Now serving table wine and bread

Comments (84)

1. And doubt means , AVOID. That goes for confession too. In addition, the Rites of Ordination have been so altered as to introduce grave doubt. Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi. The NO V2 sect acts like the bread and wine are just bread and wine. We should start taking their word for it. Why do trads pretend what the NO does not even pretend anymore?

2. Dear Tom A,

   What do we make of the tremendous previous changes suffered by the Latin Roman Rite, then? While I cannot dare to pronounce the rites themselves invalid, and do not believe they are, it is undeniable that the substitution of Leavened Bread for Azymes is a grave judaizing innovation, as was the proper accusation against the Armenians, who first introduced this practice. What about the loss of the Iconostasis, whose empty remains can be found in the older Latin remains, such as in St. Mark’s, Venice? What about loss of Holy Communion under both species as one? The holiness of the rite signifies the union of Body and Blood in The True Sacrifice, instead of their separation, as with every other shadow and typical sacrifice of all religions, so that both The Incarnation and our own Union With God is signified. This is only kept for priestly communion, in the Latin Roman Rite, yet withheld from the faithful, although Christ, certainly Prophesying, Commanded: “Drink ye all of It”, which “all” He spoke not for His Body, interestingly. The Rite itself is gravely simplified and short, unlike even the older Latin Missals, as the old Toledo or Visigothic Missal, falsely called Mozarabic.

   Why were the ancient rites practically everywhere suppressed, with the Tridentine Reforms? Is this not the same suppression carried out by the Novus Ordo Reforms? You see, it is not the first time that the Roman Church has deviated from Tradition, as even the Gregorian Calendar directly violates the Canons Of Nicaea I, which, among other things, also specifies that no kneeling is allowed on Sundays, since The Resurrection is signified, as well as specifying many other moral rules. Do not forget that even the very Creed received modifications, despite explicit prohibition, and anathema to anyone who would introduce any changes, by Pope Leo III, whose silver tables containing the unmodified Symbol Of Faith, as a testament against innovation, are still kept in Rome, and John IV. Is this not a clear contradiction of Tradition, then? Why were organs and Lutheran songs and pews introduced into the Divine Liturgy, not to mention the removal of the Iconostasis or Altar Screen and Curtain or Altar Veil, destroying the very important Temple-Sacrificial Symbolism, which are all tremendous Roman concessions to Protestant innovations? Remember that even the manner of signing one’s self has been modified, despite Pope Innocent III clearly teaching otherwise, explaining why the Eastern manner must be kept!

   How could this all be? Where were those who protested against the many innovations, then, in the West? I hope you see that Vatican-II is not the first time such situations have happened, and hundreds more could be mentioned. Traditionalism must truly be integral, and not catering to myths of the shameless, lying Jesuits of the last few centuries. You see why Richard Ibranyi at least is honest enough to postulate a Vacancy of the Roman See going back to a millennium ago, if we were to apply the principles of modern Sedevacantism, which uphold the errors of Papalism, as Fr. Hesse rightly called this heresy. In fact, it is only because of modern communications and easy access to worldwide information that we now are aware of Rome’s most recent and modern attempt to innovate again, and are thus reacting in defense, with proper arguments, as did the Old Catholics in their time, yet many defend and keep the previous innovations in complete contradiction to their own defended Principle Of Immutability! If one change or series of changes and innovations is thus allowed, why not all others? Were is the threshold to be held, then, if modification is allowed, and Immutability stands already denied, so that one is hopelessly lost? I hope you understand why these myths of “The Unchanged Pre-Vatican-II Church” are the greatest ally to perpetuate Modernism and the traps of The Ancient Serpent and his own, for the whole system itself, and all its assumptions, are what is false and to be rejected for the Fullness Of Purity as beheld with the Fathers. Alone with such clear vision can a restoration to Catholic Tradition, preserving Patristic Orthodoxy, be accomplished.

   By the way, please read, if possible, my previous reply to you, in the previous post:
   https://akacatholic.com/coming-soon-ecumenical-mass-lady-deacons-end-to-clerical-celibacy/

   I would like to know if you agree with those postulates, as well. God Bless you in your love for Truth Divine. May He Grant us, poor sinners, Vision Of His True Light, Through, With, and In His True Light.

   -AOC

3. “What about the loss of the Iconostasis, whose empty remains can be found in the older Latin remains, such as in St. Mark’s, Venice? ”
   FYI..St Mark’s in Venice is filled with stolen relics and artifacts from Constantinopole during the infamous Fourth Crusade for which Roman Catholics incurred shame.
   There is and was enough shame to go around and cover both the East and the West.
   ” Why do trads pretend what the NO does not even pretend anymore?”
   Because we were taught to Believe Tom, to REALLY Believe, and giving up that Belief incurs so much guilt we just cannot do it because we dare not trample over that “just in case” it is all right with God ( aka the Pope whom we MUST obey ).
   Moral and Theological certitude have been so very obscured by the smoke of Satan.
   Stay close to our Mother and pray the rosary daily.
   https://www.veritascaritas.com/podcast/novena-in-honor-of-our-lady-of-mt-carmel-day-6-part-2/

4. AOC, you bring up way too much to respond to. Briefly, however, your list of changes directed by the Latin Church prior to 1958 do not in my opinion change the essence or substance of the faith or the liturgy. At least once a month I attend a Melkite Rite Liturgy. Although certainly not an Eastern liturgical expert, I can easily see the essence of a Holy Sacrifice in the Melkite Liturgy. This essence of Holy Sacrifice is also very prevelant in the Tridentine Rite. I am sure we both agree this essence is completely lacking in the Novus Ordo Rite. I will not agrue about the wisdom of these changes. The changes were accidental and not substantial and the Roman Pontiff, being the Patriarch of the Latin Church was within his jurisdiction to legally promulgate the accidental changes. So I disagree with what appears to be your premise that the changes brought by V2 were simply more accidental changes issued by the Latin Church.

5. What I meant Sweep was why do we trads pretend that the NO eucharist is the Real Presence when the NO church no longer pretends its real.

6. AOC: Are you a member of the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church?

7. “The takeaway from all of this for me was simple; these people don’t really believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Most Holy Eucharist.”

   Louie, I also remember these directives re: the flu at the time. Although I didn’t come to the same conclusion as you did here (because I was still clueless as to what was really going on at the Novus Ordo church), I remember thinking I was not worried about “getting infected” because I believed that it was truly the Body and Blood of Christ.

8. Austrian Orthodox…..what about your heretical “marriages of mercy” that Francis is trying to cntl-p on to the Catholic Faith? What about your allowance of contraception and diabolically low birthrates from Russia, to Greece to Bulgaria? There simply won’t be any Orthodox Christians left in 100 years, so why should we listen to you.

   Saint Mark’s ect was under Byzantine control for a time, that is where those innovations came from: they were never Roman. Leavened bread was never Roman either. The Roman See was founded by Saints Peter and Paul, both Jews. Constantinople was founded by a pagan, Constantine, who was baptized by a heretical priest Arian priest on his deathbed. The other Eastern Patriarchs only gain authority from a tangential association to Saint Peter, and most of them, sometimes all, fell into heresy during the 1st Millennium.

   Christ used unleavened bread so why can’t we? More of the same accusations from the mixed-up logic of the Eastern mindset. Take the log out of your own eye and stop defaming the sanctity of marriage.

   The Patriarch of Moscow himself said that the Roman Rite was the oldest extant Rite when he wrote to Benedict XVI on the occasion of Summorum Pontificum. The Roman Canon was already ancient when yours were just forming in their present state. Now buzz off.

9. That’s correct sweep…..the Eastern artifacts in Venice were carted off from the Fourth Crusade. I was thinking of Ravenna and elsewhere were that heavily Byzantinized.

10. Dear Tom A,

    I believe my point was not entirely understood. What I meant to say is: The actual beginning of the Novus Ordo Missae is centuries old, and was in the making ever since the Roman Church exceeded its jurisdiction in unilaterally changing that which is truly essential, and breaking the canons to which it was bound, under pain of anathema. How can an anathema be lifted and transformed into its opposite? This constitutes a certain innovation that cannot be classified as accidental. St. Cyprian, St. Firmilian, St. Dionysius Of Alexandria, and uncountable others, excommunicated Pope Stephen for far less, even, and they were not the only Fathers to excommunicate or anathematize Roman Patriarchs. Take Pope Vigilius, for example, who was excommunicated and deposed by the Fifth Ecumenical Council, and his errors were persecuted in his successors, such as Pope Boniface, who was accused by many, such as St. Columbanus, of following in his heresy, not to mention the many Roman Bishops that were deposed by Emperors. And who accepts the utter madness of the pseudo-dogmas of Gregory VII’s Dictatus Papae, for instance, being entirely against all common sense and reason, which many theologians, ever since its publication, were and are profoundly ashamed of? You also have the Council Of Constance, which deposed three Roman Popes, solemnly pronouncing the dogma of the superiority of councils over Roman Pontiffs, in accordance with all of Tradition, as subsequently accepted by Martin V and other Roman Popes, until the dogma was unilaterally repudiated by power-mad successors, thus technically incurring the anathema. If Rome were truly the Center and Source of Unity, then the many saints, including the entire Second Ecumenical Council, opposed by an anti-synod of the schismatic Pope Damasus and usurper Paulinus Of Antioch, against the holy Constantinopolitan Synod presided by St. Meletius Of Antioch, St. Gregory Nazianzen and St. Macarius, who died outside of communion with Rome, and thousands of such saints are recognized, are falsely venerated as such, contradicting Papalist claims of indefectibility and infallibility either way.

