In an interview with National Catholic Register’s Edward Pentin, Professor Massimo Introvigne, “a respected Catholic sociologist,” weighed in on the stolen blood saga.
According to Introvigne, it had to be those rascally restorationists!
To give you my gut feeling: it’s more to do with groups of what we call in sociology “fringe Catholics” – marginal groups of Catholics who want to perhaps steal in order to furnish their private chapels, and follow non-authorised private revelations, or something similar.
He explained further:
In Italy we have scores of groups of Catholics who are half in, half outside the Catholic Church and they normally follow apocalyptic private revelations not recognised by the Church and they have chapels which, from a canonical point of view, are illegal chapels. They are not authorised by a bishop and some of these groups might be enthusiastic for such important relics and to have them in their private chapels. Some of these groups are well hidden. They may await the end of the world, not believe Pope Francis is the real Pope, follow this and that ‘revelation’ of Jesus and the Virgin Mary.
Note the backhand at those dedicated to Our Lady of Fatima and her still hidden message.
Yes, Professor, sede vacantists who don’t even think that JPII was a pope, and traditionalists who recognize his papacy for the train wreck that it actually was, are willing to do damn near anything to “furnish their private chapels” with such an “important relic” as a vial of the Great one’s blood. (No, not Wayne Gretzky, the other one.)
Apparently the bar for “respected Catholic sociologist” is, like so many other things in the Church today, dreadfully low.
What will those humble Coprophagian’s acuse the Pelagians of next? Only time will tell. 😉
FYI. If a Pelagian needed to procure a relic, all he had to do is go onto ebay. Link here: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1311.R1.TR2.TRC1.A0.Xreligious+relics&_nkw=religious+relics&_sacat=0&_from=R40.
If anything positive can be said of the Coprophagian’s is that they have been consistent over the last 50 years. Consistently wrong, but let’s not sweat the small stuff.
He doesn’t mention trads at all. I am wondering if he’s rather setting up the coming hammer-blow to Medjugorje.
I also believe this is in reference to Italian Medjugorje centres, but probably Maria Divine Mercy centres, since they believe Pope Francis is a false Pope. They also operate outside of the Church within their own structures, because the alleged ‘apparitions’ of this cult are condemned by the Church. There’s a lot of them in Europe. Rest assured, I do not think he is linking the theft with Fatima or the SSPX.
Louie, this is so bizarre I can’t believe this is authentic!
I’m not sure of any trads who follow un-approved private revelations? Pretty much every one I know is primarily concerned with La Sallette or Fatima, and they’re both obviously Church-approved.
Jolly Old Baker, I think you’re spot on with this being more directed toward the Maria Divine Mercy weirdos than those of us who are attached to the TLM, defend the legitimacy of the SSPX, or try to pray & fast in accord with Our Lady’s words to the children at Fatima.
Are these signs from ‘heaven’…….the lightning above Vatican, the terror of the doves, the stealing of the blood of the ‘great’? Let us watch closely, for this might be just a beginning of these ‘mysteries’ to come to ‘light’.
“At times one gets the impression that our society needs to have at least one group to which no tolerance may be shown; which one can easily attack and hate. And should someone dare to approach them – in this case the Pope – he too loses any right to tolerance; he too can be treated hatefully, without misgiving or restraint.”
Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the remission of the excommunication of the four Bishops.
March 10, 2009
Link to Rorate Caeli here: http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/01/abp-ganswein-via-fr-lombardi-want-to.html
“(No, not Wayne Gretzky, the other one.)”
When this same vial of blood was sent to Lourdes for veneration, the Shrine and surrounding area suffered floods of “biblical proportion”. I wouldn’t want it in my house!!!
Why is the word restorationists in quotes? The word doesn’t appear at all in the text of the interview., and Introvigne does not allude to them.
His term “fringe Catholics” sounds more like those groups who are devoted to the messages of Medjugorje and of Maria “Divine Mercy”. In contrast, what “non-authorised … apocalyptic private revelations” do you think he was referring to?
I did not detect any hint of disdain for Our Lady of Fatima. And not believing Francis to be a true pope does not necessarily go hand-in-hand with not believing John Paul II was a true pope.
