Let’s take a timeout from way more important things to talk about the Humble Slapper incident that took place in St. Peter’s Square on New Year’s Eve. The video (in the unlikely event you’ve missed it) is provided below.
Before taking a look at it, however, I’d like to set the record straight as to what happened, beginning with what didn’t happen. According to Vatican News:
As he greeted the faithful, a woman tugged his arm, causing a shooting pain to which the Pope reacted with an impatient gesture to free himself from her grip.
That out of the way, here’s what really happened:
An Asian woman took hold of Jorge’s hand and pulled him toward herself, catching him by surprise. After taking a couple of steps in her direction, the two came face-to-face. The woman wouldn’t let go of his hand (his fingers to be exact) as she made some sort of impassioned plea. Evidently, she is not – as some have reported – an overzealous “fan,” in fact, all indications suggest just the opposite.
As these events began to unfold, a member of Jorge’s security team came forward and laid hold of the woman’s other arm, apparently shouting “Hey!” Jorge then slapped the woman’s hand, twice, and pulled away.
Now, go ahead and watch the video again.
As one can plainly see, Jorge does not appear to be spontaneously reacting to a “shooting pain.” That retelling of the incident was cooked up by his overworked PR team, but the spin job wasn’t complete just yet.
In yesterday’s sermon, the Humble Slapper, reading from a prepared text, condemned… get this… violence against women! These people really are without shame! Jorge said:
Women are sources of life. Yet they are continually insulted, beaten, raped and forced to prostitute themselves.
Yes, women are sometimes victimized in such ways, and it’s terrible when they are. But are they continually beaten, raped and forced to prostitute themselves? Clearly, that’s an absurd exaggeration.
I suspect, however, that there’s more to it than that; rather, it’s a calculated attempt on the part of Jorge and his handlers to make his decision – and let’s be clear, it was a conscious decision – to slap that Asian woman’s hand look even more minor than it really is by comparison.
I mean, hey, if women are continually being beaten and raped, a couple of slaps on the hand just aren’t that big a deal, are they?
All of that said, most of the commentary that I’ve encountered concerning this incident amount to overreactions, in one direction or the other.
First, there are Jorge’s defenders, who insist that he did nothing wrong; some even implying that he was practicing self-defense or delivering a well-deserved dose of retributive justice. For example, conservative Catholic blogger Matt Walsh tweeted:
If the slap was “violence against women” then the woman’s initial grab was violence against the elderly … Today I learned that if a woman grabs an old man by the wrist and yanks him around and then gets her hand lightly slapped, she’s the victim and the old man is a violent abuser. 2020 is off to a good start.
For the Matt Walsh types out there, I have a question:
What would it take for you to feel justified in slapping a woman’s hand that way?
If you can honestly say that your own personal threshold for slapping a woman was crossed by what you saw, then I’m thankful that you’re not married to one of my daughters, and you should be too, in fact, even more so.
While I’d stop sort of categorizing the hand slapping incident as an act of “violence against women,” neither was it a case of some a poor old man being “yanked around.”
Call it what you want, but something ugly happened. What it revealed (yet again) is that Jorge the Humble is a wholesale fabrication, likely created by the same diabolical agents that labored to place him on the balcony at St. Peters back on 13 March 2013.
On the other side of the spectrum, where the majority seem to reside, are those who are reacting as if this is one of the most egregious and embarrassing things Jorge has done since he assumed the stage name “Francis.”
I got news for you people; it’s not even in the top 20!
If only this much outrage was engendered when he accused Our Lady of being tempted to call God a liar, or when he claimed that the Divine Law is too difficult for some people to keep (which necessarily implies that God is unjust), or when he even went so far as to claim that God wills that we should occasionally break the Sixth Commandment, and on and on the blasphemies and heresies go.
So, why are so many given to selective, disproportionate outrage?
Thanks to the present crisis – that is, the one born at Vatican Council II – many a sincere self-identified Catholic has grown numb to the magnificent affronts that have been hurled at Our Lord and Our Lady over the past six decades. We have arrived at the point where many no longer have a sense for what blasphemy and heresy is, much less how offensive it is.
Even so, we largely still have that basic human instinct, imparted to each and every man by way of the Natural Law, that tells us right from wrong.
What Jorge did was just plain wrong and most of us know it.
Sure, some commentators, like Walsh, are moved to downplay what Bergoglio did, if for no other reason than to score a few points against liberal hypocrites. Still, the majority of us are aware that not even a grumpy old man whose arm has been “tugged” (as Vatican News describes it) has the right to treat a woman that way.
In other words, it seems that most of us still remain sensitive to certain evils, recognizing them for what they are when we see them; e.g., an animal being abused by a human, a child being exploited by an adult, or a woman being slapped by a man.
That’s the good news.
The bad news is that far too few among us are nearly as sensitive to those acts of evil – like blasphemy and heresy – that infringe upon the Sovereign Rights of Christ the King and Our Lady, the Queen Mother. Unfortunately, this isn’t going to change until such time as we are given, by the grace of God, a true Holy Father.
If other details surround thing story are true, this event is even jucier! The kind of poetic themes one finds in literature, except God writes His stories on World History.
From what certain sources have said, the woman is Chinese, and was apparently trying to get the Pope’s attention so that she could make a plea on behalf of the Chinese Catholics under persecution, a group that Jorge and McCarrick betrayed in their secret deal with the Chinese government in exchange for… God only knows what, considering it seems the Vatican just handed the Chinese Communists everything and got nothing in return, though I believe it’s pretty obvious that there’s only one thing McCarrick was ever good at besides being a rapist sodomite, and that’s fundraising, and frankly there are many turning towards China for loans, and we all know the present-day Vatican is having money-troubles and banking scandals.
It would not surprise me if Jorge sold out the Chinese Catholics for his 20 pieces of silver… So this woman tried to get his attention, first making the sign of the cross, and believing that just as the woman grabbed the hem of Christ that surely the ‘Holy Father’ she is told Jorge is, would hopefully listen.
Instead Jorge apparently called her a ‘bitch’ and told her to get her hands off of him.
That kind of says it all, doesn’t it?
I wouldn’t get bent out of shape over any ‘assault’ accusations being raised from this though no doubt a certain segment of people would be calling for a crucifixion and impeachment and removal from office if it was some other guy who name begins with ‘T’ and is followed by his ‘rump’, and neither does the woman seem too concerned that he slapped her wrist instead continuing to call out to him…
Apparently it went (according to someone’s translation) –
“Hold! Hold! Look for the Chinese village! They are losing the faith!”
“wait!, wait! Take care of the Chinese people They are losing faith!.”
To which Jorge apparently replied with –
“Bitch! Hand! Hand!”
That’s the real scandal here – how it so perfectly illustrates what Jorge has done to the Chinese faithful.
As for the question of “So, why are so many given to selective, disproportionate outrage?”
It’s because it’s easy to hop on the bandwagon with many on it, than the wagon with few. Many strategize their outrage where it will be safest to do so at little cost. In this case where a rash violent action is aimed at a woman. The incident strikes at both sides of the aisle as crass, whether for just being uncivil, or in the leftist playbook calls for blood atonement on the altar of social justice, where the white patriarchal outdated-religion man is harming a woman of colour.
This they calculate will be safest to protest rather than any of the heresy Jorge has pushed.
Nonetheless, I have no problem letting Jorge get whatever comes to him as a result of this. And it does go on to add fuel to the fire of certain rumours about him possessing a great temper and a horrid tongue behind closed doors. Not that I’m one to judge as I certainly am guilty of it at times as well, but I don’t have en entire PR industry and army of followers willing to fall on their swords for me in the mistaken belief that by making every excuse for me they are somehow protecting the Church by covering up the public sins of a man whose claim to the Papacy, or even the Catholic faith at all, is in grave doubt.
To me it looks like she pulled his arm and hand and it hurt him, his reaction is fast, and to me it looks like a pain reflex. When in pain we react. Believe me, I can’t stand the guy, but I agree with you Louie, there are a number of far worse things he’s responsible for. He’s laying waste to Catholicism and Christianity. Not to mention the West.
What nobody has mentioned yet is this. If you or I were in that position, and let’s say we were hurt inadvertently, we responded by slapping someone, we would want to make a repair. I would not walk away from that encounter, realizing the woman is just either enthusiastic or desperate. He is angry and stays that way. He walks away with that same prune face he usually saves for President Trump or faithful Catholics, you know, people he can’t stand. THAT’S not merciful, but shows his disposition more than the slap. That video of him pulling away his hand when the faithful were trying to kiss his ring shows his level of cruelty. He smiles like a Cheshire cat in that horrible display. He’s delighted. Benedict XVI was pulled to the ground by a lady at about 80. He smiled and continued on to say Mass.
Dear Evangeline,
The only, “mass”, that Josef Ratzinger ever prayed, is a false rite, of a false mass, of the false church of Antichrist, which was conceived in the mind of Ratzinger’s master, with him as his slave, the Prince of this world, Lucifer. Satan, as prophesied in 2 Thess 2 by the Apostle Paul, would be allowed the full use of his power and lying wonders, evidencing his preternatural gifts, none of which were lost in The Fall from grace, to bring forth the, “son of perdition”, as the, “man of sin”, the very person of Antichrist. Amen. This would occur simultaneously with the true Vicar of Christ being, “taken out of the way”, as prophesied again by the Apostle in 2 Thess 2. Apostolic Succession has now been lost, deFide as per, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, and as thus, Blessed Peter in his Successors, has been, “taken out of the way”. Amen. Deny this prophetic reality as it is, as it has now been made objectively manifest, while at once then knowing that it is utterly impossible, and this to be known with apodictic certitude, that Josef Ratzinger could actually be a Pope of the Church established by the Son of God, and you deny Him, as you deny the Authoritative Teaching and Governance of His Church, in His divine, living, perpetual (as Authoritatively taught in, “Satis Cognitum”), Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. Amen. Alleluia. Save your wretched soul. Submit to the Holy Magisterium as it is divine as it is the Eternal Word Teaching and Governing His holy Church unto the Last Day. Amen. Alleluia. In caritas.
Take a good, long look at the hateful expression on The Clown’s face.
Dear Louis, I take a backseat to nobody when it comes it comes to being outraged by Bergoglio’s “blasphemies and heresies”, but being disgusted by those and appalled by the “slapping incident” need not be mutually exclusive. I’ve watched the video several times and I think it encapsulates this Pope’s malignant narcissism. It seems he glanced past the last person/child with whom he wished to make contact and had moved on when the woman grabbed him, and he was startled and irritated by her — not physically pained — when she grabbed him. He was enraged that she had the effrontery to disregard his wish not to engage with her and her gall to grab him; he slapped her less to get away from her than to punish her. Most telling was the look of disgust on his face when he stalked away from her. And, of course, you are correct: the next day, he couched his apology in examples that made his slaps seem silly stuff in comparison. The Pope may be an old man, but he is one of the most prominent leaders in the world – perhaps THE most prominent — and he had chosen to walk amid people to shake their hands. It is unfortunate, but predictable, that doing so would leave him vulnerable to overzealous people…at the very least. Bergoglio’s reaction was childish and nasty. It is impossible to imagine, say, Pope John Paul II reacting this way. Given that the Church was founded by a Saviour who said we should turn the other cheek when someone strikes us, this incident was about as bad an advertisement for the Catholicism as could be imagined.
I have just seen the film “The Two Popes” which should have been titled “A Tale of Two Popes”. This over-long Hollywood pro-Bergoglio propaganda movie depicts “pope” Francis as the humble, people-loving, savior of the poor kindly relieving over-burdened Ratzinger who happily sees Bergoglio take his place. The Bergoglio in the video slapping the hand of a devotee would have no place in this fictionalized version of what is supposed to be accurate and believable. Will the real Bergoglio please stand up? Doesn’t matter. Neither one is the pope. Neither one is Catholic.
While I agree there are more serious Bergoglian matters to be scandalized by, I see this a little differently. If you watch the whole video carefully, it appears to me that Bergoglio actually does see her make the Sign of the Cross (to his left as he approaches her), and then deliberately avoids her by turning away, thereby triggering her outreach. She is also calling out vocally in her distinctive voice about the Chinese plight, which he must have been hearing as he approached her in line. His retraction, revulsion and repelling from that Sign of the Cross is the more important story, as well as his denial of what this woman represents on behalf of the Chinese Catholics: He knew exactly what he was rejecting; it was no impulsive reaction to an overzealous fan’s touch, any more than it is when he repeatedly jerks his hand away from people who bend to kiss his ring. The proof also shows up in his so-called apology, where he talks about how “love needs to be patient”. This PR move was really a back-handed insult to the woman, calling attention to how most people are interpreting HER to be the impatient one, anxious to touch him. This is disingenuous. Reading between the lines he is actually reprimanding her for impatience, not himself in a phony mia culpa. His apology and repentance rings hollow. He uses the situation to manipulate people’s interpretation of the event in a masterful way. Especially because most people are seeing the short clip that deliberately cuts out the time leading up to the slap, and deleting the part where she calls out long before he reaches her, and where he can see that she is making the Sign of the Cross, and then deliberately chooses to turn away from her in an overt and direct rejection. Notice his left eye (door to his soul). It’s like an egyptian eye, scanning his left peripheral vision as he advances left, while his body still faces partly right shaking hands. He hears and sees her, but pretends he does not. But she will not be dissuaded or ignored, she is driven by the truth. That is exactly what he cannot and will not face.
When General Patton slapped a soldier he was demoted and the press ate him alive. Do you think there is any chance for that with this grumpy clown?? I think not. He is the darling of the liberal press so he will undoubtedly get away with it. Where is the chivalry in this blackguard masquerading as a papal knight dressed in white or is he really a pawn for New World Order Church placed there to make it seem like the “apparent leader” of the Catholic world who gets to call Our Lady a liar and slap a damsel in distress? Shame, shame on him! Where is the Me Too or is it the Me Three movement? Why aren’t they crying for his abdication!? What a bunch of hypocrites! I thought they were defending women’s rights or animal rights or Lady Gaia Gaga’s rites of the UN-holy world religion. I don’t think Bergoglio would treat a dog that way and if he did PETA would crucify him or spray paint him. Where is the Novus Ordo outrage over this! Don’t hold your breath in this Rome will lose the faith age and become the seat of the anti-Christ. Maybe they will hire Christopher Ferrara to defend Frank as the “Bishop dressed in White” when the lawsuit is filed by the poor woman who was slapped. It would definitely be a rigged trial if it goes to the Roman Rota. Sadly, Chris would probably win because the majority always rules in the New Church of the New Order as they must have their “heretic Pope” and eat him to or is it sift him as they eat him to. When will the majority of Catholics realize that it is an oxymoron to call a legitimate pope a heretic according to Vatican I but an illegitimate one who says and does manifestly heretical things as Bergoglio has done with his Amoris laetitia or Pachamama is no more a pope than you or I let alone a member of the Catholic Church. As the last true pope reminded us Pius XII in Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943: “For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.” This guy is the logical successor of all the Conciliar false popes and their clown act of Vatican II liturgical revolution meant to slap over the face of Our Lord and Lady their own image which is that of a man centered monkey business worshiping with the Golden Calf dancers as they continue to hoodwink the Catholics in the Novus Ordo Pews: those who have been too fried to see the desert surrounding them and don’t understand that if they don’t stop following these guys, as they die from thirst, they will never get to the promised land.
Johnno, Can you give me a URL site where Bergoglio called her the B word you know female dog? Unless you heard an audio or knew a witness who heard him call her that how do you know? That would really be bad if he said that.
“It is impossible to imagine, say, Pope John Paul II reacting this way. Given that the Church was founded by a Saviour who said we should turn the other cheek when someone strikes us…”
And I take a backseat to no one when a reference to the heresiarch Karol Wojtyla is immediately followed by one to Our Blessed Lord. “John Paul II” was the poster boy for narcissism. How anyone can fail to see that is troubling. He was “The Most Travelled Pope in the History of the Church,” we are told by the media, but what we are not told is that his travelling was all about him. Take the time to watch the video footage of him on the net as he struts before the assembled throng. Look at his face—in particular his eyes. He was an actor, and like most every other actor on the planet, he wanted the masses to worship him. He got his wish. Then he died. And then…
I’d like to slap jorge.
Louie:
You are about the only Catholic commentator that I can stand to read on a consistent basis. Always appreciate your point of view. Thank you for the sanity.
Wojtyla an, “heresiarch”? Call him as he is to be known, in the fully objective realm of, “reality as it is”, in truth thus, and as per the command of our Blessed Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ, Who commanded us to KNOW the other by his fruits; “You will know them by their fruits”. An evil tree CANNOT bear good fruit, just as a good tree cannot bear evil fruit. He then commanded that there would be, “false Christs”, who would deceive many. You simply remain among the, “many”, who are deceived. Amen. You are so riddled with pride in your objective hubris, that you actually think that you have it, “figured out”, as if it is humanly possible to somehow, “figure any of this out”. Amen. Thus, you remain blind to Antichrist and the desolation which he has left as his aftermath, while prophesied by Daniel, in this now scorched and barren world, as without Apostolic Succession since Oct., 27, 1958, and now unto the Last Day. Amen. Alleluia. This loss of Apostolic Succession is Authoritatively taught in, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, which you remain blind to as an heretic, as Authoritatively taught in, “Satis Cognitum”. Amen. There is only ONE time prophesied for the coming of Antichrist into this world and of course. As inerrantly taught by the Early Church Fathers, that time was to be commensurate with the loss of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, with the very person of Antichrist then present in this world, as the efficient cause of the loss of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Amen. Alleluia. As the Angelic Doctor taught, when the intellect perfectly conforms, as by the reception of God’s grace alone, to the, “reality as it is”, the human person then KNOWS TRUTH. Amen. Alleluia. We were given the power to, “reason to Truth”. Amen. Who do you think, “false Christs”, are mmf? False Vicars of Christ and of course, as no other man in the cosmos, but for the Vicar of Christ as the true Holy Roman Pontiff as validly and canonically elected, ever has claimed to be, The Christ in this world, but for madmen on their sure and certain paths to Hell. Amen. Alleluia. Divine prophesy has been fulfilled as revealed, and you as any and all other truly non-Catholics who actually believe, in utter deception, that they are Catholic, Oh’ mmf, remain utterly blind to the truth, as the Angelic Doctor taught that truth simply is the, “reality as it is”, while at once it is NOT, how you in your abysmal fiat deem it to be. You cannot be Catholic while affronting the teaching of the divine Magisterium, whether you or anyone else knows it or not. Amen. Karol Wojtyla was in truth simply a vicar of Antichrist, as a false pope, who celebrated a false rite, of a false mass, of the false church, of the very person of Antichrist.
So called, “Vatican II”, is utterly an afterthought, while at once it is continually given the spotlight. It was begotten by its false church, which is the very subject of the matter, which remains as forever overlooked in obscurity, shrouded as it is, and in reality as it is, it is the object of the very person of Antichrist–that is, his false church–, as true Councils were begotten by the true Church, you imbecile. Simply because you remain perfectly blind to the, reality as it is, does not somehow change that utter reality, and not by one iota, you miserable, non-Catholic, religion of man adhering, obstinately heretical fool. Wake up you pseudo-intellectual heretic, while at once in truth you are simply another neo-pagan, as adherent to the religion of man. The false vatican ii council, is the language of the religion of man, whose church is the false church of Antichrist. The religion of man simply is the, “novus ordo seclorum”, as the religion of the, “new world order”. It is all here and in play, as it has been evolving in its utter hideousness, as it has since that horrific as prophetic day fulfilled, Oct. 27, 1958, when Apostolic Succession was forever lost to this Godless world in utter Apostasy. Amen. Save you soul mmf. Receive the true Apostolic Faith. Amen. Alleluia. In caritas.
I think this is right on the nose, Johnno. What an evil villain this creep Jorge is. I’ve been wondering as I’ve seen these ridiculous arguments about who was being the violent person in this scenario, if they were at all aware of what has been happening to Chinese Catholics by Jorge’s Communist cohorts. Clearly this woman was pleading for them and this jerk face was trying to avoid her and failed miserably. I wonder myself if she might know someone personally who has been disappeared and my heart breaks for her and all the Chinese Catholics. I hope they realize this scumbag is not our Pope and keep their faith through this nightmare.
The movie is a lie. It’s from (((Hollywood))) and its (((producers))) know it’s a lie.
Prisca Ann- I think you will have to wait on line for that slap.
Well, I see what you are saying, but if that turns out to be the case, God certainly left His church in an unholy mess for generations. That would test people’s faith a lot more, it seems to me, than it going off the rails since VII. None of us are going to know the answer to this until we shuffle off this mortal coil. Until then it’s all conjecture. I admit I’m rather confounded at the idea that God expects us all to be Sherlock Holmes to deduce where the “real” church is. I don’t know where it is anymore, and I’m not even sure I care much. I’m just going to cling to Christ and hope for the best. Try to stay as Catholic as I can.
I’m pretty sure this incident woke up at least some people to his malevolence and anger. There’s some good in that.
Noticed something not yet mentioned by others here or elsewhere: The woman standing on the Oriental woman’s left side was actually the one who grasped Jorge’s hand as he turned away and she then handed it off to the Oriental woman! You will need to slow down the video to 0.25 speed to see this. That woman grabs Jorge’s hand at the 18 second mark. She guides Jorge’s hand down toward the Oriental woman’s hand – who – at the 19 second mark – then takes Jorge’s hand and pulls him toward her.
Whether the two women knew each other previously or the woman on the Oriental woman’s left had just learned of the Oriental woman’s desperate need to speak to Jorge and was trying to help her accomplish it, the unknown woman demonstrated more kindness to the Oriental woman than our Papal pretender could ever muster.
Exactly as I saw it: Bergoglio was at least vaguely aware that this particular woman wanted to engage with him; he was uninterested in her and turned away; he was more offended, not physically hurt, that she dared grab him; and he slapped her to punish her. As for those commenting that JPII also was a narcissist, my hypothetical was specific: would JPII ever have acted as Bergoglio did in this type of situation? I assert that Pope JPII NEVER would have acted that way.
Exactly as I saw it: Bergoglio was at least vaguely aware that this particular woman wanted to engage with him; he was uninterested in her and turned away; he was more offended, not physically hurt, that she dared grab him; and he slapped her to punish her. As for those commenting that JPII also was a narcissist, my hypothetical was specific: would JPII ever have acted as Bergoglio did in this type of situation? I assert that Pope JPII NEVER would have acted that way.
Canon212 had a bunch of links, though I say he ‘apparently’ said that because I’m just going off what others have stated as I don’t speak either of the languages involved here.
But some claim that Bergolio didn’t call her that. This one quote is from VoxCantoris. I’m avoiding putting direct links here in case it goes into moderation:
“Spanish speaker here and I apologize for my broken English. I do not like the man who now usurps the chair of Peter and I think there is no excuse for slapping a woman, but I clearly hear him saying to her: “Hey, dame la mano”. That’s it. No more. Which translates: “Hey, let go of my hand” or “give me my hand”. Nothing added. I am surprised that people say he called her “bruja” or “puta” or anything else. I tried to hear several times and I never hear something similar. I mention this out of justice.”
So, if he’s right, then my apologies to Bergolio for spreading misinformation. But my point still stands, the real scandal here is how this incident poetically highlights his treatment of the Chinese Catholics.
The trailer alone was enough to tell me it was a whitewash propaganda flick. So I haven’t bothered trying to see it.
From what others have said, I’d compare this to the equivalent of making a movie called ‘The Two Presidents’ and made it about Obama and Trump hanging out, being best friends, and Obama seeing Trump as a great humble man and a correction to his backwards ideas, and then show this film to Liberals and tell them how they feel about that movie is exactly how Catholics feel about ‘The Two Popes.’ Catholics who are paying attention anyway…
Frankly, I’m much more looking forward to HBO’s ‘The New Pope’ follow-up to ‘The Young Pope.’ Unfortunately due to the fact that HBO shows have pointless gratuitous sex scenes, this series ain’t something you can recommend to everyone, if anyone. But if you were to cut out that stuff, you’d get a surprisingly more honest and fair look at the Catholic Church and the scandals therein, particularly the homosexual ones, and the utter failure of liberalism within a Catholic context.
And given that ‘The New Pope’ is directly dealing with the hot button issue of two Popes existing at the same time, which is an obvious scandal, I’m thinking the show’s creators are very aware of the burning questions behind the Francis pontificate and what all is going on there, and I’m very much interested in seeing how this one turns out.
The HBO fiction might have more truth than the ‘based on real life’ Netflix nonsense.
Since you double-posted your comment, I thought it best to let you know that I agree with you: JPII would NEVER have reacted to the Chinese woman the way Bergoglio did. That said, JPII’s pontificate must be judged by what his actions have wrought. Take a look.
“As for those commenting that JPII also was a narcissist, my hypothetical was specific: would JPII ever have acted as Bergoglio did in this type of situation? I assert that Pope JPII NEVER would have acted that way.”
Of course not. JPII was a trained actor.
“…it seems that most of us still remain sensitive to certain evils, recognizing them for what they are when we see them; e.g., an animal being abused by a human, a child being exploited by an adult, or a woman being slapped by a man.
That’s the good news.
The bad news is that far too few among us are nearly as sensitive to those acts of evil – like blasphemy and heresy…”
You could have said this much and left it at that, Mr. V.. Why add to this distraction?
2Vermont: “JPII was a trained actor.” Fine, I’ll take it. I’m not going to fault anyone for calling upon acting skills to keep from hitting a woman when irritated by her.
Point being utahagen: JPII was very good at acting in general, including being pope. One must be very careful to look at the other Vatican II “popes” and say, “they wouldn’t do such and such….” They were/are all men of the Vatican II Council. As Louie alluded to in his blog peice, we should be much more concerned with their heresy/apostasy than whether they were capable/likely to/did slap a woman.
Those of us who loved JPII saw in him his great heart full of kindness and love – both of God and his fellow man – something not at all apparent in Jorge. It is erroneous to attribute those great attributes of JPII to acting skills. His loving kindness was real – borne out by the great fruits it bore! For love begets love!
Did JPII do some things that could weaken Holy Mother Church? Well, yes. However, it does not appear that he did those things fully cognizant of the harm they could cause, but was simply caught up in the spirit of the Vatican II times in which he lived – unlike Jorge whose blasphemies and heresies seem to be purposefully contrived and enhanced so they will do the greatest harm to Holy Mother Church. Jorge tells Catholic youth: Go back to your Parishes and make a mess! JPII would never have said that. And I agree that there is no way JPII would have slapped the Oriental woman or had such a vile expression as Jorge’s on his face!
JPII’s immense spirituality can be seen in the way he forgave and ministered to the Turkish man who shot him – resulting in that man’s eventually visiting JPII’s tomb with roses, praising JPII’s God with the words, “Long live Jesus Christ, the only redeemer in the world!” Mere acting simply can’t bring about such great spiritual fruit as that!! And unlike many proponents of Vatican II, JPII embraced the supernatural and was very much in touch with God – loving to spend hours in Eucharistic Adoration in the real presence of his beloved Lord!
For those of you who just can’t get beyond the fact that JPII, as Pope, did some harmful Modernist things, I suggest you take to heart the words of both, our Lord and St. Stephen, who said of their killers: “Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.” Who among us has not made mistakes? I believe that JPII, in his great loving nature, embraced and did some things without knowing the full negative implications of what he did. He knew on one level what he was doing, but not, perhaps, on another deeper level. And unlike Jorge, there was no malevolence whatsoever within him.
Look at JPII’s heart and know that he was a great lover of God and of man! And that is why we love him!
Anyone who is interested in learning/understanding just what IC means about the cessation of Apostolic Succession (and all else with it) after Pope Pius XII should read this article:
https://www.betrayedcatholics.com/free-content/reference-links/3-the-latin-mass/jurisdiction-lawful-pastors-and-communicatio-in-sacris/
These modern apostates can give nothing but millstones.
The worst evils are usually done by good men on the wrong side. JP2 was simply a modernist who did great harm to the Faith regardless of his great love for humanity. Too bad his zealous love was for the creature instead of the Faith.
If I were able to look at JPII’s heart, I wouldn’t be here objecting to you telling us to look at JPII’s heart. None of us have that sort of knowledge. Only God does.
We CAN know, however, that his heart was deformed by bad philosophy and bad theology. This much was made manifest in his own life.
We can hope, though, that all that wasn’t all unto his own condemnation. We can hope likewise that IN SPITE of it all and not BECAUSE of it all, He truly loved God the Father and His Divine Son Jesus Christ.
NQP: “None of us have that sort of knowledge.”
Jesus Christ: “By THEIR fruits YOU WILL KNOW them.”
We can and we certainly MUST know that having been a public apostate, Wojtyla was outside of the Church, and as there were no reports of repentance as his life came to an end, we are permitted to assume that he is, in fact, damned.
The Vatican II mindset in a nutshell.
Dear Evangeline,
You must know these simple truths to get to Heaven, as doubt and conjecture take souls to Hell, as Christ Jesus our Lord and God commanded this, and that is why He gave the True Vicars of Christ the Charisms of His Holy Spirit, “truth and never failing faith”, such that the true Successors of Blessed Peter could protect the divine Deposit of Faith, deFide, as the Vatican Council defined this in its Fourth Session, July, 1870. Amen. Alleluia. You simply CANNOT be Catholic if you do not receive these truths, as they have been revealed, and all but all who live and breathe since Oct., 1958 were/are perfectly blind to this, and in Hell or on their way. There simply cannot be opinion/doubt in matters of the Faith as that is opposed to Truth, and The Christ commanded: “I Am the Way and the Truth and the Life, NO ONE comes to the Father except by Me.” As Jesus the Christ IS TRUTH, and NO ONE comes to the Father except by Him, NO ONE comes to the Father except by TRUTH, not conjecture, doubt, opinion, which will damn you deFide, and all others who hold ANY doubt in matters deFide. Amen. Alleluia. Only saints get to Heaven and saints hold Truth as they are in Christ Jesus as He commanded: He who KNOWS My commands and follows them loves Me, and as I Am in the Father, you are in Me, and I in you. Amen.