    Pius IX, moreover, directly supported and financed all revolutions against Christian Monarchies he possibly could, and openly blasphemed in pronouncing himself “The Third Incarnation Of Christ” and “The Incarnate Holy Spirit”, rewarding and lauding those who called him “The True Eucharist”, and even having “Deus” replaced by “Pius” in the Nona Liturgy at Rome! All of this is abundantly documented, even from the very Civilta Cattolica he himself founded!

    I am certain the Novus Ordo rite is not truly Christian, since it breaks with all marks of Apostolicity, and, as the great saint, Fr. Hans Milch, said, if that Mass is valid, which is something we cannot entirely determine, though it is certainly doubtful, it is no different than a sacrilegious Black Mass, which means it must be avoided at all costs. And yet, as the 10th Anniversary German Publication of the FSSP correctly explained, the Novus Ordo Missae was directly commissioned by Pius XII, who, in his Sacramentum Ordinis, explicitly claimed the Roman Pontiff has power to change even the very essence of sacraments, not Montini, who merely applied what was already tasked and began with the Psalms and Holy Week Reforms, carried out by Bugnini, whom Pius XII personally chose, to the point that Fr. Hesse rightly called Montini “Pacelli’s best apprentice/student”, and explained extensively why he must be counted as part of the Neo-popes, in order to avoid blindfolded hypocrisy, as they are all part of OTO-founder Cardinal Rampolla’s unholy clan, according to very powerful evidence.

    Vatican-II is the natural consequence of Vatican-I, as the council explicitly proclaims, for, now that the Roman Pope is confirmed to be omnipotent, and can do whatever he wants with his church, and councils are impotent against him in all matters, not to mention useless, as his single proclamations annul the need for any future council, further claiming Universal Jurisdiction, which Pope St. Gregory The Great anathematized and openly considered a mark of Antichrist, only a revolutionary and “pastoral council” resetting the Roman Church from scratch, and proclaiming an ecumenistic world-church of indifferentism, could possibly remain. It was the obvious final result and consequence of Vatican-I, and all of this was explicitly predicted by Bishop Reinkens, who anathematized Pius IX, way back in the 19th Century.

    As you can see, there is much more than is apparent at first sight, and the unfortunate revisionist claims of Mario Derksen, who is behind Novus Ordo Watch, and has always cowardly deleted my posts, and the likes of the Dimond Brothers, whose sect is very dangerous, all are contradicted by history. They remain in denial, still grieving over the clear fact that their “perfect” church defected and apostatized against all dogmas proclaiming the impossibility of such a fact, and thus invent all kinds of theories to save their idealized “Perfect church” and recognize their own error in following delusions, refusing to acknowledge the validity of our well-demonstrated claims against the Papalist dogmas, thus doing even more damage to Catholics, by keeping them chained to error, chasing shadows, being a false resistance, not unlike the modern “R&R” groups, whose position was valid during the times of confusion immediately after the council, yet still remain in their own Limbo without making a choice of formally accepting or rejecting the Roman Church, even if they reject it in practice. Vatican-II, indeed, as an FSSP priest once told me, many years ago, is a Red Herring.

    May God Help us all. Kyrie Eleison.

    -AOC

11. One bi-ritual priest (says a NO ceremony & a Latin Mass) I knew used the flu outbreak to eliminate the Grope of Peace – thank God. When the flu season was over, it too was gone for good. It was always un-comfortable for me pretending to give “peace” to some un-vetted stranger – I suspect most men hate it too.
    The discussions going on here about validity of Holy Orders etc., etc., to me are a bore. My bi-ritual priest was ordained in the NO rite. So his hosts were consecrated in the NO rite also. He is trying to do the restoration, but it comes in small victories here and there. I am sure if he could make every Mass a Latin Mass he would. When I was going to adoration at his parish, I was experiencing small miracles regularly. It was extraordinary to experience – and I don’t believe this would have happened if this priest was somehow “invalid”. He was a very holy man, who revived the Latin Mass at our little parish despite some fierce opposition.
    Michael F Poulin

12. Dear 2Vermont,

    I certainly do not consider myself a member of the Heterodox Church, but of the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church, which is manifest wherever the Orthodox Catholic Faith is present. I can tell you, however, that it is evident that the Roman Church broke away from The Catholic Church long before Vatican-II. I hope you can gather the evidence for yourself, with God’s Grace.

    -AOC

13. Dear Sweepoutthefilth,

    I second all of what you have said. The tragedy of the Fourth Crusade, and the shedding of blood among Christian brothers must never be repeated. We are still paying collectively for all of those sins and human ambitions. Your experience with the Eastern Churches, and your communicating at an Orthodox parish certainly gives you a better view of things. I pray we are able to get out of this crisis, somehow, united once more, for, as Metropolitan Archbishop Tarasios recently said, it is a scandal for both halves of Christ’s Church to be divided, yet they cannot unite until men leave their sinful ambitions and return united to the Church of the Fathers. May it be so.

    -AOC

14. So are you Old Catholic?

15. So you are an Orthodox schismatic.

16. This is absolutely true, the people were advised to receive in the hand and not on the tongue. It was under the auspices of concern about the flu, but it was disconcerting to see that respect for Our Lord should take a back seat over personal concerns over the transmission of a flu virus, admittedly in CT., a bad one.
    Bishop Michael Cote is one of the CT bishops, whose letters to the flock in the Four County Catholic have become primarily focused on social justice issues of late. This publication is online I believe, so see for yourself. In fact, just a few months ago, we were surprised to see in that paper that illegal migrants were encouraged to RESIST any efforts at enforcement of ICE laws, to the extent that they were/are given legal support on how to resist and “file applications”, from the diocese, and to not even open the door! I suspect the diocese is receiving monies for bringing in numbers of people from Haiti and perhaps the Middle East. At the least, they are encouraging people not to cooperate with American law enforcement on this issue, which to us, is absolutely shocking coming from our church leaders. It is obviously an attempt to recoup money lost by the vaporizing of CT Catholics, but what a bizarre reality we have today, where our own bishops actively promote refusing to cooperate with legitimate American law and enforcement, and even provide resources to thwart the process. Where ARE we.

17. Another reason history proves the Roman Catholic Faith is true and not the Orthodox Faith is the tide of history. The Orthodox World went from being the dominant wing of Christianity and a fantastically prosperous empire to being almost utterly destroyed by Islam (only the emergence of Russia which came centuries later saved that culture). The great Orthodox bastion of Russia was then itself almost entirely destroyed by Communism, which it still hasn’t recovered from. What did the Orthodox do that was so bad to deserve this horrific punishment? Look at poor Greece and it’s loss of all of Turkey–the heart of its culture to Islam and the horrible suffering up until the 1920’s?

    Now look at Italy. The Italians were incredibly sinful people, but they had the True Faith. This was enough for Our Lord—even a little faith goes a long way. When were they ever really punished? Never really. Sure they had small inter-city wars, they had Mussolini (but lost fewer men in WWII than France did! And a small amount of civilian deaths considering a major Allied campaign tore through their country), but nothing compared to the devastation wrought on Protestant Germany from 1500-1945 (Peasants Revolt, Wars of Religion, Frederick the Great’s wars, Napoleon’s conquests, ect ect won’t both mentioning the 20th century). The closest they came was WWI losses.

    Italy ever conquered by Islam or a foreign culture? No…..today perhaps they will be, but they have chosen to abandoned the Catholic Faith via heresy, the way the Orthodox abandoned it through schism and then heresy.

    Italy destroyed by Communism? No. Tens of millions murdered and religion banned? No. The Italians have gotten off easy for centuries….they’ve never really been punished in proportion to their sins while they were Catholic. This proves the providential truth of the Catholic Faith versus the Orthodox.

18. Since when did believers in the Real Presence of the Body,Blood,Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament worry about catching germs .What would happen if every person who takes a bath in Lourdes’s expected the water changed after every person who entered it.Its a known fact that no one has ever contracted a illness or disease from the Lourdes’s bathes despite thousands using it with all manner of illnesses and diseases,and the Blessed Sacrament is the Real Presence of Him from whom illness,disease,and demons flee.There really is something sinister going on in these Churches.

