.
Of course, one would still have to contend with these words of Pope St. Pius X:
“On what grounds can Modernists deny the truth of an experience affirmed by a follower of Islam? Will they claim a monopoly of true experiences for Catholics alone? In fact, Modernists do not deny this; on the contrary some rather obscurely, others very openly contend that all religions are true”
(Pascendi Dominici Gregis).
March 1, 2014: From John Vennari
A Response to Michael Voris’ assault
against Traditional Catholic Writers
……..on the other side……Nathan, did you read a statement from Voris, or heard a Vortex denying it?
Dear Saluto, you are ‘spot on’…….. that is insult the faithful with the most new and horrible labels – ecclesiastical porn – spiritual porn – could have been
straight out of francis’ little book of insults……..Miserere!
Here is the problem, that even good orthodox men like Michael Vorris fall into: it is the neo-Ultramontanism. The neo-cats are notorious for it; it is their point of pride and it’s main thesis is this (implicitly): The Church was made for the Pope, and the Pope is the Church. Yes, this is their belief. And with this belief we see exactly why all the post-conciliar popes are being canonized upon death. Because (rightly so, in a sense) the Church makes saints. And if the Church makes saints, and the Pope just *is* the Church (according to neo-Ultramontanism) then it follows that the Pope must be a saint too. Of course, there are other reasons, like trying to make VII saintly, and the pop-culture hero worship of Popes who didn’t fight error (go figure, modern saints for an apostate generation).
So here we have Michael Vorris falling into the same error. Up until Francis we didn’t see a Pope believe the same thing so strongly but we see it now. This Pope believes his own hype. He thinks he is the Church. In Protestantism the Holy Ghost is like a Pez dispenser or beer tap, one can just channel Him at will. Which is also what neo-cats believe. Hence, Francis simply cannot make a mistake, he **is* Catholicism, and the Holy Ghost **is** in him. Which is why we see, contrary to the self-proclamations of humility, a pope that is arrogant in his dismissal of tradition and authentic Catholicism.
I feel sorry for Vorris; I used to like him but how can I now? He displays staggering hypocrisy and weakness. Church Militant? Yeah right. Church weak. He’ll attack Dolan and Co. for their twisted words that only a handful of people hear? But Francis, who the world seems to love, says something evil and the world listens and suddenly the Church Militant wave white flags? Give me a break!
For those who despise the papacy as much as Francis, there is no shame or sin (as I see it) in despising his words. The man himself, I pray for him every day. But his actions and words deserve contempt because they are evil and confirm people in their wicked ways (even if he doesn’t mean to do so).
Halina, I did read the statement. What I’m wondering is what has happened to change Louie’s position from “wait and see” to “Voris is definitely behind this”.
There is one good thing to come out of the whole Francis debacle….its making people who always thought that they were true Catholics (looking at you members of the FSSP) start to wake up.
As for this whole Voris thing I ask a simple question: Who is more a danger to the Faith, the one who spreads error all of the time, or the one who spreads the truth 99% of the time? The answer is very simple if you give it a minute’s thought.
Truth is 100%. Error is, a denial and perversion of truth!
Nathan, hopefully as time goes we will all know the answer to this. Or, maybe it’s just not important. God Knows the truth, and that is good enough for any good Catholic.
As for MV, just follow the money…Opus Dei.
Thank you Saluto for that comment
I just got back from at Immaculate Conception Church in Omaha, FSSP.
I picked up this comment from St. Pius X also at another site from a book written by Yves Chiron..”St. Pius X: Restorer of the Church, pg. 88, 2002, from the Angelus Press. My understanding is that this is a sedevacantist site. But no matter.
–
“Liberal Catholics are “wolves in sheep’s clothing; it is more important than anything else that murky designs should be exposed to the light and denounced.”
Mike wrote:
“My understanding is that this is a sedevacantist site. But no matter.”
Correct answer, whether on a ED, SSPX or SV website, truth is an objective reality.
We need to rise above this silly pettiness.
@James the Lesser: Congratulations for being the only man among Voris’ critics on this website. Like Voris you believe Francis is pope. You had the testosterone to answer the question clearly, directly, unambiguously.
Given that like Voris you believe Francis to be pope, what do you make of Ferrara’s recent Remnant piece noted above?
@Nathan
I would be extremely surprised if Voris does not stand behind this statement. If nothing else, after several years in the secular media, the man has proven himself shrewd when it comes to researching, targeting and marketing his audience.