Know with apodictic certitude that this statement of yours,
” I don’t know where it [the Catholic Church] is anymore, and I’m not even sure I care much.”, is, “evil fruit”, and it will damn you, as Jesus the Christ commanded in Matthew 7:19-20, “Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.” Know this dear Evangeline as you are being warned by the grace of God. Know also that you are warned by the Apostle Paul in 2 Thess 2:10-11, “And in all seduction of iniquity to them that PERISH; because they receive NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, that they MIGHT BE SAVED. Therefore God shall send them THE OPERATION OF ERROR, TO BELIEVE LYING: that all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity.”
This is the Catholic Faith Evangeline. You must know it such that you can assent to it, when you are faced with the questions, as it is presented to you as to all, by the living, perpetual, divine Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, Christ Jesus with us unto the Last Day. Jesus the Christ commanded, “You are either with Me or you are against Me.”, there is NO MIDDLE GROUND. There is no luke warm, as in, “I’m not even sure I care much”, as that belief is perfectly opposed to Jesus the Christ, dear Evangeline. Save your wretched soul. Submit to Jesus the Christ who commanded that His Church will be here, as He will be with us, unto the Last Day. Pope Leo XIII infallibly warned us in, “Satis Cognitum”, that aspects of the Church had already fallen to the powers of Hell in His time, and that the Church is preserved in Her foundation, not in Her parts. Aspects or parts of Holy Mother Church have succumb to the powers of Hell but the Church remains in Her foundation as inviolable, untouched, untarnished, as only chinks in Her armor. Amen. Alleluia. In caritas.
In Caritas you said “Aspects or parts of Holy Mother Church have succumbed to the powers of Hell but the Church remains in Her foundation as inviolable, untouched, untarnished, as only chinks in Her armor. Amen. Alleluia. In caritas.”
I think it more proper to say that The whole bride of Christ is inviolable in all her parts and because not one of her perfect body parts could ever be severed from Her because Her whole body is pure and undefiled by any defect. Now some idiot heretics in the human aspect of those who call themselves “catholic” and were baptized as Catholics can fall away from being nourished by the mother’s body (ie as well as her constituent parts) and no longer be connected to the parts but no part of the Holy Mother’s body can succumb to the power of Hell but those manifest heretics who were fed by the Mother’s body can fall away and leave her. The Church in all her parts and foundation is inviolable. The point is that these clowns went OUT of her and do NOT constitute ANY part of Her or a part of any of Her Parts as they severed themselves from the pure Bride of Christ. The body parts falling into Hell that you talk about is the bride of Frankichurch and that false church has a foundation built on quicksand. That false Church with the mystery Babylon body parts Vatican II Ecumeniacal church is the only thing that has succumbed to the Beast out of the Sea it is NOT any part of Holy Mother Bride of Christ- the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and NO part of Holy Mother Church has ever or Will Ever Succumb to the powers of Hell! Get that straight. You are into saying things in the proper and orthodox way and so I thought you would be open to being more precise.
Dear Marie Tageye,
What is written is not a matter of opinion, rather it is Authoritative, Ordinary and Universal Magisterial teaching, you must understand. That is why it was written that it comes from, “Satis Cognitum”. What was written stands as witness to Authoritative Truth. Amen. Find it as now copied and pasted for your edification from, “Satis Cognitum”, section 15:
“For it is the nature and object of a foundation to support the unity of the whole edifice and to give stability to it, rather than to each component part; and in the present case this is much more applicable, since Christ the Lord wished that by the strength and solidity of the foundation the gates of hell should be prevented from prevailing against the Church. All are agreed that the divine promise must be understood of the Church as a whole, and not of any certain portions of it. These can indeed be overcome by the assaults of the powers of hell, as in point of fact has befallen some of them.”
Now you stand corrected. I pray that you receive the grace of the Holy Ghost to see the Truth. Amen. In caritas.
Johnno, Thanks I think it is important to get what he actually said to the woman so as to be truthful and not embellish. Things are bad as it is. The fact is Bergoglio could have taken her arm with his other arm and extricated her arm from his but Mr. Humble didn’t do that but I guess with the Media if their fellow liberal does it it is ok. But it would have really added insult to injury if he would have called her the B word.
In caritas Thank you I stand corrected. I see Pope Leo’s infallible point regarding the way he used the Church as the imagery of a building and its foundation . I was speaking using the imagery of the Unspotted Bride of Christ and she would be pure in all Her parts but I see why Pope Leo meant to use the imagery of a Church as a building with a foundation as Leo said, ” All are agreed that the divine promise must be understood of the Church as a whole, and not of any certain portions of it”. The “divine promise is NOT meant for the “portions of it” and for me this clarifies the aspect of part and portion here”: Garner’s Modern American Usage as opposed to say “old English” correctly points out that “there are connotative differences” between portion and part. Portion generally means “share,” or “an entity cut (or as if cut) away from the whole.” Part, however, means “a constituent piece of the whole.” What I was trying to point out is that the “constituent part of the whole Bride of Christ like her hand or her foot or yes her head of the bride of Christ is part of Her perfect body and could NOT fall away but that a portion of that Constituent part ie baptized Catholics who become apostates or manifest heretics no longer feeds off of the body of Holy mother the Church and they brake away from the body that feeds them so as to un-attach themselves from Her. So heretics and apostates are NOT any longer in any part of the Body of Christ because they go out of the body of Christ down into the pit of Hell. If one gets away from the foundation and brakes off from it that that portion would be trying to divide itself from the foundation. I will give you an example the Church is always built on a solid foundation, however some heretics for instance may try to add another room to the foundation of the house with false doctrine and they build it not on the foundation but on sand and then that edifice which tried to connect itself to the Original edifice which is the Catholic Church will crumble.
James, thank you for that reference. Many of those sources clearly state that bishops can ordain validly even when done illicitly. A point I tried to make with IC but he vehemently opposed and began his tirade of issuing anathemas.
Please forgive me for being a little off topic but I typically am not interested in what Hollywood has to say but for some reason I thought I would brush up on what the enemy was most recently spewing. I was quite shocked to see that Hollywood allowed this monologue by Ricky Gervais at the 2020 Golden Globe awards to be aired by NBC. Beware of foul language and content but if you want to see Hollywood squirm for a change at their own awards this is something to watch. I am speachless.
You’re welcome.
However, that “validity” is purely academic, and worthless without Papal approval/jurisdiction, as you already know.
It’s in fact, sacrilegious to ordain without it.
James, I never disputed that issue, just validity. For that I was called an heretic. IC is extremely careless with his methodology and reasoning. Much of what he quotes as doctrinal is simply canonical. The issue that trad sedes should be discussing is supplied jurisdiction, not sacramental theology or papal succession laws.
And again, regarding the “Supplied Jurisdiction” to which you mistakenly and obstinately adhere so as to do your own will at the risk of your immortal soul:
Father Lawrence Joseph Riley, A.B., S.T.L., wrote the book: The History, Nature, and use of Epikeia in Moral Theology. Copyright 1948, The Catholic University of America Press, INC. Imprimatur: + Richardus Jacobus Cushing. D.D., 7 May, 1948.
Father Riley informs us on page 344:
“In short, it may be concluded that in regard to matters which touch the essence of the SACRAMENTS, the use of Epikeia is ALWAYS EXCLUDED.”
Father Riley informs us on page 347:
“In regard to the essence of these Sacraments, (Holy Orders and Matrimony) what has been explained above of all the Sacraments is applicable to them – viz., that EPIKEIA IS NEVER LICIT.”
A Simple Beggar
If you are talking about moral certitude of damnation, I agree. He was a objectively a huge scandal to the faithful and led a lot of people astray. I’m no cheerleader for Karol Wojtyla. Not even remotely.
However if you are talking about metaphysical certitude of damnation (or salvation for that matter), that’s between God and Karol Wojtyla.
Joseph Ratzinger was ordained a Priest in 1951.
The aftermath of the Antichrist? There you see, you do think he has been and gone already. What was his name, and where were the attendant signs that accompanied his appearance?
A Blessed Feast of the Epiphany of our Lord Jesus Christ to you and yours’, dear James_o,
As is beyond self evident to you now, Tom A is a malignant, non-Catholic, belligerent, miscreant fool, as an adherent to the religion of man, on his sure and certain path to his own personal eternity in Hell with his Prince, Lucifer. He hates The Christ, as he objectively hates the Truth. “You will know them by their fruits”, as commanded by our Blessed Christ Jesus, Who then commanded that He would cast the evil fruit into the everlasting fire of perdition. Tom A is well on his way as objectively known. Amen. Alleluia. Tom A yields the most evil fruit that I have borne witness to, along with his sidekick, so called mmf. All that Tom A concerns himself with, as the moronic pseudo-intellectual imbecile, which he overtly demonstrates himself to be time and time and time and again, with contradiction after contradiction struck from his keypad is, “winning the game”, as if that is what this is, and with the utter contradictory conjecture that he offers time and again, he’s blind to the reality that if this was a game, he’s not even in the ballpark where that game would be played, yet alone winning the game. He is a jingoistic, imbecilic moron, who objectively yearns for his own eternal damnation. “You will know them by their fruits”. “You are either with Me or you are against Me”, commands Jesus the Christ. Tom A opposes himself to the Son of God, objectively, on his way to Hell, deFide.
Stupid is much too gentle a word for the imbecilic fool, as Tom A repeatedly demonstrates himself to be. Loss of Apostolic Succession, deFide, as per, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, NO JURISDICTION TO BE HAD IN THE COSMOS—deFide—nothing else to know about so called, “validly ordained Bishops”. If Apostolic Succession was not lost on Oct.27, 1958, then Tom A and his mister “bishops”, must demonstrate where the active and canonically valid Conclave is now meeting, while also that it has been in constant session since prior Oct., 27, 1958, to be canonically valid, indicating that we are in a 61+ year interregnum. As they cannot demonstrate that, as it is not real, Apostolic Succession has been lost, deFide, as Pope Pius XII commanded in VAS that if anything was changed, subtracted from or added to at all, as without distinction thus without exception, that any Conclave would be, “null and void”. There is no turning back, as that changes his Apostolic Constitution, rendering any attempt to turn back, “null and void”. The Vatican Council Authoritatively taught, which Pope Pius XII affirmed in, “Ad Apostolorum Principis”, that we simply MUST ASSENT to the governance and discipline of the Pope, with the same act of our assent of faith as to his teaching on the Faith and Morality, thus this IS deFide at the pain of Hell in confrontation, as was commanded. Amen. Tom A, the jingoistic fool who hates Christ, ignores this, as he is blind to this, in his hatred of Jesus the Christ as Truth Himself, he is blinded. Amen. Alleluia.
If this were not enough, “Cum Ex…”, teaches Authoritatively that any apparent, “Bishop”, as in section 6, who ever even appears to the laity to, “deviate from the Faith”, yet alone commit heresy, was NEVER IN TRUTH EVER CONSECRATED A BISHOP, as the Holy Ghost is the One Who selects His Bishops, as Authoritatively taught in the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium by Pope Leo XIII in, “Divinum Illud Munus”, as also recorded on these pages in the recent past. Tom A and his mister, “bishops”, cannot demonstrate ONE VALIDLY CONSECRATED BISHOP IN THE COSMOS, as there were none who publicly rejected the false church of Antichrist which, “kidnapped”, to use profane vernacular, the See of Peter, in Oct., 1958. Amen. There is no valid Bishop therefore that they can point to, who was truly Consecrated by Pope Pius XII or before, where any valid yet illicit consecrations could have originated from, as their diabolical wellspring of illicit Bishops if you will, which they claim to have today, after Oct 9, 1958, with the death of Pope Pius XII. Please pray for Christ’s true children in this world dear Pope Pius XII. Amen. There is utterly NO POSSIBILITY for their pseudo-intellectual, jingoistic claim to, “supplied Jurisdiction”. With the loss of Apostolic Succession, there IS NO JURISDICTION TO BE SUPPLIED, as Blessed Peter in his Successors are GONE FROM THIS WORLD. They are riddled with so much hubris that they cannot even see that you simply cannot supply what you DO NOT HAVE TO SUPPLY. In point, the words of Tom A, “The issue that trad sedes should be discussing is supplied jurisdiction, not sacramental theology or papal succession laws.” There’s NOTHING TO DISCUSS, as it is taught Authoritatively as deFide in, “Satis Cognitum”, no Jurisdiction AT ALL AS NOT ONE IOTA, without Blessed Peter in his Successors, as they are the Singular Men in the cosmos who ever received this Charism from the Holy Ghost, as also taught in the Vatican Council. Amen. Alleluia. Hell awaits Tom A and his mindless cadre of miscreant fools and he has been warned now innumerable times. Amen. Alleluia. In caritas.
Dear TPS,
You haven’t written in days…..Apostolic Succession is lost TPS, deFide. If you claim that it hasn’t been lost, then demonstrate the canonically valid Conclave which has been in session continuously, involving itself with the business of electing the next Vicar of Christ, since prior Oct. 27, 1958, to prove interregnum, as you simply must. Anything else is, “null and void”, as per, “VAS”. When was the loss of Apostolic Succession prophesied to occur, as interpreted by the Early Fathers of the prophet Daniel, as tacitly understood? And as also taught of the Fathers by Henry Edward Cardinal Manning, a true Bishop in union with his Pope–thus infallible in matters of teaching the Faith, who also infallibly taught about the Apostle’s prophesy in 2 Thess 2. You must know prophesy as when it has actually been revealed to simply as truly be Catholic. You cannot hold the divine and Catholic Faith, that supernatural virtue both freely given and completely undeserved, which allows the intellect to see prophesy which has been revealed TPS. Understand that as you ask these questions, a true Catholic knows you by your fruits, as commanded by Jesus the Christ. It is objectively clear that you simply cannot hold the Gift of the divine and Catholic Faith as you ask the questions in doubt, TPS. Beg God for perfect contrition. Beg the Blessed Virgin to take you into her Immaculate Heart where you will be spiritually nurtured but only if you are willing to suffer in caritas. Jesus the Christ commanded that he who KNOWS His commands (the perpetual, living, divine Ordinary and Universal Magisterium here unto the Last Day) and follows them, loves Him, and as He is in the Father, you are then in Him as He is in you. I pray you receive the divine and Catholic Faith before you draw your final breath TPS. In caritas.
Oh’ TPS,
No Mass since his submission into the church of Antichrist in Oct, 1958, as that creature beast thing from Hell cannot both be the Catholic Church and not be the Catholic Church at the same time and under the same respect of what the Catholic Church constituted by the Son of God is. Amen. So your miserable point? He was not a Bishop, with apodictic certitude, as per the Authoritative teaching in, “Cum Ex….”. Period and end. In caritas.
Tom A, Lucifer’s own, again types utter contradiction as absurdity,
Tom A: “The worst evils are usually done by GOOD men on the WRONG side.”
What in your very own version of Lucifer’s Hell are you even attempting to write there Tom A, you pseudo-intellectual, imbecilic moron? “Wrong side”, as in EVIL, as the privation of the due good. “Good men”, “…on the EVIL side? What are you actually writing there Tom A, you imbecilic idiot? One simply CANNOT BE GOOD AND EVIL AT THE SAME TIME, you satanic fool. “Let your yea be yea and your no be no, anything else is from the devil”, commands the Incarnate Son of God. You claim no is yes, you imbecilic, devilish fool. You demonstrate objective as evil fruit as you hate Jesus the Christ, as you continue to defy Him, you accursed wretch. Only God can save your implacably darkened, hate filled soul from descending into eternal Hell. In caritas.
ASB, I believe I also said that too. Supplied Jurisdiction cannot fix a fault in matter, form, or intent. It only applies to the issue of licit or illicit. I love the way you set a strawman and attribute something to me that I did not say in order to knock it down in order to bolster your argument. It fools the reader into thinking if one is correct on one matter, one must be correct in others too. IC is a champion of this fallacy too. He quotes all sorts of authoritative documents so the reader assumes that his conclusions must also be correct. Ignorant readers will fall for these tricks. The question is whether you are simply an ignorant writer or are you purposely trying to decieve us? Either way, it isn’t too flattering.
Oh’ the imbecilic fool on his sure as certain road to his personal eternity in Hell, as Tom A,
Tom A is no more Catholic than is Jorge Bergoglio, simply two fiends of a different stripe of the, religion of man. Tom A actually believes that the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, living, divine, perpetual as Authoritatively and infallibly taught in, “Satis Cognitum”, cannot be understood by one who actually holds the divine and Catholic Faith, that supernatural virtue both freely given by the Giver and completely underserved by the miserable receiver. Amen. Alleluia. This cannot be made up. Anyone who is actually seeking the Truth WILL FIND IT, as commanded by the Son of God, Incarnate, Jesus the Christ, “Seek the Truth and you shall find it.” Once again, Tom A demonstrates as objectively that his fruit is poison, as it is evil, and he will be damned for all eternity, should he continue on his freely chosen road to Hell, as commanded by The Christ in Matthew, 7. Amen. Alleluia. Tom A’s intellect is blackened in darkness, on his way to Hell. Believe his fiat as conjecture and you too will spend your eternity there with him and his Prince, Lucifer. Amen. Tom A continues to affront, “Satis Cognitum”, as he has been warned innumerable times now. Pope Leo XIII Authoritatively taught there that the divine, living, and perpetual, meaning NEVER CHANGING AND NEVER ENDING, Magisterium will not be comprehended by the heretic nor heathen, as from section 9 here again:
“And so Hilary: “Christ teaching from the ship signifies that those who are outside the Church can never grasp the divine teaching; for the ship typifies the Church where the word of life is deposited and preached. Those who are outside are like sterile and worthless sand: they cannot comprehend” (Comment. in Matt. xiii., n. I). ”
Tom A is akin to, “sterile and worthless sand”, as he simply, “cannot comprehend”, the Authoritative Teaching and Governance of the living and perpetual, divine Magisterium, while at once he accuses the other of being, “an ignorant writer”. These accusations which come from his father, as the Father of Lies, simply cannot be made up, only borne witness to. He is precisely what he falsely accuses the other of being. Look below to see how he calls a man who chooses evil, a, “good man”. These lies of his are legion. He hates Jesus the Christ, Son of the Living God, to be known objectively as commanded by The Christ: “You will KNOW them by their fruits”. He rejects the teaching of the Magisterium as he is perfectly blind to it. He believes it is some document to be, “quoted”, rather than the actual as literal commands of the Son of God Incarnate which MUST BE ASSENTED TO, to get to Heaven and glorify Almighty God. He is simply a poor, poor, miserable neo-pagan adherent as proponent of the satanic religion of man, who denies the reality as it simply is, truth thus. Only God can save him, yet he must yield his fiat. In caritas
Anastasia-Did you catch the line about the pedophile films including “The Two Popes”. The truth hurts and it is good to see these Hollywood phonies squirm.
In caritas you stated,
…..Apostolic Succession is lost TPS, deFide. If you claim that it hasn’t been lost, then demonstrate the canonically valid Conclave which has been in session continuously, involving itself with the business of electing the next Vicar of Christ, since prior Oct. 27, 1958, to prove interregnum, as you simply must. Anything else is, “null and void”, as per, “VAS”. When was the loss of Apostolic Succession prophesied to occur, as interpreted by the Early Fathers of the prophet Daniel, as tacitly understood? And as also taught of the Fathers by Henry Edward Cardinal Manning, a true Bishop in union with his Pope–thus infallible in matters of teaching the Faith, who also infallibly taught about the Apostle’s prophesy in 2 Thess 2.
Apostolic Succession does not depend on a papal conclave ALONE it depends entirely on Jesus Christ & His Church. In a state of emergency the CHURCH SUPLIES JURISDICTION & YOU CAN NOT PROOVE OTHERWISE BECAUSE HISTORY & TRUE PROPHETS LIKE NICHOLAS OF FLUH SHOWS THIS- Papal conclaves are important in it for it to run more “smoothly” However, look at the history of why it is NOT LOST FOREVER AFTER THE DEATH OF ANY FALSE POPE OR ANTIPOPE OR EVEN A TRUE POPE THAT DIES. Historical proof is when Pope Gregory XII resigned in 1415 during the Council of Constance & Great Western Schism because of all the confusion (and no longer a real pope because of Gregory’s resignation) and the Church supplied jurisdiction even though there was antipope/ false pope John XXIII and antipope/false pope Benedict XIII claiming to be the true pope (even until the time he died in 1423) now then there were still priests being ordained and Bishops consecrated even though there was NO true pope for over 2 and half years and of course people went to Masses when two men claimed to be popes and were false popes/ anti-popes and NO POPE was on the earth till they elected Pope Martin in 1417. So what you are saying that “apostolic succession” ends just because of antipopes or false popes or no pope is a FALSE STATEMENT or even if it be over 40 years with no pope until a true pope is elected which is what the Jesuit Edmund James O’Reilly said in 1882. You are wrong on this point. If anyone believes that we don’t have any more priests or Bishops because of this apostasy you are WRONG ON THIS POINT because Christ said to his apostles that he would NOT leave them orphans. Just because Catholics do NOT have a pope on the Chair of Peter does not mean that there are no true priests or Bishops somewhere. The Church, even if it has to go underground and is obscured, is still for the real Catholics who are left in desperate times (such as the Apostasy in England) are still going to be able to find the “priests in hiding” and in the case say of Japan where they had no valid priests or Bishops in their local country Christ eventually did send them some later in the 1800’s and there were and always will be somewhere true priests and Bishops. So NO I do not agree that Apostolic Succession “was forever lost”. That is poppycock and does not hold up to historical analysis or what is happening today. Now you might quibble about licit and so forth but in a state of emergency our Lord himself will provide emergency rations for the faithful in perpetuity despite any long interregnums. No pope when he dies is going to want to have a “technical rule” in which he says if you don’t have a future election exactly this way you are never going to get a true pope. The perpetual succession means that there will after a valid papal election be a valid successor of Peter and not as some protestant sects who believe that after Peter died there was NO more leaders over the Church like him. The difficult struggle today is that the elections have been invalid due to manifest heretics running the show. They have been the successors of the “Eclipse crowd” overshadowing the One, Holy and Apostolic Bride of Christ. So our Lord is NOT going to leave us WITHOUT a few “white knights” in the form of true Bishops as the successors of the Apostles who one day after the Great Chastisement will in fact appoint a true Pope or Peter himself will come down. With what you are saying it would really be totally 100 percent chaotic with NO apostolic succession and NO priesthood.
Here is proof that Apostolic Succession is NOT dead and Vatican I said AND THE CATHOLIC ENCYLOPEDIA , “that it would be perpetual until the end of time from The intention of Christ is apparent from the passages of Holy Writ, which telL of the conferring of the mission upon the Apostles. “As the Father hath sent Me, also send you” (John, xx, 21). The mission of the Apostles, like the mission of Christ, is a Divine mission; they are the Apostles, or ambassadors, of the Eternal Father. “All power is given to Me in heaven and on earth. Going, therefore, teach ye all nations; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you; and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation -of the world” (Matt., xxviii, 18). This Divine mission is always to continue the same, hence it must be transmitted with its Divine character until the end of time, i. e. there must be an unbroken lawful succession which is called Apostolicity. The Apostles understood their mission in this sense. St. Paul, in his Epistle to the Romans (x, 8-19), insists upon the necessity of a Divinely established mission. “How shall they preach unless they be sent.” (In an emergency IC it is Christ himself who sends them from whatever Bishops consecrated by the last true Pope who still possess the Catholic faith.)
Above from https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA648&lpg=PA648&dq=does+apostolic+succession+++go+on+till+the+end+of+time+according+to+Catholic+Church&sig=ACfU3U2l3HfIEcaNZkZuz2hKm85rDK0olA&id=poNPAQAAIAAJ&ots=5Ksn21kelR&output=text
I think your interpretation believes that the line is permanently broken and so that allows the anti-Christ to come in because the pope is the restraining hand to stop the anti-Christ from coming however that does NOT mean necessarily that there can not be true Bishops or that latter when the Anti-Christ is gone there will not be a true Pope . Also it may be that there is a True pope when the anti-Christ comes but he is repressed as Fr. Herman Kramer seems to indicate in his “Book of Destiny” You and I In Caritas are not infallible so our interpretations can be wrong.
We are not yet at the end of all time so we have apostolic succession on this earth as Christ said he would NOT leave us orphans (without priests or Bishops even though they be reduced to one just before Christ returns to judge the living and the dead.
Prophecy of St. Nicholas of Fluh (1417-1487): “The Church will be punished because the majority of her members, high and low, will become so perverted. The Church will sink deeper and deeper until she will at last SEEM to be extinguished, and the succession of Peter and the other Apostles TO HAVE expired. But, after this, she will be victoriously exalted in the sight of all doubters.”
see Yves Dupont, Catholic Prophecy, Rockford, IL: Tan Books, 1973, p. 30.
Apostolic succession is implied as existing here till the end of time below in The Apocalypse of St. John seems to indicate the same.
Apocalypse 11:1-2:
“And there was given me a reed like unto a rod, and it was said to me: Arise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that adore in it. But the court, which is without the temple, cast out, and measure it not, because it is given to the Gentiles…” The Haydock version of the Douay-Rheims Bible, a popular compilation of Catholic commentary on the Scriptures by Rev. Fr. Geo. Leo Haydock, contains the following commentery on Apoc. 11:1-2.
Catholic Commentary on Apoc. 11:1-2, Haydock version of the Douay-Rheims Bible:
“The churches consecrated to the true God, are so much diminished in number, that they are represented by St. John as one church; its ministers officiate at one altar; and all the true faithful are so few, with respect to the bulk of mankind, that the evangelist sees them assembled in one temple, to pay their adorations to the Most High. – Pastorini.”The Douay-Rheims New Testament with a Catholic Commentary, by Rev. Leo Haydock, Monrovia, CA: Catholic Treasures, 1991, p. 1640. Jesus said to his apostles even though he was going to leave them he would not leave them orphans and he would be with them to the end of time which sure sounds like the Church continues to have a priesthood in the order of Melchizedek till the end of time when He returns. I don’t think that Cardinal Manning said it the way you interpret it. Jesus Christ is the creator of the Cosmos and if he wants Apostolic Succession then He will carry it out himself and His Church will provide it. What you are saying is that Jesus Christ’ priesthood dies out on the earth and we are left orphans without priests somewhere. I don’t think the prophets & saints mean that.
Oh’ Marie Tageye,
Next time, save yourself many keystrokes, as your profound error speaks as res ipsa loquitur in the very first paragraph of your screed, written in utter opinion, as platitudes of error. You wrote this in the first paragraph of your response:
“Apostolic Succession does not depend on a papal conclave ALONE it depends entirely on Jesus Christ & His Church. In a state of emergency the CHURCH SUPLIES JURISDICTION & YOU CAN NOT PROOVE OTHERWISE BECAUSE HISTORY & TRUE PROPHETS LIKE NICHOLAS OF FLUH SHOWS THIS- Papal conclaves are important in it for it to run more “smoothly” However, look at the history of why it is NOT LOST FOREVER AFTER THE DEATH OF ANY FALSE POPE OR ANTIPOPE OR EVEN A TRUE POPE THAT DIES.
Firstly, Apostolic Succession depends precisely as singularly on the Papal Election Law which is active at the time (“Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”), as, “history”, plays no specific role whatsoever, as to suggest otherwise affronts the Magisterium as Authoritatively written by Pope Pius XII in his Encyclical, “Ad Apostolorum Principis”, where he specifically teaches that the Church cannot assent to the historical realities of Papal Authoritative Governance, as the consequence of this is the pain of Hell, rather, the Church must submit to the active Authoritative Governance of Blessed Peter in his Successors when and as they invoke the Gift of the Keys to bind and loose. Amen. To deny this is simply to deny the Catholic Faith as an heretic or heathen. Amen. Deny this thus at your very own risk of a personal eternity with Lucifer.
Secondly, as the next profound error in your very first paragraph of response, you wrote this, “In a state of emergency the CHURCH SUPLIES JURISDICTION…”.
This statement of yours utterly as specifically affronts the Authoritative as infallible teaching of, “Satis Cognitum”, which affirms the Authoritative teaching of the only Vatican Council, whereby it is commanded that the Gift of Jurisdiction IS NOT SUPPLIED BY THE CHURCH, as it is given by the Holy Ghost to Blessed Peter exclusively in his person and in his Successors. Jurisdiction then flows only from Blessed Peter to the Bishops in union with him. Period and end. No Blessed Peter in the world, no Jurisdiction to supply, as the contrary argument is pure absurdity, as you cannot supply that which in truth you simply DO NOT HAVE TO SUPPLY. Deny this also at the pain of heresy and consequently your very own personal eternity in Hell. Amen. Alleluia. The period of true as valid, “interregnum”, allows for the Bishops to do only what they ever do, and not what the Vicar of Christ does, as Authoritatively taught in, “VAS”. The true Church is NOT NOW IN INTERREGNUM, deFide, nor has it been since that forever sorrowful as fatelful date of Oct. 27, 1958, as the false Bishops (as per the Authoritatively teaching of, “Cum Ex…”) as Cardinals defied, “VAS”, as they falsely elected improper matter in the person of Angelo Roncalli, which resulted in an invalid Conclave, and thus produced a false pope of his false church (the lying wonders and power of Satan) thus, simply dressed in the metaphysical accidental forms of the former accidentals held by the true Catholic Church. Amen. Period and end. The Catholic Church did not do this, rather, “wolves dressed in Sheep’s clothing”, did. I pray that you ultimately receive the divine and Catholic Faith, which as the ONLY means of salvation, remains the only as singular means to allow the darkened intellect of the miserable human creature to KNOW with apodictic certitude, as that is what the reception of the true Faith supplies, the prophetic time as it has been unveiled in this, our time. Amen. Alleluia. In caritas.
Amen IC.
VAS aside for a moment, on top of that, if you cannot ordain Bishops without a true Pope’s
approval/jurisdiction, how on earth can apostolic succession continue and not dry up without a true Pope? What’s this “a few priests left hiding” stuff? Hiding from what or from whom?
In hiding, for sure.