19. AOC, this topic is about the flu and the NO eucharistic sacrament. I agree that all Eastern (schismatic or not) eucharistic sacraments are valid, and there are grave doubts about the NO sacraments. You seem to want to make this debate about the Great Schism. I am not qualified to debate that topic.

20. Can’t hurt no ickle Protestants wittle feeling. They might not come and pray with us anymore! Same people who don’t conditionally Baptize people who were baptized in a Protestant sect. Why? Does the Novus Ordo no longer believe in salvation by Baptism? Clearly not.

21. Semper Fidelis,

    It is lamentable that you have fallen for all of the unchristian aggressiveness of the world, proper of the lies constructed through, with and in it. Your reply did not need all of the unnecessary rage. And yet, I do not judge you, for I was like you, years ago, intoxicated as I was by “Traditionalist” propaganda, until I realized these traditions were only two centuries old, at best.

    The Moscow Patriarch, like every other man, is not infallible, and more than once has spoken in error. He is not my patriarch, in any case, and I do not have to agree with him or any other man when he speaks falsely, unlike what your patriarchs “infallibly” have claimed in uncountable mutual contradictions. We have the texts of the earliest liturgies, even those of the first century itself, and none of them even remotely resemble the Roman Canon. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the Liturgy Of St. James, the Liturgy Of St. Mark, Liturgy Of Apostles Addai & Mari, the Liturgy Of St. Hippolytus, the Liturgy Of The Apostolic Constitutions, and the many Latin Rite Liturgies that precede the present Roman one.

    How could Christ have used unleavened bread? It was not yet Pascha, so it is impossible for Him to have used it! If it would have been the Paschal Night, they would have been obliged to eat azymes, standing, and in haste, with loins girded, shoes on, and staff in hand (Ex. 12:11); on the contrary, they ate bread, reclining at the table. Furthermore, the Jews had not yet eaten the Passover at the time when Christ was being lead to His Passion, which was the morning after The Last Supper or Institution Of The Eucharist: “Then they lead Jesus from Caiaphas into the Prætorium; and it was early. And they themselves entered not into the Prætorium, in order that they should not be defiled, but that they might eat the Passover”(Jn. 18:28). The Gospel According To St. John clearly states that it was “before the feast of the Pascha” (Jn. 13:1) when Our Lord, after the Mystic Supper, washed the disciples’ feet (v. 5). Christ, The New Passover, The Lamb of God (Jn. 1:29), was sacrificed the next day, Holy And Great Friday, to fulfill the completion of the type in the antitype, the Passing Over from typical shadow to antitypical Light. The Holy Fathers unanimously taught that Christ was sacrificed on The Cross on the actual day and hour when the Passover of The Law was sacrificed. All theological, historical and linguistic evidence is absolutely clear on this subject. Our Lord Used Ἄρτος, according to the Scriptures, which can never mean Αζυμα. What you are emptily claiming has no evidence behind it.

    Old Rome was founded by a pagan, and New Rome, Constantinople, by an Emperor who has always been venerated as a saint, yet this is entirely irrelevant. St. Peter never founded the Roman See nor was ever its bishop, seeing that he died either during the late reign of St. Anacletus or early reign of St. Clement, who were the second and third Roman Bishops, respectively, as is clear from the testimony of the Early Fathers! Moreover, why did St. Paul write to the Christians in Rome and yet not even mention nor know anything of St. Peter, if he was their bishop or founder of their See? He goes out of his way to mention even laymen, and yet no mention is made of St. Peter! Further, St. Luke’s Acts mention nothing at all of St. Peter ever being in Rome, but rather, seeing he was the Apostle for the Circumcised, and because he was Bishop Of Antioch, it is obvious that he was to be found where the Jews lived in abundance, namely Antioch, Babylon, and not Rome. That he was martyred together with St. Paul we know, yet we know nothing at all of any active work of his in Rome, rather we only ever hear of his going to be martyred there, as all evidence shows us. Why do you build your church and hopes on man, on sand, and not Christ, Who Is The Rock, as all Fathers unanimously teach throughout the centuries, not a single one knowing anything about the heretical interpretation, condemned even by the Council Of Trent, in its fourth session, of St. Peter being the rock? Remove this single myth of a man’s founding and presiding over a local church and this new creed crumbles.

    I believe I have sufficiently demonstrated, in other posts, how much the saintly Church Fathers thought of the Roman Bishop’s authority. From St. Polycarp onwards, according to the clear testimony we have, there was not one instant a single Church Father considered the Roman Bishop superior to any other, nor the source of the rest, as made evident by their opposition, correction or excommunication of any Roman Bishop they found deviating from the Orthodox Catholic Faith, as with any other bishop, but rather each one considered himself, even when being laymen, “The Rock”, and each single cleric, as St. John Chrysostom tells us, in the second book of his work “On The Priesthood”, was considered a “Successor Of Peter”, a title which should belong, above all, to the Patriarch Of Antioch, if any, as well as to the Pope Of Alexandria, for they have inherited the See Of Peter, as even Pope St. Gregory The Great tells us!

    Orthodoxy grows faster than any other Christian denomination at the present, so your assertions are absurd, particularly since those in communion with Rome are those who seem to have the highest rate of use of contraception and even abortion, among Christian denominations. Unlike the Roman Church and its wicked obligations to perform evil acts, even of apostasy, under all manner of threats, what any bishop or priest allows in his diocese is his own responsibility, being judged by God for his acts and guidance or misguidance, and there is no obligation to obey or heed him, as doctrine and canons are fix since the earliest days of Holy Church, unlike your evolutions and constant changes “to fit the times”, as has been going on for centuries without end. We ought to follow what was decreed by the Seventh Council Of Carthago, presided by St. Cyprian, against the Pope Stephen: “For neither does any of us set himself up as a bishop of bishops, nor by tyrannical terror does any compel his colleague to the necessity of obedience; since every bishop, according to the allowance of his liberty and power, has his own proper right of judgment, and can no more be judged by another than he himself can judge another. But let us all wait for the judgment of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the only one that has the power both of preferring us in the government of His Church, and of judging us in our conduct there.”

    We agree that the Roman Church is reaping the fruits of her own innovations. Instead of pointlessly fighting against each other, my desire is simply to provide some healthy thinking as to how we may properly solve this crisis. I have been serving at an FSSPX altar for years, and yet have been serving for a year also at the altar of Constantinople, realizing they are the same, though the former is not yet clearly seeing why, even if Bishop Fellay told me himself he agrees that both must unite against Rome, and he has been promoting such views directly wherever FSSPX operates in Eastern Europe, so, please understand, it is only my desire for the restoration of our beloved Western Church that drives me to write what I am writing. I was just like you, many years ago, even though I already knew of the many innovations and violations of canons by Rome, for I converted alone through the Church Fathers and Councils, and thus headed straight to the FSSPX, and occasionally CMRI, because of my understanding of what I thought was their Western expression of the Orthodoxy I learned from the Fathers for over a decade.

    I only wish you would see that we are all in this together, and should do and sacrifice all for Truth, God, no matter the price, looking at all of our options based on the facts. I will keep you also in my prayers. May you be Blessed By Christ, Our Lord.

    -AOC

22. Semper Fidelis,

    “Woe, when men speak well of you.” (John 6:26)
    Do you not know that “The Blood of the martyrs is the seed of The Church”? I would prefer to live like a Christian in North Korea than as a semi-pagan in degenerate Italy. Christians survived all of the persecutions precisely because they opposed any alteration to their Faith, and did not surrender to the world and its comforts. What did the West do, if not embrace the world of Satan, its glories and his pomp? It is precisely the opposite:
    “Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?” (Matthew 10:16-25)

    This actually is a sign against you, for the West has fled the Sign Of Contradiction, and thus it stands, in fact, condemned by Christ, having preferred and embraced the comforts of the world. Your arguments are those of the infidel rationalists of old pagan Rome, who assured Christians of their inferiority and error because of their suffering and death, claiming their God was evil and wicked for permitting such horror, just as those of new pagan Rome said the same of the 1755 Lisbon Earthquake, when it was all quite the opposite: a wake up call From and In His Mercy to forsake the false comforts of the world, which are given by its prince and god, Satan. Thus is it that Christians are perpetually martyred, and those who claim to be Christians, yet are not, rather enjoy the comforts of this world, have been rewarded by the lord of worldly princes and powers for having delivered themselves to him, even as it is very clear today, for only the most wicked are in power and enjoy worldly pleasures, in particular apostate Rome. This apostasy of Rome and its modernization and mundanization did not happen in the East, where blood was shed to prevent any alterations, only in the West, where cultural marxism, the only pagan, chiliastic hedonism was embraced with open arms. I weep for my fatherland, and yet I seek after and in The Sun Of Righteousness, who Rises from The East To Illumine the West, where the light dies. The Magi went one way to Our Lord, and returned by another.