Being seen as sympathetic to or flirting with sedebenedictplenism is a marketing and fundraising killer. Period.
Obviously not with this crowd, since thus far only James the Lesser has stated clearly in this conversation that he believes Francis to be Pope. However, one need only read recent and desperate fundraising letters published by one-time darlings of the neo-cats Gerry Matatics, Dr. Tom Droleskey, and Michael & Cindy Cain to grasp that flirting with any form of sede’ism is an instant income killer.
Or look at how quickly Fr. Paul Kramer was “excommunicated” from the Recognize & Resist crowd when he proclaimed Benedict still validly the pope just before Christmas.
So yes, between some Fatima crusaders flirting publicly with sedebenedictplenism, and many R&R trads threatening to embrace sedevacantism should Francis proceed with John Paul II’s canonization, I can certainly understand Voris wanting to protect his investment at CMTV.
Looks like John Vennari has now come out and clearly and unambiguously denied the sedebenedictplenism of former CFN contributor Fr Paul Kramer. Thank-you, Mr Vennari, for showing more conviction than others who have waded into this conversation! Still waiting for Jeff Culbreath and Louie….
http://www.cfnews.org/page88/files/0194cd65ec671e70cbfe1371df68cd30-192.html
Torquemada, I am a simple sinner and don’t profess to have the answers. This is an extremely confusing time. If Francis is not the Roman Pontiff, who is?
Here is what Fr. Peter Carota had to say about criticizing the pope:
http://www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com/2013/09/21/pope-francis-and-traditional-catholicism/
@James: “If Francis is not the Roman Pontiff, who is?”
Well according to Fr Paul Kramer – and perhaps the Remnant: Benedict.
Torquemada: We get it, you are a sedevacantist, most of us are not. I’m sure everyone posting here has at lease heard the arguments for sedevacantism and if they havent embraced it by now, it’s because they are unconvinced. Why do you keep pushing the issue in this way?
Wonderful sermon from audiosancto.org, correcting the errors of Pope Francis,
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20130804-Who-are-the-Pelagians.html
dear Mark,
So well stated.
dear T.,
It’s so funny because I know both Bp. Sanborn and Fr. Cekada, fine theologians, both. In my opinion and from my experience with them in decades past when my children were babies and that of at least one of my adult children, they are both gentle men with in tact senses of humor. Neither would push in such a way. Never happen. So, consider gracious discourse- as these men- who I am sure are mentors for you, would very surely conduct.
dear Mark,
thank you for bringing up that link. You reminded me to mention Audio Sancto’s compelling sermon on Septuagesima season and it’s tragic removal from the Nervous Odious {my terminology}–and all the ramifications, to say the least. Can be found on the most recent 100 sermons on their main page. Thank you again.
my dear Halina,
quite frankly, I am just about ready for one of your chocolate babkas.
Mark & Linda:
Basically I find it absurd to think you profess Francis to be a true Vicar of Christ and successor of St. Peter. Even when St. Paul resisted St. Peter to his face, the Apostle to the Gentiles remained respectful before the Prince of Apostles.
Linda claims to know both Bp Sandborn and Fr. Cekada. Strange, I have never heard them mock or deride Bergoglio like he mocked and derided publicly among those so-called loyal traditionalists on this webpage who claim to recognize him as Roman Pontiff.
No wonder Mr Voris (or whoever wrote the CMTV manifesto) derides you as soft sedevacantists. It is obvious that for you Francis is cardboard pope: for display purposes and target shooting only.
It’s not just us folks.:)
Food fight at the RotR cafeteria.
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2014/03/reforming-irreformable-postscript.html#.UxObpYUvmhw
I guess some folks just can’t move on….
And this… on the same sight.
Another TLM sighting, and this time “with the participation of the whole College community.”
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2014/03/solemn-high-votive-mass-of-st-joseph-at.html#.UxOca4Uvmhw
I’ll bet they rounded up a bunch of them doggies. 🙂
dear S. Armaticus,
yaaay !–I needed a good food fight !!
Sanborn split from the SSPX which would make him guilty of the sin of schism. Also if you hold that the chair of Peter is vacant then Sanborn’s elevation to the office of Bishop would be a violation of canon law 335. You would therefore be following an invalid Bishop, based on your own theory. But when you’re a Sede you can make up anything …..so it’s easy to make violations of God’s ecclesiastical order disappear. And to justify your own sin while condemning others.