We would be naive to think that there were NO valid and licit bishops and priests, at the time of the election and apostasy and installation of the false church of Antichrist, who were NOT enlightened by the Grace of God, and who did not go into hiding, and although elderly, are not still in hiding. We know this to be true in the instance if priests, as it has been documented by at least one person that some did exist and were being sought after to perform weddings for their children. As time went on, these few opportunities dwindled. Such Bishops who refused to apostasize and went into hiding retained their jurisdiction from Pius XII, however, without a Papal Mandate they could not, of course, consecrate new Bishops. Priests also retained their jurisdiction.
I think the distinction needs to be made between the PUBLIC and PRIVATE i.e. in hiding, There are NO valid and licit PUBLIC Masses or Sacraments on the face of the earth, however, there must be at least a sorry few being said PRIVATELY by some poor priests and bishops in hiding who were ALWAYS loyal to Christ and His Church, by the sheer Grace and enlightenment of God alone. Afterall, God gave man “120 years”. Time is running out.
That being said and also, one of the first Bishops, St. John, has not yet died.
Dear Anastasia, the blessings of Almighty God be upon you and your family. As for any “speech” of Ricky Gervais at the Golden Globe Awards: nothing would have been allowed to be said that the evil powers running that organisation had not decided to allow, a kind of “bluff”. Mr Gervais is very much a tool of that evil corrupting propaganda; he has not disowned them, nor does he condemn evil. He is still very much part of their operations, and continuing to support perverts, appear on their “shows”, etc. No, his rotten, morally-bankrupt “speech” is about normalising all this evil – the satanic powerful and secretive network behind and over “Hollywood”, etc., etc., like to boast to their masses of slaves about the evil they do, and bask in the weak response of, or docile acceptance by, an ever-more corrupted, and morally-enslaved people who do as they dictate, so much like an army of robots.
Lord have mercy upon us. Viva Cristo Rey.
ASB,
I have not yet learned anything about St. John concerning what you just mentioned, about him not dying.
Would there be some writings on that subject you could suggest?
Furthermore, In Caritas I agree when the anti-Christ comes on the scene the sacrifice of the Mass will seemingly disappear although the original The Original & True Rheims New Testament from the 1582 version with updated type set which I quote below by – Dr. William G von Peters does admit that the Mass even in a small area may be done during the Antichrist’s reign along with what the Haydock version said which I mentioned in my other post. Here it says in the Commentary on the Original Doughy Rheims ”
“For although he may have his principal seat and honor in the Temple and city of Jerusalem, yet HE SHALL RULE OVER THE WHOLE WORLD, (well In Caritas this has NOT happened yet that all the governments are ruled by one ruler so that the Mass would cease. ), and specifically prohibit that principal worship instituted by Christ in his Sacraments, as being the proper Adversary of Christ’s person, name, law, and Church, the profanation and desolation of which Church by taking away the sacrifice of the altar, is the proper abomination of desolation, and the work of Antichrist only.
Below Annotation Commentary on Matthew 24 in 1582 D.R.
“15. Abomination of desolation.] This abomination of desolation foretold, was first partly
fulfilled in diverse profanations of the Temple of Jerusalem, when the sacrifice and service of God was
taken away. But specially it shall be fulfilled by Antichrist and his Precursors, when they shall abolish
the holy Mass, which is the Sacrifice of Christ’s body and blood, and the only sovereign worship due to
God in his Church: as St. Hippolytus writeth in these words: The Churches shall lament with great
lamentation, because there shall neither oblation be made, nor incense, nor worship grateful to God.
But the sacred houses of Churches shall be like to cottages, and the precious body and blood of Christ
shall not be extant (openly in Churches) in those days, the Liturgy (or Mass) shall be extinguished, the
Psalmody shall cease, the reciting of the Scriptures shall not be heard. Hippol. de Antichristo. By which
it is plain that the Heretics of these days be the special fore-runners of Antichrist.
22. Shall be shortened.] The reign of Antichrist shall be short, that is, three years and a half.
Dan. 7, Apoc. 11. Therefore the Heretics are blasphemous and ridiculous, that say, Christ’s Vicar is
Antichrist, who hath sitteth these 1500 [now almost 2000, ed.] years.”
So “In Caritas” it would seem that the Mass for the most part would cease for 3 1/2 years but there is NOT an anti-Christ yet who has rule over all the world and in Jerusalem who has prohibited the worship of Christ. ( Small anti-christ’s in the past 50 years who implemented Vatican II changes or say Communist dictators sure but they were not the BIG Anti-Christ.) We know Cardinal Manning talked about the Mass being prevented in the “The Pope & the Anti-Christ” and we know from Daniel 11: [31] And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall defile the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the continual sacrifice, and they shall place there the abomination unto desolation.”
Also this 1582 DR commentary does not say there will be NO Priests & NO Bishops left during the Reign of Anti-Christ. Nor in original Douay-Rheims does it say that Apostolic succession will cease. More below:
Annotations The Gospel of St. Mark- Chapter 13 (1582)
Calvinism tendeth to the abomination of desolation. Verse 14. The abomination of desolation.] No heresy doth so properly and purposely tend to this
abomination of desolation which by Antichrist shall be achieved, as this Calvinism: which taketh away
with other Sacraments and external worship of God, the very sacrifice of Christ’s Body and Blood.
Which being taken away (as St. Cyprian saith) no religion can remain.
Verse 4 Most ancient writers expound this of the Temple in Jerusalem, which they
think Antichrist shall build up again, as being of the Jews stock, and to be acknowledge of that
obstinate people (according to our Saviour’s prophecy of John 1) for their expected and promised
Messias. Iren. li. 5 in fine.; Hyppoly. de consum. mundi.; Cyril Hieros. Catech. 15 Author pop. imp. ho.
Antichrist shall suffer no worship or adoration, but of
himself only, therefore the Pope cannot be Antichrist.
Dan. 6. In what temple
Antichrist shall sit.
49) in Matt. See St. Jerome in 11 Dan.; Grego. li. 31. Moral. c. 11. Not that he shall suffer them to
worship God by their old manner of sacrifices, (all which he will either abolish, or convert to the only
adoration of himself: though at the first to apply himself to the Jews, he may perhaps be circumcised
and keep some apart of the law) for it is here said that he shall sit in the Temple as God. That is, he
shall be adored thereby sacrifice and divine honor, the name and worship of the true God wholly
defaced. And this they think to be the abomination of desolation foretold by Daniel, mentioned by our
Saviour, prefigured and resembled by Antiochus and others, that defaced the worship of the true God
by profanation of that Temple, specially by abrogating the daily sacrifice, which was a figure of the
only sacrifice and continual oblation of Christ’s holy body and blood in the Church, as the abolishing of
that, was a figure of the abolishing of this, which shall be done principally and most universally by
Antichrist himself )as now in part by his forerunners) through out all Nations and Churches (though
then also Mass MY BE HAD IN SECRET, as it is now in nations where the secular force of some Princes
prohibiteth it to be said openly.) [THIS INDICATES IN CARITAS THAT EVEN DURING ANTI-CHRIST ONE MASS MIGHT CONTINUE TO BE SAID AND YOU NEED A REAL PRIEST FOR THIS!]
The 1582 D.R. Commentary Continues: “For although he (anti-Christ) may have his principal seat and honor in the Temple and city of Jerusalem, yet he shall rule over the whole world, and specifically prohibit that principal worship instituted by Christ in his Sacraments, as being the proper Adversary of Christ’s person, name, law, and Church, the profanation and desolation of which Church by taking away the sacrifice of the altar, is the proper abomination of desolation, and the work of Antichrist only.
St. Augustine therefore li. 20 de civit. c. 19 and St. Jerome q. 11 ad Algasiam. do think, that
this sitting of Antichrist in the temple, doth signify his sitting in the Church of Christ, rather than in
Solomon’s temple. Not as though he should be a chief member of the Church of Christ, or a special part
of his body mystical, and be Antichrist and yet withal continuing within the Church of Christ, as the
Heretics feign, to make the Pope Antichrist (whereby they plainly confess and agnise60 that the Pope is
a member of the Church, & in ipso sinu Ecclesia, and in the very bosom of the Church, say they:) for
that is ridiculous, that all Heretics whom St. John calleth Antichrists as his precursors, SHOULD GO OUT OF THE CHURCH, and the great Antichrist himself should be of the Church, and in the Church, and continue in the same. And yet to them that make the whole Church in revolt from God, this is no absurdity. But the truth is, that this Antichristian revolt here spoken of, is from the Catholic Church: and Antichrist, if he ever were of or in the Church, SHALL BE AN APOSTATE AND A RENEGAT OUT OF THE CHURCH, and he shall usurp upon it by tyranny, and by challenging worship, religion, and government thereof, so that himself shall be adored in all the Churches of the world which he list to leave standing for his honor. And this is to sit in the temple or *against the Temple of God, as some interpret. If any Pope did ever this, or shalldo, then let the Adversaries call him Antichrist.
ANNOTATIONS
Chapter 2 of the book of the Apocalypse
5. Will move. ] Note that the cause why God taketh the truth from certain countries, and
removeth their Bishops or Churches into captivity or desolation, is the sin of the Prelates and people.
And that is the cause (no doubt) that Christ hath taken away our golden candlestick, that is, our Church in England. God grant us to remember our fall, to do penance and the former works of charity which our first Bishops and Church were notable and renowned for.
Then finally Catholic Commentary on Apoc. 11:1-2, Haydock version of the Douay-Rheims Bible:
“The churches consecrated to the true God, are so much diminished in number, that they are represented by St. John as one church; its ministers officiate at one altar; and all the true faithful are so few, with respect to the bulk of mankind, that the evangelist sees them assembled in one temple, to pay their adorations to the Most High. – Pastorini.”The Douay-Rheims New Testament with a Catholic Commentary, by Rev. Leo Haydock, Monrovia, CA: Catholic Treasures, 1991, p. 1640. So some worship looks like it squeaks by even with the anti-Christ but for virtually 99 percent of the world it is squelched. When Christ talked to the original Apostles he was also talking to their successors and he said that he would not leave us orphans so I believe when Christ returns there will be a few priests and or Bishops left.
In Caritas, When you criticize people do it as the name you chose implies. I think that what “Tom A” said, here “The worst evils are usually done by good men on the wrong side.” was his way of paraphrasing this : In a remarkable sermon preached at Pentecost, 1861, in the London
Oratory, Father Frederick Faber said:
“We must remember that if all the manifestly good men were on one side and all the manifestly bad men were on the other, there would be no danger of anyone, least of all the elect, being deceived by lying wonders. It is the good men, once good, we must hope good still, who are to do the work of Anti-Christ and so sadly to crucify the Lord afresh …Bear in mind this feature of the last days, that this deceitfulness arise
from good men being on the wrong side.”
Hello James,
Please see the last few paragraphs of St. John’s Gospel. Also, St. John appeared at Knock wearing the Bishop’s Mitre, which was a highly unusual depiction, along with the presence of the “Lamb of God” on the Altar (connection to the Apocalypse also). The apparition took place during the Crowning of Our Lady of LaSalette, and I believe they were oriented in that direction, as well.
There is a series on Knock on the (heretical) Tradition in Action website.
May God bless and keep you.
Marie,
This HAS happened – all of it:
“…that all Heretics whom St. John calleth Antichrists as his precursors, SHOULD GO OUT OF THE CHURCH, and the great Antichrist himself should be of the Church, and in the Church, and continue in the same. And yet to them that make the whole Church in revolt from God, this is no absurdity. But the truth is, that this Antichristian revolt here spoken of, IS FROM the Catholic Church: and Antichrist, if he ever were of or in the Church, SHALL BE AN APOSTATE AND A RENEGAT >>OUT<>>Antichrist<<<."
I believe and know in my heart that not only have there been valid and licit Masses occuring on the earth since Oct 1958, I believe that there still is, AT LEAST, ONE.
That being said, THERE IS NO MAN PUBLICLY CLAIMING TO BE BISHOP OR PRIEST TODAY WHO HAS JURISDICTION, BECAUSE WE HAVE NO POPE. The public worship of God in the Mass has ceased and the (public) Sacrifice has failed as prophesied – how? Because for one we have no Pope to provide for Bishops and Jurisdiction. We ARE at the end of time, there will be no restoration because in my opinion, we missed that proverbial boat when it came to the unheeded and urgent requests of Our Lady of Fatima. The Holy Virgin TRIED to delay the time of Antichrist and thus save perhaps countless souls. Sr. Lucia stated herself in her final interview in 1957 that she understood these to be the last days, and that the Blessed Mother made that known to her, and how and why. She stated ***the chastisement*** was IMMINENT, and 10 months to the DAY later we had the Conclave signal something was VERY wrong when there was white smoke and then black (impossible for there to be an error). I believe that perhaps that was a sign for those who would understand because that's actually how "they" operate – the time had come and they had their prize: "the Chair of Peter" along with all those throngs of souls who love not the Truth (2 Thess Ch. 2).
Those attached too much to their lives here on the wretched earth simply CANNOT ACCEPT THIS REALITY AS IT IS, and without God's Grace they can't see the forest through the trees, try as they may. With itching ears they follow their BLIND GUIDES into the pit of hell.
If nothing else, seek the Truth on Jurisdiction like your eternity depends on it – because it DOES. Epikiea cannot be invoked for anything touching on the Sacraments. Supplied Jurisdiction under these circumstances is a HUGE LIE!
Dear All:
I am too tired now to attempt to read the comments from the last day and two, let alone digest them. Yet, please accept two questions from me:
1. The Antichrist. Doesn’t 1 John 4:3 state (present tense at the time of writing) that he “is” already in the world? So… was he already present when John took the pen, or not?
2. Illicit vs. invalid, licit vs. valid. I don’t quite know the canonical definition of these terms, letl alone the historical context — I only know their everyday meaning. Sorry. So, I wonder: If something is valid but not licit, it doesn’t exist, .. or not? In particular: confession and the Eucharist in an “illicit” congregation. Take a sedevacantist priest (e.g., one of the nine whom the SSPX left behind some decades ago). Does the transubstantiation happen in his hands, or not? Will God forgive sins if confessed to/through him, or not?
Thank you for your answers, in advance.
ps.
Dear IC, please save your declarations of damnation at this time, please! Your announcements of perdition are a major obstacle to me. It is hard to find the logical arguments among them, the ones that may help my faith. I know I am a wretch — you don’t have to repeat it again, please.
Seeker,
I also do not read all comments. Accidentally I read yours and let me answer your questions the best I can in short manner. Forgive me if you are not satisfied, I answer them without reading whole context.
1. The Antichrist. Doesn’t 1 John 4:3 state (present tense at the time of writing) that he “is” already in the world? So… was he already present when John took the pen, or not?
Yes. His power have grown lately.
2. Illicit vs. invalid, licit vs. valid. I don’t quite know the canonical definition of these terms, letl alone the historical context — I only know their everyday meaning. Sorry. So, I wonder: If something is valid but not licit, it doesn’t exist, .. or not? In particular: confession and the Eucharist in an “illicit” congregation.
There is no ‘canonical definition’ for those words although The Canon Law defines what is licit.
Let’s take example from everyday life. Shoplifting is forbidden by law. If somebody steels from a store he breaks the law, his action is illicit. Yet if he took somebody’s property and he has it in his possession – his action was real, was valid.
You can think about ‘illicit’ as ‘forbidden by law’, and about ‘valid’ as ‘really happened’.
Other example: some think that consecration in NO Mass is valid (it really happens) but is illicit (the Church forbids consecrations outside approved liturgy and NO is not approved by the Church). So they say, sacrament is valid but illicit. You are forbidden (if you are Catholic) to participate in illicit liturgies. The same goes with orthodox liturgies – they are valid but you are forbidden to fulfill Sunday obligation in Orthodox church.
Hope this helps.
In Caritas you are WRONG about Apostolic Succession and the Papacy. Even though the Mass will virtually cease during the 3 & 1/2 year reign of Anti-Christ you misapply this to Apostolic Succession which will continue till Christ’s second coming This is what Vatican I says here:
Pius IX infallibly taught in Vatican I
The eternal shepherd and guardian of our souls [37] ,in order to render permanent the saving work of redemption, determined to build a church in which,as in the house of the living God, all the faithful should be linked by the bond of onefaith and charity. 3.So then,just as he sent apostles, whom he chose out of the world [39] , even as he had been sent by the Father [40], in like manner it was his will that in HIS CHURCH THERE SHOULD BE SHEPERDS AND TEACHERS until the end of time. 4.In order, then, that the episcopal office should be one and undivided and that, by the union of the clergy, the whole multitude of believers should be held together in the unity of faith and communion, he set blessed Peter over the rest of the apostles and instituted in him the permanent principle of both unities and THEIR VISIBLE FOUNDATION. “
So guess what “In Caritas” history shows that you don’t have to have a pope every minute in order for the Church to exist as a VISIBLE FOUNDATION or for a future pope to be elected if one dies or even if a series of frauds are elected!
What you are doing is attempting to lead others into falsehood when as you add your solemn “Amen” attempting to give your false words more importance when the document “Ad Apostolorum Principis” does NOT say what you claim as you jab: ““’ history’, plays no specific role whatsoever, as to suggest otherwise affronts the Magisterium as Authoritatively written by Pope Pius XII in his Encyclical, “Ad Apostolorum Principis”, where he SPECIFICALLY TEACHES THAT THE CHURCH cannot assent to the historical realities of Papal Authoritative Governance, as the consequence of this is the pain of Hell, rather, the Church must submit to the active Authoritative Governance of Blessed Peter in his Successors when and as they invoke the Gift of the Keys to bind and loose. Amen. To deny this is simply to deny the Catholic Faith as an heretic or heathen. Amen.”
In Ad Apostolorum Principis (Pius XII 1958) https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12apost.htm and Pius XII actually repeats “historical reality” when he assents to PAST PAPAL statements from the Council of Florence when Pius XII said “We renew the definition of the Ecumenical Council of Florence, by virtue of which all the faithful must believe that ‘the Holy Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold primacy over the whole world, and the Roman Pontiff himself is the Successor of the blessed Peter and continues to be the true Vicar of Christ and head of the whole Church, the father and teacher of all Christians, and to him is the blessed Peter our Lord Jesus Christ committed the full power of caring for, ruling and governing the Universal Church….’ ”
Apostolic Succession is NOT dead since 1958 because your false interpretation of Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis of Pius XII (December 8, 1945) as I will prove below. The papacy and apostolic succession does NOT die due to a long interregnum be it over 40 years as was demonstrated by Fr. O’Reilly SJ. IT IS FOR YOU TO PROVE OTHERWISE AND YOUR KEY STROKES HAVE NOT!
As the Dec. 1945 document you misinterpret says “The OFFICES of the Camerlengo of the Holy Roman Church and the Grand Penitentiary do not cease at the DEATH of the Pontiff” and guess what “in Caritas” neither does YOUR MISINTERPRETATION OF THIS 1945 document prove that a future true pope can not be elected just because the ones in 1958 were hoodwinked by Masons in the Conclave. YOU HAVE THIS INTERPRETATION SO YOU CAN STAY HOME AND NOT FIND A MASS OR LISTEN TO PRIESTS OR BISHOPS THAT ARE TRUE CATHOLICS EVEN THOUGH THERE IS NO CURRENT POPE. THIS has happened before in the Catholic Church during the Great Western Schism it is just that this interregnum has lasted much longer. For over 40 years most people did not know who the true pope was and for over two years two men claimed to be pope when there was NONE. from 1415-1417.
NOR does this document preclude the existence of the successors of the Apostles despite your LEGALISTIC INTERPRETATION OF IT. So you still have not proved where Pius XII said in Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis that there is ever a possibility of the death of Apostolic Succession before Christ returns or that PIUS XII’s rules implied you can NOT have a future Pope because of a horrible cataclysm. History shows the cataclysm was namely that Cardinal bird brains in 1958 were coerced to elect Roncalli and forced Siri to step down because they were threatened by Masons/Communist fellow electors in the Conclave who said perhaps a nuclear war or perhaps the murder of Siri’s family would occur if Siri accepted.
And in section 20 of Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis it states “the office and jurisdiction of the Cardinal Vicar in the City do not expire at the death of the Pontiff.”
“21 office and power of the Envoys, Nuncios, and Apostolic Delegates do not cease while the See is vacant.”
And “In Caritas” when you claim of others that they are not of the Church and they are of the devil and so forth they could very well accuse you of the same thing. the Papal government is put on hold until a true pope is elected but that does not mean apostolic succession is dead.
Here is more proof for you by Pre Vatican II theologians that Apostolic Succession and the Papacy and Apostolic Succession will continue till the end of time. All of these offices can be restored after the Great Chastisement.
A COLLEGE OF BISHOPS WILL SURIVE TILL THE END OF TIME
“[T]he present proposition does not assert that each single bishop is the successor of an individual apostle, but rather that the apostolic college was succeeded by the college of bishops or the episcopate.” (Christ’s Church, Vol. II, 1957, Monsignor Van Noort)
“‘He (Christ) wishes that there should be pastors and teachers in His Church to the end of the time.’ These pastors and teachers are the bishops, the successors of the Apostles.” (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ott, citing Vatican Council I)
“[I]t was Christ’s will that the apostolic college should continue forever, in such a way that there will always be in the Church a body of men invested with that threefold power which the apostles enjoyed. This thesis is a dogma of faith, as we know, e.g., from the Council of Trent, Sess. 23, Ch. 4 (DB 960).” (Christ’s Church, Vol. II, 1957, Monsignor Van Noort)
This one below “In Caritas” shows that the mind of the last true Pope XII who admitted that literally St. Peter’s Basilica could blow up (and he might be in it) yet the Papacy and the “Church of Rome” would continue independent of the historic city itself and I really don ‘t think he would say like you claim that somehow what he said in Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis would ever preclude a real pope from ever being elected whether a nuclear bomb would blow up a whole college of cardinals or that a whole college of Cardinals who would defect from the faith and elect a false pope would necessarily preclude a true pope after even 70 years from being elected or would make the successors of the Apostles cease. He talks about a “Pope being alive at that time” and our Lady of Fatima also talks about a Pope consecrating Russia with all the Bishops of the world also. (I know Pius XII did that but he didn’t do it with all the Bishops of the World.)
**************Allocution given on 30 January 1949, Pius XII said to the pupils of the secondary schools of Rome: “If there should ever come a day – We say this as a matter of pure hypothesis – when the physical reality of Rome were to crumble; if ever this Vatican Basilica, the symbol of the one, invincible, and victorious Catholic Church, were to bury beneath its ruins the historical treasures and the sacred tombs it enshrines, even then the Church would not, by that fact, be overthrown or undermined; the promise of Christ to Peter would always remain true, the Papacy would continue unchanged, as well as the one, indestructible Church founded on the Pope alive at that time. Thus it is: Rome the Eternal in the supernatural and Christian sense, is superior to the Rome of history. Her supernatural and eternal truth are superior to and independent of the historic City. Its nature and its truth do not depend on it.” Allocution to Roman students, January 30, 1949 (as cited in Papal Teachings: The Church, Selected and Arranged by the Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, trans. Mother E. O’Gorman [Boston: Daughters of St. Paul, 1962 by Mother E. O’Gorman], p. 641 see World Justice – Volume 3 – Page 53 at https://books.google.com/books?id=Hf7vAAAAMAAJ 1962 – Snippet view also see Pius XII, Discorsi e Radiomessaggi (Rome: Tip.Poliglotta Vaticana, 1950),Vol. X, p. 358-9.
How could we get a POPE if Rome were destroyed spiritually or physically due to War or Apostasy? Bellarmine & Pius XII tell us below:
Bellarmine’s Controversies, De clericis, bk. I, ch. 10. (Translated by James Larrabee, with comments)
Chapter 10.
Eighth Proposition.
If there were no papal constitution on the election of the Supreme Pontiff; or if by some chance all the electors designated by law, that is, all the Cardinals, perished simultaneously, the right of election would pertain to the neighboring bishops and the Roman clergy, but with some dependence on a general council of bishops.
In this proposition, there does not appear to be universal agreement. Some think that, exclusive of positive law, the right of election would devolve on a Council of Bishops, as Cajetan, tract. De Potestate Papae & Concilii, cap. 13 & 21 & Francis Victoria, relect. 2. quest. 2. De potestate Ecclesiae. Others, as Sylvester relates s.v. Excommunicatio, 9. sec. 3, teach that in that case the right of election pertains to the Roman clergy. But these two opinions can be reconciled. Without a doubt, the primary authority of election in that case pertains to a Council of Bishops; since, when the Pontiff dies, there is no higher authority in the Church than that of a general Council: and if the Pontiff were not the Bishop of Rome, or any other particular place, but only the general Pastor of the whole Church, it would pertain to the Bishops either to elect his successor, or to designate the electors: nevertheless, after the Pontificate of the world was joined to the bishopric of the City [posteaquam unitus est Pontificatus orbis Episcopatui Urbis], the immediate authority of electing in that case would have to be permitted by the bishops of the whole world to the neighboring bishops, and to the clerics of the Roman Church, which is proved in two ways.
First, because the right of election was transferred from all the neighboring bishops and the Roman clergy to the Cardinals, who are a certain part of the bishops and clergy of the Roman Church; therefore, when the Cardinals are lacking, the right of election ought to return to all the bishops and clergy of the Roman Church.
Second, because this is a most ancient custom (as we showed above from Cyprian), that the neighboring bishops, in the presence of the clergy, should elect both the Bishop of Rome and others also. And it is unheard of that the Bishops or Archbishops of the whole world should meet for the election of the Supreme Pontiff, except in a case where it is doubtful who should be the legitimate electors. For this doubt ought to be resolved by a general Council, as was done in the Council of Constance. [This is the entire text of chap. 10.]
“Should the college of cardinals ever become extinct, the duty of choosing a supreme pastor would fall, not on the bishops assembled in council, but upon the remaining Roman clergy. At the time of the Council of Trent, Pius IV thinking it possible that in the event of his death the council might lay some claim to the right, insisted on this point in a consistorial allocution.” (Papal Elections, Catholic Encyclopedia, 1911) Rome (In Caritas the College of Cardinals can also become extinct do to heresy as Pope Paul IV implied that they could elect a false pope and that it would be null and void.)
And in the truly extraordinary case where the above is not possible, the right to elect falls upon the whole Church see below:
Cajetan wrote: “In case of doubt, however (e.g. when it is unknown if someone be a true cardinal or when the pope is dead or uncertain, as seems to have happened at the time of the Great Schism which began under Urban VI), it is to be affirmed that the power to apply the papacy to a person (the due requirements having been complied with) resides in THE CHUR H OF GOD. And then by way of devolution it is seen that this power descends to the universal Church, SINCE THE ELECTORS DETERMINED BY THE POPE DO NOT EXIST .” (Cajetan, Tract.1 de auctoritate Papae et Concilii, c.13). So “In Caritas” is Uban VI and Cajetan heretics? These statements come from the Church NOT me.
So you are wrong “In Caritas” on this point of the possibility of the election of a true future Pope and on the Continuation of Apostolic Succession till the end of time.
The Pillar and Ground of the Truth page 173:
“Those who invent doctrines unheard of before are NOT the successors of the Apostles. Novelty and error are children of the same father-the father of lies. Those who have lost the line of valid ministers leading back to apostolic times cannot plead the possession of Apostolicity. Where there is no ordination, no priesthood, no AUTHORITY, no POWER, Apostolicity is out of the question. >>Even if valid orders exist, WHERE JURISDICTION IS LACKING THERE IS NO REAL APOSTOLICITY.<< Schism, as well as heresy, destroys apostolic succession.”
So “A Simple Beggar” then do you believe that because we have NO Pope we have NO valid and licit sacrifice of the Holy Mass which gives us the Blessed Sacrament?? What about all the other interregnum’s we have had in the history of the Catholic church that covered days, months and years in the past? Were there real sacrifices of the Mass going on then when there was NO Pope? Didn’t Epikiea cover that back then when there was no valid Pope from 1415-1417 which was just one example from many? Why not now? What Church documents can you tell me to show me what you know to be true?
The NO Pope implication of yours= NO Sacraments statement here: “If nothing else, seek the Truth on Jurisdiction like your eternity depends on it – because it DOES. Epikiea cannot be invoked for anything touching on the Sacraments. Supplied Jurisdiction under these circumstances is a HUGE LIE!
But then you seem to be contradicting yourself here when you state “I believe and know in my heart that not only have there been valid and licit Masses occuring on the earth since Oct 1958, I believe that there still is, AT LEAST, ONE.”
So which is it “A Simple Beggar” are we having at least one Valid and licit “Masses” as you said or NONE because Epikeia does not cover sacraments in the case of “Supplied Jurisdiction under these circumstances”. Can you tell me where Valid and licit Masses are occurring even though you said it is a Huge Lie to believe it! I think that your statements are contradictory. Can you explain what you mean?
Oh’ and yet again Marie Tageye,
You poor miserable fool, it has nothing to do with poor, miserable me and my opinion of the loss of Apostolic Succession. The more you write, the more clear is the objective understanding that you simply cannot hold the divine and Catholic Faith, you poor soul. Your profound error collapses under its own weight, as again in the first paragraph of your screed, written as platitudes of gibberish. Save yourself the keystrokes. It is the, “Papal Election Law”, as contained within the Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius XII, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, circa 1945, which infallibly as Authoritatively proclaims, that Apostolic Succession was forever lost on Oct. 27, 1958, 18 days after the death of the last and final true Vicar of Christ in this world. Amen. Alleluia. Deny this Marie Tageye and you simply deny the whole as entire Catholic Faith, deFide. Amen. Alleluia. You must know these simple truths to actually be, “Catholic”, as to actually hold the infinitely precious Gift of the divine and Catholic Faith. In caritas.
And again Marie Tageye,
Pope Leo XIII infallibly taught in, “Satis Cognitum”, that those who are outside Holy Mother Church simply cannot understand the simple teaching of the Magisterium, as they are as sterile and worthless sand. You evidence this perfectly as you cannot even understand the context of this statement of the Vatican Council, as copied now from what you wrote above:
“in like manner it was his will that in HIS CHURCH THERE SHOULD BE SHEPERDS AND TEACHERS until the end of time.”
Indeed, it is Almighty God’s active Will and of course, “that in His Church there should (not shall or will) be shepherds and teachers until the end of time.”