    I really wish the West would have the courage to endure millions of martyrs again, yet this seems impossible for the utterly corrupt and paganized pseudo-christians found throughout it. This I say with shame, as a Westerner, who can only find comfort in Christ and the Fathers through Him, venerating those many brave ones who have given their lives for Christ without end.

    Instead of accusing each other, we should pray for restoration and union, in sorrow and tears, in perpetual contrition for our sins and those of our fathers, who have allowed such complete apostasy to occur in their hearts and the entire West. I hope you can agree with me on this, as Christ, Our Lord, Himself Has Commanded us this in His Revelation two millennia ago, and even in days before, since the very Lapse of Adam. May we find His Mercy, despite our sins, unworthy as we are.

    -AOC

23. Spot on, Louie. Most priests are very poorly formed and do they intend to do what the Church desires? One can doubt. By the grace of God I am now a traditionalist and will never again be soiled by the NO mass. To think that at one time I attended. It was mostly a song-fest , lovie -dovie gathering. Just thinking about it makes me want to puke. I will never be able to thank God and Our Lady from rescuing me from its poisonous grasp.

24. 2Vermont,

    At least, I can say I am Orthodox. You oppose Orthodoxy, so you confess your own adherence to Heterodoxy. And yet you claim I am a schismatic, while it is Rome itself, your own heterodox patriarch, who thinks that of you, as well. Ironic, is it not?

    The only difference between your view and mine is the date of Rome’s schism against Christ’s Catholic Church. I acknowledge it began as soon as Rome started innovating and daring to alter the doctrines and canons, attempting to falsify Faith, while you believe it was approximately fifty years ago, after Rome had already altered and innovated in all possible aspects, and Traditionalists fight against each other to set the right date for Rome’s schism, some beginning with Pius IX or earlier, and others with Paul VI or later, even Francis I. An honest Traditionalist would reject all innovations as Modernism, so why would you object to all four Ancient Patriarchs independently and unanimously considering Rome to have deviated from The Faith, considering all evidence?

    Rome has always been the cause of division, as you can see, for they alone claim to alter all things and yet remain immutable, infallibly, absurdly. Welcome to the club: Rome considers us both schismatics, yet I, at least, do not seek to remain in Heterodoxy, but prefer Orthodoxy, which assures me that I am no schismatic, for only the heterodox can be, and yet I am sure that you would seek the same for yourself.

    We should seek to stop Rome’s deviations together, as even Bishop Fellay admits, agreeing on holding fast to Tradition, ideally in a council. For this end I pray, and so will I also pray for you.

    -AOC

25. No AOC, you are a schismatic. You do not believe in the supremacy of the papacy. I do. I just don’t believe that heretics can hold the office of the papacy. Two very different beliefs.

    Now that I know for sure that you are a schismatic, I am not interested in communicating with you. It is interesting though that the rabid anti-sedes seem to be just fine with your presence here. I wonder whether Louie will curb your soapbox. Given you aren’t even Catholic, IMO your posts shouldn’t even be allowed.

26. WHOA!!!
    “You see why Richard Ibranyi at least is honest enough to postulate a Vacancy of the Roman See going back to a millennium ago, if we were to apply the principles of modern Sedevacantism, which uphold the errors of Papalism, as Fr. Hesse rightly called this heresy. ”

    You quote Ibranyi but do you know just who he is? Ido. Decades ago after Bro Natali died, I was asked to find out who he was at the Most Holy Family Monastery in Berlin NJ . John Vennari was a Brother there and I knew him well .He gave seminars with some great people as speakers . John took in a nineteen year old ,Michael Dimond at the time, Then Dimond took in his own brother after John left. John was running the place on his own and did not look well. I recommended he go home and stay with hid mother for the sake of his health.
    The Dimond brothers got scammed into taking on ibranyi who told me he was Jewish and commented they make a lot of money here with their seminars. John was offered a job by Fr Gruner as Editor for CFN. John never went back to the irregular monastery . i am assuming Ibranyi ran across the river to Eddystone PA and became a Catholic through Fr Hewko SSPX ( now of the Resistance) like Michael Dimond and his younger brother did in the past. then the five Oblates of St Jude ( five lay people who took the Dimonds to court ) won the Deed for the monastery property themselves while Ibranyi and the Dimonds were awarded the 80+ acres a former lay parishioner left to the Monastery.
    The Monastery was an irregular church building. The original Brothers were men who were not accepted in any other Orders for health or age reasons. Traveling priests who were not under any Bishop would come and say the TLM there.
    So here you quote a Jewish man who became a Catholic invalid monk at the monastery and Catholic through SSPX with no real Catholic education Theological or otherwise.
    Like he said to me ,”They make good money here with these seminars.” Of course they did ! There was nothing anywhere else for the Baysiders and other people who wanted the TLM.
    I was a close friend to one of the Oblates so I went there for the seminars several times. John used to put on excellent seminars with some great speakers……as for the rest of them. They are FAKES.

27. Gotcha.

28. Right now I can say we are in Limbo on earth, hopefully our Purgatory . We went to one Orth church to fulfill our Obligation here and prayed hard for a decent priest. After the Liturgy he commented that the Mother of God and St Joseph resumed normal marital relations. WRONGO !
    Both the Orthodox and Catholic churches stand firmly that She is the “Ever Virgin Mary” according to all the Early Church Fathers. . Exit stage right.
    I know from a wonderful Orthodox priest that they are accepting not so well educated and homo friendly brainwashed men into some of their churches too.
    No matter what parish you walk into these days , let the donor beware.

29. One minute 2 Vermont.
    The reality is that the Eastern Churches recognized the supremacy of the See o Peter for quite a long time. The title Pontificus Maximus came hundreds of years later. It was the tile given to Caesars. after Constantine when Christianity was made official politically in Rome ,the Bishop of Rome too hence, the title. Still the East considered him the First Among Many . As such he decided the final say in Dogma and Doctrine when the Council Fathers were at odds. Then politics properties and power came into play on both sides . For instance , I think it was at the Fourth Council of Toledo that the Western Bishops decided to change the Filioque BUT Eastern Bishops were not invited. It was changed. Because of the history and scriptural references JP2 decided to change it back to the original.
    I do not throw around the charge of schismatic lightly because the Popes and Patriarchs tried four times after the Fourth Crusade to reunte the Church. The Eastern Church laity absolutely could not get over the slaughter of their clergy and laity during the Fourth Crusade to accept it.
    That was the continuation of what we call the Great Schism.
    BOTH sides hold responsibility for the continuing division. To blame it on not accepting Papal Supremacy is way too superficial. read about the Papal Legate Humbert and just how the excommunication of the Patriarch of Constantinople came about.

30. “The takeaway from all of this for me was simple; these people don’t really believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Most Holy Eucharist.”

    Absolutely CORRECT ! we lost our Byzantine Catholic mission church because we wrote to the Bishop to complain that the pastor gave an easter Homily on this very thing. He denied the Real Presence.
    The Bishop came to our parish and told us off from the pulpit for questioning the Faith of a priest. Then he cancelled his bi ritual contract with the Diocese after the priest stole all the rectory furniture ,cleaned out all the parish bank accounts and made himself known as a cross dresser at the main Church parish dinners. I hope the Korean Evangelicals who now own the church
    we built with our original pastor, are enjoying it.

31. I am from the NO Archdiocese of Hartford. Our pastor announced with glee during the flu outbreak that we had to receive in the hand. A friend of mine wrote the “Archbishop” and the Pastor had to relent. I think that was the straw that broke my back. I stopped generally going to the NO and made the switch to the Indult. Now I will have nothing to do with the NO conciliar church.

32. Austrian, same old lies, same old vitriol, same old backwards thinking.

    Constantine’s Mother was a Saint, not he. He raised two antichrist heretical sons who persecuted the Roman Catholic Church for decades.

    All of that and no denial of your capital heresy of having sacrilegious marriages up to three times and for contracepting yourselves out of existence? That says all I need to hear. Thank you.

33. Let’s all of us, Roman Trads, stop our bickering and join in a United Crusade against AOC and the arrogant and heretical ‘Orthodox’. They need another 1204 style vanquishing from our board.

34. Sweep.

    The filioque is Catholic doctrine. If you want to go back into the loving arms of the Orthodox be my guest. Sick and tired of Byzantine Catholics playing that side of the fence against us. The Re-Orthodoxation of the Byzantine Catholics is wrong and it is a scandal of Vatican II. You can it “de-latinization” but it is a practical denial of history just like the modernist revisionists.

35. That was wrong Sweep. That Bishop will be providing another paving stone in hell if he does not repent. That is the inherent problem with bi-ritual modernists.