@James the Lesser: Why would Bishop Sandborn’s split from the SSPX make him guilty of the sin of schism? Is the SSPX suddenly THE CHURCH? The ancient See of Rome transferred to Econe? Even the most enthusiastic Feeneyite does not hold E-SSPX-N-S.
@James the Lesser: The other error in logic and sacramental theology is your claim that episcopal consecrations in the absence of a Roman Pontiff (or without a mandate from the Roman Pontiff) are invalid. If this were true, then I can think of four other men who are not validly consecrated bishops: Fellay, Williamson, Tissier de Mallerais, and de Gallereta.
But obviously you are familiar neither with Catholicism nor Tradition. After all, what you propose is actually a condemned heresy going back to the Patristic Era. This heresy is called Donatism. That’s the bad news. Assuming that it is not obstinate on your part, the good news is that there’s an easy cure for Donatism: reading St. Augustine.
So if may make a suggestion for Lent, it is that you abstain from playing combox theologian and familiarize yourself with St. Augustine.
Torquemada, the Church is OBVIOUSLY the CMRI! And Sanborn is the universal bishop. E-CMRI-N-S. 🙂
“Can. 335 When the Roman See is vacant or entirely impeded, nothing is to be altered in the governance of the universal Church”
Thank you for your defense of the truth, Mr. Verrecchio! I would enjoy listening and watching more of you. You are quite entertaining. God bless!
Torquemada, it’s rather ironic and laughable that you accuse me of Donatism when your whole view rests on the idea that men within the Church are not worthy to hold their position and therefore are outside the Church. Pot meet kettle. 🙂
I also seem to recall Augustine (since you want to mention him) saying something about schismatics that do everything perfectly, have a pristine Liturgy and sacraments, etc. But will not be saved do to their sin of schism.
I think Voris should apologize also and I emailed him won’t be watching his shows anymore until he does. Unfortunately, I think he is driven by economic interest. He said on one of his episodes that after refusing to apologize/rescind criticism of CCHD at the direction of some bishop who is considered a “conservative” by most, a longtime carrier of one of his show cancelled the next day (maybe two cancelled?).
What I found most interesting was that not only did Voris criticize specific people he even mentioned the exact articles they had written. All bishops are equal so the bishops in his corner do not fear (most) of their peers (still Voris is careful to criticize mostly bishops who are retired or dead or not name names) but the Pope is their boss. Already three journalists have been fired by Radio Maria, Professor Roberto de Mattei, Palmaro & Gnocchi (to add insult to injury the pope then called one of them and said how much he appreciated the criticism), and just last week Catholic Register took down Matt Archibald’s article concerning the SSPX. Archibald was quick to defend his paper and beg for no controversy (I guess so he could keep his job).
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02/dictatorship-of-tolerance-at-radio.html
“Fr Z” (& M Matt) have warned over and over NOT to criticize this pope: I guess because he’s a known retaliator, but still I could hardly believe it when Voris said don’t worry about the Franciscan Friars – someday maybe they’ll be saints. [I have my email all planned when Fr Z & Voris are in the same straits.]
I thank God for the independent voices like Remnant, Catholic Family News & this site.
Torquemada Tequila, how many priests in the SSPX support the expelled Bishop Williamson vs. the leader of the Society, Bishop Fellay? And how do you know?
You’re at least on the border of engaging in calumny.
Rest assured that I will have firsthand information regarding your silly assertion that Bishop Tissier de Mallerais was “exiled” to Chicago shortly.
In the meantime, I have to say I wish the Mr. Verrecchio would put a muzzle on you here.
A Catholic Tinker asks: “Torquemada Tequila, how many priests in the SSPX support the expelled Bishop Williamson vs. the leader of the Society, Bishop Fellay?”
I am not sure. Since week-by-week the former number keeps growing while the latter number shrinks. Fr Faure – the priest who turned down Archbishop Lefebvre’s offer of episcopal consecration – was a big surprised. As was Dom Tomas Aquino and his traditional Benedictine monks.
Anyone interested in doing a head count can visit the following URL:
http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=22261&f=19&min=0&num=3
Torquemada, I hope everyone reading this discussion reads that thread so they can see what a pile of crap the entire “Resistance” movement is.
Here is a sample: “In fact, for them {to} persist in this business under a total illusion is a sign of mental retardation or connotes an attitude of {the} guru and {the mystic}, elated by what he believes is his divine mission of “Superman” of the Church and {of} Tradition, {who} is about to reverse the anti-Catholic Revolution. Only a dreamer or ?a lunatic? can {make} such a claim, while accusing those who seriously oppose him of lacking realism and supernatural spirit. Has anyone ever seen such illusions and such pride?”