Loss of Apostolic Succession in no way contradicts what the Vatican Council Authoritatively taught, as the wolves in Sheep’s clothing betrayed The Christ just as the Iscariot before them. Was it God’s Will that the Iscariot betray Him and send Him to Calvary, Marie Tageye? Almighty God created His miserable human creatures to be perfectly free, to choose Him and His Will or reject Him and His active Will. And your point??? In caritas.
Short on time and energy, but for you, Marie, briefly:
First, and again:
Father Lawrence Joseph Riley, A.B., S.T.L., wrote the book: The History, Nature, and use of Epikeia in Moral Theology. Copyright 1948, The Catholic University of America Press, INC. Imprimatur: + Richardus Jacobus Cushing. D.D., 7 May, 1948.
Father Riley informs us on page 344: “In short, it may be concluded that in regard to matters which touch the essence of the SACRAMENTS, the use of Epikeia is ALWAYS EXCLUDED.”
****Father Riley informs us on page 347: “In regard to the essence of these Sacraments, (Holy Orders and Matrimony) what has been explained above of all the Sacraments is applicable to them – viz., that EPIKEIA IS NEVER LICIT.” ****
Next:
This is not an interregnum; 61 years and counting and no valid Conclave is about the business of electing a Pope.
I take it that you partake in “Sede” sect sacraments. Therefore, your “bishops” originate from either the Lefebvre or Thuc lines, or even perhaps the Old Catholics. You can argue “validity”, as does Tom A, all the day long; I no longer would even be caught dead receiving such sacraments from such thieves and robbers. Both men were apostates and publicly so; as such, they were not Catholic and all of their actions were null and void.
Lastly:
When I speak of Masses being said on the face of the earth at this time, if there are any at this late point, I’m speaking of PRIVATE Masses, as in offered IN PRIVATE, by actual bishops and priests from the time of Pope Pius XII who, by the Grace of God, NEVER apostasized or fell into any heresy, or for one moment assented to John XXIII, nor went off and created their own sect and novel rules. These would be men who went underground, recognizing the “signs of the times”. It is a fact that some did just that, and nothing would prevent them from being able to offer Mass privately. What you ask has nothing to do with Epikeia.
ASB, looks like Marie is giving you and IC a run for your money. Do you recognize her technique? You should, it the same as yours. Cite magisterial documents ad nauseam and draw desired conclusion. The only difference is that Marie does not issue condemnations and anathemas because she knows shes lacks the authority. Which is quite ironic since your argument hinges on loss of papal authority yet you act as if it somehow landed in your lap.
TOM a–Looks like Marie is fighting fire with fire–without being obnoxious. This means she is now a full-fledged member of the “Miscreant fool on the path to Hell club.” Good for you, Marie. Welcome aboard. At this moment, IC is warming up his poor blistered fingers. No need to remind me that I am a Miscreant non-Catholic fool. You’ve made your point. Now can you move on??
Oh’ and yet again you miscreant fool as Marie Tageye,
What do you NOT UNDERSTAND about, WE ARE NOT NOR HAVE WE BEEN, IN INTERREGNUM, since Oct. 27, 1958, as Authoritatively taught, with the full Apostolic Power of the keys to bind and loose, of Pope Pius XII in his Apostolic Constitution, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, Dec, 1945? You cannot simply say with your perfectly miserable fiat of opinion that there is, “error in interpretation”, of this Authoritative teaching, as there is in, reality as it is, NO INTERPRETATION TO BE MADE, rather a SIMPLE APPLICATION of precisely what the Vicar of Christ commanded with his full Apostolic Authority to do so. Point out the, “error”, you claim there to be, you now belligerent fool. The fact that you remain blind to this application simply speaks as res ipsa loquitur, that you simply CANNOT HOLD IN YOUR WILL, the divine and Catholic Faith, as our Blessed Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ commanded, “You WILL KNOW THEM by their fruits.” Your fruit is abysmal error in understanding. Pope Leo XIII infallibly taught in, “Satis Cognitum”, as you’ve been already warned, that those outside the Holy Catholic Church will simply not understand the simple Teaching and Governing of the divine Magisterium, as their intellects are blocked by God. If you deny this, you deny the entire Catholic Faith as that is Catholic teaching, deFide. Amen. Alleluia. Save your soul, you miscreant fool. In caritas.
The non-Catholic, neo-pagan adherent and proponent of the, religion of man, yet spews his contradiction, and again ad nauseum. You remain on your sure as certain path to your own personal eternity with your Prince, Tom A, as you are Lucifer’s slave, as you so clearly demonstrate over and again, that you hate Jesus the Christ, as you reject and remain perfectly blind to divine Magisterial Truth. You have been warned by Pope Leo XIII in, “Satis Cognitum”, that those who are OUTSIDE the Catholic Church, WILL BE BLIND to the SIMPLE MAGISTERIAL TEACHING AND GOVERNANCE as Truth Himself. Amen. Alleluia. Save your rotting as putrid soul. In caritas.
And again….,.my…….2……cents,
Another perfectly intellectively blind comment by a non-Catholic, neo-pagan, fool, on his way to Hell, outside the Holy Church where no salvation is to be found, deFide. Marie is as confused and darkened as you are, 2cents, but seems to at least care to seek the Truth, you imbecilic, pseudo-intellectual moron. Save your putrid soul. In caritas.
Thank you, M.C.
And now a follow-up question on the question more important to me: am I allowed to receive sacraments from one of the nine (personally)?
Seeker, there isn’t a soul in this combox who has the authority to answer your question. Do your own research and remember that everyone else only has an opinion.
Dear In caritas,
Here is my point – it is very simple if in fact there is going to be “Shepherds and teachers until the end of time” in the Church then they are going to be visible and it for you and all of us to find them. So your position is that all the Shepherds (priests and Bishops) lost Apostolic Succession and it can NEVER RETURN because of the Apostasy in 1958 when Roncalli was elected according to your false opinion in which you probably take “should be” to mean the possibility that there will NOT even be one or two true Shepherds (as Should does not mean Will) as your assessment of this situation because you see the Apostasy but you don’t see in your opinion any way to get true Shepherds on earth.
I agree with you that there was and is Judas Iscariot wolves in sheep’s clothing and right now they outnumber the true Shepherds but as there was St. John and the blessed mother at the foot of the Cross when Christ was dying so to there must be a true apostles with the Blessed mother who symbolizes the Church and goes out into the dessert when the end times comes, during the reign of anti-Christ who rules the world for 3 and 1/2 years. Have you ever read “Lord of World?” I know it is a fictional book that was written by Msgr Benson but that book and all the other “theological books written” in the past 500 years which speak of the end times do NOT speak of apostolic succession ending and that there will be no priests and or Bishops left on the face of the earth as you promote “infallibly”. You are your own theologian and what you say flies false in the face of what clerics like Fr. Herman Kramer say and St. Robert Bellarmine say, and Fr. Sylvester Berry say. Yours is a pessimistic view which does account even for a possibility of the carrying on of Christ’s Order of Melchizedek priesthood on the face of the earth. I have already proven that the Douay- Reims Original and Haydock Bible have taught that even the Mass will be taken away but there will still be at least on Altar where there is a sacrifice done in secret.
You can NOT REFUTE MY POINT-There are NO early Church fathers or Saints or Doctors of the Church who say that Apostolic Succession is wiped out when the anti-Christ comes or the “Great Apostasy”, nor ARE THERE ANY POPES WHO SAY APOSTOLIC SUCCESION CEASES any more than this happened when there was NO Pope for 2 and one half years during the Great Western Schism and IN THOSE 40 years most people followed anti-Popes and were NOT excommunicated by this because they were genuinely confused (although to my knowledge there was no blatant heresy being taught but plenty of Schism).
You are a pessimist – give me one Church father or Saint who said that apostolic Succession would cease during the Great Apostasy or the End times?
Christ promised us that he would NOT leave us orphans and just because the Shepherd is struck meaning the Pope- it doesn’t mean that God will not provide us with a few St. John’s. I know you will probably say “he wasn’t installed yet when that happened” but give me some Early Church fathers that say that Apostolic Succession would be extinguished before the end of time??????? I already gave you Nicholas of Flu and even Pope Pius XII, Bellarmine and you have no real arguments to support your exaggerated pessimistic claim. You claim all of the Apostolic successors betray Christ and yet you can NOT name one Saint or Pope who said what you say.
Tom,
No one has given anyone “a run for their money”. I couldn’t possibly care any less what you or the likes of Marie think. I only respond to assist others who actually want and seek the Truth.
The Papacy was usurped and a false church set up; here we have the Abomination of Desolation.
The Holy Sacrifice of the Altar was removed from all of the Catholic Churches of the world and replaced with a Protestantized service by Antichrist.
Per holy Scriptures, the Abomination of Desolation lasts unto the END.
Without a Pope there is no jurisdiction to be had by any Bishops or priests despite the actions of those who take it upon themselves to disobey the Perpetual Magisterium, claiming “supplied jurisdiction” when it cannot be applied to anything touching on the Sacraments – as proven. All flows from the Pope. This is clear and how the Sacrifice fails (how else???)
All of the above in addition to the state of the world and society, the implementation of frightening technologies and the restlessness of nature should speak to us of the lateness of the hour – the “signs of the times”. Add to this the last public words and warnings of Sr. Lucia in 1957, 10 months prior to the false Conclave and if you still can’t see then you are truly BLINDED.
Your Sacraments are DOUBTFUL, and the Church teaches that doubtful Sacraments are NO Sacraments. You are the one claiming “opinions” when in fact that’s all that YOU hold. I’ll take my money and run with it WITH Christ and avoid them at ALL COSTS. God cannot and will not hold that against ANYONE, but He will damn those found doing their OWN will when He returns, in the not-to-distant future.
Dear Seeker,
We cannot receive doubtful Sacraments including those Sacraments from those wolves who have not been SENT. This is not an opinion but the teaching of the Church. We cannot base any of our actions on mere opinions; our eternal destiny is at stake.
Dear Marie,
You forgot an important word: there SHOULD be…
Dear Marie,
Do you know from whence your shepherds come? We must know this, you know. Did they issue forth from Lefebvre or Thuc? (Judases) Were any of your priests formerly in the Novus Ordo sect? I sincerely ask because you really need to start there – with the basics.
As an aside, St. John was to REMAIN (per the end of his Gospel) and so it’s an interesting thought that you bring up about him having been the ONE apostle standing at the foot of the Cross.
In Caritas, I actually get a big kick out of your ad hominem attacks although I think they are not given in the spirit of charity but in pride and the folks you hurl them at might be very hurt by them ( I wouldn’t be as I used to have a mean older brother and I am used to it and I love him. I don’t think he is a happy person either.). I do appreciate much of the truth of what you say but there is also things you say which only come from yourself. This is a very human thing to do and we all do it. We are NOT angelic in our nature and I sure know you are not when you call people “lucifer” and what sounded to me like a pretty good imitation Golding’s “Lord of the Flies” comment “ dressed as a pig in lipstick “ hurled at Arthur McGowan. Don Rickles doesn’t have anything on you! Have you ever thought of going into show business? The Golden Globes might hire you for about 2 seconds.
Seriously though other people though may not have been toughened up by an older brother as I was and might find they don’t like Don Rickles type humor. I actually like you because I think I know in many waysyou’re your profuse writing that you could care less if people like you -you just want God to say to you when you die “come into my kingdom my good and faithful servant” I think that this is what is called for to not be a respecter of man but of God and I guess that is your Doberman Pinscher style”.
So please In Caritas Question A) I am asking you sincerely to give me one Church father or Pope that said that Apostolic Succession is ceased before the end of time?
I am sincerely asking you for this Church document or early Church father that says this. If this is a material heresy to believe that there will be at least two priests and or Bishops who will be saying a Mass in perhaps a cave in Syria or a hotel basement in Cleveland and that there will be real Catholics who attend it and not just a priest in a closet at the end of time I want to know . So then give me this teaching that I never heard of which was delivered on your doorstep for which your key strokes are so eager to inform us all. I do not believe that that I am trying to beat a dead horse. If your view really is the objective truth and remember that I did stand corrected on one point you made before I genuinely want to know why your “home alone position is the correct one.” To me “A Simple Beggar” seemed to be contradicting himself when he said there is no priest who could say the Mass when epikeia doesn’t cover a priest without jurisdiction from a Pope but then he went on and said that he could “privately” say Mass and quoted Riley and some how you and him don’t think right now is an interregnum or public priests- I guess and you are so sure that we are NEVER going to get a true pope or more true priests. Yet neither of you could give an answer that there have been times in the Church with NO pope and priests DID give out the sacraments publically- I guess according to him “there was a time limit clause that was dropped off at his doorstep” and some how Fr. Riley would side with him if he lived today but it would be inconceivable to him that perhaps he was misapplying what Fr. Riley said.
I got a real chuckle out of “my2cents” and “Tom A” s comebacks and as I am new to posting on this forum can you tell me if you both hold to the sede vantist position? You seem to be criticizing the practice of “posting Church documents” to “bolster a point” perhaps you think I misapply it. But I think that the real point is to try to find out what is the truth about what is really going on, what we are to believe about it and what we are to do about it to save our souls and the souls of those around us especially our children in this age of apostasy. In order to do this we must properly apply Church documents, scripture and follow the teachings of true popes and the Church’s ordinary magisterium in this time of “The Great Apostasy” as Cardinal Oddi warned us begins at the top. It seems to me that the people looking at this forum understand that fact that we are in a Great Apostasy when so many are clueless.
“Seeker” there have always been small anti-Christs even when St. John was on the Island of Patmos giving us the book of the Apocalypse but it is a fact that the BIG anti-Christ has not “appeared” yet for all the world to see although he will even though some people believe that Paul VI and or even JP II were “the FINAL antichrists”. This is simply not true. St. Pius X believed that the BIG anti-Christ in E Supremi Apostolatus on October 4, 1903 may have already arrived into the world with the current of Apostasy that he saw while he was Pope but that was just anti-Christ spirit preceding him. Interestingly folks that is the Feast of St. Francis and now we have a man Bergoglio who is a small anti-Christ trying to tare down the Bride of Christ and build it up into his man centered image using the name of the Great Saint Francis.
Please In Caritas I am humbly asking you for that Question A information. For over 20 years I have been trying to understand what is going on and I believe that we do languish as the prophet Hosea says “for lack of knowledge”.
Seeker,
am I allowed to receive sacraments from one of the nine (personally)?
I’m nor sure if I understand correctly your question.
You are not allowed to receive sacraments from non-catholics in general. You are also forbidden to receive sacraments that are dubious or illegal.
There are some exceptions. For example you can validly and licitly receive absolution from confession with priest without faculties in situations where your life is in danger. You can not approach the same priest in normal circumstances. In normal situation, if all requirements of confessions are fulfilled, your confessions would be valid but illicit. You commit sin by willingly, knowingly and without extreme necessity confess to such a priest. The same applies to him.
If you ask about SSPX. There is a lot of confusion about this matter flying around. Do your own research. Some say you can not approach them, others – you definitely can. Gather information and make best decision you can without paying attention to what you want.
And remember, I only pass what I learned and what I believe to be true. I do not have any teaching authority, and definitely can be wrong. Confirm all info with more reliable sources.
Dear M.C., thank you.
The background:
I grew up NO and until about 5 (6?) years ago lived my spiritual life there. Since then, I only receive sacraments in traditional Catholic communities — one led by one of the nine priests who were expelled from the SSPX when the SSPX wavered back toward organized Rome. This decision of mine was prompted by that father responding to an inquire of mine with the comment that one takes no chances with sacraments, and the NO sacraments are doubtful. Now, reading some of the comments here I have doubts, different ones, more grievous ones, than before.
As you (this forum) has been a source of much thinking (and consequent spiritual maturation) for me, I wanted to have your opinion. I wish to avoid future sins… if I can.
Thank you, IC, for taking the time to find other more creative adjectives for me. “Miscreant fool” was getting old and boring.
Dear Marie–You are saying many things that I can relate to. All of us here are seeking TRUTH–except for IC who has found TRUTH according to his own thinking. Christ said “I am the TRUTH”. The Catholic Church before V2 no longer exists—but, Christ is still Head of His Church. We are not lost souls if we keep our eye on Our Lord and His Mother. Being called a “pseudo-intellectual moron” by the likes of IC does not hurt me. “Take it from whom it comes and charge it to Ignorance”–Wise Words. Marie, I look forward to your posts. Thank you.
Marie:
I posted this link above and will repeat it again. If you want to understand what ASB & IC are saying, then I would suggest you please read it:
https://www.betrayedcatholics.com/free-content/reference-links/3-the-latin-mass/jurisdiction-lawful-pastors-and-communicatio-in-sacris/
Then you will understand that they are not contradicting themselves.
Dear Marie,
The Trad sects believe that they can consecrate bishops and provide the Sacraments via Supplied Jurisdiction or Epikiea, when it cannot be used when it comes to anything touching on the Sacraments.
A true priest who never apostasized in the first place (one validly and licitly ordained prior to 1959/Pius XII death) COULD say Mass privately, yes, OF course. Jurisdiction is not required for a true priest to offer a private and true Mass. There was no contradiction unless I misstated something or it wasn’t conveyed properly. What I mean is that all those publicly POSING as Catholic priests and Bishops today, from whatever sect, simply do not have jurisdiction and should not be simulating the Sacraments. Whether or not their orders are even valid doesn’t matter one bit.
As I have stated to you, Marie, you need to go back to the very basics first and find out from whence your pastors come. Do they come from a man who publicly apostasized by signing the Vatican II documents (Lefebvre)? Or the other (Thuc) who was also a member of the New Order church of Antichrist? Explain how these men were then, Catholic, and had the power to do or confect anything, because Pope Paul IV instructed otherwise precisely to avoid all that has now happened. Catholics are forbidden to receive doubtful Sacraments, and of COURSE we didn’t learn any of this from the N.O. (Antichrist) Church.
When O when Louie?
ASB, you claim, “Supplied Jurisdiction or Epikiea, when it cannot be used when it comes to anything touching on the Sacraments.” This is simply false. The purpose of Supplied Jurisdiction is to make licit sacraments that are somehow lacking proper formal legality. Such as a priests paperwork for faculties being lost. You keep purposely trying to obfuscate this issue over validity and licitness. I can only assume you keep doing this to deceive the readers. No one has ever said that epikea can fix a faulty sacramental form or matter or intent. And if you were to ever take the time to review all my posts you will never see me advocating to anyone to go to doubtful sacraments not do I ever claim one way or another on the licitness of sede sacraments. I only challeneged your dogmatic approach to the Great Apostasy. You have no more authority to declare anything than I do. If you think those sacraments doubtful, then avoid them.
Marie Tageye, again evidencing that you hold not the divine and Catholic Faith, rather you are simply another adherent of the, “religion of man”, who affronts the holy Magisterium in the opening salvos of your non-Catholic screeds, and thus the likes of your fellow imbecilic, pseudo-intellectual fools, “my2cents” and “Tom A”, cheer you on, as you are identified by them to be a fellow traveler, if you will, as they love to read your profound error, as that is all that they themselves know and identify with, as like dissolves like. Amen. Those on their sure as certain paths to Hell, “love”, the company of the other on that same path, as misery thus, “loving”, its company; outside the Holy Church where there is no salvation to be found, deFide. Amen.
The objective fact that you cannot hold the divine and Catholic Faith speaks and again, as res ipsa loquitur, to the few who actually do, as Jesus the Christ commanded: “You will KNOW THEM by their fruits”, and your fruits are as rotten, poisonous error, which is why the Vatican Council warned the Church that the Charisms of, “truth and never failing faith”, were given to Blessed Peter in his Successors, as to protect the Church from this poisonous food of error. The likes of which you spew now, time and again. Amen. Alleluia. You deny the Authoritative teaching and Governance of, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, period and end. Prove otherwise as you have not, as you cannot demonstrate this from that Apostolic Constitution. Amen. He definitely as Authoritatively taught that the canonically valid Conclave had to meet by the 18th day after the death of the Vicar of Christ, WITHOUT ANY POSSIBILITY OF EXCEPTION, to begin the business of the election of the next Roman Pontiff. This had to occur with whatever number of Cardinals were then present in Rome. PERIOD AND END. If anything was changed regarding his exquisitely pristine and precise orders of business in the election of the next Pontiff, and he specified this as anything added to, subtracted from, or in any way altered, then the Conclave was as, “null and void”. Period and end. You poor miscreant, as pseudo-intellectual fool, who writes in utterly meaningless contrived platitudes, have no capacity to somehow wish this Authority away, as commanded with the full Apostolic Power of this Successor of Blessed Peter. And as you attempt to do this, you DAMN YOUR ETERNAL SOUL. Amen. You deny Pope Pius XII who warns you that you are consequently on your sure and certain path to Hell and he does this in, “Ad Apostolorum Principis”, where he affirms the command of the only as singular Vatican Council, that a true Catholic submits to the Governance and Disciplinary Authority of Blessed Peter in his Successors with the SAME ASSENT OF FAITH, as to his infallible Teaching on the Faith and Morality, denying this assent at the pain of Hell, as he commands. Amen. Save your soul Marie Tageye. To do this you must actually assent to the divine, living, and perpetual Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, which simply IS Jesus the Christ with His Church, unto the Last Day. Amen. Alleluia. Instead you spend your time reading fictional books about the time of Antichrist, who has now already come and gone, as you remain perfectly blind to this, reality as it is, further evidencing the objective reality that you do not, as you cannot, hold the divine and Catholic Faith, the only means to see the Truth. In caritas.
Seeker January 8, 2020
Thank you for background. It’s quite interesting. I heard of course about priest leaving SSPX but have never found time to look at details. From time to time I step on some of them on Youtube.
I can not give you any additional guidance. I don’t know if any canonical actions were taken against those 9 priests. If they just parted from SSPX they status should be similar with exception that they don’t have bishop. I think Bp Williamson fills the void but am not sure.
Don’t pay much attention to this combox. This is cave of Sedevacantists. They call themselves Catholics. Don’t fall for that. Well. maybe they are just lost. Anyway, do not expect strict catholic answers from them. They themselves need help.
All the best.
And again the adherent, as proponent of the religion of man, Tom A, spews his hatred of Jesus the Christ, as objectively evidenced in his hatred of Catholic Truth. Amen.
No Apostolic Succession, NO Jurisdiction to be had in the cosmos Tom A, you belligerent, pseudo-intellectual, jingoistic, imbecile. Amen. Apostolic Succession was lost as a matter deFide, as we are required to give the same assent of Faith to the Governance and Discipline of Blessed Peter in his Successors, as we are to his infallible teaching of the Faith and Morality. The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, as Authoritatively taught by the Vatican Council and affirmed in, “Ad Apostolorum Principis”, must be freely assented to without reservation, and at the pain of eternal Hell, where you are definitively as objectively on your sure and certain path to. Amen. “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, makes the pristine reality of the permanent loss of Apostolic Succession, which occurred deFide, on Oct. 27, 1958 perfectly clear to a 10 year old who actually holds the divine and Catholic Faith, freely in his will as to save his soul. Amen. “Satis Cognitum”, Authoritatively as infallibly teaches the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium to be unchanging and unending, as divine and living, remaining with the Church unto the Last Day. Amen. Alleluia. You continually mock and deny this teaching at the pain of Hell for your putrid soul. Amen. Only Almighty God can save you Tom A. In caritas.
Tom I don’t “claim” anything and if I do I say it’s my opinion. And to say that I’m out to deceive is rash judgment for which God removes Grace. I am against all deception and lies I avoid even telling a white lie. I don’t care about validity vs licitness because even if orders are valid, if they are illicit then one commits Sacrilege by receiving Sacraments from such “priests”, or consecration or ordination from such “Bishops”. You admit uncertainty and we cannot have uncertainty where Sacraments are concerned and that is NOT my “claim” but the teaching of the actual Church. Period.
What part of this, AGAIN, don’t you understand?
Father Lawrence Joseph Riley, A.B., S.T.L., wrote the book: The History, Nature, and use of Epikeia in Moral Theology. Copyright 1948, The Catholic University of America Press, INC. Imprimatur: + Richardus Jacobus Cushing. D.D., 7 May, 1948.
Father Riley informs us on page 344: “In short, it may be concluded that in regard to matters which touch the essence of the SACRAMENTS, the use of Epikeia is ALWAYS EXCLUDED.”
Father Riley informs us on page 347: “In regard to the essence of these Sacraments, (Holy Orders and Matrimony) what has been explained above of all the Sacraments is applicable to them – viz., that EPIKEIA IS NEVER LICIT.”
If you are serious in your purported pursuit of Truth, Marie Tageye:
Firstly, you must know that there is precious nothing that is somehow, “funny”, about the likes of Tom A and my2cents, who are utter poison to the unsuspecting as vulnerable soul, as is so called, “mothermostforgiving”. Tom A is a conniving, manipulating, and deceiving, pseudo-intellectual fool, on his sure and certain path to Hell, with my2cents his cheerleader, also on that path. Amen. Jesus the Christ commanded that His disciples will, “know them by their fruits”. He commanded that the evil fruit would be cast by Him into the eternal fire of perdition. Amen. They evidence time and time and time as again, evil fruit, which is objective, reality as it is, truth thus, as commanded by the Incarnate Son of God. Amen. Alleluia. If you cannot see this evil application and perverse diabolical twist of partial truth by Tom A as continually, as though legion, in spite of innumerable warnings offered him by ASB and me, then you too are blind. Secondly, if you are serious, “talk less”, and, “listen more”. Amen. In caritas.
I agree. This is what hell must look like. The devil himself forever raking over the coals his slaves that sold their souls to him on earth.
In Caritas, You still have not asked my Question A). Can you answer that please.
I have read a great Deal of the Home alone stuff. I will would really like it A Simple Beggar and In Caritas If you would answer what I posted in my Question A). I am asking you sincerely to give me one Church father or Pope that said that Apostolic Succession is ceased before the end of time? You want me to talk less and I want you to answer that question for me because it might help me to see something that I did not.
I have also read the URL that you posted on Stanfield Benns site the lady who “repented of voting for ‘Pope Michael”” and I read a a great deal of her book the “Phantom Church of Rome” or words to that effect. I think she basically thinks that the ecclesiastical Church is a Phantom”. I found much of her book contradictory but very interesting. I totally agree that he Vatican II Church is in apostasy and I do agree that there is a right position to take and I think the position of Sede vantism is the correct one but then it really breaks down into factions and the Sede vacantists including yourselves attacking each other and frankly judging each others salvation and saying to this one you are going to Hell when only God knows who is in Hell as the Church does not pronounce what individuals who reside there other than general principles that those who commit mortal sins or believed in heresy, were apostates etc. Our Lord said about Judas that it would be better that he was not even born and that Judas was the son of perdition and we know that the heretics Benedict and Francis Bergoglio have tried to “rehabilitate” him. I would never wish that anyone go to hell but rather to repent and know Jesus Christ and His Holy Church but truthfully the great Saints teach the doctrine of the few that go to Heaven. Now the Church pronounces who is in heaven but I really think your words go above and beyond the position which you hold which is laymen unless you are women as the names you choose are “gender neutral”. I also think that it is very difficult to find the precise position within the varieties of Sede Vantism and it is for sure I see a great deal of hypocrisy among some of the traditional Catholic clergy. I think that you both are consistent that you believe that Archbishop Lefebvre and Thuc had fangs but I would like to know what you thought of say Padre Pio? You must think he did also as he also called Paul VI a pope. I assume that you can not think of one Sede Vantist Bishop that was an Orthodox Catholic is this correct?? I assume that you think that they were wrong because they had no jurisdiction to do what they did namely ordain priests and say public Masses is that right? While you attack everyone else on this forum that does not agree with you has it occurred to you that moderator Loui may also disagree with some of what you say? I do think A Simple Beggar that you are much more civil and kinder in your approach than In Caritas and I do appreciate that in how you approach this all important question of apostolic succession for the benefit of peoples souls as Christ said “unless you eat my body and drink my blood you will not have life within in you”. And james_o I have read Benns stuff. And I don’t believe that she or you have answered my question in question A.) or the fact that there were times during the Churches history when sacraments were given to the faithful when there was no true pope alive for several years and were does it say anywhere that an interregnum can not be well over 50 years. I am sincerely asking these questions and none of you have answered them.
“my2cents” I totally agree that “We are not lost souls if we keep our eye on Our Lord and His Mother.” But I would only add to your true statement that we have to obey His commandments and adhere to all His teachings whole and entire. I am asking you In Caritas to not call people Morons though. Just because people do not have the “same” mental capacity that you have does not give you the right to use uncivil language to folks like my2cents or Tom A. I fail to see where any of the Saints or Jesus Christ (bless His Holy Name) in the New Testament used belittling language to correct people or try to make converts. And I know you want me to talk less “In Caritas” and listen more but you might try taking your own sound advice sometime. You can convert more people with honey than vinegar as the saying goes. Just saying. Take it or leave it for what it is worth. Perhaps you heard that quite a bit as a child and you picked that up as a way of relating to people who irritate you but it is sign of prudence for Christians to refrain from tongue lashings against enemies for Our Lord when before His enemies spoke very little but was like a meek lamb led to the slaughter giving up His life willingly and as St. James says “And if any man think himself to be religious, not bridling his tongue, but deceiving his own heart, this man’s religion is vain. I really want you to answer my question though in A.) Thanking you. Sincerely, Marie
Dear Marie,
You are different than the enemies of Christ as Tom A, my2cents, mmf, 2Vermont, and etc. You have a yearning for truth and yet you are drastically misguided and I posit this claim in both sincerity and humility. Amen. “You will know them by their fruits”. Remember Marie, evil has NO RIGHTS. What is a right in the scholastic understanding? The moral power offered the one who is given a particular moral responsibility, such that he is protected from the offense of the other, who would attempt to prevent him from accomplishing his moral obligation. Amen. That is the teaching of the Angelic Doctor. Evil thus, as the privation of the moral or religious good which is due in the act, simply HAS NO RIGHTS. Evil must be confronted with the proportionate force required to mitigate it. Amen. If you spend some time here, you will see that I do not hold this same posture with many others. You simply must know the enemies of Christ as the enemies of truth, as He Is Truth. Amen. Alleluia. They are wolves in sheep’s clothing, some more cunning than others, yet all pseudo-intellectuals, as they deny Truth. Almighty God formed his miserable human creature’s intellect to KNOW TRUTH, as He Is Truth and they deny Him, and in that denial they demonstrate a corrupted and malformed intellect, which offers then only a pseudo-intellectual understanding of reality as it actually is. This is a real manifestation of adhering to deception as though it is truth. They as all who are deceived, while in the denial of God’s grace, actually believe their profound error to be truth. Amen. The Apostle prophesied this to be in our time in 2 Thess 2, as, “the operation of error to believe lying”, and all would receive it that were damned, as they will it, by having no true zeal for Truth nor love for Him, as the Incarnate Son of God. Amen. Alleluia. This is the Church Militant, Marie. No place for anyone not willing to give it all for Jesus the Christ. The utter salvation of eternal souls are at stake, with perfectly miserable mine as the first. Amen.