36. AOC, frankly we don’t care about Venetians sacking Constantinople 800 years ago. Again, it was 800 years ago. Just like you never thank us for saving your arse 1000 years ago. We stood as the vanguard against Islamic expansionism throughout the Middle Ages. It’s not our fault the Eastern Churches were so riddled with heresy at the time of Mohammad that they couldn’t put up a fight. It’s not our fault the Orthodox preferred schism to national survival and where thereby conquered for 500 years. It’s not our fault the Byzantine court was so corrupt and dysfunctional. Thanks to the collapse of your empire, we had to fight the Muslims on our own soil and push the bastards back into Orthodox lands. Thanks to the West, we finally crushed the Ottoman Empire, yet we never get thanks for that either.

37. I am qualified Tom. Two things about the “Orthodox”….they never forget and they never forgive. They are always caught up in their petty, xenophobic grievances and unforgiveness. They talk about 1204 like it was yesterday, and collectively blame ALL CATHOLICS instead of a long dead Ventian Empire. What morons. I am so sick of their attitude.

    We don’t sit around talking about the 100 Years War, because, for goodness sake, we have moved on. We forgive and forget. They don’t! The Orthodox Serbs in the 1990s were massacring people over grievances stemming from a battle in the freaking 1300’s. This is classic, schismatic, non sanctifying grace Orthodox behaviour. They are petty, mean, vindictive churches. And yes, they are total heretics. The Russians and their own history of brutality are more evidence of that attitude. AOC, come on here and insult my faith and culture and I am loaded for bear. How dare you. What bad manners.

38. Semper ,
    The Filioque’s history is exactly as i stated somewhere here. The original debate was between the Eastern and Western Bishops. To their credit the East argued to uphold Scripture. Look it up because the Scriptures are Doctrinal and Dogmatic. Their point was that both St John and Jesus Himself indicated that the Holy Ghost emanated from the Father. Even Jesus told His Apostles and Disciples that He must go to the Father as He Ascended so that He may send them the Holy Ghost.
    It is Dogmatic but was changed and changed back again by JP2.
    The alleged Traditional argument did not hold water .
    extra Ecclesia nulla salus is also dogma. but poor Fr Feeney was unscrupulously excommunicated allegedly for upholding it.
    What so called Traditionalists do not know is that he always added ,”Of course we believe in God’s Mercy”.
    Before he died my dear friend Mother Teresa (RIP)and several nuns went to the Vatican to see if he was truly excommunicated. They found it was not approved there and was just a ploy of Cdl Cushing on the behest of his friend Joe Kennedy who was asked by his Jewish business partners to stop this priest who was converting
    their sons at Harvard Square. So the sisters contacted the Local Ordinary who visited the priest and assured him he was never excommunicated before he died.
    Prelates play loose with Doctrine and Dogma as we are seeing in the current Vatican climate. But believe me when I say they always have since the latter part of the First Millenium when greed and politics suited their purpose. There is nothing new under the sun.

39. If I may add to this a bit and it is on topic, but one of the other reasons I came to see that the NO really doesn’t believe any more in the Real Presence (and this is a small, but telling token methinks) was the practice in my former parish (on the NE side of Grand Rapids, MI named for a certain farmer saint) of reading announcements immediately after communion but before the “final blessing.”

40. Absolutely TRUE ……..About one year later I was taking a nap and dreamed I saw a grey dismembered arm throwing jewels up in the air and I saw them all drop on the ground. I was puzzling over the dream and my phone rang. It was an Catholic Archamandrite priest friend of another Catholic Rite calling to ask me if I heard that Bishop had died around ten AM in a bad car accident. Then it made sense since he paraded in our church with his bejeweled crown and vestments and before we left we all had to kiss his jeweled ring.
    None of the finery wealth or pomp means anything .
    The Faith you hold in your heart for Jesus and Our Lady Mother is what we will all be judged on.
    I don’t condemn anyone in these times for how they practice their Faith , I only know how we do in our search for a
    Liturgy that gives reverent Honor and Glory to God.If you have to st home read the Scriptures and pray the Rosary so be it.
    i have witnessed far too many abuses ,including the Our Father sung to the melody of Bingo is his name o !
    My conscience says I cannot be part of this unholy place.

41. Here is the statement from the Grand Rapids Diocese website about receiving communion if ill:
    “Roman Catholics believe that both the body and the blood of Christ are contained in the Holy Eucharist under the form of the consecrated host. But the Church encourages reception of the cup at Mass as a fuller expression of the Last Supper and Christ’s precious blood poured out for us in sacrifice. If you are feeling sick, please receive Holy Communion in the hand, rather on the tongue, and refrain from receiving Communion from the cup. It is not appropriate to dip your host into the cup, as this is irreverent and can contaminate the cup.”

    I’d be interested to know what some of you think of this statement. Thanks.

42. But we should embrace sodomy as a legitimate form of love even though nature and God is telling us every filthy std is being spread through illicit sexual acts.
    Are there any clerics preaching against that these days?

43. Now that’s just heresy…..thanks for that Sweep.

    So when Our Lord, breathed on the disciples and said “Receive the Holy Spirit”. He was lying? Because afteral all good ‘Orthodox’ know that the Spirit cannot possibly proceed from the Son!

    Stay away from them before you get any more hare-brained ideas, please.

44. Sad. Very sad indeed.

45. The Early Church Fathers tell us St John lived to be quite old in Ephesus and the Christians carried him around on a litter. He was so weak he could only Bless the people and say, “Little children love one another.” Arrogance places a barrier to love.

46. My few cents worth on the eastern Orthodox brouhaha…

    The office of the Primary Apostle – Peter – extends all the way back to the Davidic Kingdom of Israel. Of whom, Jesus Christ, our Lord, and successor of David, the true and final King of Israel granted the keys of His household to Peter, just as the Kings of Israel had a prime administrator over their entire household in their absence.

    The Prophet Isaiah testifies to this function, and the man who had this authority acted in place of the King, to open and shut the windows, doors and gates of the King’s household by possession of the keys.

    Only one guy had this function. Isaiah prophesied that this authority would pass on to another due to the failings and sins of the authority of his day. A type and dual prophecy that would indicate the passing of the Old to the New Covenant. Just as the 12 foundations of Israel went from the tribes after the sons of Jacob to the 12 Apostles. So too the keys of the King’s household were granted to Peter, and passed on to the successors of Peter. So too did the Seat of Moses succeeded by the High Priests of the Temple of Jerusalem pass on to the Chair of Peter.

    And we all can recall what happened to those who challenged Moses’ authority in the Desert, don’t we?

    God works with hierarchies. It’s top down. Not some friggin committee, though those are plenty useful too, which is why we have Councils. When the shots need to be fired, authority and responsibility fall to one guy.

    The more interesting question that the Eastern orthodox need to answer is the following… If the hierarchy of Peter is irrelevant, and everyone gets a share in the power over Christ’s Church… Then the next logical thing to ask would be…

    What then is the need for some other hierarchy under a bishop / patriarch / metropolitan? Why the hell do we need them? Why can’t we all individually set up our own structures and call each other equals and ‘firsts’?

    And from there we arrive at Protestantism.

    All this adds further to the credibility and insight granted to us by the Holy Theotokos, the Queen of Heaven, ever blessed ever virgin Mary – Our Lady of Fatima.

    Just as she foresaw and revealed to us the many issues the Church would face and the extension of the ‘Errors of Russia’ which weren’t limited to Communism, she took steps to resolve it.

    One poignant one being – The Consecration of Russia – By the Pope – and all the Bishops of the world IN UNION WITH HIM – The Pope.

    The Eastern Orthodox do not qualify. And God’s Holy Beloved Ambassador, didn’t care to visit the Patriarchs of either the Greek or Russian Orthodox.

    Some here can cry and moan and whine about how bad the ‘Roman Church’ has gotten. But a few thousand years ago they would be saying the same thing about Jerusalem prior to the destruction of Solomon’s Temple and the subsequent exile.

    Israel had become just as pagan as the old inhabitants they conquered, and it was their ‘wisest’ King who led the charge.

    But Jerusalem and the Jewish faith in Judah didn’t cease to be the true faith, especially when the rest of Israel was in schism under a separate rival monarchy they established for themselves. No different than the schismatic Orthodox.

    Sure God may by His providence allow Russia to grow holier than Rome, just as God could allow the pagan Emperor Cyrus the Great to serve Him and free the captive Jews. Does that mean God approved of the Persian Mazdayasni Zoroastrian faith?

    And let’s recall that Cyrus was a very ecumenical guy who allowed for that ‘Freedom of Religion’ and yet this is the guy whom the Lord God called “His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I hold, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two-leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut.” (Isaiah 45:1)

    So it seems that God, for His purposes, tolerates this stuff too. As much as it is philosophically erroneous to have “freedom of religion” it appears to work in our favour sometimes. There’s a difference between philosophical principles, and the general practical realities of going about that which doesn’t lead to us hating and killing each other. And typically the problem is mainly with the definition of Freedom of Religion according to Americanism, and the freedom to find the true religion and the reasonable toleration of false religions that is the proper understanding of the Church’s Tradition.