The most frightening thing that could happen with the vial of blood is that the cells be used to clone JPII. Dolly the ewe, why not JPII? This is within the realm of possibility whatwith the immoral experiments that have come to fruition in modern genetics labs. Human embryoes have been created who have three parents. We are told they have been “destroyed” (killed) but one day they will be implanted and brought to maturity. It’s a matter of time.
You gotta laugh – from the interview ‘there is no hard evidence…to connect Satanism to a lot of stuff. [however] TO GIVE YOU MY GUT FEELING’. Becuase that’s hard evidence.
And why would anyone other than a vatitooii want JPII’s relics?
p.s. S.Armaticus – who knew that e-bay has more relics than NOwhere land? I wonder what peope do with them?
I agree with, Louie. Why did this sociologist even open his mouth on this? Pointless. The police think it’s satanists, it probably is. In the book ‘The Rite’ the author covers the problem of satanic crime (it’s always a sin, but not always a crime) in Italy.
In the e-bay link I did not see actual relics., the bodily remains of the saints, but rather mostly just old catholic stuff. I’m sure that actual relics are sold, but I’m not sure that it is that common.
As far as the blood of JPII goes, I’d expect most traditionalists are waiting to see if a canonization actually takes place. I know I am. To my mind, JPII is a doubtful candidate, yet I believe that canonizations are infallible. But I don’t know if the Holy Spirit uses them as examples, or if He lets some slip through the gate, so to speak. So, within the next few months, we’ll will see: either a new pope who can’t or won’t canonize, war, unrest, or disasters that prevent a canonization, or a canonization that would indicate that JPII, in his personal holiness, merited heaven, whatever else he might have done or omitted doing.
It has been said that no pope who has not been canonized has made it into heaven. That the Popes that are Saints are the only Popes to have the beatific vision. This makes sense to me, considering the weight of the office, and to the extent that popes lives are open to the Church. I’m not exactly a student of history, but I’m not familiar with any other age of the church that so many popes were desired to be canonized for political reasons.
Christopher Ferrara apparently thought that it was possible that Benedict XVI resigned so that he would not have to canonize JPII. I’m not sure that this is true, but if so, perhaps that does not bode well for Pope Francis. After all, the visions of Fatima suggested that they saw a “bishop dressed in white” who seemed “like the Holy Father” was blessing corpses in a ruined Rome. Was it Francis?
Is it possible that they saw an Emeritus Pope after upheavals denoting the beginnings of the Great Chastisement as the 100 year anniversary of Fatima (and our ignoring of Our Lady’s pleas) approaches?
The French Revolution (a clear chastisement of France) began 100 years – almost to the day – after Louis XIV refused to consecrate France to the Sacred Heart as Our Lord requested of him through St. Margaret Mary Alacoque.
Just speculating. But something has to reverse the the tide that is engulfing our society, culture, nations, and Church….
Redfeather: there are support groups for young adults who were IVF embryos who suffer depression because of their lost siblings – all the others that didn’t ‘take’.
paul said: But something has to reverse the the tide that is engulfing our society, culture, nations, and Church….
but what will it be?
paul said: But something has to reverse the the tide that is engulfing our society, culture, nations, and Church….
saluto asked: but what will it be?
Saluto, I bring you good news.
Another one in the Win column. Link here:
The answer to your question is that the Faithful must rebuild the Bride of Christ “brick by brick”. Once Lex Orandi is put in place, Lex Credendi follows:)
Pray for St.Stan’s in Milwaukee.
Also pray for St. Stan’s in Chicago. They are lost, and trying to find some way to differentiate themselves. They should take an example form St. John Cantius, which incidentally is about a mile down the road, and return to Tradition.
Pray that St. Stan’s in Chicago.
St. Michael Archangel, ora pro nobis,
Archbishop Lefebvre, ora pro nobis.
PS In the above post, I am referring to St. Stanislaw Kostka in Chicago. But the same goes for St. Stanislaw Bishop and Martyr.
“That the Popes that are Saints are the only Popes to have the beatific vision.”
## Not possible – the Beatific Vision is what makes the Blessed blessed: to be in Heaven at all, is to see God face to face.
1. the BV is not enjoyed by all the Saints (which is heretical) – or
2. 1 Cor. 13 is in error in saying the Blessed shall see God face to face (which borders on heresy) – or
3. The sainted Popes are the only Saints (which is not exactly compatible with Catholic teaching) – or:
4. Supposing 3. to be true, all the Saints are Popes (which is not true).
God bless ye bringer of good tidings!