So, we have name-calling and subjective judgement of a bishop. More importantly, we have the notion of reconciliation with Rome described as “mental retardation” and an “illusion”.
The “Resistance” movement does not, as did Archbishop Lefevbre, “cleave to eternal Rome with all its heart”; rather, it believes that IT IS ROME. And so it is schismatic.
Lastly, I doubt that in this thread there are more than a HANDFUL of priests who have put their NAME to the “Resistance”.
The author of the quote above also wrote this in expressing his indignation at being expelled from the Society: “Or as then Card. Ratzinger (today Benedict XVI) said: “The problem of the Council was to assimilate the values of centuries of liberal culture” (Marcel Lefebvre, They Have Dethroned Him, introduction). Thus, it is clear that whoever accepts 95% of Vatican Council II, accepts 95% of the French Revolution inside de Church, and also assimilates centuries of liberal culture in the Church.”
That is total nonsense. As Archbishop Levebvre himself acknowledged, most of the contents of the documents of Vatican II are orthodox. What destroys the documents on the whole is the modernist teachings juxtaposed alongside the orthodox.
It is that 5% – or, in the case of some documents, more than that – that has become the New Orientation of the Church; those were the seeds that were planted by the modernists for their revolution. That is all they needed.
It is entirely consistent to say one accepts the majority of the documents but REJECTS the council on the whole.
So, this priest who insisted on repeatedly speaking out against his superiors had and has no real understanding of how the crisis was precipitated.
@Tom – well said. Francis is everywhere and so are his words and actions – it is hypocritical to pretend the small slights against the Faith from the smaller clergy are fair game – whereas many people would never hear or know without CMTV. And yet the big fish with the biggest slights is treated as an idol. I am soooooo glad, my Faith in the salvific Church of Christ and His Saints is not rooted in the passing person of the Bishop of Rome. And you are right, Tom, just like protestants some Catholics are beginning to believe that the third Person of the Holy Trinity is switched on whenever that feel moved, except it would seem that for Bergoglio it happens whenever he steps out of the lobby at Casa Marta. All I can say is, people, don’t believe THAT, for crying out loud.
p.s. we have a bishop of rome who promotes protestantism, other religions side-steps the Facts of the Faith, slanders Jesus and Mary, flouts law (washing of the women’s feet – not Apostle material – another scandal or maybe a bid for women’s ordination?), who won’t claim the title of pope, who said when he was ‘elected’, may God forgive you brothers, with a wry smile, who won’t live in the papal apartments, who insults ‘Christians’ like he has taken some sort of verbal laxative, preaches social justice against true justice like there is no tomorrow – and now looks set to overthrow 2000 years of Church teaching on divorce and remarriage. Bergoglio is a modernist – he is NOT a real catholic – you cannot be a born-again Modernist AND be anything other than a nominal Catholic.
@saluto – If, as you claim, Bergoglio is a modernist and not a true Catholic, how can he be Pope? That is, how can he be the visible head of an organization to which according to you he does not belong?
You people including Voris don’t have a clue who Jesus is and what He came to bring. Truth Does reside outside of the Catholic Church. Not the the fullness of revelation but to some degree of truth. St. Paul even stated that in Acts when speaking to the Greeks and their many gods. You all remind me of St. Paul Before he was knocked off his horse and converted. You are legalistic and blind leading the blind. You have no idea what the Spirit of the law means. Jesus broke many many of the Laws of Judaism and the Pharisees like yourselves condemned him and didn’t recognize him because He didn’t follow every tenet of the Jewish Law. God is Love and he who abides in love abides in God. that is 1 john. So anyone trying to love and follow their conscience not having any other revelation has God too. You all are Protestants and have made yourselves Pope of your own religion. it surely isn’t Catholicism you follow which you only know the letter of the teachings and not the Spirit of it. Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved whether they go to a priest or not. That’s Acts of the Apostles if you read your bible. Now you are eating each other alive with this self importance and more Catholic than the Pope idea. Condemning each other like the Pharisees did. What would the Prodigal son have done if he ran into his older brother, like yourselves, instead of his father first? Would he have received Mercy or condemnation. I desire mercy not sacrifice. Read Mt. 25 about the Judgement day. you don’t have to be Catholic to answer those questions and be allowed in with the Sheep. But legalism can’t answer those like the Pharisee who couldn’t answer Jesus’ question either because they were not according to THEIR reading of the Scriptures.