    Thus a Pope, or even a Council may prudently disciplinarily bind or loosen how we deal with those outside the Faith without contradicting the primary order of Christ’s to baptise all nations to the one True Faith. The latter part which needs extraordinary emphasis; the kind Vatican II deliberately lacks.

    We are facing a time remarkably similar to Israel/Judah pre-exile. Overrun with foreigners, with widespread apostasy and the worship of other gods and the raising up of altars to them. So too just as Jerusalem was destroyed, we see prophecy indicating the fall of Rome and the potential destruction of the Vatican as well.

    There is nothing new under the sun.

    I’m sticking with the Mother of God, who recognizes the Papacy and placed the recovery of the Church and the world into the hands of that one unifying office.

47. So Johnno, in the meantime where does one go to fulfill their Sunday Obligation IF they live in a Diocese where they do not have a TLM ,SSPX or FSSP or cannot find a NO that is reverent? Foe some elderly folk a three hour journey is out of the question.
    Louie’s post reminds me of the time my cousin’s son was at Villanova. He received Communion and then ran to the bathroom spitting it out while frantically washing out his mouth. He is deathly allergic to peanuts and apparently they decided to change the recipe for the Eucharist.
    He was traumatized physically and spiritually and called his local priest back home i another state asking whether he committed a sin. The priest told him they committed the graver sin. I believe he transferred out the following semester.
    Please do not think this was an extreme case. I have heard many similar instances of alteration in the communion bread.

48. But the issue at hand here is the papacy. You are getting mixed up between the supremacy of the Pope and the primacy of the pope (first among equals) . The Orthodox accept the latter, not the former.

49. https://akacatholic.com/a-word-of-warning-to-commenters/

50. “I do not throw around the charge of schismatic lightly because the Popes and Patriarchs tried four times after the Fourth Crusade to reunite the Church.”

    “Reunite the Church”? Sounds like Vatican II ecclesiology, not Catholic ecclesiology. The Church *is* united. The Orthodox separated from the Catholic Church. They are in schism. What was expected was for them to return to the Catholic Church. It is only since Vatican II that we no longer call them “schismatics”.

    “Because of the history and scriptural references JP2 decided to change it back to the original.”

    You should always hold suspect any change made by JPII. He codified Vatican II theology and ecclesiology into his 1983 Code of Canon Law too.

51. Uggh. Sorry. It is difficult not to respond to others when they do not stay on topic.

52. Good points Johnno. I was thinking of something similar. When Israel split off from Judah, God did not call Judah and Benjamin to begin an ecumenical dialogue as “equals”. He sent his prophets to Israel to warn them to come back unconditionally. They didn’t and the 10 tribes of Israel ended being annihilated.

    In Our Lord’s day, he comes across the Samaritan woman, who can trace her ancestry back to ancient Israelites, and who along with her confreres, worshipped God at their separate Jewish-style temple. Even though the Jews were corrupt and the Sanhedrin would betray Our Lord. Our Lord still told the woman bluntly: “You worship what you do not know, for salvation is from the Jews”. The Orthodox are very much like ancient Israel and they have been chastised in a similar manner.

53. Excellent point.

54. ‘During the consecration… does the priest INTEND…’
    This was exactly the question in my mind that caused me to search for a parish where the priest had such an intention. (I’m unable to drive several hours one way to a Latin Mass.) The priest at my old parish gave a definition of the Mass that never included the word “sacrifice”, although he repeatedly stated his belief in the Real Presence.
    Indeed, how can anyone intend an action they do not believe in or are even aware of?

55. Keeping in mind that I do believe the Eucharist at a Novus Ordo is valid (because if it wasn’t there’d be no reason for you to even entertain going)… I see only two options.

    The first option, #1, is that you stay home and avoid the irreverent masses and beg the Lord for spiritual Communion. And only fulfil the basic obligation of receiving the Holy Eucharist once a year at Easter, in which case I’d schedule my vacation plans around travelling to a far off parish that fits the criteria you want.

    Or, option #2 – you attend the irreverent Mass, clutch your rosary in hand and SUFFER through it while weeping in the back pew. Recalling that the Mass and Holy Sacrifice is eternal and extends back in time to Calvary. Where every manner of jackass was there mocking Christ to His Holy Face.

    The first option is akin to the Disciples fleeing in Gethsemane, where they could not even fulfil our Lord’s criteria to spend one hour awake with Him as He was suffering in agony. And who really could blame them? As we’re all quite ready to flee ourselves.

    The second option is what the Virgin Mary and St. John opted for, standing by Christ all the way, as close as possible as they could get to Him right up to the end and putting up with the insults and violence hurled at Him. So if you’re up for it, then SUFFER with them, which is what I’d personally recommend. And remember every atrocity in detail and burn it into your memory for the benefit of instructing future generations to learn from our times and to document mankind’s utter stupidity.

    Now, as for the case where you know for certain that the dopes are playing around with the recipe, the Sacrament is invalid. Christ isn’t there. So you shouldn’t bother showing up either.

    Someday, they may very well turn most every Novus Ordo into a fake ecumenical get-together without a Eucharist. But until such time I believe the Devil actually prefers to allow Christ to actually be there so as to maximize the damage done by desecrating Him directly.

56. Now serving bread and wine ??

    Amidst this suggested confusion, how then, to become a saint?

    “If you ask me what you are to do in order to be perfect, I say, first, do not lie in bed beyond the time of rising; give your first thoughts to God; make a good visit to the Blessed Sacrament; say the Angelus devoutly; eat and drink to God’s glory; say the Rosary well, be recollected; keep out bad thoughts; make your evening meditation well; examine yourself daily; go to bed in good time, and you are already perfect.”

    John Henry Newman

57. I was told once that they have never found an instance where anyone “caught” any contagious illness from consuming the blood of Christ, yet we heard from the same NO priest who shared that information, that if we are sick we should not receive the Blood of Christ. The contradictions are perplexing.

    Another thought, I have noticed a great many NO priests acting with little to no reverence for the Eucharist during consecration- I cannot decide if they don’t believe, or if they have so much pride and so wholly lack fear of God that they behave that way?

    Can anyone direct me to a source that indicates whether the priests subjective intent during consecration invalidates an otherwise valid consecration. Also, same for ordinations. I mean a priest can participate in a valid consecration while in mortal sin, but its sacrilegious to do so, right? Any sources would be good so I can share it with others.

58. It’s unfortunate that it’s becoming a trend again. The safest option in times of flu would be just not to communicate at all. It’s also the simplest. Maybe it’s because it’s so simple it doesn’t get promoted very often. Then again, peer pressure also plays a role.

59. Also stay home if your sick. Mass is not the only way to sanctify the day

60. What a load of nonsense. Your logic says we should attend Black Masses as long as the Sacrament is real and Jesus is suffering. No Johnno, we are commanded to not worship with those who profess false religion. Period. That goes for Lutherans and Vaticantwoers.

61. Yeah… a Black Mass… because obviously they’re both the same thing… amirite?

    You know what a Black Mass is, Tom? It’s the one where they can’t consecrate anything and therefore have to go steal the Eucharist from a Novus Ordo Mass. So apparently Satanists have more faith in the Novus Ordo Sacrament than Tom A. At least now we know where Tom A would’ve been when the Temple guards came for Christ. Certainly not anywhere in the vicinity. And last time I checked, the Lutherans didn’t have valid Holy Orders and therefore NOTHING happens during their little functions.

    Of course, if the sede hypothesis was true and the Novus Ordo didn’t have valid holy orders, then quite naturally, Tom would be right. But that remains to be demonstrated. But now, we’re getting into the sede matters again, which Louie would prefer for us to remain on topic. So I’ll just stop here.

    Only sweepoutthefilth knows what’s going on in parishes around him/her. So only sweep can decide what to do.

    I will mention that if sweep has a family and children, then this should also be factored into what sweep wants to expose them to, particularly if the children are too young and impressionable.

62. No Johnno, the issue is something you brought up about the sacraments. For sake of argument lets stipulate that the NO eucharist is valid. You said because of validity, we should attend the NO. You insinuated that those who leave their NO parish and find a TLM are like the Apostles who fell asleep and could not keep watch. Your point is that there is some sort of virtue for attending a NO and that you would be like the Holy Mother and St John at the foot of the cross while the guards and the jews insulted Our Lord. My point was that your logic would then justify one going to a Black Mass to be present while Our Lord was ridiculed. No, Holy Mother Church forbids us to worship with those of differing faiths (valid sacraments or not).