First things first if you are sincere. Read again and very carefully, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, then come back and ask questions and make comments. God bless you on your quest for Him Marie, as Incarnate Truth, the Logos, the Meaning of all else which simply is. Amen. Alleluia. In caritas.
Oh’ and yet another, my……..2…….cents,
You simply swallow your foot every time your wretched little hands go to the keys, offering as singularly, your utterly abysmally errant fiat as opinion, while at once you stand in the false accusation of the other, as though the other is doing precisely all that you ever do, and that is rendering purely and utterly errant, my2cents’ conjecture as opinion. Amen. You ACTUALLY wrote this: “The Catholic Church before V2 no longer exists—but, Christ is still Head of His Church.” Now, now, you very, very poor, miserable, pseudo-intellectual as miscreant fool, who once again places another hideous affront to divine as perpetual, unending and unchanging, while living Magisterial Truth, and of course you didn’t even know that you did, because you are perfectly blinded by, “the operation of error to believe lying”, which Almighty God sends to your intellect and will my2cents, as indeed you utterly deserve the adjective, pseudo-intellectual, as you continue to evidence so profoundly again and yet again, and again. Amen. Your statement as quoted of you, is literally syncretic, the masterstroke of the modernist monster, as you conjoin two statements that while at once you adjoin, they remain in infinite contradiction as in perfect opposition, from one as to the other. Amen. You actually posit the claim that, “The Catholic Church before V2 no longer exists….”, while at once it is the infallible as perennial teaching of Holy Mother Church and as instituted by Jesus the Christ, that She NEVER CHANGES in Her foundation. Portions of the Church can as they have been, “overcome by the powers of the assaults of Hell”, and yet She remains perfectly inviolable in Her foundation as instituted by the Incarnate Son of God. Amen. You should be shuddering in terror of the fear of the loss of your eternal soul, 2cents. She is today as She was yesterday and as She will be tomorrow, unto the Last Day. Amen. Alleluia. This is the perennial Ordinary and Universal Magisterial teaching of the Catholic Church. You affront this infallible as Authoritative teaching of the Church, evidencing at once and again that you are an heretic in apostasy, period and end. Witness now from sections 9, then 15 of, “Satis Cognitum”, the Authoritative as infallible true, the beautiful, and the good:
‘Wherefore, as appears from what has been said, Christ instituted in the Church a living, authoritative and permanent Magisterium, which by His own power He strengthened, by the Spirit of truth He taught, and by miracles confirmed. He willed and ordered, under the gravest penalties, that its teachings should be received as if they were His own. As often, therefore, as it is declared on the authority of this teaching that this or that is contained in the deposit of divine revelation, it must be believed by every one as true. If it could in any way be false, an evident contradiction follows; for then God Himself would be the author of error in man.”
“But it is opposed to the truth, and in evident contradiction with the divine constitution of the Church, to hold that while each Bishop is individually bound to obey the authority of the Roman Pontiffs, taken collectively the Bishops are not so bound. For it is the nature and object of a foundation to support the unity of the whole edifice and to give stability to it, rather than to each component part; and in the present case this is much more applicable, since Christ the Lord wished that by the strength and solidity of the foundation the gates of hell should be prevented from prevailing against the Church. All are agreed that the divine promise must be understood of the Church as a whole, and not of any certain portions of it. These can indeed be overcome by the assaults of the powers of hell, as in point of fact has befallen some of them.”
If you were now to objectively evidence, “good fruit”, my2cents, you would acknowledge your profound error, abjure it, and be willing then to seek the Truth, as He created your intellect my2cents, to conform as perfectly to Him, as witnessed in His divine, living, perpetual Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, which IS Jesus the Christ with His disciples, Teaching and Governing them as to be with them unto the Last Day, as He Himself commanded it to be. Amen. Alleluia. I pray you receive His superabundant grace to save your eternal soul and bear witness to Him as for the benefit of the other. “Love thy neighbor as I have loved thee.”. In caritas.
Marie, let me translate what IC said. Read the Magisterial documents that I selected and come to the conclusions that I came to otherwise you are an heretic. That is basically the IC playbook.
Poor Tom,
He is, as he says, “left doomed to wander” as an orphan in all uncertainty, as since we have no Pope, HE says we are left with NO authority nor way to know which path to take, nor can we know the Truth, Who is ultimately Jesus Christ.
If this isn’t evidence of a lack of Faith, I don’t know what is.
In Caritas please give me a URL that has the whole document in English not an English version that has a commentary like this following one by Benns http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:NZTZ7u4i9GIJ:betrayedcatholics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/VASannot.pdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us and one in Latin here https://webdept.fiu.edu/~mirandas/vacantis.htm I do NOT read Latin.
“Love thy neighbor as I have loved thee.” Finally, we agree on something. Now we must obey Our Lord’s command in word and action. Amen and Alleluia.
Dear In Caritas, I did read the document and it is a very long one and very technical even down to what shoes they were to wear here http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:NZTZ7u4i9GIJ:betrayedcatholics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/VASannot.pdf+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us I could not find in English except on the aforesaid site.
Now can you please answer my question which I asked you a long time ago
In Caritas Question A) I am asking you sincerely to give me one Church father or Pope that said that Apostolic Succession is ceased before the end of time as you said in your previous post ” as without Apostolic Succession since Oct., 27, 1958, and now unto the Last Day. Amen.” ?
Dear sister in Christ, Miss Tageye,
Well done for focusing on the objective issues; and for showing many of the fruits of the Holy Ghost in your sincere discussion of same. That is how people who love God and the Holy Faith can communicate in good faith to their own good and to the good of any reader of their communications. May God have mercy on us and purify us and may we receive the grace of final perseverance in the One Holy Faith.
Marie,
You are missing the point here. It matters not if a Pope or Holy Father prophesied the loss of apostolic succession or not, apostolic succession is only passed on through a true Pope, as established by Jesus Christ. It’s a dogmatic fact.
True Pope = jurisdiction= apostolic.
Do pseudo-popes have authority? NOT! The ONLY way the faithful know their Pastors/Sacraments is because of a communion with a visible and true Pope. Do you see one? Do we have one?
If you don’t, then you cannot know, or ever objectively know, not after 60 years. You will now relegated to “choosing” or judging for yourself what Pastors suit you, the ones that you may think are holy or whatever in your sight. That’s purely subjective, and definitely Protestant. Without a true visable Pontiff, and nothing but a chain of anti-christs for the past 60 years, we CAN’T know who is in communion with who anymore. It’s all mixed up like a dog’s breakfast. None of them could ever claim to be “sent”. It’s chaos.
And we are forbidden to receive doubtful Pastors or Sacraments. And anyone who says they do know for sure who is who in this mess, is truly making themselves a judge, a pope in fact.
So much for a practical, visible apostolic succession, huh? Maybe somewhere, somebody, somehow has it, but that’s purely academic. The present horrors are happening right in our face, under our noses, and we are still going to ask if anyone prophesied it in the past? So ok, again you will still say no one answered your question, right? Or still insist this age is comparable, somehow, to interregnums of the past? If so, then I can say no more.
But the answer has been already given to you, and us, like a punch in the face. If you disagree, then you can explain to all here about Papal jurisdiction, and how to carefully “choose” Priests and Sacraments, in this mess, with any degree of certainty whatsoever.
“You are different than the enemies of Christ as Tom A, my2cents, mmf, 2Vermont, and etc.”
You are a liar like your father, the devil. BTW, it’s different “different from,” not “different than.” (Unless you’re across the pond, eh old boy?)
Dear Lynda, Thank you for your very kind words, The Holy Ghost loves us even though we are very undeserving of this love yet when we were in our sin, the scripture said that Christ died for us on the cross and that if we are to imitate Him we must take up our own crosses. As you know we do not deserve the grace that God holds out to us each day, however it flows from the font of His all loving generosity and goodness. It is my sincere prayer also as it is yours that we receive that grace that you spoke of as final perseverance in the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic faith. That according to God’s Holy will, we may some day meet in Heaven with all the Angels and Saints even as we work out our salvation in fear and trembling. For as the scriptures say that the beginning of wisdom is to fear the Lord. Then in Heaven, we know from our Holy Catholic Church teaching, that the perfect love that God holds out to us will cast out all fear, but so as not to sin with presumption today, we say God willing, guide us there by His Hand of mercy with a response of our obedience, so as not to stumble and be judged by His just wrath lest we fall short of His command to be perfect and pure of heart. Happy to be your sister in Christ and thank you for asking God’s mercy for us.
Oh’ my2cents,
Once and again, you completely misunderstand our Blessed Jesus the Christ, the Incarnate Son of God, Who commanded this while He was dying His most ignominious, excruciating death on His Holy Cross. Amen. Alleluia. His is not, affective love, which is the singular lens through which you see love, as your love is effeminate, as it is soft and inverted. Rather, His intellective love, reflects His perfect knowledge of the other, while at once it is utterly and perfectly sacrificial. That is the love of the other, while he is in the midst of his persecution of you as unrighteously, as that is what persecution is, moral violence shown toward the other. Perfectly unjust. What is justice, my2cents, in the scholastic understanding? True justice is simply that which is truly due the other. If the other is an heretic, then just punishment is due, in light of authentic justice and its true Catholic moral teaching, while in caritas, as sacrificial love is hard. Amen. These remain as simply authentically Catholic truth, my2cents, but as infallible taught in, “Satis Cognitum”, the heretic will remain perfectly blind to them, as sterile and worthless sand. Amen. Alleluia. Save your soul. Submit to the divine and living, perpetual, Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, you heretic. In caritas.
Good early Friday morning dear james__o,
Very good. Very practical and pointed directly into the conundrum which is simply obvious, as to a 12 year old intellect, yes, who actually holds the supernatural Gift of the divine and Catholic Faith. Amen. Alleluia. Poor, poor Marie Tageye. The non-Catholic is simply perfectly blind in this quagmire and yet they believe they see, as they believe they hold the Catholic Faith. The perfect litmus test is the utter blindness to the simple reality as it indeed is, truth thus, and not the deception which they hold as truth, as this blindness objectively reflects that they hold, “the operation of error to believe lying”. Saint Paul warned that those who hold this freely in the operations of their intellect and will and then die with it, are damned. Amen. It is amazing to bear witness as their, “feathers ruffle”, under the scrutiny of truth, as Tom A, mmf, and the cadre of pseudo-intellectual, heretical fools.
They speak of the Antichrist as though he is yet to come. They actually believe that Antichrist was to be obvious to anyone who called himself, Catholic, or even pseudo-Christian, as so called protestant. In that belief they affront the inerrant teaching of the Great Apostasy which was to precede and then culminate during the reign of Antichrist and the desolation which now follows him and remains unto the Last Day, deFide. Amen. They take numbers as three and one half years as literal time, which they will be able to somehow apply to his reign of terror, as to then have been obvious to them. When it is all said and done, they write as though they believe they have an intelligence superior to the preternatural intelligence of the summa and summit of Hell as Lucifer, who is their Prince, as they objectively bear witness to this reality. This is witnessed by their fall into his conundrum as his slaves, in their very own non-Catholic sects which they adhere to with a malignant love of self, believing that they deserve the Holy Sacraments in this prophetic time. Their non-Catholic sects are simply clothed in the metaphysical accidental forms, of those realities which were once evidence of the Church, established by the Incarnate Son of God. Amen. Any actor can dress the part, whether he knows it or not. Amen.
Whose church do they actually think that this creature beast, hideous thing from Hell belongs to, which murders the innocence of young boys, etc., ad nauseum? They acknowledge, “false popes”, as they errantly refer to as, “anti-popes”, as Lucifer sucks them into, as once and again, his all but perfect deception that this thing can both be and not be, the Holy Catholic Church, at one and the same time. Amen. Further, they speak of the false council of the church of Antichrist, as though the council is the root cause of the problem, as if a corporate retreat was the corporation and all of its business activity. The utter stupidity is legion as it is fantastically profound. It is profoundly as unutterably stunning to witness this blindness. It does take one’s breath away. This so called mmf freak, actually accused me of being a, “bot”, some machine which apparently undergoes algorithmic reductions of sorts. This kind of witness to the utterly abysmal as satanic hatred of Christ, as He is Truth, is as sorrowful as anything I have ever known, as having borne witness to. Amen. Marie simply doesn’t see that as she cannot understand, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, she simply cannot receive the truth into the operations of her intellect and will, supernaturally blocked by the reception of, “the operation of error to believe lying”. Amen. Nothing that a perfectly miserable creature as me can tell her, could possibly make any difference thus. God created His human creatures’ intellect and will to perfectly conform to His. “Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.” Amen. Alleluia. The thought that anyone can actually as literally hold the truth, causes anger to stir in their hearts, the likes of which is almost palpable from the screen. They simply cannot believe this, while at once they know that they are blind, and yet they simply refuse to accept this reality as it is, and abjure their hatred of Truth as Jesus the Christ. Amen. They believe the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium is simply a collection of documents of, “dead popes”, at once evidencing the satanic hatred of Truth by the pseudo-intellectual fool as Tom A. They believe this Magisterial, “data”, can be sifted and sorted, as if by a, “bot”, and then perfectly errant human opinions, which from their very essence hold doubt, are all that can be somehow derived from them. This is the satanic thinking of the imbecilic moron, who connives the truth with his diabolical cunning, this Tom A, on his sure as certain path to his very own personal eternity, with his Prince in Hell. We are commanded by Jesus the Christ to KNOW them by their fruits and Tom A’s fruit is particularly poisonous as rabid. Amen. May Almighty God save his soul. May the Blessed Virgin Mother of God, the Mother of her Sacred Heart’s true children, hold us in her Immaculate Heart, as she gives us the Council of her Divine Spouse, the Holy Ghost. Amen. Alleluia. In caritas.
Poor, poor Marie Tageye,
Pope Pius XII taught this reality as it is, Authoritatively, in the document which you complain is long, while in truth you are simply blinded from receiving it into your intellect and will. It is simply not the way that you would like it to be and yet it is precisely how the most Blessed, Holy, Triune Godhead has willed it to be from all eternity. Amen. I pray that you submit to the divine Authority and Teaching of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, perpetual, as unending and unchanging, as the Holy Magisterium is the Incarnate Son of God Teaching and Governing His true Church, as He is with us there and as He commanded, unto the Last Day. Amen. Alleluia. In caritas.
…and a good morning to you IC as well,
Isn’t it enough that the Good Lord Himself prophesied that there would be many false christs, false prophets, and that the abomination of desolation would be seen? That there is only One Divine Way, that which He Himself Ordained? All else is just chaos.
People must stop denying their own senses.
Amen, Miss Tageye.
james_o and In Caritas
I read that document of Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis that In Caritas suggested (NOTHING IN IT THAT PRECLUDES A LONG INTERREGNUM OR THAT THE WHOLE COLLEGE OF CARDINALS CAN NOT APOSTATISE BUT WE WOULD STILL HAVE A CLERGY SOMEWHERE WHO DID NOT) I read and then I asked him in civil way could he answer this here about 3 times I have asked him because I really want to know the truth about this issue and this was it= Question A) I am asking you sincerely to give me one Church father or Pope that said that Apostolic Succession is ceased before the end of time?
And IC couldn’t give me NOT one then you come back james_o and say that “You are missing the point here. It matters not if a Pope or Holy Father prophesied the loss of apostolic succession or not, apostolic succession is only passed on through a true Pope, as established by Jesus Christ. It’s a dogmatic fact.” You two are a big time wrestling tag team with big time wrestling theology which does NOT follow the Facts or Catholic Theology.
True Pope = jurisdiction= apostolic. Guess what james_o it is also a fact and I proved it in interregnums no MATTER HOW LONG The Church provides for jurisdiction in an Emergency when we HAVE NO POPE- it happened in the Great Western schism and it is happening now. I grant you that it is “irregular” and I grant you that it sure seems like there is no Diocese not taken over by Novus Ordo ( It reminds me of the Arian Heresy only unlike then we don’t have a Pope) but we still have apostolic succession, Vatican I says we will have it “till the end of time” but you guys are doubting Thomas’s.
Just because we have never hand an interregnum this long but God is the author of the divine and human laws and the highest law is the salvation of souls. He wants his Church to continue with guess what a clergy and priests which I get that we have been betrayed by an eclipse of the Church but the Church is still there. So what even if there seems to be 99 percent Judas goats there are still true priests and Bishops and just like there have been during INTEREGNUMS FOR MORE THAN 1 DAY to three years to yes maybe even 100 years AFTER A TRUE POPE DIES THERE IS NOTHING IN CANON LAW THAT PRECLUDES THE POSSIBILITY OF HAVING AN INTERREGNUM FOR EVEN 80 OR 100 YEARS. And just like there were STILL CATHOLIC BISHOPS AND PRIESTS GET THIS YOU ACCUSERS OF THE BRETHERAN THE CHURCH ITSELF GAVE THE APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY GHOST THROUGH THE ONE, HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH Itself when there was NO POPE.
YOU GUYS ARE SO STUCK ON NO TRUE POPE SO NO APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION OR JURISDICTION BUT WE HAVE SEEN CASES IN HISTORY OF THE EXACT OPPISITE OF WHAT YOU CLAIM WITH INTERREGNUMS. AND SO WHY COULDN’T WE SEE EVEN SOMETHING MORE WEIRD IN THIS GREAT APOSTASY WHICH YOUR PUNY MINDS WHAT TO READ LIKE A SCRIBE OR PHARISY. GODS WAYS ARE NOT YOUR WAYS.
Now james_o this statement demonstrates YOUR PRIDE “It matters not if a Pope or Holy Father prophesied the loss of apostolic succession or not, apostolic succession is only passed on through a true Pope. You and In Caritas think you know more than what the Church has clearly taught that we will have APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION TILL THE END OF TIME- IN OTHER WORDS TRUE SUCCESSORS OF THE APOSTLES – below is the proof AND YOU ARE USING FALSE LEGALISTIC PRINCIPLES THAT DENY WHAT THE TRUE POPE AND APOSTLES AND THEOLOGIANS HAVE TOLD US:
APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION till the end of time till the end of the world below
Catholic Enyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01648b.htm APA citation. O’Reilly, T. (1907). Apostolicity. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York BELOW
“Apostolicity, or Apostolic succession, then, means that the mission conferred by Jesus Christ upon the Apostles must pass from then to their legitimate successors, in an unbroken line, until the end of the world. This notion of Apostolicity is evolved from the words of Christ Himself, the practice of the Apostles, and the teaching of the Fathers and theologians of the Church.
“The guidance of Christ was, therefore, to continue with their successors. This is clearly disclosed by the words of Christ: ‘Behold I am with you all days even to the consummation of the world.’ Since the Apostles were not to live until the end of the world, Christ promised to be with them in the person of their successors unto the end of time.” (The Faith of Millions, p. 137).”
“Why can’t the Catholic Church ever teach error? Because Jesus promised to be always with His church to protect it from error. ‘Go therefore, and make disciples of all nations…teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you: and behold, I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world’ (Matthew 28:19-20).” (A Catechism For Adults, p. 56).
“This commission evidently applies not to the Apostles only, but also to their successors, to the end of time, since it was utterly impossible for the Apostles personally to preach to the whole world.” (The Faith of Our Fathers by James Cardinal Gibbons, p. 56).
“Since it was physically impossible for the Apostles to preach to the whole world, the mission must have been intended also for their successors to the end of time, our Catholic Bishops and priests.” (My Catholic Faith, p. 145).
Pius IX infallibly taught in Vatican I
1.The eternal shepherd and guardian of our souls [37] ,in order to render permanent the saving work of redemption, determined to build a church in which,as in the house of the living God, all the faithful should be linked by the bond of one faith and charity. 3.So then,just as he sent apostles, whom he chose out of the world [39] , even as he had been sent by the Father [40], in like manner it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the end of time. 4.In order, then, that the episcopal office should be one and undivided and that, by the union of the clergy, the whole multitude of believers should be held together in the unity of faith and communion,he set blessed Peter over the rest of the apostles and instituted in him the permanent principle of both unities and their visible foundation.
Now Pius IX said “should” because he knew that there would be interregnums so even if the permanent principle of both unities is not set in the physical chair i-e. the papacy the Church STILL goes ON an on and Apostolic succession happens TILL THE END OF TIME through Holy Ghost in the Church and the chair of St. Peter – AS Christ will always sustain the Church by giving us a magisterium so that it will have authority, and be able to dispense sacraments and grace to the flock even if it is like manna from the sky as the Israelites grumbled- it is our Emergency Rations- but no you want to starve as you wonder around in your desert. We were promised that we would have Apostolic Succession and it will happen even until the end of time. So you guys are dead wrong and you should NOT be absenting yourself from the assembly. It is very clear to me that you will not even answer my simple question…
God never promised us we would always have a Pope sitting on the Chair of Peter every second but that doesn’t mean that he can not sustain his church with apostles till the end of time. Just because you don’t understand how He would go beyond your concept of canon law so don’t bother as James-o said to look because “It matters not if a Pope or Holy Father prophesied the loss of apostolic succession” you “home a loner’s just know in your own “private interpretation”, of canon law, theology and great prophets like Nicholas of Fluh (1417-1487): “The Church will be punished because the majority of her members, high and low, will become so perverted. The Church will sink deeper and deeper until she will at last SEEM to be extinguished, and the succession of Peter and the other Apostles TO HAVE expired. But, after this, she will be victoriously exalted in the sight of all doubters.”
see Yves Dupont, Catholic Prophecy, Rockford, IL: Tan Books, 1973, p. 30.
That you somehow think that Jesus Christ promise that he would not leave us orphans on this earth by giving us successors of the apostles is just what some “pope or prophet said” and we don’t have to listen to it TOTALLY CONTRADICTS the Catholic faith and the facts that by the authority of the Catholic Church herself she tells us that we will have Apostolic succession until the end of time. I feel sorry for you and I will pray that you will stop attacking people for your pride in disbelieving in the promises of Jesus Christ. The Church will still be here when Christ returns end of story.
In Caritas, Tom A was right about you. Your interpretation of Church is dogma even when you contradict dogmatic statements from our Church that apostolic Succession continues until the end of time. You just know there are NO priests, and Bishops left and that everyone is an apostate except you and maybe three other people on this forum that agree with you on your stubborn way of ignoring pre Vatican II magisterial teaching both ordinary and yes extraordinary on this point which I asked you in my question A) . It is clear you don’t want to answer it. I think you should really be a more mature person when you disagree with people and not descend down into name calling like calling them stupid and morons and implying that somehow they are on the road to hell when even St. Paul said that he did not judge himself, but that he worked out his salvation in fear and trembling. You should learn to be kinder as this is a Christian trait. God bless you and help you to meditate on the kindness of Christ that while you were yet in your sin as there is no time with Christ in His Divinity, He suffered and died for you on the cross. Then maybe like Him you will say when people say bad things that you oppose “Father forgive them for they know not what they do” instead of “you morons, miscreants you are going to Hell.” When in fact it would be a grave sin of presumption on your part if you thought that God would never apply that reality due to some of the things you falsely believe like your NO apostolic succession till the of time comments. Besides we may be at the end of “a time” but no one really knows for certain if we are at the end of human history yet you talk like the end time prophet whilst you ignore Nicholas of Flu which is very sad because I would take him over you any day. I still appreciate much of what you say though but I was really disappointed that you would not address my honest question A).
I don’t think you ever could honestly address that question because it contradicts what you believe and your friend James_o dismisses what past popes and prophets have said about it because it doesn’t follow what his man made doctrines either.
In Caritas, Here you were hoisted by your own petard when you said about the Catholic Church in TRUTH and I believe what you say, ”
“She NEVER CHANGES in Her foundation. Portions of the Church can as they have been, “overcome by the powers of the assaults of Hell”, and yet She remains perfectly inviolable in Her foundation as instituted by the Incarnate Son of God. Amen. You should be shuddering in terror of the fear of the loss of your eternal soul, 2cents. She is today as She was yesterday and as She will be tomorrow, unto the Last Day. Amen.
So In Caritas, I totally believe what you said above ok. Yesterday the Church had apostolic succession meaning a thousand years ago, or 700 or 60 or 50 or yes two years ago or two minutes ago AND IN CARITAS YOUR OWN WORD PROVE YOU WRONG THAT APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION HAS ENDED. But really prayer will only help you to see that so I am saying a prayer for you right now and james_o that you will see the truth that Jesus told us he would NOT leave us orphans and that the priesthood and apostolic succession is NOT dead. And that you will stop being so pessimistic and attacking people who are your fellow Catholics and that you will give them more leeway.
Ok.
Lynda, I totally agree with your comments that Ricky Gervais at the Golden Globe was allowed because of Hollywood’s own sick reasons ” like to boast to their masses of slaves about the evil they do,” and that they have a “largely successful attempt at making morally-enslaved people” and yes robots. I would only add to your astute comments that if this English clown would have said something about Hollywood’s collusion with the “abortion industry” he would have had the mike taken away from him and he would have been thrown out into the streets of Hollywood to walk barefoot on the needles and fecal matter and live with the poor homeless that are a result of the anti-Christian liberal policies of the left wing politicians who let people do whatever they want Hollywood types as long as it doesn’t hurt us. You know the ones who live in the gated and walled up super rich communities of the perverse Harvey Weinstein’s or the tare down the wall type open boarders, throw away your guns while they have body guards to protect themselves types. They call for less caustic action or violence yet they turn around like Bergoglio and slap you in the hand when they are confronted about their pro-communist policies, or they- like the professional NBA players who stick up for China by telling us not to criticize that communistic government or they will not get their NBA contracts from these communist dictators, instead of siding with the poor students who just demonstrate for their freedom in Hong Kong and get tear gassed or worse yet killed or that poor what looked like a Chinese woman confronting Bergoglio. No those who cry out for justice get slapped down by the Pharisees running the One world as John Lennon said in his song “AND no religion too, Nothing to live or die for…. just dope you up and make you a slave so as Aldous Huxley said “they will love their servitude”. These professional athletes are too busy kneeling at the National Anthem instead of opposing real persecution from Communistic governments, or even worse but more subtle opposing a media that corrupts our youth every minute of every day. No I really don’t think you can get a “helping hand from a liberal” just a hand out and an enforced oppression of Christian virtue. You are right Lynda. If more people thought like you and acted on it the world would be a better place.
Dear Marie,
Do you happen to know exactly how the sacrifice will fail, as per Daniel 9:27, if it’s not due to that which withholds, being taken out of the way, at the end of time (the Papacy – 2 Thess Ch 2)?
https://www.betrayedcatholics.com/free-content/reference-links/3-the-latin-mass/cessation-of-the-continual-sacrifice/
Why did Sr. Lucia say Dec 26, 1957, 10 months to the day that the Conclave was handed over to the enemies, that all we would have left as remedies would be the Rosary and the Devotion to her Immaculate Heart? What about the Sacraments? She spoke of the fall of the priests also at that time, while warning that few had heeded the message, good or bad, and that the chastisement was IMMINENT.
Dear Marie, BRAVO!!!!!
Oh yes, Bravo Marie. Good job.
And another bravo!! Marie for twisting my words.
Thanks.
It is too scary and uncomfortable for people to accept, James. All one can do is inform. You’ve shown yourself a gentleman by not allowing yourself to be drawn into an argument and all that nonsense. I find your links and your concise posts helpful.
Helping is what I was hoping to do, and my intent. I’m glad those links were of assistance to you.
Thanks, georgianne
Dear Marie,
could you please take this a step further and show us where apostolic succession is found today, so we know where we can go for valid and licit Sacraments and the Holy Mass, without any doubt whatsoever since Catholics must not approach doubtful sacraments.
People have a moral duty to ban the constant evil propaganda of “governments”, etc. from their homes, and all aspects of their children’s lives, especially protect them from the evil centralised (anti-) education system, which is satanic abuse of their souls, minds and bodies. All is lies – truth is criminalised. And many who think they’re following some lesser evil are supporting the most horrific intrinsic evils, including constant wars, etc. to get any remaining countries under the evil one world NWO cabal, and its Central Bank system, UN direct population programmes, etc. Nothing but compromise with evil. Denial of service of God means ever more evil. Lord, have mercy! Save us Lord! Bring back to repentance and conversion those whom we know who have turned away from God to serve the perverted Prince of this world. If it be Thy Holy Will, Lord, though we don’t deserve it, send us some holy men to lead us here on Earth.