Torquemada,
Here’s where I stand, after having researched sedevacantism and spent alot of time in conversation with a well known sedevacantist priest, I’ve come to the conclusion that Pius XII being the last true pope is not entirely outside the realm of possibility, but I don;t believe that’s something I can just decide on my own. A future pope and/or council will have to settle these things, I don’t have the authority or the competency to decide for myself whether or not a man universally accepted as the Roman Pontiff actually is or not.
In the mean time, I accept all the post-conciliar popes including Francis and try to treat them in such a manner that their office demands, while at the same time guarding myself against the errors they make from time to time and helping others to do the same. I attend the TLM almost exclusively and encourage others to do so, but for now, I don’t tell anyone it’s a sin to go to the Novus Ordo. Again, I think a future pope will have to judge the Novus Ordo rites, I pray that will happen.
I don’t think if I were to die tonight, God forbid, that I would be condemned for not personally deposing the post-conciliar popes.
@Torque
“I have never heard them mock or deride Bergoglio.”
Listen to Restoration Radio to hear Bp Sanborn and Fr Cekada crack jokes about Pope Francis.
Also, whats up with the constant demand for people do respond to your questions? I don’t usually post here nor do I usually read the comments, but, wow, it’s as if you live in the comment section at Mr. Verrecchio’s site. Someone must think very highly of themselves.
In my opinion, taking a break from “the blogs” can do a person a world of good.
May God convert you.
TT – I suspect you jest, I suspect you are well aware of what modernism is and I suspect you know what nominal means. For instance, one could be a nominal republican, card-carrying, and yet still sell the blues. These days it’s all in the name but at the same time not in the name at all. In a largely modernist Church how many Catholics aren’t nominal? If one denies one dogma of the Faith, is one Catholic? We have two men whom the world currently calls ‘pope’, only one of them calls himself ‘pope’, albeit Emeritus. Bergoglio does not. He signs thing Franciscus – no mention of Pope. So what’s in a name? Some one once said, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, even if it calls itself a quack, it’s still a duck.
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there are also such things as anti-popes. If say for every twelve popes, one was a Judas, is this an uncatholic thought?
@Alex – Could you please re-write your post using standard English paragraphs and logical development of ideas? Unfortunately what you have written is quite fragmented and jumpy. Were it not for your inclusion of capitalization, I would suspect your post to be eco-feminist poetry in the style of daphne marlat.
@Mark: So you seem to have embraced sede-agnosticism personally. Fair enough. One question, though. If one were to draw an analogy to abortion, how does what you state compare to those so-called politicians (both Democrat and Republican) who say “I am personally pro-life and would never personally choose abortion, but I don’t believe I can impose my choice and personal beliefs upon others”?
@saluto – so if I understand you correctly, you are not sure if Bergoglio is pope?
What about his intention to canonize John Paul II this year?
TT – who can say? I think a Pope would be willing to claim the title, call me old fashioned or crazy, probably both are true; call me old fashioned or crazy, the date of quanoization hasn’t had it’s use-by just yet.
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p.s. does anyone else get annoyed with priests in civvies? especially in and around Mass? Who really wants to confess to a bloke in tan?
Torquemada, interesting analogy. I am saying, to be clear, that since I can’t be sure beyond a reasonable doubt about the conciliar popes, I defer judgement to a future pope and in the mean time, I will follow Pope Francis only in as much as his words and actions don’t contradict Catholic tradition, when they do, I disregard them. It’s an awful state of affairs to be in, but I haven’t heard a better solution. I remain unconvinced on the issue of sedevacantism after having spent quite some time considering it’s arguments.
Louie, you have said what needed to be said. The old saying goes, “A fish rots from the head down’. For Mike Voris not to take notice of this is strange. Does he think that all these corrupt priests and bishops just pop up on their own? No, a corrupt or incompetent Pope appoints these men or allows them to function as priests or bishops! Francis, IMHO, was one of those men. His history as a priest and bishop in his native land shows he was sympathetic to political (Peronism and communism) and religious leftism. Liberation theology) I’m going to watch Voris very closely. If he doesn’t withdraw his manifesto by summertime, I’ll cancel my premium account, and take my tenspot elsewhere.
But many saints have taught that criticism of the Pope is most displeasing to God.