Will definitely send up some roses for St. Stan’s.
p.s. God bless Restorationists.
Well, fellow catholics, only 80 something days to go before the “canonization” of “St” JP II “The Great”. Will the world end before that date? Surely not. What will happen? Francis will proceed with the “canonizations” and all catholics will be bound to accept them lest they wish to be labeled as heretics…
Unless, of course, Francis is not a true pope who doesn’t enjoy the charism of infallibility conferred by the Holy Ghost ; )
Regarding “private revelations” that have not been approved by the Church one must be VERY careful… Many of these apparitions (eg Medjugorje) deny one or various catholic dogmas or have Our Lady saying simply silly things… Many people who otherwise are good intentioned, faithful catholics, have been led astray by these apparitions, many of which are false… Many of these false apparitions are being used by the Adversary as distractions from real apparitions approved by Holy Mother Church, which have a very specific message to the church and mankind.
BTW, we shouldn’t be surprised at all if the Vatican confers some kind of legitimacy to the bogus Medjugorje apparitions (the final decisión by the CDF apparently will come shortly) as we are dealing with apostate clergy within that very same congregation + and apostate “pope”.
“It has been said that no pope who has not been canonized has made it into heaven.”
I’m not sure where you heard such a thing, but this is obviously not true. Many people seem to forget the catholic definition of sanctity – I believe there is a misunderstanding going round the blogosphere (promoted chiefly by Mundabor) that a CANONIZED saint is one who is merely enjoying the beatific vision; the truth is the Church canonizes candidates based on the virtuousness of their life, essentially such a person will have performed HEROIC acts of charity, faith, and other virtues; the canonized person is thus an EXAMPLE to the entire church as a MODEL to follow. The latter is important – hence people such as JP II are utterly ludicrous candidates for canonization. Unless you consider the Assisi abominations and the entire ecumenical theology as saintly of course. Only the conciliar Church would hold such a view.
I’m not familiar with any other age of the church that so many popes were desired to be canonized for political reasons
I suppose it may have happened, but that is why the Church seemed to wait such a long time before starting the canonization process – to let those political flames die down first. Newman’s cause has been going on for a hundred years, and others have taken centuries. This fast track stuff seems a bit hasty.
Please note that :
it was not a vial, but a piece of stuff coming from Pope’s vest worn by him on incident day
part of it has been already found
apparently it was the deed of two drug addicts
LOL! Oh, yes, I’m sure traditionalist are going to steal the blood of John Paul II. Not! Just too funny! Also, as someone already mentioned, all the traditionalists in my congregation are the LEAST likely of any group to believe in questionable apparitions and messages.
Likely either Medjupsychos or homo/atheist activists.
…or just plain old criminals…
Thieves admit to stealing relic of Blessed JP II http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2014/01/30/thieves-admit-to-stealing-relic-of-blessed-john-paul-ii/
Saluto, I am fully aware of the fallout of IVF. Do you get the New Oxford Review? If not, please do subscribe. Everyone on this site ought to subscribe. It’s a meaty, fun, fully orthodox Catholic journal. It’s out of Berzerkley, California no less! Go online for subscription info. There is an excellent article on the genetic and reproductive horrors taking place as we speak. 88% of donor eggs are now used by homosexuals. The Brave New World is here.
New Oxford Review is a publication of some merit that has some wonderful material. But coming from a group of editors who did not hesitate to denigrate Michael Matt and The Remnant for reservations regarding the beatification of JPII, and effectively equating him with left-wing dissidents, I’m going to pass on subscribing to them until their vacillation over the fullness of Tradition comes to a complete and definitive end.
What traditionalists would want to defile their holy places with the relics of that apostate? Traditionalists Catholics are zealous for the law of God and do not commit sins like theft. Only Vatican II’ers would want such things.
That’s when I decided to let my subscription lapse
Redfeather said: 88% of donor eggs are now used by homosexuals
Lord have mercy on those children. How can the ‘parents’ not get that it is so WRONG! It’s inculturation = if the culture says it’s fine it doesn’t matter what God thinks – a contemporary evil if ever there was one.