Ursula,
There are many Latin Mass Directories on line that post where Latin Masses are around the USA and which ones are associated with Novus ordo Diocese and which ones are not. Now because the Novus Ordo false church is the synthesis of all the heresies ie. Modernism and the false ecumenical Sillon type movements we see today with the VII Conciliar church which Pius X warned us about in Pascendi “On Modernism”, it is worse than the Arian Heresy so Catholics should avoid going to Novus Ordo Diocese churches =NO church as eventually Pachamama which is approved by their False Pope Bergoglio will come to the local NO Church. This NO Church is the false church with false sacraments which Eclipses Jesus Christ and his One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church which can NOT give out error. Our Lady of La Salette said that the “Church would be in Eclipse” and that “Rome would lose the faith and become the seat of the Anti-Christ. Also Marie-Julie Jahenny warned of this false church with “new priests from hell” and “new sacraments” here: On May 10, 1904, Our Lady describes the new clergy and its liturgy: “They will not stop on this hateful and sacrilegious road. They will go further to compromise all at once, and in one blow, the Holy Church, the clergy, and the Faith of my children.” She announces the “dispersion of the pastors” by the Church herself; true pastors, who will be replaced by others formed by Hell: “…new preachers of new sacraments, new temples, new baptisms, new confraternities.” Marie Julie Jahenny heard Satan say to Christ, For a time I will be Master of all things everything will be under my control, even your temple and all ; your people.” … and will continue implacably to obtain the cessation of Holy Mass. O” [ Remember Ursula this statement from Satan is exaggerated in Satan’s use of the word “all” because NOT ALL Catholics have followed these false Shepherds and sacraments. On March 29, 1879; marie Julie stated, : “The abandoned Church will be without its Supreme Head who governs and directed it. {Cessation of Holy Mass I believe means the implementation of the Novus Ordo and most people attending it and not being able to find a true Latin Mass in their area- THIS IS NOT AN ABSOLUTE STATEMENT FOR Jahenny would Not contradict that we will have true Pastors until the end of time who will say the Mass.)
«July 7 1880 Jesus tell Mary – Julie: «the church will be deprived of his supreme chief that now the guidance (…) The Chief of the Church will be offended outrageously».
To answer your question this is one place you can go http://www.traditio.com/nat.htm to in order to find out Latin Masses offered this is a pdf here http://www.traditio.com/tradlib/masslat.pdf
james_o and In Caritas do not believe that you should look into this because they believe that Apostolic succession is dead when Christ promised us that it would be with us till the end of time. The Order of Melchizedek lasts Ursula until the end of time. Even though when the FINAL anti-Christ comes there will be a virtual cessation of the Holy Mass as the doctors of the Church teach, The Saints and Holy Scripture it also teaches in the Original Rheims bible 1582 and the Douay-Rheims Haydock Bible that a few Masses will sneak by the anti-Christ’s notice. And I already posted those references. These folks like IN_Caritas and james_o are quite right to suspect most of the clergy today but they carry it to such an extreme that they believe apostolic succession is dead but the Church does NOT teach that and never has that in an age of Apostasy you will have no priests saying both public and private Masses. If someone other than a priest attends a Mass then it is “public Mass” although done in secret and I have already proven that the Haydock Bible teaches that in the Reign of the Anti-Christ there will be a Sacrifice on the Altar and there will be some faithful who attend it even though it will be virtually wiped out for most of the world. We are NOT at that point yet but the Home Alone catholics think that we are. Even when we get to that point though Apostolic Succession will STILL BE ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH IN THE PERSON OF SOME TRUE SHEPHERDS and OUR LIMITED UNDERSTANDING of how God works out jurisdiction or Epikia is NOT what runs the Church it is Almighty God Himself who will give us these pastors. These pastors are anyone left who were consecrated under Pius XII who rejected THE CONCILIAR CHURCH( from what they saw going on after Vatican II under the false popes and the false sacraments issued by them ie. the Vatican II religion- I grant you there were very few of them). Then these bishops continued to pass down the Apostolic Succession. Some people want to make this all so neat and tidy and they excommunicate all the pre Vatican II hierarchy that they judge to have colluded or accepted the election of Roncalli but they have obviously failed to prove their point that APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION IS DEAD. There have been clerics before who followed anti-popes/false popes and were NOT excommunicated by the Catholic Church and there were also men like Teilhard de Chardin who were NOT excommunicated by true Popes like Pius XII even though he was clearly a heretic and this is the mystery of inequity at work inside the Church so watch out for people who want to hurl automatic excommunications against the Bishops who were in good standing with Pius XII AND WHO WERE AGAINST THE POLICIES OF THE false ecumenical Conciliar Church – hierarchy like Archbishop Lefebvre, Castro Mayer and Thuc (although there is evidence that Thuc reunited with the Conciliar Church there is other evidence this was fraudulent). There are traditional Catholics on this forum who attack these men who pointed out the rot and accused the Vatican II council and false conciliar popes and got excommunicated for their pains and these home aloner’s judge them to be in hell.
And I quote below one of their home alone adherents here Ms. Benns which actually can be used against their false notion of NO MASS now and NO priesthood passed down through Apostolic Succession here because those Bishops who gradually saw the false hood of these false popes even if they didn’t understand the totality of it in 1958 or 1962 did something about it by carrying on Apostolic Succession according to what Pius XII set down in his statements on what constitutes priestly ordination. Moreover all the other Eastern rite Bishops who could have passed down Apostolic Succession and could see the rot of the VII Conciliar church of apostasy did just that passed down Holy Orders.
Against those who think the Hierarchy would have had to have taken the sede vacantist position back then or the Church would cease to be because they would have all accepted John XIII 1958 at the time he was elected and could NOT see he was false Pope at the time from “The Phantom Church in Rome by T. Stanfill Benns page 344 shows that people can become enlightened later and still remain in the Church:
” Some have said the faithful in Roncalli’s day would need to have objected to his election at that time, and since they did, not, then it was valid- but this is not true Pope Paul IV teaches in paragraph 7 of his bull that despite the amount of time that has passed, anyone may withdraw obedience from such a person. And he also teaches such a man never validly elected cannot be considered quasi-legitimate. “paragraph 7 talks about at anytime here “Castellans, Prefects, Captains and Officials, even of Our Beloved City and of the entire Ecclesiastical State, even if they shall be obliged and beholden to those thus promoted or elevated by homage, oath or security; shall be permitted at ANY TIME to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs (the same subject persons, nevertheless, remaining bound by the duty of fidelity and obedience to any future Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates, Cardinals and Roman Pontiff canonically entering).
AS things got worse Ursula more priests and Bishops could see this false Church and they were the ones who consecrated Bishops and priests to carry out the work of the Apostles and it is our job to study just who they were and where the successors of the Apostles are today that can give us emergency rations and the teachings of Jesus Christ. The hierarchy got confused because they did not know how it was going to be interpreted because of the Vatican II double Dutch and they were fooled by a fraudulent Council ratified by fraudulent false popes then by the late 1960’s clerics started to call foul in the late 1960’s and claim that the sede vacantist position was the truth about the apostasy that had occurred and that the see of Peter was vacant since Pius XII died in 1958. There were a few clerics as I have demonstrated to have withdrawn their obedience to VII false popes and V II and those are the ones who carried on Apostolic Succession.
How do we eventually get a Pope in this mess Ursula? This was provided to us here:
Cajetan wrote: “In case of doubt, however (e.g. when it is unknown if someone be a true cardinal or when the pope is dead or uncertain, as seems to have happened at the time of the Great Schism which began under Urban VI), it is to be affirmed that the power to apply the papacy to a person (the due requirements having been complied with) resides in THE CHURH OF GOD. And then by way of devolution it is seen that this power descends to the universal Church, SINCE THE ELECTORS DETERMINED BY THE POPE DO NOT EXIST .” (Cajetan, Tract.1 de auctoritate Papae et Concilii, c.13). So “In Caritas” is Uban VI and Cajetan heretics? These statements come from the Church NOT me. Only God knows when a true pope will eventually be elected.
So Ursula the future of the Church is NOT dead on this earth but APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION continues till the end of time and Christ returns to judge the living and the dead and God will give us these priests and Bishops if we seek them out in prayer and study of Church teaching. I am not twisting the truth of this very important Church teaching. Sorry for the length of this.
Dear James–My “Bravo” was not intended for you or your comments. On the contrary, I respect your comments expressed in a gentlemanly CATHOLIC manner in spite of your apparent defense of another who does not express himself as Our Lord commanded. God bless.
Marie Tageye
Jesus bless you. The following is proof to me that the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass continued after 1958 by Bishop António in Brazil:
BISHOP ANTONIO CONTINUED THE TRADITIONAL LATIN MASS IN HIS DIOCESE OF BRAZIL, FOR DECADES AFTER VATICAN 2
Bishop Antonio de Castro of Brazil, (1904-1991) strongly opposed satanic modernism before, during and after Vatican 2.
“Bishop de Castro Mayer was especially outstanding for his refusal to accept the post-conciliar changes in the liturgy. Until his forced retirement in 1981 the traditional Latin Mass was celebrated throughout his diocese, along with all the other traditional Catholic practices and devotions – and he was to continue this battle even when replaced by the Liberal Bishop Navarro. The majority of the priests in the diocese of Campos (336 of them!) resisted the Modernist orientations of the new bishop and remained faithful. Bishop Antonio was thus able to maintain a completely traditional “diocese” within a diocese, with around 40,000 faithful, which he organized in parallel chapels to protect the faithful from the enemies within.”. (from website Carmel Books)
Our Lord Jesus is greater than demonic creatures.
Dear Marie–Thank you for your wonderful research, which I am sure was very time-consuming, but very necessary. I am a Confused Catholic who as come to the decision to reject the Vatican II “church” which I believe was established by the enemies of Christ in order to destroy His Church. Therefore, Vatican II was not hijacked. It did what it was intended to do. Therefore, I am not associated with any V2 “church” or any prelate or society which considers the V2 “church” legitimate. The Creed says “I believe” in the Holy Catholic Church. The V2 “church” is not Holy. So what am I to do? I believe in the Catholic Faith and I cling to Our Lord and His Mother.
Thank you, Marie.
In Caritas,
You claim that Pius XII would have NO exception as the mind of the legislator to his rule when you wrote quoting Pius XII Authoritatively taught that the canonically valid Conclave had “to meet by the 18th DAY AFTER THE DEATH OF THE Vicar of Christ, WITHOUT ANY POSSIBILITY OF EXCEPTION, to begin the business of the election of the next Roman Pontiff. This had to occur with whatever number of Cardinals were then present in Rome. PERIOD AND END. ”
Now this was written in Dec 1945 and within 2 years after he wrote it Pius XII implied from witnessing WWII first hand and seeing the A-Bomb launched on Catholics in Japan -that literally the whole college of Cardinals could get blown up and the city of Rome destroyed maybe in getting ready for a papal election after he had written it would have to happen in 18 days to elect the next pope. So would Pius XII want there to be no possibility of electing another pope just BECAUSE IT MIGHT GO BEYOND THE 18 DAY MARK?? He stated here:**************Allocution given on 30 January 1949, Pius XII said to the pupils of the secondary schools of Rome: “If there should ever come a day – We say this as a matter of pure hypothesis – when the physical reality of Rome were to crumble; if ever this Vatican Basilica, the symbol of the one, invincible, and victorious Catholic Church, were to bury beneath its ruins the historical treasures and the sacred tombs it enshrines, even then the Church would not, by that fact, be overthrown or undermined; the promise of Christ to Peter would always remain true, the Papacy would continue unchanged, as well as the one, indestructible Church founded on the Pope alive at that time. Thus it is: Rome the Eternal in the supernatural and Christian sense, is superior to the Rome of history. Her supernatural and eternal truth are superior to and independent of the historic City. Its nature and its truth do not depend on it.” Allocution to Roman students, January 30, 1949 (as cited in Papal Teachings: The Church, Selected and Arranged by the Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, trans. Mother E. O’Gorman [Boston: Daughters of St. Paul, 1962 by Mother E. O’Gorman], p. 641 NOR DOES THE PERMANCY OF APOSTOLIC SUCCESION DEPEND ON THE TECHNICAL ASPECTS OF ANY ONE PAPAL ELECTION GONE AWRY!
You are a legalist who denies that the Church will be carried on even though there is a horrible cataclysm of either an apostasy or a physical bombing of St. Peters and the College of Cardinals way back in 1958 and you are just wrong. You say it cannot happen because of what you misapply with Pope Pius XII statement 18 day rule.
That is like saying your house is burning down so you have to stay in it because your dad told you before he left “That you could not leave it till he gets back!” So In Caritas in this case would your dad want you to obey his rule or die????? Come on be real! The bad guys were disobeying Pius XII 18 day rules but that doesn’t mean that later on Pius XII wouldn’t want the the good guy Bishops to elect a true pope or true Bishops for the House of God when they were able to.
When the Pharisees attacked Jesus apostles because they were working to get food on the Sabbath day which was “illegal for the Jews” TECNICALLY WE SEE THE MIND OF LEGISLATOR NAMELY THE SECOND PERSON OF THE BLESSED TRINITY JESUS CHRIST below
Mark 2:23And it came to pass again, as the Lord walked through the corn fields on the sabbath, that his disciples began to go forward and to pluck the ears of corn. 24And the Pharisees said to him: Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? 25And he said to them: Have you never read what David did when he had need and was hungry, himself and they that were with him? 26How he went into the house of God, under Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the loaves of proposition, which was not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave to them who were with him? 27And he said to them: The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath. 28Therefore the Son of man is Lord of the sabbath also.
So by Christ’s same reasoning when he criticized the legalism of the Pharisees, In Caritas the papal elections was made for the Church, and NOT the Church made for the “technical rules” (which are important) during papal elections- the END IS NOT THE PAPAL ELECTION RULES BUT GETTING A POPE FOR THE CHURCH (when the false churchmen disobey the rules set up by the previous true pope) ITSELF SO THAT THE CHURCH CONTINUES AND HER APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION CONTINUES FOR THE END OF TIME –PERTUALLY AS VATICAN I STATES- even when bad clerics ignore the rules and elect a heretic. We can still get one as Paul IV told us even if the whole college of cardinals elect a heretic and we continue to withhold our obedience to false popes at any time until a true one is elected.
Is Christ going to let us starve now any more than he allowed his apostles to starve because of a technicality in the law??? No. The Church is going to go on and continue with a true Hierarchy (albeit very few) NO MATTER WHAT SHENANIGANS HAPPEN IN PAPAL ELECTIONS as Pius XII said that “even then the Church would not, by that fact, be overthrown or undermined; the promise of Christ to Peter would always remain true, the Papacy would continue unchanged” and as I repeat the perennial Church teaching (which you deny) that Christ’s Apostolic Succession in the Church will continue till the end of time. No one knows except our Lord just when the last day of human history arrives.
Joseph a Christian,
Yes your comments are the truth and the Church is going to continue with true apostolic Succession on the face of this earth till Christ returns and from what I have heard Castor Mayer did take the Sede Vacantist position and told people after he had helped Archbishop Lefebvre consecrate the four Bishops he told people after the consecrations ” We have no pope, we have no pope.”
A Simple Beggar ,
I do agree with much of what you say but greatly reduced does no mean nil or zero or else the 1582 Rheims bible is lying and that can NOT be true. The conclave was given over the enemies but that does NOT preclude apostolic Succession continuing or the possibility of a future true pope it just means we don’t have a true pope right now but we have to have apostolic succession. We are in the great Chastisement.
In Caritas
I do not complain about the length of any papal document even if it is long. I enjoy reading papal documents and I hope you do to because they are telling us the truth and what we must believe even if some of them are long. I do not complain about their length. I like them and I spend a great deal of time learning from them. Some are short and some are long and those are objective facts.
I agree Lynda I keep waiting for what you have said and praying for it. We need to reform our own lives.
my2cents,
What you said is all that you can do to reject the VII church. I do not know where you live so I can not advise you where to go for Holy Mass specifically. Things are very complex and there is an eclipse going on so it is not going to be easy to see falsehood from the truth. Keep praying the rosary and God will help you to know where to go and what to do. If you do not live near a true Mass then pray your rosary and pray your Latin English missal. Here is a good site which will give you the pre 1962 Divine Office online https://divinumofficium.com/cgi-bin/horas/Cofficium.pl
The Church is still on earth and keep the faith God will not give you stones when you ask for bread.
Marie:
Neither IC nor I used the expression, “Apostolic Succession is dead”. That’s a misrepresentation, to say the least.
We only pointed out the fact that Apostolic Succession is only passed on and through the authority of true Popes. Only the authority of a true Pope can verify and/or make legitimate those who are true Bishops and Priests, and not laymen, because it comes from the Lord Himself. He chooses.
It would be sheer folly from a human point of view to make those judgements on our own, especially in the long 60 year absence of the last true Pope Pius XII. It’s impertinent and presumptuous to usurp the authority of a Pope, and make those judgement calls, deciding who is legit, and who is not, then run ahead and take “sacraments”. You don’t know, are not infallible, and will without doubt make dreadful mistakes; what if you are wrong, and engaging in a false Mass? Well, you don’t have to take those chances, because it’s not given to us to make those big decisions. Just be faithful.
We should be more concerned with preserving the honor of the Lord, before ourselves, think about His Body, and all the suffering Saints, and accept that suffering for His sake. Just like those Desert Fathers did.
St. Simeon the Stylite.
But no, many laymen still insist, and persist, that in the absence of a Pope, they may take it upon themselves to take his place, and go ahead and make those high judgements. Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread, indeed.
But please reconsider, for the sake of your souls.
Ok.
Heaven help us in our suffering.
My2Cents,
Your statement is very accurate that “Vatican II was not hijacked. It did what it was intended to do.” And contrary to What In Caritas said that it was “an afterthought”. It actually was very much a forethought and accomplished exactly what the Secret Societies of Organized naturalism intended to do by the apostate Canon Roca here when he said, “An immolation is in the offing which will be a solemn expiation. The Papacy will succumb; it will fall beneath the sacred knife forged by the Fathers of a last Council. The papal Caesar is a Victim crowned for sacrifice.” .” (Roca: Glorieux Centenaire, p. 455) https://books.google.com/books?id=VQMhnUr_zJsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Roca:+Glorieux+Centenaire&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUgIjX86bOAhVKOMAKHVeUDKEQuwUIKjAB#v=onepage&q=immolation&f=false
The only thing he got wrong my2Cents is that it would be a permanent condition and that the papacy would be dead forever. For just as Christ rose from the dead the Church will rise up and be restored as she is only being eclipsed and we will see this restoration if not us then our children.
Roca said this way back in the late 1800’s and now it has come to pass:
“The old Papacy will break the silence of the hour when there will be the end to all evangelization (Bergoglio’s no proselytism) for this glorious fulfillment. (Could this be the new ecumenism and interreligious dialogue?) Then, like turning over in his grave, Peter will verify the oracle of christ. He will ‘confirm his brethren,’ that is to say, all Christian people, in the new ways in which their Redeemer has brought them. (The New Evangelization?) He will consecrate modern civilization: he will proclaim it the daughter of the Church..” (The Civilization of Love which John Paul II spoke about?)
“Announcing its own demise, the Roman Papacy will ….divest itself of its old form,…for the better procedures of the NEW PONTIFICATE OF THE NEW CHURCH AND OF THE NEW PRIESTHOOD, WHICH IT WILL ITSELF ESTABLISH CANONICALLY, BEFORE BREATHING ITS LAST BREATH… THE OLD PAPACY AND THE OLD PRIESTHOOD WILL ABDICATE VOLUNTARILY BEFORE THE PONTIFICATE AND BEFORE THE PRIESTS OF THE FUTURE…”
“It is necessary that there be a disengagement and that the LAW OF EVOLUTION takes its divine course in the open cycle by the Holy Gospel under the foot of the NEW HUMANITY. The WORLD CHURCH IS THE SHAPER OF THIS GENERAL RENEWAL.” (Roca: Glorieux Centenaire p 462-469)
“NOT A PONTIFF OF FAITH OR OF HOPE, BUT A PONTIFF OF THE GNOSIS OR OF ESOTERIC SCIENCE.” (Roca: Le Socialisme Chretein 5 July 1891). What of the ambiguous French statement by John Paul II that evolution was more than just a theory? What of his study of Teilhard de Chardin? He seems to admire him given his Sign of Contradiction statement p.21 and sending Cardinal Cassoroli to Teilhard’s posthumous birthday party bash in 1981 who praised his influence on Vatican II see http://www.escribe.com/religion/catholictradition/m3484.html “The Pope & Teilhard” from Marian Horvat as quoted from Atila Sinke Guimarães Animus Delendi I available from Tradition in Action. Canon Roca’s books were placed on the Index because of his promotion of heterodoxy and esoteric “social gospel” and his avowed advocation of socialism. In January 26 1889, the condemnation decree and of placement by the Holy Office of Roca’s three books on the Index : The Christ, The Pope and the Democracy 1884; The fatal Crisis and the good day of Europe 1885; The end of the former World. 1886 The fourth work, The New World ( Glorious Centenary) 1889 , was the most heterodox one, was not understood in this decree, for it again was not edited.
What Roca didn’t talk about though was the counter revolution by priests and faithful who would reject the counterfeit church of this Council which would usher in the Great apostasy of this phony religion of Scientism and Mother Earth Pachamama UN-holy, One World Church of Lucifer which is thank God, here only for a limited time and will be slayed by the breath of Christ.
Marie,
What i also appreciate is that Bishop Antonio voted NO, against all the Vatican 2 documents. He had been fighting communist tyrants and unfaithful modernists long before V2, therefore he recognized the evils taking place at the council.
His faithfulness before, during and after 1958/Roncalli, gives us an example that at least 1 bishop kept his diocese loyal to Christ our King.
Caritas is in error. His hypothesis is flawed.
Dear Marie,
I see you like to research as do I. So that we can be clear that your Sacraments are valid, can you do us a favor and dig a bit and find out who ordained your priests and in what Rite, and also then when that Bishop was consecrated and by whom, and so on to the Bishop who consecrated him, back in time all the way prior to Pope Pius X’s death? You need not state where you attend, I’m (we’re) more concerned with the Bishops involved. This will help tremendously.
Thank you.
ASB
So sorry, I meant Pius XII. Bishop’s names are key, not your priests and where you attend as that is your privacy.
james_o and In Caritas,
This is what In Caritas said TO ME AND OTHERS, “Antichrist and the desolation which he has left as his aftermath, while prophesied by Daniel, in this now scorched and barren world, as without Apostolic Succession since Oct., 27, 1958, and now unto the Last Day. Amen. Alleluia. This loss of Apostolic Succession is Authoritatively taught in, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, which you remain blind to as an heretic, as Authoritatively taught in, “Satis Cognitum”. Amen. That my friend is tantamount to saying THE world is WITHOUT APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION AND IT AINT EVER COMING BACK AFTER 1958! OR or to put your words another way IC- APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION IS DEAD.
Now james_o your friend In Caritas is wrong on another point because the actual final Anti-Christ has NOT gained total power and revealed himself just yet. And it is for you and your friend In Caritas to prove otherwise.
Granted we have had many small anti-Christs already but as yet we have not seen THE anti-Christ take total power over anything yet to make as In Caritas said, “ a scorched and Barren world as WITHOUT Apostolic succession since Oct., 27, 1958, and now unto the Last Day. Amen !!!
This IC said would happen just because of IC implication of an 18 day command to elect a pope according to Pius XII Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis” which according james-o to your friend “IC then we can NEVER GET APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION BACK BECAUSE ACCORDING TO HIM IT IS LOST, THE MASS IS LOST AND THE PAPACY IS LOST BECAUSE WE HAVE THE DEATH OF THE FINAL VICAR AND HERE IS THE PROOF YOUR FRIEND SAID THAT IN HIS OR HER OWN WORDS
and I quote In Caritas:
“Pope Pius XII, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, circa 1945, which infallibly as Authoritatively proclaims, that Apostolic Succession WAS FOREVER LOST on Oct. 27, 1958, 18 days after the death of the LAST and FINAL TRUE VICAR of Christ in this world. Amen.”
Guess what james_o Pius XII never claimed what your mistaken friend In Caritas said he said!!!!!!!! And your friend would have to prove that “the antichrist is in the world right now scorching the earth.” I believe the spirit of anti-Christ is in the world as you have astutely pointed out but it remains to be seen whether the actual PERSON OF ANTICHRIST HAS ARRIVED.
And here james_o your friend In Caritas said here “It is all here and in play, as it has been evolving in its utter hideousness, as it has since that horrific as prophetic day fulfilled, Oct. 27, 1958, when Apostolic Succession was FOREVER LOST to this Godless world in utter Apostasy.”
I agree that the we won’t say it “has hit the fan” with this Great Apostasy and it is here or at least the beginning of it and there has been a world- wide loss of the Catholic faith with a great majority of the faithful. However, apostolic Succession is “Not dead or forever lost” or whatever nonsense either of you want to believe just because of the Great Apostasy otherwise the promises of Christ would be false instead of you two.
I will take Christ promise of giving us through His One, Holy Catholic And apostolic Church His Apostolic Succession till the end of time. And no I do NOT believe according to the 18 day rule that Pius XII put in as a general rule that by obeying this rule after the fact it means you can never get a valid pope later because a bunch of mixed up Cardinals failed to elect a true pope within “18 days” of Pius XII death!!!!! My gosh any child in a burning house would not follow a Dad’s rule before he left to “stay home till I get back” as I said in my other post and the Dad if he were a good one would be happy the child did not obey a technical command but rather a command to live life to the fullest which includes not burnign to death!!! Pius XII clearly did not mean it as you are taking it.
So technically you two didn’t use that EXACT phraseology “apostolic succession is dead” you in essence said my paraphrase of your bull or if you like -your friends bull.
Ok you and him have been very clear about your error and you are probably too proud to say that you made a mistake or “you stand corrected” NEVER mind the fact you would not answer my honest question in A) I am asking you sincerely to give me one Church father or Pope that said that Apostolic Succession is ceased before the end of time? Would you like to answer that now?? Since you are trying to back track?? I have pretty much researched it and what I am telling people is what the Church teaches. I submit my belief to the teachings of the Catholic Church that Apostolic Succession is in the world till the end of time and that there are today still true successors of the Apostles on this earth with or without jurisdiction. Ok so the kids and the dad’s may very well be out of the house (jurisdiction in Diocese) trying to survive in caves (little chapels) while we have these massive wild fires in woods and cities (Church) as another little analogy for you in order to survive. End of true story.
Of course; it was always that the majority are to be saved, and the majority who are on the right path. (Smh)
The Apostles and Disciples who lived, walked, talked and ate with Jesus Christ, up to and including the Last Supper where He stated that His Sacred Body would be given up for them, and KNEW THE SCRIPTURES, COULDN’T UNDERSTAND nor SEE what was really going on throughout His Passion and death, and ran and hid and despaired that He was taken from them. They couldn’t even fathom that Mary Magdalene might have seen Him, risen from the dead, and YET many of you dare to even IMAGINE that WITHOUT Christ’s Voice in His Magisterium you can get this mess right??? Give me a break!
The Church is in the tomb, and it’s Head has been suspended; the public (per Canon Law public means 10 or more people) Holy Sacrifice on earth has been suspended as per Scripture, just as Christ was suspended over the earth on the Cross, so His blood could pour out for many. The Sacrifice has FAILED for the reasons proven (Marie you didn’t answer me), yet Christ the Eternal High Priest continues to offer Himself to the Father THROUGHOUT ALL OF THIS.
Sin, the lack of the Supernatural Gift of Faith, pride and more pride, attachment to this world, attachment to one’s own opinion, to one’s wretched life and one’s wretched PLANS make one BLIND.
>>>>If anyone is going to dare to lead others in these matters by guiding them to receive Sacraments, then you had better do your research and be prepared to state the line of Bishops from whom your pastors come prior to making any recommendations whatsoever. That means names and who consecrated who and when and so on. We poor, wretched souls need PROOF, or you had better stop typing and step away from the keyboard because you’re only digging your own hole deeper.<<<<
PROVE THE APOSTOLICITY OF YOUR BISHOPS.
Dear Marie,
Only once the Pope is taken out of the way can the “operation of error” of 2 Thess Ch. 2 take hold of the members of the Church, the majority of which “love not the Truth”, NOR THE CROSS. Without the Pope from whom ALL jurdisdiction and power flows, ALL that’s VISIBLE is an OPERATION OF ERROR and the DECEPTION of all deceptions.
A Simple Beggar, I don’t have to tell you for you know that I am not the magisterium and I am not under scrutiny by a “lay court” on this forum by those who take umbrage at what I say. I do what I can practically in dealing with this horrible nightmare- this great Apostasy and I try to do right but I realize I am fallible and beg God to help me persevere as all the faithful who ever did. Almighty God will judge me as he will judge all of us. I know you are seeking the truth like we all are and God knows that. I believe that all the Bishops who resisted the Vatican II Church and NO Mass up until the day they died and were validly consecrated & ordained under Pius XII and were in good standing with him while they were alive are the men (priests and Bishops ) that we need to seek out or their successors who followed them (or their principles and were validly ordained) in their keeping of the Catholic faith whole and entire- I am not going to name traditional groups of these priests and Bishops although I have alluded to the one who rejected the false reforms of VII and false popes like Castro Mayer. I also know that in their personal life the clergy men who resisted Vatican II and the Vat II false popes may themselves have fallen on the last day of their life but God will judge them not me- I have seen some folks on this forum attack them and I will not. I think that Castro Mayer was a man to follow and get sacraments from and he got excommunicated for his rejection of the New Conciliar VII Religion which was in apostasy out of the Catholic Church from the get go. Unfortunately, at the time people did not realize it was the Great Apostasy at first and we probably wouldn’t have either. However with that said not everyone that was consecrated or ordained by Castro Mayer followed His narrow and Catholic way.
I am NOT a theologian and I sure don’t pretend to be and I am not the judge or gatekeeper for all of these NO clerics as to their salvation or the people who follow them because every one of them can repent up until the day they die as we can who are seeking out the true faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and trying our best to reject modernism. God will handle all of us. I am a simple lay woman trying to make sense out of a Mess that was handed to me and yes all of us. I think that people should avoid the NO clergy no matter how well-meaning or conservative because either knowingly or unknowingly a fraud was also perpetrated by them or against them also and we need to pray for them that they will get out of the Mystery Babylon church also known as the Rome will lose the faith sect that our Lady of La Salette warned us of. We are not leaving the Catholic Church if we resist this Church but in doing so we should not say that it is ok to ever recognize and resist a true pope as Pope Pius XII said in Mortalium Animos that we have to “recognize and obey” the magisterium which is why Bergoglio’s magisterium is NOT the true Catholic magisterium. I think that the R& R crowd is actually teaching people to rebel against authority even though that is NOT their original intent.