While this may be true, it is not Voris’s refusal to criticize the Pope that is necessarily causing the rift, but his criticism of others who choose to do so. As Louie said many times, if Voris does not want to take that route, fine. His call. But for Voris to criticize others for not taking his own view is simply wrong. Either Franics says somehting compatibel with Catholicism or not. That is objectively verifiable, and fair game for comment. Of course, this can be all avoided with one simple solution offered by Francis himself – stop criticizing the Pope; criticize the Bishop of Rome instead. MV should be OK with that.
Well done Louie:+) I don’t know what is going on with Michael Voris. Something is just “off”. That “manifesto” was just an illogical, spewing rant. Is he burnt out? I would be if I worked as much as he did. He’s morphing into a Neo-Cath who likes the TLM. I agree with what Mundabor has said…CMTV’s position is untenable…they will hit a wall. And what happens when all he** breaks lose this year at the Synod and “canonizations”? It was CMTV’s courage to speak the truth in charity that has garnered it success with the remnant and others who truly love Our Lord. I will hold off on canceling my subscription for a bit…and hope and pray Our Lord opens his eyes:+) God bless~
Alex- The only “truth” found outside the Catholic Church is already found in the Catholic Church…all truth is Catholic in nature. The concept of salvation outside the church is in very limited, rare circumstances…”invincible ignorance” along with a heroic virtue based on the law written on every person’s heart/mind i.e. anamnesis. We are not being prideful in proclaiming the truth we have been given. We did not attain it…it was a gift given to us by Christ Himself and supported by reason and logic. There can be only ONE Church for their is only ONE truth: Jesus Christ and His Church. Conscience is not God…God is God…and conscience must be formed or can be malformed. God bless~
Louie,
I agree totally that Islam is a false and dangerous religion and I’m sure the pope knows that. As a good Catholic I pray as I should that all Muslims convert to Christianity. I think the pope does too, but he is also a world leader and politician. He has to say what he says so as not to bring danger to other Christians. It’s a pastoral strategy. Personally, I’m ready to die for the faith if the Muslims come, but not every Catholic is. I think the pope is trying to lure the Muslims in with honey rather than vinegar. Pope Benedict privately thought that it would eventually be the Blessed Mother who would convert not only European Muslims but entire nations of Muslims to her Son. Maybe Francis is trying to facilitate that in his own way.
Thank you for this ‘gore-text’
I have wondered why Voris could be so hard on all cleric offices and mute on the person to whom all answer to? I wrote to MTV about the contradiction and receive a non-sequter and god bless you (for my 10$/month I guess).
Thanks to you I know that I’m not alone in the Vortex Contradiction.
The issue it seems to me is what does it mean to be “In Communion with the Church”? Does that mean In Communion with the Pope or In Communion with Sacred Church Doctrine. Voris thinks the Pope. One day a man is a Bishop and Voris criticism him. The next day he is the Pope and immune to criticism – go figure? Has he never heard of the Borgia Popes?
It must be okay and very respectful for a Cardinal to publicly criticize the Pope and then reportedly ask others to do the same?
For example.
Pope Benedict spoke at Regensburg about Islam and quoting an ancient scholar, spoke about islam.
Cardinal Bergoglio became incensed and was very respectful towards the Pontiff, reportedly telling his minions to criticize the Pope.
He was even more respectful when he went to the media to proclaim.
“Pope Benedict’s statement don’t reflect my own opinions,”
Card. Bergoglio went on further to state.
“These statements will serve to destroy in 20 seconds the careful construction of a relationship with Islam that Pope John Paul II built over the last 20 years.”
After doing Cardinal Bergoglio’s bidding, the Vatican did remove one Joaquín Piña, the Archbishop of Puerto Iguazú of northern Argentina, who did indeed publicly criticize Pope Benedict.
As a subordinate to Cardinal Bergoglio, Archbishop Pina’s removal was a signal that the Cardinal of Buenos Aires himself could be the next to go.
As we are well aware, Cardinal Bergoglio kept his position, but in protest canceled a flight to Rome to boycott a synod Pope Benedict had called.
Such respect shown by the Cardinal to Pope Benedict.
If only Pope Benedict had a time machine…
Please pray for our Pope, for our Church and to save souls.
the reason Pope Francis is guilty of double speak is not his fault.You have to be able to read between the lines in order to understand what he is truly saying.Like John in Revelation. The Pope is not free to speak openly and directly…so don’t take everything as gospel but discern the truth he is getting out.