63. To TomA and all other spiritually prideful “Catholics” that sin every time they insult Christ and His Church:

    Have you never heard the admonition from Our Lady that says to NEVER criticize or insult a Catholic priest, that their judgement is reserved for God alone? If you were half the Catholic you think you are, you would be praying constantly for all those “sinful” novus ordo Catholics praying at their “abomination” of a mass. And to be clear, the sanctifying grace received from an Ordinary Form mass can be just as powerful as that received from the Extraordinary Form. Not every Ordinary Form mass is the “abomination” you make it out to be (I can’t believe you use this word to describe the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass). It’s also contradictory, as I assume the only mass you’ve ever attended was not just the Extraordinary Form, so you would have had to receive the grace from somewhere to seek out the Old Rite.

    But just to assuage your anguished mind and vitriol toward your fellow Catholics who attend the novus ordo, there are several Holy Masses in my Diocese that are very well done in the new rite. I’m talking YOUNG priests trained in both the Ancient Rite and the New Rite. Ad Orientem. Traditional rubrics. Deacon assisted. Kyrie Eleison. Gloria. Sanctus. Pater Noster. Agnus Dei. Communion rails. Gregorian chant. Traditional priestly vestments. 7-10 MALE Servers trained in the both the Ancient Rite and the New Rite. MC’s. Thurifer. Cassocks and surplices. The lifting of the chasuble during the elevation. Berettas. Chapel veils. Formal dress by the all those assisting. Holy Communion ONLY distributed by a priest or deacon. Holy Communion received while kneeling and on the tongue at the 110 year old communion rail.

    To call these Holy Masses, where large, fervent, holy Catholic families gather to worship The One True God in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar, ABOMINATIONS is so utterly and pathetically devoid of even a modicum of charity it makes me shudder to consider how sad it must make Our Lord and Our Lady.

    I must request you and your cohort that relentlessly complain about everything and judge everything and insult Our Lord in His Mass to cease immediately and begin reparation for this blasphemy. Lent is coming up. It would be a good time to reflect on these things.

    May God have mercy on your soul.

64. The Eastern Rite, as far as I can see, has been, for a far longer period of time, more riddled with heresy because of their practice of non continent married clergy, which has led to a far quicker and greater acceptance of contraception/NFP and divorce and remarriage because of their errors on the meaning of the priesthood and marriage which was prompted by their errors on a continent priesthood.

    As I have said before, one can keep all the appearances of tradition in ones liturgy but if you are not practicing or are in doctrinal errors you will be in heresy. Proper understanding and adherence to Catholic Doctrine is fundamental and comes before the simple practice of an orthodox liturgy, be that Eastern or Western Liturgy. Of course one who has proper Catholic doctrines and practices them will see that it is the Latin Mass that reflects these doctrines and not the NO mess.

65. Great work Semper Fidelis! Well said. Bravo!

66. While on vacation we attended a NO with cousins . Before the priest processed in from the rear of the Church I was praying the rosary. He actually stopped at the end of our pew and looked by others with a face of disdain at my rosary. his homily was off the cuff how one should not pray the rosary when coming to Mass.
    I remembered as a child having a booklet on how to pray the Liturgical Rosary during Mass……..Of course that was pre Vatican 2.
    On another occasion we went to a NO in VA prior to altar girls being officially allowed. The Church was Mass in the round and all the Altar
    servers were girls. I could go on ad infinitum about abuses we endured in the NO but it might be considered off topic. Now I do not want to incite anymore angst or display direspect by walking out in distress. I am finished searching for a reverent NO mass.

67. Prideful? Or beaten down and at wits end after taking the Commandment seriously to keep Holy the Lords Day for the sake of our souls and the souls of our loved ones ?
    Abuse begets abuse whether it is covering up for pederast clerics or turning the Mass into something it was never meant to be.
    Let God be the judge and read Apocalypse 18, and what the saints have said including Our Lady of Good Success, LaSalette ,Bl Emmerick , Julie Jahenney and the part of the Third Secret we have been given.
    Our Blessed Mother had quite a bit to say about Her Son’s Ministers as did St John Chrysostom.

68. Ora, what do you think of Francis?

69. ora–please provide the name and address of your parish. I think some of us would like to move there. Thank you.

70. Off topic apology BUT Louie who can stomach these types of condemnations?
    Ora sound like a priest I recently met. one who ascribes to the thoughts of a Mutter Vogle ( of whom there was no such person) in the alleged “Catholic” Pieta Prayer book.
    The priest along with his bishop slandered a good priest who turned in a pederast priest to the authorities. The Bishop has it on record that no priest’s name should ever be in the press whether he is an acknowledged convicted pederast or not. Any one who disagrees with said Bishop is Prideful .
    Big hint Bishop….when someone is arrested they have given up their right to privacy of their name whether convicted or not.
    http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/crime–law/diocese-palm-beach-loses-fight-toss-priest-defamation-suit/YfUPfwWcP6n1YROakxKVuI/

71. What you are saying Ora is that the essence of the OF is the same as the EF and only the accidentals differ. Thereby it would be logical that there can be all variations of accidental difference within the OF. Some with incensce and some with clowns and puppets. You are missing the point. A reverent beautiful OF is still just that, an OF. An irreverent OF is still an OF. It has nothing to do about the bells and whistles. It is the form and the essence. I too found a very reverent OF parish before I realized that a reverent OF is simply a pig with lipstick. Ora, if I, for a minute, believed that the NO mass was pleasing to God and not a protestant innovation, I would never utter a word against it. But the NO is fruit of the earth and work of human hands. It is man centered. Dressing it up blasphemes the true Holy Sacrifice. Dressing up the NO apes the true Mass. Better it be said the lame way its said in 99% of your Novus Ordo parishes, than aping a real Mass. Also, you chastise me for insulting “priests.” Can you prove to me that the NO sect has a valid priesthood? We only have the word of modernists that the NO Orders are valid. Have you investigated all the changes made to the Ordination Rites in 1968? Especially the Episcopal Rite. It is doubtful there are even any Bishops left in the NO sect. And only very few priests.

72. A better question Dennis is do the sodomites accepted into seminaries have the Proper Intention to receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders?
    This is stressed to children receiving their First Holy Communion so it will be valid.
    Is it stressed to the seminarians?
    Apparently not when you see all the chastity violations being played out in the News even in Vatican City . Read the Rite of Sodomy.

73. Ora, may I respectfully suggest that you review some of Louie’s earlier postings and the comments of the men and women you are criticizing on this site. In doing so you’ll find that while there’s a fair amount of disparity on many of the issues impacting the Church today, you’ll also learn that each commenter is quite knowledgeable on our faith. Some, in fact, would put many of the modern theologians, bishops and priests to shame. The commenters on this site are traditional Catholics because of their love for the Church. Unlike you and many others, they learned what had happened to the Church during the Second Vatican Council and sought out the truth that is only found in the Catholic Church. You are in the dark.

    I would also be confident in saying that every single one of them are as Catholic as you and me––many probably more so. Yes, some of us are Sedevacantists and others are members of SSPX and SSPV Chapels. But all of us are where we are because when the Modernists assumed control of the Catholic Church in Rome during the Second Vatican Council, they set out to diabolically mislead the faithful as to the true teachings of the Church.

    You don’t understand that I’m sure, because you are where many of us were 10 years ago before we started on the spiritual journey that has been imposed upon us by the Modernists. Yes, all of us at one time worshipped at a Novus Ordo Mass in our ignorance, but when we learned we sought the truth.

    You actually come across as a sincere Catholic, but a modern Catholic who is unaware as to what has happened to the Catholic Church. Many of us have close relatives who are as blind to the truth as you are. Unfortunately, that’s where many will also remain, and, perhaps, you will as well. But rather than criticize the commenters on this incredible instructive site, may I respectfully suggest that you engage in the painful research that has been carefully shielded from modern Catholics like yourself. I’m sure Louie might even have a posting somewhere on this site that would give you some good early direction. If after learning what these men and women know you would still be interested in taking on some of these commenters, I’m sure they’d be happy to engage. At least then it would be a fair fight.

74. Ora, I fear you are conflating two distinct things. Making an observation of the exterior actions of a person does not necessarily mean you are judging their intention or the state of their soul. Judging a person is to come to a conclusion about the culpability of another. However making observations is important, the impressions a person gives by their actions can cause harm, that’s why scandal is a sin. For example, if I observe a priest is preaching things contrary to the faith, I must avoid him if possible so I am not misled listening to him on other topics. It doesn’t mean I judge his intent, I consider most priests severely misguided in their faith, but it doesn’t mean they are TRYING to teach contrary to the faith, and I don’t assume that they are.I understand your emotional response to what you perceive as an offense to the Church, but are you perhaps judging individuals who are posting comments here.

75. I couldn’t agree with you more. This blog post, the comments that follow, and the previous posts and comments are collectively a condemnation of every single Pope, Cardinal, Bishop, and 99.99% of priests – even the most conservative ones, laity, and even Masses and other Sacraments themselves since Vatican II. This leaves…well, nothing left of the Catholic Church, at least in the minds of these folks. I’ve yet to understand why this enterprise exists. If literally everyone has apostasized, there is no more Church…which means we were mistaken about the Faith and should choose a new one… in which case, why put all this effort into complaining about a defunct religion? Or, possibly, the 20 people here are all that’s left, in which case they should probably put their money where their mouths are and elect a Pope…or perhaps follow the lunatic Pope Michael, who did exactly this with the aid of a parental conclave several years ago.