If we even go against one doctrine we are not a Catholic as Pope Leo XIII told us in Satis Cognitum. AS to the Bishops you need to study those who opposed Vatican II during and yes after that false council which fooled so many. Some of these men woke up gradually. Most people including myself that are alive today probably grew up in the false Novus Ordo sect and are just now getting out of it so you will have to do the research yourself in this age of apostasy by looking at these reported traditional Bishops ordination/ consecration lineage as most of these diocese sadly have been overrun by Novus Ordo Bishops who are also mislead even the ones who claim to be traditional like the Novus Ordo ” NO Bishop” Athanasius Schneider who falsely tells you that a pope can be heretic and continue in office. If you don’t think they are misled then I don’t think you would be on this forum. I think what we have to do is take “emergency rations” from the men I spoke about in my opening and make sure that they are consistent with what we know the Church has always said and move on if they are NOT. It would I think be foolish to put all your trust in any one group or person during this Great Apostasy as St. Paul said [1] “And I, brethren, could not speak to you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal. As unto little ones in Christ. [2] I gave you milk to drink, not meat; for you were not able as yet. But neither indeed are you now able; for you are yet carnal. [3] For, whereas there is among you envying and contention, are you not carnal, and walk according to man? [4] For while one saith, I indeed am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollo; are you not men? What then is Apollo, and what is Paul? [5] The ministers of him whom you have believed; and to every one as the Lord hath given.
[6] I have planted, Apollo watered, but God gave the increase. [7] Therefore, neither he that planteth is any thing, nor he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. [8] Now he that planteth, and he that watereth, are one. And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour. [9] For we are God’s coadjutors: you are God’s husbandry; you are God’s building. [10] According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
[11] For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: [13] Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. [14] If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
[12] “Upon this foundation”: The foundation is Christ and his doctrine: or the true faith in him, working through charity. The building upon this foundation gold, silver, and precious stones, signifies the more perfect preaching and practice of the gospel; the wood, hay, and stubble, such preaching as that of the Corinthian teachers (who affected the pomp of words and human eloquence) and such practice as is mixed with much imperfection, and many lesser sins. Now the day of the Lord, and his fiery trial, (in the particular judgment immediately after death,) shall make manifest of what sort every man’s work has been: of which, during this life, it is hard to make a judgment. For then the fire of God’s judgment shall try every man’s work. And they, whose works, like wood, hay, and stubble, cannot abide the fire, shall suffer loss; these works being found to be of no value; yet they themselves, having built upon the right foundation, (by living and dying in the true faith and in the state of grace, though with some imperfection,) shall be saved yet so as by fire; being liable to this punishment, by reason of the wood, hay, and stubble, which was mixed with their building.
So friend do what is right and good in God’s eyes as shown in the pre Vatican II Catholic Church Doctrine in tradition AND SCRIPTURE and if you cannot get valid sacraments where you are at go somewhere else or stay at home if you cannot find it where you live. The people in Japan kept their Catholic faith for 200 years without a Catholic priests till missionary priests were finally sent to them some so I guess we can survive. I am sorry for this length. I am not good at shortening things.
The gang of sedes on this site are a dark choir. Creepy, another demonic false creed produced by Vatican 2.
Almighty God bless Bishop Antonio of Brazil and all other faithful priests, who kept their parishes faithful, before and after the Vatican 2 revolt.
Dear Marie,
It’s funny how you will never answer my questions, but you want me to answer yours (AFTER you refuse to answer mine which always come first). I asked for the benefit of all of those readers whom you are trying to convince that your sacraments are valid and that your assessment is correct regarding the times in which we live. It is therefore a very valid and critical question that needs to be answered on their behalf, but you won’t do it (readers take note). Now, I like you and your intelligence and spunk but you are on the wrong side and I will prove it.
First, and as you are so very confident in your Sacraments and pastors, answer me this: would you be 100% willing to place your right hand on your Bible, and then swear to me in the name of Jesus Christ, that if I were to accompany you to your services, and make a Confession to one of your priests, and receive Communion from his hand, that I would NOT in any way, shape or form be committing idolatry or sacrilege. Yes, or no. Please. If you would NOT do this, then please explain why.
Now, to answer my own question because I don’t think anyone here will even dare to because it will blow their entire premise and position, to which they adhere with all their might in order to save face or simply to do their own will and have their “Sacraments” when God is under no obligation to provide them in the first place (that’s the punishment), and not one here even deserves ANY SUCH THING:
Abp. Marcel Lefebvre:
1) Doubts exist as to the validity of both his Ordination AND Consecration.
2) His presence was witnessed at Freemasonic activities.
3) He signed the most heretical documents of Vatican II. This was unquestionably an act of apostasy and denial of Jesus Christ (Lumen Gentium 16). He was OUTSIDE OF THE CHURCH. Therefore, even if he had valid orders and his consecration was valid, and per Cum ex…” Pope Paul IV (written to AVERT the Abomination of Desolation as stated) ALL of Lefebvre’s ACTIONS were null, void, and WORTHLESS. Period. End of story; argue or contradict this and as THE POPE states YOU INCUR the WRATH of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.
Thuc:
1) He was part of the Novus Ordo Church, offering N.O. Masses and as such was also a public apostate and therefore number 3) above also applies. He, too, was outside of the Church when performing illicit consecrations, so….THE OBVIOUS.
Now per Church teaching heresy and schism DESTROYS APOSTOLICITY. Period. Both of them were apostates, heretics and schismatics. There is NO argument.
Please explain to me how it is that Christ provides bishops for His Church via NON-CATHOLIC HERETICS and APOSTATES?
Joseph a Christian, Amen I totally agree with what you said and the last time a checked Joseph people who take this view are in the minority so I am not sure what you are talking about A Simple Beggar. I do not have to prove the Apostolicity of the priest I go to you. I have to answer to God and to his Church when he judges me when I die just as you will have to answer for your absenting yourself from any assembly of the perpetual and apostolic successors if there is one within a reasonable distance of where you live and no A Simple Begger I would never image that I could ever get anything without the voice of Christ in his perpetual magisterium. The Church will seem to die because it is being eclipsed ASB but that thing that is the VII church is the Bride of FrankiStein false church and IT is what is dead. but here:
As Pope Leo XIII taught in Satis Cognitum:
“If the living magisterium could be in any way false — an evident contradiction would follow, for then God would be the author of error.”And also the First Vatican Council (1870), in the Dogmatic Constitution,
Pastor Aeternus, reaffirmed the teaching of the Fourth Council of
Constantinople:
“And their truth has been proved by the course of history, for in the Apostolic See, the Catholic religion has always been kept unsullied and her teachings kept holy.”
The Catholic Church has a living magisterium “A Simple Beggar” and that thing that installed itself in Rome in 1958 is NOT the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church went down into the catacombs which is a tomb and I have been there to Rome to see it but eventually she will come out of the tomb. There has to be an Apostolic Succession till the end of time ASB and it Does not die ok you even in another post here ” Marie:
Neither IC nor I used the expression, “Apostolic Succession is dead”. That’s a misrepresentation, to say the least.
We only pointed out the fact that Apostolic Succession is only passed on and through the authority of true Popes.
So when there was NO true pope then for very long interregnums of 2 and three years the Church has a passion and we can never get priests or Bishops. You have proved nothing with your statements. I do agree that the Church is in her passion because frauds are trying to crucify her but once Christ installed Peter and the rest of them before he ascended into Heaven he did not say I will not leave you with even a few Bishops on Earth like a Saint John so to speak at the foot of the cross and at the foot of a Church that has descended into the Catacombs so that the perpetual sacrifice appears to no longer be going on but is still being sacramentally re-presented on this earth with a few priests and Bishops in an un-bloody way on a few altars around the world. You might believe that can NOT happen in this Mess of an Apostasy but as you said here:
Christ the Eternal High Priest continues to offer Himself to the Father THROUGHOUT ALL OF THIS and I would add what the church teaches through apostolic Succession till the end of the time.
Dear Marie,
Oh but you do need to prove the Apostolicity of your bishops and validity and licity of your priests, for in typing here you are offering your counsel to many readers. Don’t you think you had better be able to prove that you are not committing nor recommending sacrilege to any poor, confused souls? That your pastors are not, in fact, wolves in sheep’s clothing who have come in through another way. If we must account for every idle word, then what will become of you if you are incorrect and have contributed to the damnation of other poor souls?
It is therefore a question of EXTREME importance and urgency, dear Marie. You cannot deny this. You see, all of this other “stuff” you argue about is merely a distraction from the main crux of the issue…
Dear Marie,
You are speaking to the choir as if I don’t know about La Salette and the importance of the Magisterium and that it is LIVING which is what we have been trying to convey in the first place whereas Tom A would say it is dead with the Pope.
Joseph whom with you agree is a Novus Ordo member. Did you know that?
Eclipse means the Church is BARELY visible and yet you attend VERY PUBLIC (10 or more) Masses. For the sake of the poor readers of your material and your counsel, please answer the questions I have asked.
Dear Marie,
Another thing you keep bringing up is the past. The only thing that matters now is not what happened in the past, but the Laws which have SINCE been enacted to address certain issues and possibilities by the LIVING Magisterium – most notably that of Pope Pius XII. Please keep that in mind and re-evaluate your position in that new light.
The other issue is that of “interregnum”. Did God send an angel from heaven to tell you that this is DEFINITELY an “interregnum”? Because it certainly does not qualify as such.
And lastly, and because of your heavy consideration of prophecy, Sr. Lucia stated on 12/26/57 that it was intimated to her that we are in the last days of the world. The Holy Magisterium teaches that there SHOULD be bishops until the end of time, correct? What if we read it like this: UNTIL…the end of time? Do you follow? You must because you are hardly lacking in the area of intelligence. The phrase then takes on an entirely new meaning, does it not? Each very precise and chosen word spoken by Christ – The Word – heard by us either through the Scriptures/Divine Revelation OR His Perpetual and Living Magisterium carries much weight and any misinterpretation can cause us to stumble.
Now add to that the fact that it HAS been taught by some Church Fathers, Saints and theologians that the Antichrist will usurp the Papacy and set up a false counter-church (see the Benns link for quotes), and the fact that the Church – The City of God – IS and WILL BE the true world and everything else is the chaff at Her service in Her effort to birth Saints into heaven, and then maybe just maybe you might see that you await a horned, world leader-type Antichrist in vain. Afterall and in all REALITY, a true Pope IS the leader of the world. If the deception be so great that even the Elect would be deceived (“if it were possible”), then it’s not going to be so obvious to the vast majority of people, otherwise it wouldn’t be such a grand deception.
Dear Marie – PRAY to the Holy Virgin for guidance and the Truth. Stop assuming that you have it right because I have proven to you that you do not, with the indisputable FACTS about your line of bishops, the originators of which were OUTSIDE THE CHURCH. Your Masses are public acts per Canon Law (10+ people) and as such are advertised in phone directories and elsewhere; they are not hidden from anyone.
Your position simply doesn’t add up. Please pray more and type less. Doubtful Sacraments are NO Sacraments and we must KNOW from whence our pastors come. These are the very BASICS which must be internalized. Will God grant you a tomorrow? Does He see that YOUR WILL is fixed? Or does He read in your heart a good will that is open to being wrong and a willingness to align your will with His Will, once it is discovered? According to St. Thomas Aquinas THIS is a person who has Faith. All of the others have only an “opinion” >in accordance with their own will<, and thus do NOT possess the Supernatural Virtue of Faith.
ASB, This is precisely the question I asked Marie earlier.
I know various “Latin Mass Directories” and have attended some of the Mass centres listed in the Novus Ordo Watch Now What webpage, taking a number of short and long distance flights.
I researched the issues concerning the Thuc consecrations (I found Bishop Jenkin’s argument convincing and Mario’s response insufficient) and concerns about Lefebvre.
Wherever I went I asked God to show me if I was right in going there.
That’s why I added to my question where to go to for valid and licit sacraments the expression “without any doubt whatsoever, because we must not attend doubtful sacraments”. .
It seems to me that to the only way to “remove doubts” is by trying to convince yourself that your chosen path is right and that you have no doubts.
Marie, how do you deal with the question of doubt?
To all a blessed Sunday and
Laudetur Jesus Christus!
Objectively and Divinely speaking, of course Apostolic Succession is never “lost”, because it is the Will and Command of God, The Divine Commission.
But humanly and practically speaking, because of the will of evil men, it can be lapsed or lost, because of rebellion against God, as a punishment for heresy, apostasy, and schism. So yes. it can easily be spoken of as lost, as far as we are concerned.
And, since when, have laymen been given the authority to judge the legality and validity of who has Apostolic Succession, of Bishops and Priests, without a true Pope?
You be the Judge?
I’m sorry, it’s of course Father Jenkins, not Bishop.
Caritas and his gang.
Christ’s Church has no room for deceivers. IC’s handler uses A Simple Begger (or is it A Simple Begger who uses IC’s handler) as a foil to continue the charade, a charade which purports to defend the teaching of Holy Mother Church. Problem is, that teaching cannot be defended by those who are consumed by self-righteousness and malice. Referring to one’s fellows as “freaks” and “fools” is a mortal sin—plain and simple. “Amore mutuo, sicut amavi vos.”
Well, the “creepy, dark choir” are demanding that all those who set up themselves as judges of apostolic succession, have to objectively demonstrate that their chosen “bishops” and “priests” and “sacraments”, are somehow undoubtedly legitimate, and not merely “valid”. And that by their own self-assumed authority, and without the authority of a true Pope.
Because if you can’t, then it’s sacrilegious, and therefore outside of the Catholic Church.
Please enlighten the creepy, dark choir.
James, How does doubt make something certain?
Exactly. There can be not one iota of doubt where the Sacraments are concerned. Therefore the burden of proof lies on your side, not ours.
Bishops who were outside the Church could in no way create Bishops and priests who are inside the Church. This is a metaphysical impossibility and an absurdity, and it’s ultimately laughable how anyone in their right mind could actually believe this after the glaring reality of the contradiction has been pointed out and proven to them.
“All that we see is lies and vanity; the truth of things is in God. What a difference between the ideas of God and our illusions! How can it be that though we are continually warned that every passing event in the world is but a shadow, a figure, a mystery of faith, we always behave in a merely human way and judge events by our natural understanding of them WITH THE RESULT THAT THEY REMAIN AN ENIGMA? We fall into the SNARE like FOOLS instead of lifting our eyes and ascending to the principle, the source, the origin of things, where everything has another name and other qualities, where everything is supernatural, divine and sanctifying; where everything is part of the plenitude of Jesus Christ; where each occurrence is a stone of the heavenly Jerusalem, where everything is a means of entrance into that marvelous city. We live as we see and as we FEEL; and we render useless that LIGHT OF FAITH which would lead us so surely through the LABYRINTH OF CLOUDS and images among which we LOSE OUR WAY like IDIOTS, because we do NOT walk by the LIGHT OF FAITH which desires NOTHING BUT GOD and what is HIS and which LIVES forever BY Him, passing beyond and ABANDONING WHAT IS BUT AN IMAGE.”
Self Abandoment to Divine Providence, Fr. J. P. De Caussade, SJ, 1675-1751
By it’s absence.
More:
“Faith is the interpreter of God; without the illumination which it brings, nothing can be understood of the language in which creatures speak to us. That language is a cypher in which nothing is apparent but confusion; it is a thorn-bush from which no one could imagine God speaking. But Faith makes us see, as in the case of Moses, the fire of Divine charity burning in the midst of the thorns; faith gives us the key to the cypher and enables us to discover in that confusion the marvels of heavenly wisdom. Faith gives a face as of Heaven to the whole earth, and by it our hearts are ravished and transported to converse in Heaven.
Faith is the light of time; alone it attains Truth without seeing it; it touches what it does not feel, it beholds this world as if it were not there, seeing something quite different to what appears on the surface. Faith is the key of the treasury, the key of the abyss of divine wisdom, the key of the science of God. It is faith that gives the lie to all creatures, it is by faith that God reveals and manifests Himself in all things. It is FAITH THAT divinizes things, which lifts the veil and REVEALS TO US ETERNAL TRUTH.”
Go ahead then and ask Louie whether or not we are one and the same person, you idiotic, miscreant fool you.
No, James, that doesn’t answer my question. What I’m asking you is ….if there is any doubt about the legitimacy of a sacrament, how does that make it certainly outside the church?
Calling a spade a spade using appropriate terminology in defense of the Truth and as a battering ram against heresy and lies for the benefit of others is hardly a mortal sin; however, calumny – on the World Wide Web no less – most certainly is.
The Church teaches that if a person holds any doubt whatsoever regarding the validity and licity of a Sacrament, then IN CONSCIENCE they CANNOT approach, and if they do they commit the mortal sin of sacrilege. Even if the Sacrament was in fact valid AND licit, they still sin thus just as if it were not.
It’s just like the case whereby someone thinks that something is a mortal sin when in fact it is not, but then goes ahead and does it anyway; a mortal sin is still incurred….in conscience.
So much confusion because of the Second Vatican Council. The devil loves confusion.
2Vermont:
I’d like to add one more aspect as well about doubt, in addition to what ASB wrote.
Only a legitimate successor of St. Peter and the Holy Catholic Church alone have a legitimate authority to rule, teach and gather, bind or loose, dispense Sacraments, from the Good Lord Himself, who established the Church. It’s absolute. Your feet are on a Rock.
So it’s part of the unshakable faith of Christians, if your a member of the Catholic Church, in communion with a true Pope, you are in Christ’s Body. So, there can be no room for doubts. They MUST be legitimate, because of their origin. Legitimacy is synonymous with apostolic. No legitimacy, must, by it’s very own nature be outside of the Church, because it’s impossible for the Church Herself to be illegitimate.
So you know absolutely, you are getting the Sacraments. That’s how we are able to worship God publicly with no impediments, and with absolute confidence. In a world filled with thousands of sects.
Now if doubt, which is one of the main tricks from the Devil’s toolbox, can be introduced in any part, he knows it’s a potential faith destroyer. Modernism for example, denies truth is absolute, and that one can know absolute truth, which of course becomes a wrecking-ball, doubt-machine philosophy of it’s own, a faith destroyer par excellence for the powers of evil. They deny the Lord from the get-go.
You are all already too familiar with all the current manifestations of the termites of doubt. Sick to death of them, (no doubt) as well.
Where does the Church teach *any* doubt? Where does the Church teach that mortal sin puts one outside the Church?
According to Pius XII, the specific mortal sins that puts one outside the Church:
Mystici Corporis Christi- (#23)
“For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such
as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”
As far as where the Church teaches about “no doubt”, well, She teaches against doubt everywhere, because doubt is the very opposite of faith. So I’m not sure what you are looking for, when you ask “any doubt”?
Do you mean, taking sacraments according to so-called “probability?”
You poor, poor, miscreant fool, Marie Tageye,
Jesus the Christ commanded: “You will KNOW them by their fruits”. Further, He commanded that the evil trees would be cast by Him into the fire, Marie Tageye. Your fruit is evil and Jesus the Christ commanded that a good tree cannot bear evil fruit, just as an evil tree cannot bear good fruit. Your reasoning is abysmally erroneous, as this remains in the objective realm of judgment as commanded by the Incarnate Son of God. Amen. Alleluia. You are a miscreant Marie as you belittle and malign the divine, living, perpetual, Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. Amen. We are commanded the SAME assent of faith for the governance and discipline of the Vicar of Christ as in his teaching of the Faith and Morality. Amen. Alleluia. This is infallibly taught by the only Vatican Council and affirmed by Pope Pius XII in his Encyclical, “Ad Apostolorum Principis”. Amen. You continue to write utter platitudes of profound error. You demonstrate not one iota of ANYTHING from the Magisterium. All of your gibberish is your own compilation of error contrived from theologians and the Holy Writ, as if you are the infallible truth, you poor, poor miserable, miscreant fool. You continue to talk when you should be listening you poor, miserable wretch. ASB asked you questions which you simply MUST be able to answer, at the pain of Hell for the continued mortal sin of receiving doubtful sacraments in sacrilege, you miserable fool. You are on your sure and certain personal path to Hell Marie Tageye, as these truths are objective, as your fruit is evil, and you think that linguistic terms which you utterly deserve in true justice as an heretic, are harsh. You imbecilic fool on your way to Hell, as you receive, “the operation of error to believe lying”, as your fruit is evil. Amen. It is your burden of proof Marie. ASB is witnessing Catholic Truth for you and you belittle it and again with your pseudo-intellectual gibberish as platitude after platitude after platitude of utter non-Catholic non-sense. Amen.
You wrote this about the Papal Election Law of Pope Pius XII, (“Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis” ) written with his full Apostolic Authority, requiring our utter and absolute, as perfect submission to it, and at the very pain of Hell:
“This IC said would happen just because of IC implication of an 18 day command to elect a pope according to Pius XII Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis” .”
Okay now you poor, poor, miscreant fool Marie Tageye, the floor is now yours. Demonstrate now for all eyes to see, precisely how Pope Pius XII somehow DID NOT MEAN WHAT HE MEANT, when he utterly as literally and pristinely commanded that the business of electing the next Roman Pontiff MUST BEGIN BY DAY 18, WITHOUT ANY DISTINCTIONS, THEREFORE WITHOUT ANY EXCEPTIONS, and with the consequence of ANYTHING occurring apart from his precise commands, as being, “NULL and VOID”. Amen. Alleluia. This was done with his absolute Apostolic Authority with the keys to bind and loose. Amen. He even commanded that it was so important to begin at the very latest by day 18, that whatever number of Cardinals were present in Rome MUST MEET by day 18, not waiting for any others to arrive. The floor is yours’, poor, poor, miscreant Marie. Save your soul you miserable wretch. Submit to the divine Authority of the LIVING and PERPETUAL Magisterium, which is the Incarnate Son of God present here on earth as Mystically, with His true children unto the Last Day. Nowhere is it commanded that Apostolic Succession remains unto the Last Day, as that would contradict the prophet Daniel, the inerrant Early Church Fathers in unanimity on Daniel, and the Apostle Paul, you miserable fool. Demonstrate also now for all to see Magisterial teaching which commands Apostolic Succession present unto the Last Day, you fool. In caritas.
Joseph a Christian,
I really do not understand how anyone could NOT appreciate and love what Bishop Castro Mayer did. He kept his faithful from the Novus Ordo false counter church. Now when he started out I don’t know that he understood that John XXIIII and Paul VI were Anti-popes/ more accurately called false Popes. But by the time that John Paul II got there he understood that JP II was NOT a true Pope.
Now please listen to me everyone who look at my post not because I deserve to be listened to but because like you I strive to know and love Jesus Christ. Satan wants traditional Catholics or better yet just “Catholics” as Catholics were always known to be before Vatican II disunited us – Satan wants to get us to attack each other and call each other heretics because guess what we all understand as the old Testament prophet and Jesus said “When the Shepherd is struck the sheep will be scattered.” and We all know that the impious hands have ceased the thrown of Peter and set up their abominable throne of impiety and set up a false church of VII. Now don’t you think that Castro Mayer understood that??? I know Joseph a Christian that you understand that Castro Mayer could see the writing on the wall and he did what he could at that time to keep people out of the false Conciliar Church.
Yet Joseph perhaps somehow the Home Aloner’s feel so betrayed and they want to attack you and me because they think we might be just like the Vat II church. These Home aloners on this forum sure seem to be saying that even though the Bishops who were criticizing Vatican II at the time and trying to get who they thought was the true pope at that time(namely Paul IV) to make the documents conform to the true Catholic Church, Bishops like Bishop Antonio de Castro Mayer, Archbishop Geraldo de Proença Sigaud, Archbishop Lefebvre all petitioned Paul VI and asked him in 1963 to condemn Atheistic Communism with 218 Bishops signatures and, another time Siqued with 510 prelates asked the Council to consecrate Russia then lastly October 9, 1965 to add a new paragraph to deal with communism in Gaudium et spes that these said clergy were ALSO PART OF THE GREAT APOSTASY. I really don’t think these men understood what the Apostasy that had hit them really was or that Paul VI himself was an apostate sodomite & revolutionary put there to tare down the Catholic Church. Back then they did not have fax machines, wi- fi and blogs like this one to enlighten them with Home Aloner material.
Archbishop Lefebvre by the late 1970’s understood that this was an all out French Revolution inside the Catholic Church which was meant to bury the Church. He reluctantly on the behest of seminarians started a traditional Catholic seminary with the approval of the Conciliar authorities but later he was suspended by the late 1970’s and he was telling his own people we have reason to believe that the pope is NOT the pope! He gave some of the priests in his society like Fr. Cekada and Fr. Sanborn, Fr. Jenkins, Fr. Dolan the idea that Paul VI was a false pope but he waffled and Lefebvre kicked them out over a disagreement about them wanting to use an earlier Missal than the 1962 Missal not necessarily over sede vantism (according to Fr. Jenkins and Fr. Cekada who talked to Lefebvre about this issue). Then later Lefebvre got excommunicated in 1988 under JP II for consecrating 4 Bishops who he believed would carry out the traditional Catholic faith and the traditional Latin Mass albeit was the 62 version which was the trial balloon for Jn XIII and Bugnini.
I do not attend an SSPX Church but I am not going to throw stones at Archbishop Lefebvre and say he was a Mason and all this other nonsense which is actually spreading rumors which HAVE NOT BEEN PROOVED AT ALL.
I get that “In Caritas” and james_o and some others are suspicious of the SSPX ( I don’t like there current direction myself and I pray that they don’t unite with Apostate Rome) and they think that Archbishop Lefebvre was meant to keep Catholics in the false Conciliar Church by NOT coming out the way they would and for sure saying that the Conciliar Popes were false popes and being more consistent and I get that the Home Aloners think Lefebvre should have stayed home and said ‘private Masses” and just gone along with the AMBOMINATION OF DESOLATION JUST BECAUSE A TRUE POPE WAS NOT ELECTED 18 DAYS AFTER PIUS XII COMMANDED BECAUSE OF A TECHNICALITY and because frightened people who don’t trust ANY traditional Catholic Bishops or priests now wanted him to stay at home and not try to education Catholics in the traditional doctrines of the Church, but I am glad for one that he didn’t do what In Caritas and james_o wanted him to do. Otherwise I don’t think we would have trad priests in the Roman Rite. Let the wrecking crew destroy the body of Christ right O GREAT Magisterium Home Aloners because of your interpretation of the “passion of the Church” just let the corpse go and not try to save it.
Archbishop Lefebvre was a flawed man to be sure, but he was a man who brought Christ and his Catholic Church to a part of Africa that had a good many Muslims and some Catholics and Pius XII trusted him enough to put him in the position he was in. He was NOT a freemason and there is no REAL proof for that. Bishop of Autun Talleyrand was a freemason and was a womanizer, became involved in the French Revolution and was excommunicated and just before he died, he asked for forgiveness from a priest , received the last rites, abjured ALL HIS ERRORS and was buried in in Notre-Dame Chapel,[25] near his Castle of Valençay. And guess what In Caritas and A Simple Beggar THE CHURCH NEVER REDID ANY OF THE PRIESTS OR BISHOPS Talleyrand ORDAINED OR CONCECRATED and so ARCHBISHOP LEFEBVRE’S ORDERS WERE CONFERRED VALIDLY AND LICITLY BOTH WHILE HE WAS AN ARCHIBSHOP OR BISHOP UNDER PIUS XII AND under the emergency perpetual apostolic succession which the Church provides for in an interregnum/ apostasy.
Now you home Alone guys want to talk about the passion and agony in the church and the great Apostasy but when a Bishop wants to come along and try to do his little part in the COUNTER REVOLUTION AGAINST THE CONCILIAR church you want to throw stones at him and say Lefebvre is from the Devil! Well you are dead wrong on this. I happen to agree with much of what you say but you guys act like you have sour grapes stuck in your mouth with syrup of ipecac and you want to give it to “the little” ones who are actually beginning to wake up from the Conciliar ipecac that they nearly choked to death on and now they are trying to get out of the Novus Ordo false church and try to get some air and you slap them down call them miscreants, morons and devils and you think you are going to get converts to your “minority”!!!! YOU wonder why you are in a minority??? Human Beings are social creatures and when worship of God is done as Jesus said when two or more are gathered in my name there am I in their midst. I get that the gathering needs to be Catholic.
You are so sure you are headed to heaven and everyone else is headed to hell and I just think you ought to be more humble and stop attacking people who actually led people out of false sacraments and Vatican II sect. And I get that you think all of the traditional sacraments people get from Independent Chapels and SSPX, and CMRI and Pius V, and Strict Observance are false priests and false sacraments and false sects because you just know that Pius XII said you had to elect a Pope after 18 days from his death and Apostolic Succession is dead and the anti-Christ is here and maybe in the confusion that you could also be in other forces may even be unleashing you on everyone trying to find the truth in the light that they have been given by God as they struggle to study the faith.
I am NOT condemning you for staying home alone and I might do that myself someday but it will not be because of some of the false statements you have made. I just take umbrage at how miserably demeaning and name calling, some of you on this forum present your views and how you attack your fellow Catholics. I have heard you attack people who want to know the truth and are trying to find true priests in this Apostasy when yes there are VERY FEW valid sacraments given.
And by the way I go to a very OLD independent priest who went to the seminary in the 1950’s but I don’t need to defend him because he has already been attacked by the Novus Ordo Bishop just as Archbishop Lefebvre has been and a good many priests who were ordained by Lefebvre have been as well. I don’t need to give you any pedigree of this valid priest who gives me the sacraments. He was kicked out of his diocese, and maligned because he would NOT say the Novus Ordo way back in the late 1960’s. They took away his retirement and persecuted him SO LAY OFF!!!! Lefebvre, Mayer and Thuc with all their faults did not use anonymous names like some of us have to protect them from public scrutiny and criticism.
Oh and I need to remind anyone that St. Vincent Ferrer was ordained by a future antipope Cardinal de Luna who became Antipope Benedict XIII and had no jurisdiction at all during the Great Western Schism when the pope moved to France . By the was St. Vincent was NOT “sent” by the True pope of the Catholic Church but by a Cardinal De Luna in 1379 who ordained him and who later became an anti-pope Benedict III. Vincent Ferrer believed that anti-Pope Benedict XIII was a true pope for a long time until the council of Constance when he did withdraw his support of Benedict because he wanted the schism to end and called for a new Conclave during the Great Western schism to solve the confusion in the Church. Here is proof for you Home Aloner’s that jurisdiction is not some legalistic thing that God is going to condemn a great Saint like St Vincent of Ferrer who heard confessions, preached and converted people to the Catholic faith all while believing in an anti-pope as the proper authority and NOT being ordained under anyone in union with the true Pope at that time. And by the way folks NO one made any of those priests ordained by Tallyrand or anti-pope Benedict XIII redo their ordinations and NO one told them to stay home alone either!. Things are more complex than what some of these Home Aloners want to make it.