Voris is not helping either….it is easy to point out what is wrong….very easy…but none of you are telling us what is right….the Church is compromised because of the abuse scandal….we know that…so to keep pointing that out needs to turn into what are we going to do about this mess? What radical steps are we willing to take as the living Church to bring it back to Jesus and Mary?
tv – if I double speak, am I innocent as well? Black is white, if you know what I mean, but who is anyone to judge? White is red after another manner and we really shouldn’t obsess about the fine print. Now sin is good, sin, keep on sinning, but if we sin, we love Jesus – can you read between the lines?
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p.s. please, without double-speak and expecting one’s audience to read between the lines, what truth is he getting out?
p.s.s double speak is what satan did when he lobbied for Eve’s support on the tree. and look where that ended up.
REALLY?? THIS is what the whole furor that I’m seeing at PewSitter is all about???? Please tell me this is simply a REALLY bad joke!
Mr. Verecchio, it appears to me that if any calumny has occurred, it comes from you, not Mr. Voris. These clips you’ve shown do not shown any contradiction between what Mr. Voris said then and what Pope Francis has said recently. Not if you understand what each man is saying within their own context.
Given what Mr. Voris has said before, I think there’s no doubt that he understands well the risks related to Islam. By the way, by what Pope Francis has said–or rather, what he has NOT said–I’m confident that he understands the risks as well.
Pope Francis’ style is not one that I care for much at all either, but let’s PLEASE be bothered to understand what he’s really saying! He hasn’t justified Muslims in their beliefs, so much as he has provoked them to understand more fully the virtue that God has offered to them by the means they presently use to understand Him. By all means, let’s urge conversion, but let’s not assume that Pope Francis has decided to simply allow the Muslims to revel in sin or that Mr. Voris has approved of such a decision.
Neither has happened.
Good grief!
Great video, Louie! Bravo! May God give power to your arm.
First, I’m a follower of both CMTV/Mr. Voris and the Fatima apostolate and we lay Catholics can’t be thankful enough for the massively incredible work they all do.
However, the question of apparitions is another 900 pound gorilla in the room,
Mr. Voris used the term ‘spiritual pornography’ first in a Vortex episode last autumn about private revelations (referring to the “Warning” messages attributed to “Maria Divine Mercy” among others). At that moment I got the impression that something went wrong at CMTV – I do read the MDM messages and seem quite credible to me. If something is critical to the current pope, those messages are…
Later he explicitly denounced the MDM messages on multiple occasions. The direction that CMTV took then became predictable – first, putting a positive spin on Francis (remaining silent on dubious remarks and actions, blaming all scandals on mistranslations and the press), then going against yet-unapproved private revelations in general, such as doing a show on Medjugorje, denouncing it as false.
The current rant against the Fatima apostolate is a sad new episode of CMTV’s “new direction”. I hope Mr. Voris wasn’t coerced, blackmailed or bribed into this position and I also hope things will change and the devil’s divide-and-conquer tactics against the remnant Church will be fruitless – much prayer is needed here.
The Chair of Peter is and has been vacant since Pope Siri died in 1989. Under the diabolical manipulation of John XXlll and Paul Vl, the Freemasons took control of the Vatican and created a New World Order Religion — the Vatican ll Sect. The Novus Ordo Mass is invalid along with the Priests invalidly ordained starting June 18, 1968. Paul Vl was a Jew, Freemason, Apostate. Many Catholics rightly so did not attend this New World Religion/Faith, because they knew it was mortally sinful to do so and continued attending the true Roman Mass consecrated by valid Priests. Why did God allow this? He allowed it because of the sin of the world; He withdrew His Grace. Most of the world now lives without the Sacraments of the Church as a native born and dies in a jungle never experiencing a Catholic Missionary. Invincible Ignorance — there is NO Salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church. All Jews, Protestants, Muslims, Catholics, etc., etc., etc., go straight to Hell if they live and die outside the Roman Catholic Church. As a native in the jungle without the Sacraments of the Church, without a validly ordained Priest to absolve one of mortal sin, one cannot enter the Kingdom of God. The One and Only True Church of God, the Roman Catholic Church, does exist today and provides its people the Sacraments of the Church in diverse places. It is your solemn duty to do due diligence and desire to seek the Truth and find God. That is a Law written in all hearts.
john
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i would presume Louie used that clip to make a point about hypocrisy. CMTV have exposed and uncovered the hypocrisy of many non-catholics (a president (I remember somewhere St Paul talking about respect for leaders) catholics, some bishops – but the most destructive and maniacal modernism coming from Rome since mithras was worshipped is now being pulpitted by Francis against any continuity of truth and tradition, therefore – if they don’t want acknowledge Francis Hyde and just want shimmy with Francis Jekyll and kaspers serene theology, whatever, but do not start doing a Francis on your Faithful bretheren. Francis has shocked, saddened and appalled, the sheeple over the past year so the cmtvs start doing a Hegel on true Catholics by siding with the spiritual porn bish?