    I think you should continue to support your parish and the undoubtedly valid Masses and consecrations taking place there daily.

76. “And yet, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?” (Luke 18;8)

77. Blunder, can you support your claim that NO sacraments are valid using pre V2 sources?

78. @Tom A

    I’m guessing your about to break out the anathemas. There’s also one about anonymously published “books on sacred matters”, so I hope you don’t own a copy and have not read that recent Pope Francis hit piece.

    Everything written by saints and councils prior to 1962 is not infallible – in fact, very little of it is. Geocentrism is a great example. Declared by many in authority, but never taught infallibly, and totally wrong.

    Piling on ambiguous quotes from apparitions, random quotes from obscure saints, and cherry-picked lines from the Bible is sola scriptura-plusquam-whatever-agrees-with-what-I’m-arguing, plain and simple. Not Catholic.

    More to the point of this article, you can wade through all of those old writings and still not find me an explanation for why or how Orthodox sacraments are recognized by the Catholic Chirch as valid. If that’s too fuzzy, Eastern Rite (and other Rites in union with Rome) sacraments which have the same visible elements as Orthodox sacraments are 100% valid too. So if y’all are going to insist that the Latin Mass is the only valid one and that the Caholic Church does not have the right to develop, you’re excommunicating an awful lot of people. I don’t think you’re correct in that.

    And I have never seen an argument from any Catholic authority that the consecrated matter has disinfectant properties. If you want to be technical, germs are probably spread by saliva contact with the priest’s hands or shared cup, not the Sacred Species anyway. The Priest and Bishop were rather accommodating viz. the author’s unnecessarily picking a fight about this, and I’ll wager the octogenarians in the congregation appreciated that he was receiving last during flu season.

79. Well blunder, seeing how you could not cite a pre v2 source for NO validity, I will assume you couldn’t find one. Don’t bother trying, you wont find one. I tried. Eastern Rites (schismatics also) were always recognized by Rome (pre v2 also) because the form, matter, and intent did not change since the schism. Anglican Rites were found to be null because form and intent changed significantly since they went into schism. For the same reasons that Pope Leo XIII found Anglican orders to be invalid, the same could easily be said that NO orders are invalid. Of course this would take a real Pope to declare it so, but in the meantime it is prudent that informed Catholics avoid NO sacraments due to doubt.

80. If you mean something that says “this style of Mass that will be developed in the mid-20th century is a-ok” then of course not. Neither is there prophetic writing from before the Tridentine Mass was developed over many centuries that said it would be OK. Denying the validity of the current Mass and the Church’s ability to evolve its practices based upon lay interpretation of 2,000 years of sometimes contradictory declarations is pretty serious, and, as Ora et Labora said, “spiritually prideful”. Again, if there is no visible Church left, no leadership, and no valid Sacraments, as many Trads seem to assert, Catholicism has died and we were all wrong. Do you really believe that?

81. Blunder, the doubt arises because the “development” you mention was not limited to “style.” The NO and the Ordination Rites of Paul VI have changed the “essence” of and meaning of the sacraments. Oh how I wish this was only a matter of aesthetics and style. You are not going to believe me until you examine it for yourself with an open mind. I hope you take the time to learn your faith and investigate the reasons and personalities behind the revolutionary changes in the 1960s.

82. There were many responses to my initial comment and, quite frankly, I don’t have the time to respond to everyone individually, so this is an attempt to hit all salient points brought up by the very thoughtful responses previously.

    I’m in the Diocese of KC-St. Joseph, where they crucified Bishop Robert Finn for his orthodoxy, which is really what his situation boiled down to. He is an excellent example of how a NO Bishop can favor the TLM and still bring Tradition back into the Church. (Which is really what we all should be aiming for). I attend both the TLM and NO Mass, generally 2x’s a week at each type. TLM at an Institute Oratory and NO Mass at Our Lady of Good Counsel Parish, which is also the Diocesan Shrine to Divine Mercy and St. Faustina. The NO Mass there has such a sense of the sacerdotal and sacrificial, (in which many a devout priestly vocation has emerged) that it is sometimes breathtaking to see. Yes, the NO form has endured many liturgical abuses throughout the universal Church, but to denigrate the obvious graces that emanate from such a Holy place as OLGC (by calling ALL NO Masses an “abomination”) is disconcerting.

    So my question is this… even though I favor the TLM, why is it that a parish that has an extremely reverent, orthodox and Holy Mass in the new rite can produce so many holy vocations? (Where the priests say Holy Mass in both rites) So many home school families? So many well-catechized and solid families dedicated to Christ and His Church? So many graces? So much so that Bishop Finn called this particular parish “the crown-jewel of the Diocese”? If the NO Mass is truly an abomination, how can this be?

    Could it possibly be that St. Louis Marie de Montfort’s prophecy that the worse persecution the Church will see in the latter days will come from It’s own children? It’s own unfaithful children? In my opinion, these are not just the poorly catechized libertine Catholics… the Church’s persecutors can also be extremely well catechized traditional Catholics that have been blinded by their own spiritual pride.

    And why is it (if the NO rite is truly an abomination in God’s eyes), that myself and other Catholics have experienced supernatural consolations at holy parishes like OLGC? What if the priestly vocations that are produced from this NO parish are meant to bring BACK the beautiful and wonderful traditions of old that have been sacrificed at the altar of vatican II? After all, this is what Bishop Finn was doing when he was the ordinary of the Diocese. And it was bearing much fruit, which is why the devil crucified him… but we have to keep trying! The salvation of souls are at stake! Christ came for the sick, not the healthy. NO Catholics have souls to save too.

    All I’m saying is that as Catholics we should be supporting one another, loving one another and helping each other get to Heaven. Yes, some of us have been given a great gift and understanding of Faith. But let’s use that to help others, not tear them down.

83. There were many responses to my initial comment and, quite frankly, I don’t have the time to respond to everyone individually, so this is an attempt to hit all salient points brought up by the very thoughtful responses previously.

    I’m in the Diocese of KC-St. Joseph, where they crucified Bishop Robert Finn for his orthodoxy, which is really what his situation boiled down to. He is an excellent example of how a NO Bishop can favor the TLM and still bring Tradition back into the Church. (Which is really what we all should be aiming for). I attend both the TLM and NO Mass, generally 2x’s a week at each type. TLM at an Institute Oratory and NO Mass at Our Lady of Good Counsel Parish, which is also the Diocesan Shrine to Divine Mercy and St. Faustina. The NO Mass there has such a sense of the sacerdotal and sacrificial, (in which many a devout priestly vocation has emerged) that it is sometimes breathtaking to see. Yes, the NO form has endured many liturgical abuses throughout the universal Church, but to denigrate the obvious graces that emanate from such a Holy place as OLGC (by calling ALL NO Masses an “abomination”) is disconcerting.

    So my question is this… even though I favor the TLM, why is it that a parish that has an extremely reverent, orthodox and Holy Mass in the new rite can produce so many holy vocations? (Where the priests say Holy Mass in both rites) So many home school families? So many well-catechized and solid families dedicated to Christ and His Church? So many graces? So much so that Bishop Finn called this particular parish “the crown-jewel of the Diocese”? If the NO Mass is truly an abomination, how can this be?

    Could it possibly be that St. Louis Marie de Montfort’s prophecy that the worse persecution the Church will see in the latter days will come from It’s own children? It’s own unfaithful children? In my opinion, these are not just the poorly catechized libertine Catholics… the Church’s persecutors can also be extremely well catechized traditional Catholics that have been blinded by their own spiritual pride.

    And why is it (if the NO rite is truly an abomination in God’s eyes), that myself and other Catholics have experienced supernatural consolations at holy parishes like OLGC? What if the priestly vocations that are produced from this NO parish are meant to bring BACK the beautiful and wonderful traditions of old that have been sacrificed at the altar of vatican II? After all, this is what Bishop Finn was doing when he was the ordinary of the Diocese. And it was bearing much fruit, which is why the devil crucified him… but we have to keep trying! The salvation of souls are at stake! Christ came for the sick, not the healthy. NO Catholics have souls to save too.

    All I’m saying is that as Catholics we should be supporting one another, loving one another and helping each other get to Heaven. Yes, some of us have been given a great gift and understanding of Faith. But let’s use that to help others, not tear them down.

84. FALSE. You and everyone you love are going to hell. HERETIC. Because St. Obscura and a vague, possibly unapproved Marian apparition agree with me.

    Just kidding, you’re 100% right and I sincerely hope your post made at least one person on here rethink their role as self-appointed Grand Internet Inquisitor.

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