Berzerkley = heheh.
p.s. I have a remnant subscription, God bless Michael Matt, haven’t heard that the NOR have dissed him. Shame that the JPII raised to the altars thing should separate like-minded Catholics. I don’t think the canonization will take place. If it does, either A. we have to assume that the suffering in JPII’s later years were a purification of the unfortunate religious indifferentism he espoused [while living he said this:
from kwtraditionalcatholic site:
‘the following apology by Pope John Paul II (addressing bishops in 1980), quoted in a beautiful letter (1988) by Most Rev. John R. Keating: I WOULD LIKE TO ASK FORGIVENESS — in my own name and in the name of all of you, venerable and dear brothers in the episcopate — for everything which, for whatever reason, through whatever human weakness, impatience or negligence, and also through the (at times) partial, one-sided, and erroneous application of the directives of the Second Vatican Council, may have caused scandal and disturbance concerning the interpretation of the doctrine and the veneration due to this great sacrament.]
or, the pope is acting out of his briefs, so to say.
You’re saying JP II’s ecumenical abominations (such Assisi I – 1986- AND Assisi II – 2002, among other such aberrations committed during JP II’s pontificate) is an EXAMPLE and a MODEL to follow by Catholics throughout the entire Church? Can you give ONE single SHRED of evidence to SUGGEST JP II turned away from his ecumenical theology during the later years of his life??
I’d be surprised if you do, otherwise you have become the latest victim – and sorry to say this: yes, dupe – of the conciliar revolution.
To even remotely think that JP II’s “The Great” “canonization” is not going to go forward as planned lest some catastrophic world event take place (I’m not holding my breath there) is pure delusion.
“Behold I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be ye therefore wise as serpents and simple as doves.” Matthew 10:16
@Jimmy: What I said was that there is an opinion that the only popes that are in heaven (that are saints) are those that have been canonized. Pope St. Whomevers are the only POPES to have the Beatific Vision. I did not mention any other saints. I don’t know how that got garbled. The reasoning behind this is that the Church most certainly knows its own popes, and so can make a judgement on them. I don’t necessarily hold this opinion, but it does have a certain logic to it.
@Edu: I believe it was a saint who said that uncanonized popes have missed heaven. I don’t have a citation, but was just offering that for discussion. In my comment, I did allow for JPII to have made it into heaven based upon his personal holiness, but there are certainly reservations to be made, due to the fact that properly performing one’s station in life is essential for sanctity. The church can certainly tell whether or not one of her popes properly performed his very exalted station in life, and so if she sees fit not to canonize him, it seems to be a bad sign.
I agree that JPII would be a scandalous example for sainthood, especially when compared to the many saints the church has held up throughout the millenia. It seems obvious to me that there is an ulterior motive behind the push for his canonization. But I think that the Holy Spirit does guarantee that canonized saints are in heaven (or on their way there) despite the mundane motives behind the push to canonize. So, if JPII is canonized, he is in heaven – but not due to his kissing the Koran, holding the Assisi parties, or ignoring the homosexual abuse infecting the Body of Christ.
I hope JPII makes it to heaven, but I’d prefer he not be canonized for the very reasons you mentioned.
My point is a canonized saint is not merely someone who is enjoying the beatific vision but is someone who the Church declares to be an example to be followed by all the members of the Mystical Body of Christ. You just told me the reasons how he is not an example to be followed and hence not a saint of the Church.
Edu. Colour me deluded till I can be so coloured no more – I hope no canonizations of JXXIII, PaulVI or JPII take place as is being proposed. I know that if JPII is canonized all people will see being canonized is his religious indifference – that is all that will be raised to the altars, that and his approval of females around the sanctuary during Mass – no one will care about the stream of orthodoxy in other matters and how much of a battle he fought with anti-papist Jesuits, and lost.
I hope and pray the whole thing doesn’t take place, even if he is in heaven. In fact if he is in heave, I’d pray to him to not let it happen because his legacy of religious indifference far outwieghs his solidarity work (with the Church or his countrymen) – just my opinion as a late comer.
Now if he had publicly recanted for all those scandals, then it might be a different story, but all he apologized for publicly is the Bride of Christ.
overall, what Paul said: I agree that JPII would be a scandalous example for sainthood.
God preserve the authenticity of the Communion of Saints.
p.s. Fr Hunwicke ask what we want to know:
Introvigne sounds like a true fringe character. He’s very fringe. Watch out for guys like him.