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treachery – if one does not betray Christ the King, one does not betray.
Why is it that every time I read one of these so-called “blogs” or what have you it turns into a bear-pit. It seems as though someone somewhere gets their knickers in a twist and has to start hammering someone else for their comments with which they don’t happen to agree.
As we say in Welsh: Cael bywyd!
@ A man against so many fools: What makes you the elect? Do you live a life of heroic virtue? Your righteousness must surpass everyone! Take your neo-Gnosticism and peddle it elsewhere, FOOL!
@A man against so many fools:
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Interesting! Looks you are both a Feeneyite and a Siri-Vacantist. What a relief from the usual long-winded and unoriginal drivel that passes for commentary by Louie’s other readers.
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Finally! Drivel that is short-winded and unoriginal. Mostly plagiarized from Dr. William Michael von Peters’ “The Siri Thesis” published in the late 80’s by Omni Press, if I had to guess and recall correctly.
Oops…looks like the Siri Thesis was published by Dr. William G von Peters, and not William Michael von Peters. My apologies for the mixup. Anyway, one can read about the Siri Thesis here:
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http://www.thepopeinred.com/thesis.htm
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Of course Siri-Vacantism has since been replaced by SedeBenedictPlenism. Not that the two are incompatible since Benedict was the first pope elected after Cardinal Siri’s death.
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As an aside to the handful of serious trads following this conversation, who are new to Tradition but not part of Louie’s entertaining gong-show, Cardinal Siri’s book Gethsemane is a traditionalist classic. You will find it much more helpful at explaining the fight for Tradition after Vatican II than anything you read on Louie’s blog.
Torquemada,
I’m familiar with the Siri Thesis. Where I get confused is in seeing those photos of Cardinal Siri celebrating the Novus Ordo and kissing the ring of JP II. What is the standard explanation for this again?
@Mark:
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I think I may have known the answer to that question at one time. But it has been too long since Siri-Vacantism had somewhat of a following within the traditionalist movement and its adherents debated the thesis openly. So I have long since forgotten the standard explanation.
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Your best bet is to email of Novus Ordo Watch. I believe he subscribed to Siri-Vacantism at one time.
Torquemada,
It does seem that many people seem to think there were actually 2 instances of white smoke at the ’58 conclave. Others says that’s definitely not true. I heard Tim Staples say on live radio once that Cardinal Siri was elected but did not accept and so John XXIII became our pope in ’58 after another vote. Other novus ordo catholics will say that never happened at all.
Whats your take on this?
Interesting that the SV’s have to dominate a discussion to try to force everyone to accept their views. They’re no different than modernists who also try to force
their views on the Church.
I’m not an SV. I’m just interested in hearing all points of view on the current crisis in the Church. All I gather so far from my dialogue with different groups, is that nobody really knows with absolute certainty what’s going on or what the most appropriate response should be. You have the Recognize and Resist crowd, The Hermenutic of Continuity crowd, the Sedevecantists, the Sedeprivationists, the Ecclesia Dei groups, and so on… Everyone seems to have a slightly different take on this mess, while agreeing only in that they believe that there is a mess to begin with…
@Mark:
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My take? Nobody knows what happened at the conclave that elected John XXIII except for the cardinals who were there. And they all swore an oath under pain of excommunication not to speak about it.
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As for the idea of a Pope Siri, it is not sufficient that a man be elected pope for him to become pope. He must also be received by the Church publicly and recognized publicly as pope. In this case we have an alleged pope that nobody knows about except for a handful of cardinals and Gerry Matatics groupies.
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Um, yeah….
Dear Louie
Thanks so much for being there, Michael was very wrong to do this as much as I love his ‘Vortex’ ,there is a double standard here vis a v his treatment of the Bishops and the Pope. Unfortunately, it’s not private things but very public statements that you and the others criticize and so they are already in the public sphere. These comments from the Pope just makes us Catholics hang our heads in shame and despair. It is right and just that good people such as yourselves call the Pope to account for his words and Michael needs to wake up if people are to take him seriously. I pray for the Pope every day but this Pontificate appears to be a disaster and a triumph for the Church’s enemies. God Bless You in your work.
Maria
I might have called it “The Ignore-tex”