Now I realize we are in an apostasy while in St Vincent of Ferrer’s time it was “Schism” which was the problem but St. Vincent of Ferrer was also dealing with heresy because John Huss a heretic priest was burned at the stake in 1415. But honest to Pete some of you Home Aloners sound like you would burn Archbishop Lefebvre at the stake if you could because in your view “he kept people with the Conciliar Popes” even though when JP II did the Assisi I Prayer meeting Lefebvre said there were ANTICHRISTS IN THE VATICAN and yet you guys think Lefebvre had fangs on him and was the devil’s agent! Gee was St. Vincent of Ferrer the devils agent too!! Give me a break! Maybe in your view they should have burned St. Vincent at the stake because he followed an anti-pope and heard confessions when he didn’t have jurisdiction from the true Pope at that time. I guess he wasn’t 100 percent into the rules either. God help us all to see the truth if we are in error. The true Church is much more tolerant than we would be but I agree that the true Church is not tolerant of the spread of heresy or manifest heretics.
A Simple Beggar, If Joseph a Christian attends a Novus Ordo church we can pray for him can’t we?? I don’t think it would be a good idea to hit him over the head if he attends an idult Latin Mass but I would tell him that I would not go to one. On the other hand I really don’t know what Mass Joseph a Christian goes to and I am not the “inquisition” as you some of you Home Aloners seem to be. When he speaks of Castro Mayer perhaps he did not know that Castro Mayer did take the sede Vecantist position by the time he consecrated the 4 Bishops. If we can get out of the NO church then there is hope for anyone. Perhaps ‘A Simple Beggar’ you were never in the NO church if so that is great but most of us can not say that. So A Simple Beggar if that is true I hope that Joseph will look at what I have been saying about the No Church and get out of it. I am new to this forum so I don’t know everyone’s views on things but I am sure not going to throw stones at anyone including you. I agree with a lot of what you say but not everything.
Dear Marie,
Do you even know what true Catholics did during the French Revolution? They stayed home. Why? Because the government/Masonic bishops had not been SENT by the Pope and their true priests were driven into exile or worse and they had no true Masses to attend or Sacraments. They KNEW their faith, and were despised for it – even by their own family members. By far in the minority, they were ostracized, spit upon, cursed at, you name it. The vitriolic hatred spewed forth JUST AS IT DOES HERE.
The French Revolution was a TYPE and a forerunner of our current situation and the end times – the NOW.
Again, Lefebvre cast himself OUTSIDE the Church, for one, by signing the most heretical documents of Vatican II. As such he incurred censures which could ONLY be removed BY A TRUE POPE. Period. A bishop who is outside the Church cannot possibly create Bishops and priests who are at the same time INSIDE the Church. This is absurdity at its best.
Once my eyes were opened I could then see the endless contradictions which spewed forth from his mouth at every turn. I wouldn’t be surprised for one minute if it was discovered that he was one of those agents sent into the Church spoken of by Bella Dodd. What has become of his SSPX today? What happens to a house built upon sand? Marie??
You continue to refer to the past when the past is in fact irrelevant when a later Pope addressed those very issues with new Laws.
I understand, Marie, the desire for a grand “restoration” of the Church where everything is the way it should be and life on earth is just full of Faith and the beauty of it all. As I said I believe we missed that proverbial boat when Our Lady’s requests at Fatima were not followed to the letter, and hence the time of the Antichrist was not delayed and the false church/Abomination of Desoiation was enabled and set up SOONER rather than later, with countless souls being lost because of it. However, you had better let that go because that is not how the end of the story was written; the Way of the Cross ends at Calvary; we are called to follow Christ to complete and total DESOLATION along with the feeling of utter abandonment, and ultimately we deserve nothing more than that for our sins!
May God have mercy on you and me!
Marie Tageye you also wrote this in your screed:
“Now james_o your friend In Caritas is wrong on another point because the actual final Anti-Christ has NOT gained total power and revealed himself just yet. And it is for you and your friend In Caritas to prove otherwise. ”
Oh’ Marie, you poor, poor, obstinate heretic. You actually believe that matters of Faith can be, “proven”? Only a miserable, miscreant, non-Catholic, fool could write such a comment. The Holy Catholic Faith is not, “provable”, you heretical fool. The divine and Holy Catholic Faith is a supernatural Gift which is both freely given and completely undeserved by any and all who actually receive it and they are precious few. It is simply a matter of objective reality as it is, truth thus, that you DO NOT HOLD THE DIVINE FAITH Marie. A miserable wretch as me has no power to prove the divine and Catholic Faith to any one, especially to an heretic, as you prove yourself to be, time and again. Amen. The Incarnate Son of God admonished His disciples for knowing the signs of the weather, while not knowing the signs of the prophetic times. You actually believe that the person of the Antichrist, once revealed, was going to be somehow obvious not only to you Marie, you non-Catholic fool, but to any so called, “Christian”, I suppose. Divine prophesy is analogical in accordance with God’s Will. As The Christ came and all but all were blind to Who He was while in this world, yet they murdered Him on the Cross. So too the Antichrist came and all but all were blind to who he was while in this world, yet they adorned him as if he was a Christ in this world. Poor, poor Marie Tageye, you heretic. You actually believe that the person of Antichrist was to be somehow obvious to most. You utterly miscreant fool. Precious none of this can be somehow, “PROVEN”, to anyone Marie Tageye, rather the requisite to see the prophetic reality as it is revealed, is by divine design and immutable thus, to receive the divine and Catholic Faith. Amen. Alleluia.
You must begin with infallible, divine, living, perpetual, Ordinary and Universal Magisterial teaching, poor, poor, Marie. It is a matter deFide, that the prophetic time would come when the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass would fail, as inerrantly taught by the Early Church Fathers in unanimity. They also taught inerrantly that when the Holy Mass failed, as without any exceptions because there were no distinctions given, this would also be the time of the reign of terror of Antichrist. If you deny this, you then deny the entire Catholic Faith, deFide, as any doctrine denied, is a denial of the entire Catholic Faith. Period and end, as Magisterial teaching in, “Satis Cognitum”. It is a matter of right reason to know the truth, that it is impossible to have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass fail, while at once having Apostolic Succession preserved. There is no precedent for this. You cannot have Blessed Peter in his Successors present is this world or in interregnum, and have the Mass fail. That is impossible and contrary to right reason and again history speaks to this. The contrary thus is also true. You cannot have the Holy Mass present, when Blessed Peter in His Successors is absent, as with the loss of Apostolic Succession, which is prophesied to occur only once and of course, during the reign of Antichrist and his desolation to follow, which continues unto the Consummation of the world unto the Last Day, deFide. Amen. Alleluia. And so what authority do you possess, Marie Tageye, to deem this statement of yours to james__o and me?:
“…the actual final Anti-Christ has NOT gained total power and revealed himself just yet.” Who the hell do you think that you are? Prophesy simply is revealed and only revealed, in its divinely prophesied time, independent of what the heretic, Marie Tageye deems to be so. I pray you assent to the living, divine, perpetual, Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, which is the Incarnate Son of God present here on earth with His true children unto the Last Day. Amen. Alleluia. In caritas.
Dear Marie,
A person is either Catholic or not. If we are Catholic then it is our duty to recognize who is with us and who is not. Expecially today, not everyone who says or thinks they are Catholic is ACTUALLY Catholic. Open your Bible and read what St. Paul instructs us to do about heretics and how we are to treat with them; not all rainbows and ponies now, is it?
Whether or not you agree with me is neither here nor there, for it’s not me you disagree with on points, but Christ’s Voice in His Holy, Living and Perpetual Magisterium. You wish to hold onto your doubtful Sacraments (as they are proven to be). I wish to avoid them because it’s more important to me that I avoid Idolatry and Sacrilege AT ALL COSTS. In doing so I am no worse for the wear as a matter of fact.
I did come out of the N.O. and it was some journey to say the least. But the fact of the matter is I always wanted the Truth. In fact, the entire thread of the story is my quest for Truth, and once I was exposed to Vatican I and the commands of the true Popes, and what the Church actually taught about the nature and role of the Papacy, I said “AHA! Here it is – it was here all the time!” and then embarked on my search for further TRUTH as I wanted to ENSURE that any Sacraments I might receive were VALID and LICIT without a single doubt. Over some time I explored almost every position there is, all the while BEGGING God to never, ever, EVER allow me to commit idolatry with a piece of bread ever, ever again! In fact I told Him that I’d rather DIE! Do you dare to say that He did NOT answer this request of mine but instead fed me a LIE?? No, He did answer me, even to the point where I had what could only possibly be a mystical type of experience at my very LAST “Sede” Mass (one of perhaps 6 maybe 7 at that). Needless to say, I DID NOT receive Communion that day and I never returned. Did you ever read my story about how I asked the Sede priest about jurisdiction and how he reacted? Well, yeah. He was ANNOYED and IRRITATED by an extremely IMPORTANT and INNOCENT question. Another sign from God. When you SINCERELY want THE TRUTH at ANY COST God will NOT give you a lie!
Dear Marie,
One last point for the evening which had come to mind earlier re: Antichrist:
Think about this. IF even the elect would be deceived (“if it were possible”), then what TYPE of person or what ROLE would that person have to be playing in order to deceive even the ELECT (those predestined to be saved by God), if that were possible?
Might that someone or even perhaps some men (for they all perpetuate the Abomination) be all dressed up like a “Pope”, perhaps?
A “Pope” might actually have a shot at the Elect.
And yet again, the obstinate heretic who belittles the absolute Papal Authority of Pope Pius XII in his Apostolic Constitution, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, Marie Tageye,
You demonstrate an hubris the likes of which would almost make Tom A blush, you miserable, imbecilic, obstinate, heretical fool. You belittle the Apostolic Authority of Pope Pius XII as you shudder in fear, you miserable woman. His law is his law, you miscreant fool. He held the keys to bind and loose. God in His infinite divine Providence prepared His true children for the coming of the son of perdition, as the man of sin, and you belittle Christ in this world, as His true Vicar, Pope Pius XII, writing your miserable, effeminate platitudes with your utter caprice, about this or that reason why the Vicar of Christ may have written the Papal Election Law. You miserable wretch. You have NO IDEA, do you, that the divine and living, perpetual Magisterium is the Incarnate Son of God Teaching and Governing His Church through His Vicar. You question God you imbecilic moron on your sure and certain path to Hell. You question Almighty God about His intent in commanding the Papal Election Law of Pope Pius XII. “What you bind on earth is bound in Heaven. What you loose on earth is loosed in Heaven.” What do you not understand about the Authoritative Power of Pope Pius XII’s Papal Election Law? You question Almighty God’s Knowledge of eternity, you miserable woman? Who in the hell do you think that you are, besides an utter imbecile who is objectively as certainly on her own personal path to an eternity with your Prince, Lucifer. He toys with you as you are his slave. You believe yourself to be a match for the preternatural intelligence of the summa and summit of Hell, you miscreant heretical fool, as you stand alone, outside the Catholic Church in your obstinate heresy, where no salvation can be found, deFide. You write with an astoundingly fantastic hubris and yet with the fear of a scared child, you obstinate heretic. Only Almighty God can save your wretched soul. In caritas.
This stuff simply CANNOT be made up, rather only borne witness to. The obstinate heretical fool, Marie Tageye, yet again as you cited the following:
“Allocution to Roman students, January 30, 1949 (as cited in Papal Teachings: The Church, Selected and Arranged by the Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, trans. Mother E. O’Gorman [Boston: Daughters of St. Paul, 1962 by Mother E. O’Gorman], p. 641 NOR DOES THE PERMANCY OF APOSTOLIC SUCCESION DEPEND ON THE TECHNICAL ASPECTS OF ANY ONE PAPAL ELECTION GONE AWRY!”
You then followed that quote which you cited with more of your pathetic conjecture as here:
“You are a legalist who denies that the Church will be carried on even though there is a horrible cataclysm of either an apostasy or a physical bombing of St. Peters and the College of Cardinals way back in 1958 and you are just wrong. You say it cannot happen because of what you misapply with Pope Pius XII statement 18 day rule. ”
You perfectly miserable non-Catholic fool as a religion of man adherent and tacit proponent, you actually as literally cite a purportedly Catholic document circa 1962, 4 years after Apostolic Succession ceased to exist, and these miserable wretches you cite were no more Catholic then, than you are now, as they assented to the false church of Antichrist and its false popes, as though they were true Vicars of Christ and you have the utterly fantastic audacity to cite them as proof that Pope Pius XII somehow DIDN’T MEAN WHAT HE ACTUALLY MEANT. Your utter imbecilic stupidity is nothing less than fantastically tremendous. You cite the beast to somehow prove that the true Vicar of Christ, Pope Pius XII, didn’t really mean what he plainly as pristinely meant, when he commanded that if anything was added to, subtracted from, or changed in any way, as it regards every aspect of his Papal Election Law, that it was rendered then as, “null and void”. These people you cite were not Catholic Marie Tageye. They assented to the false church of Antichrist as though it was the Church established by the Incarnate Son of God. So what is your point in quoting the wolves who are guarding the lambs, you obstinately heretical fool? Of course they denied the Authoritative Apostolic Governance of Pope Pius XII, belittling its import, just as you do, you heathen. He invoked the keys to bind and loose given to Blessed Peter alone by the Son of God and you deny him, you perfectly as astoundingly non-Catholic wretch. God save you. In caritas.
Ursula,
You ask many good questions and have done much searching as well and are trying to find where you can get true sacraments. It is true that in order to find the truth we do have to listen to true things that may not sound very comforting to us and I get that the home alone folks are challenging us. I agree that when you take away a true Pope that it softens things up so that the Final Anti-Christ can and will eventually come on the scene so that it is a matter of time but I don’t agree with IN Caritas when he told me “the time of Antichrist, who has now already COME and GONE, as you remain perfectly blind to this, reality as it is ”
The spirit of antichrist is ALWAYS IN THIS WORLD “In Caritas” but THE final personal anti-Christ has not manifested and revealed himself in all his power and when that happens as the Book of Apocalypse tells us heads will literally role and especially Christians heads and he will have a one world government in place and everyone will subject to him for 3 and ½ years. It will make the Soviet dictatorship look like a picnic. The Great apostasy come first which is here but who knows how long that takes and then after it comes the FINAL ANTICHRIST (as even in the apostles day the spirit of anti-Christ was already present in the world).
We have to be open to listening to others but the others should NOT just be laymen (as the anti living magisterium people are on this forum who distrust ALL clergy of today) and people who stay home as their way of approaching this apostasy because it sure appears to me that we are NOT at the end stage of the Apostasy yet so there is still some valid Masses more available. I do agree with the person that talked about that we should be very careful and not give someone bad advice or we could go to hell. As St Paul said in Romans 8: [15] For that which I work, I understand not. For I do not that good which I will; but the evil which I hate, that I do.”
You have to test the spirit of what is being said with the infallible Church as it has always been said before the apostasy. I am fallible and the stay home folks are also fallible and yes the emergency priests are also fallible. However the infallible Church can never give a bad command for the Universal church as its teaching before 1958. It is true you should not receive a doubtful sacrament however if a Catholic priest without jurisdiction and follows an anti-pope/false pope because he is confused about a papal election, or there is schism, or maybe he believes it would take the Church to call the cops and drag the false pope out and so he is not going to deal with what to do about it till more people cry foul and so said cleric might issues no public statements against anti-pope well God will judge that priest but if that man is a valid priest he can give you a valid sacrament and preaches as St. Vincent of Ferrer did who also had no jurisdiction technically and followed an anti-pope well then you must decide if you want to go to him. There has to be some saints still in the Catholic church.
Now I know that unlike in Ferrer’s day we are in a worse time because this is the Great apostasy, as in Pachamama Bergoglio Frankistine church of Mother Earth Gaia.
But I don’t think it is bad advise to tell you that the magisterium although just a handful compared to what it was is NOT dead and that it must be living as Leo XIII told us here” As Pope Leo XIII taught in Satis Cognitum: “If the living magisterium could be in any way false — an evident contradiction would follow, for then God would be the author of error.”
Now before Vat II there were bad priests, and Bishops who gave bad advice or else we would not be in this apostasy which we are in today and before Vatican II people just avoided liberal priests who were right minded but now it is as Pius XII said “after me comes the flood”. So I guess if you know you are drowning get out of that situation and try to go to higher land. The home aloners say All the Masses are doubtful and they will plant doubts for you because of their doubt in it. You must have confidence in your own judgement as long as you base it on the perennial teachings of the Church and pray that God will guide you.
It is for sure that the Vatican II magisterium is teaching false hood, and has invalidated their sacraments, & Bergoglio is now performing ceremonies in Lutheran false churches if what I heard is true besides his Pachamama blasphemous idolatry so it is not a good idea to approach his magisterium for anything and more and more of his magisterium is hopping on the recognize and resist bandwagon because he is so bad. In fact Bergoglio’s own Conciliar 94-year-old retired “bishop” of Corpus Christi, Texas, Fr. René Henry Gracida, has published a post calling for all remaining “legitimate cardinals” to get together and elect a Pope.”
I do agree that Catholic clergy is NOT functioning in its normal way and SEEMS like its dead and I do agree that it has been eclipsed as those who stay home would also say it is eclipsed. I do think that there are very few valid sacraments in the world because they changed the rites and the form, matter and intent of most of the sacraments, however there is still apostolic succession and true sacraments SOMEWHERE. I do agree that when the anti-Christ has his full power the sacraments will virtually cease. But I have already proved that the Douay Rheims bible teaches that there will still be a Mass going on but all around the world it will virtually cease (but we are NOT at that point yet in History) BELOW:
Then finally Catholic Commentary on Apoc. 11:1-2, Haydock version of the Douay-Rheims Bible:
“The churches consecrated to the true God, are so much diminished in number, that they are represented by St. John as one church; its ministers officiate at one altar; and all the true faithful are so few, with respect to the bulk of mankind, that the evangelist sees them assembled in one temple, to pay their adorations to the Most High. – Pastorini.”The Douay-Rheims New Testament with a Catholic Commentary, by Rev. Leo Haydock, Monrovia, CA: Catholic Treasures, 1991, p. 1640.
So some worship looks like it squeaks by even with the anti-Christ but for virtually 99 percent of the world it is squelched. When Christ talked to the original Apostles he was also talking to their successors and he said that he would not leave us orphans so I believe when Christ returns there will be a few priests and or Bishops left. There has to be right position and we must pray to find the right position and keep the Catholic faith and if we become convinced that a former position is wrong we must be willing to follow the truth.
I think we need to look at what the past magisterium has said before 1958 in the documents of the infallible Catholic Church and then try to find pastors who can give us emergency rations and preach what the Church has always taught. If we cannot find a priest in our area then we can like the Japanese Catholics stay home, pray the rosary, get married and baptize with the proper formula and say the daily rosary and keep Holy the Sabbath by prayer. May God guide you.
Dear Marie,
Did you actually just say this to Ursula: “…You must have confidence in your own judgement”?
Are you serious???
You disagree with what we say but then you offer NO answer to my CRITICAL and VALID questions, which is clear evidence of your own DOUBT. And I have some news for you: Ursula is another true Catholic and was only asking questions of you in the same spirit as I do, not for your worthless opinion or advice.
All that you have written here – your mere OPINION – is such an enormous disaster that I wouldn’t even know where to begin. It actually comes across as desperate. It is clear that you are not SEEKING Truth and it is also now crystal clear to me that you barely even read the information given to you to HELP you. The information presented is not anyone’s OPINION but instead is the teaching of Holy Mother Church through her true Popes and Infallible, Authoritatve, Perpetual and Living Magisterium – Christ’s Voice and Rule on earth in absence of a Pope, during the age of Antichrist.
Don’t you know the history of Haydock and the Haydock Bible, and that it is NOT the Douay Rheims Bible, and thus NOT the official Bible of the Catholic Church?
For goodness’ sake you even misinterpret Romans 8:15.
Marie, WHERE are ALL the “Christians” whose heads are “gonna roll”? Christ said when He returns “will I find faith on the earth?” Please don’t tell me that you believe Protestants are Christians. I already know that you can’t even seem to comprehend that not everyone who says or thinks they are Catholic, is actually Catholic, much less why that is so. What makes you so sure that the “heads rolling” isn’t in a mystical, spiritual sense? What makes you so sure that 3.5 years is to be taken literally? Who else might actually have even a SHOT at fooling the Elect – AKA true Catholics – other than a Papal imposter?
Marie, I’m sorry to say that I can no longer engage in discussion with you. Your will seems to be fixed in your opinions and your own interpretations of things and you aren’t really interested in the proofs that have been presented to you, which again, are not opinions but FACTS. In blindness you revel in your own ideas of how things are or should be, and thus you revel in your own will. You “speak” way too much and listen way too little.
I will place you on my list of prayer intentions; you cannot lose your soul! Set aside everything YOU think – for a few months even (if God even grants you a few more months) and ASK the Blessed Mother and St. Joseph if you are on the correct path. Will you do this???
May God have mercy on you and me.
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.
P.S. Marie, I must add something: it also seems that you are confusing the “Living” Magisterium with the Church HIERARCHY.
James,
When it comes to the sacraments and sacramental theology, the Church teaches there are positive and negative doubts. Too often, laymen wrongly act and make conclusions on negative doubts in these times. Acting on “any” doubt is not in accordance with Catholic teaching. I prefer not to get into the long winded discussions here (especially when the post count is in the hundreds and the set-up here doesn’t properly allow for it), so I would just recommend that you do yourself a favor and research that.
As for the mortal sins of heresy, schism and apostasy, yes the the Church teaches that those remove membership. But it does not teach that every other mortal sin cuts one off from the membership in the Catholic Church. I am not condoning mortal sin, but I am making distinctions that are being lost in these combox discussions.
I agree with others who say that your posts are typically charitable which is why I am directing these last few posts to you.
2Vermont:
Yes, I will do that. Thanks.
Good Monday morning, dear James_o,
Please be exquisitely careful. 2Vermont is no more Catholic than is Marie Tageye, nor than the other sycophant followers of Tom A. The smiley face of Lucifer. These people deny the divine, living, perpetual Voice of Jesus the Christ, Teaching and Governing the few who remain in this time, in His true Church, as they affront the holy Magisterium time and again, as the true Church is now and of course, in eclipse. Amen. “You will know them by their fruits”. An evil tree cannot bear good fruit james__o. They abjure none of their error as they freely will to relish in it, as it makes them, “feel good”, and that is all that matters to these pseudo-intellectual, heretical fools. If memory serves, it was 2Vermont who actually wrote that she was somehow relieved to, “know”, that, “In caritas”, was simply a, “bot”, a machine and not an human person, when the imbecilic, pseudo-intellectual, diabolically perverse, so called, “mothermostforgiving”, actually wrote that in this space a few weeks ago. 2Vermont was, relieved, to, “know”, that I was simply a machine and not human. You cannot make this satanic stuff up, james__o. Misery loves company and they are sensing you as somewhat vulnerable to their poisonous fruit. God bless and keep you, james__o. In caritas.
I’ll be careful.
Thanks IC.
Yes, James do be careful. You can look for my response regarding the “bot” accusation, and you will see that I did not agree with it.
Yes, that’s right you didn’t agree, you said in fact, “I actually don’t believe he’s a bot”.
IC was really getting attacked on that forum.
To be fair, IC did say “if memory serves me”, and there’s no way he’d “lie” about you intentionally.
As I know you wouldn’t intentionally “lie” about anyone either.
Then perhaps IC should make sure get his facts straight before spouting falsehoods. He sure was quick to condemn me…and you were quick to believe it.
Believe it? I read what you wrote, acknowledged and corrected it, and responded quickly. That should say something.
But I see that I’ve offended you for no good reason, and I’m sorry for that.
*gazes over the combox*
Perhaps a reminder is in order on historical examples of the Church’s judgment vis-a-vis heresy, because I see anathemas being hurled about with a wanton recklessness that the Church Herself never exhibited:
https://romeward.com/articles/239752007/heresy-in-history
A little perspective goes a long way.
2Vermont,
I stand corrected, regarding my incorrectly recalling you as being the complicit one with so called, “mothermostforgiving”, and the objective witness of the diabolical perversion of her/his mind. As it relates the objective reality that you do not hold the Catholic Faith, of course that thing itself speaks, as res ipsa loquitur, as you affront the divine, living, perpetual, Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. Amen. I pray that you abjure yourself of that crime and submit to Christ the King. Amen. Without gazing back and reading your response, I believe it was my2cents who concurred with the wicked, diabolical dehumanization of so called, “mmf”. I now recall your commenting that you did not believe that I was a, “bot”. In caritas.
my2cents,
Can you explain something to me. It sounds like you definitely are taking the sede vecantist position and you probably also stay home and believe Bergoglio to be a non pope yet you are getting opposed on this forum by some of these home alone Catholics. I am new to this ” home alone movement” and from what I gather European Catholics stay home because they just lost the faith NOT because they think Pius XII commanded them to do that. I heard this is an American phenomena maybe because we are more legalistic here in the US and we believe in “the original intent of the constitution” and use a great deal of “private judgement” coming from an American background and mostly protestant country and it seems to have rubbed off on Catholics here. Can you help me understand this situation or maybe you don’t understand all the criticism either.
Ursula, regarding your question on handling doubts about licitness just do a word search on this forum on what I posted regarding my point about St. Vincent Ferrer. The priest I go to was ordained by a Pius XII Bishop in good standing and that is good enough for me some of these Home Aloners on this forum can take it up with Pius XII when they see him. If they get there. Let us pray we all do. I don’t agree with some of there positions although I wish them well. I just think a few of them seem to take a great deal of time and “key strokes” attacking the wrong people. They will no doubt find something to pick apart here. No one has to listen to anything I say except my children. They will get in trouble if they don’t. They usually listen though and I love them.
A Simple Man,
Thanks for posting that site I have perused some of the articles and I see them as reasonable and I have thought some of those very things myself. I just don’t see the point in condemning all of the Vatican II Bishops especially the ones like Castro Mayer and Lefebvre who tried to warn people about the double dutch in the documents and that people were loosing the faith it. I do appreciate Mr. Daly’s work and have read some it as well. I am sure that you will get some nasty comments from some of the folks on this forum but I think what has happened is that people have been betrayed by the Churchmen and they don’t trust anyone and believe me I get that. There is very little unity at all and that is because a visible Head ie. a pope has been taken away from us. Please God help us to get one. We cry for bread and these clowns in the Vatican throw stones and slap us every chance they get. I am going to check out that site more and I hope everyone on this site is open enough to be challenged. Have you got a good article on why we should seek out valid clergy today instead of stay home alone?
“Valid” Clergy is not what we need. Legitimate Clergy is what we need, and that’s the point we’ve been desperately try to get across in all the posts above.
You cannot have legitimate Clergy without the judgement/jurisdiction of a true Pope. It still stands as an undeniable truth.
But not so easy to accept. So we kill the messenger.
You poor, poor, non-Catholic, adherent to the, “religion of man”, Marie Tageye, as you sift and sort the divine Magisterium to fit your own utterly abysmal fiat, you miserable fool, as though Marie Tageye holds the keys to bind and loose, you utterly schismatic and heretical miscreant.
You are simply manifesting your utterly abysmal lack of receiving the divine and Catholic Faith, as to be known objectively, as commanded by the Incarnate Son of God: “You will KNOW them by their fruits.” He then commanded: “You are either with Me or you are against Me.” As you are objectively against the Son of God made Man, you objectively evidence your own personal hatred of Jesus the Christ as you affront Him, each and every time you affront His divine, living, perpetual as unending and unchanging, Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, and whether you know it or not, your evil fruit speaks, as res ipsa loquitur. “An evil tree cannot bear good fruit.” You have NO POWER to change one iota of one word of the Governing Apostolic, as Singular Power and teaching Authority, of Pope Pius XII, and the One Magisterium which he protected as infallibly from any iota of error, as the final Vicar of Christ who would ever walk this now barren and scorched earth, with the utter loss of Apostolic Succession as commanded in, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, you heretical fool. Who in Lucifer’s Hell do you think that you are, as you bear witness to being on your very own sure as certain path to join your Prince of this world, into his Hell and for all eternity? A Simple Man is no more Catholic than you, just evidencing schism and heresy and adherence to the, “religion of man”, in each his own unique way. The unique affronts to the living Word and Command of God in His divine and living Magisterium are legion, as are Lucifer’s slaves. Amen. You evidence the age old maxim that misery indeed enjoys its own company, the company of those who objectively demonstrate by their evil fruit, that they are each on their own sure as certain path to Hell, joining the Prince. You, as so called, “A Simple Man”, treat the divine, living, perpetual Ordinary and Universal Magisterium as though it is an human, static as dead, document, which can be sifted and sorted to come up with each his very own personal interpretation, evidencing an utterly fantastic caprice, while at once an utterly unspeakable hubris. Amen. This personal belief of the schismatical heretic, that the Magisterium is to be understood in personal opinion, as you all witness objectively as your evil fruit, is immanently heretical itself, and of course. “Satis Cognitum”, infallibly teaches that to those who are outside the Holy Church where there is no salvation, deFide, the Magisterium will not be discernible and as from “Satis Cognitum” now copied here:’ “Those who are outside are like sterile and worthless sand: they cannot comprehend” ‘. Jesus the Christ commanded, “You will KNOW them by their fruits.” Your fruits evidence objectively that you cannot see the Magisterium, you are as, “sterile and worthless sand”, as every schismatic and heretical fool who puts his fingers to the keys. Amen. Alleluia. These realities as they are can only remain self-evident, to the few who actually hold the divine and Catholic Faith. You read the Magisterium and it is as though it is a foreign language to you, Marie Tageye, as you simply do not hold the divine and Catholic Faith freely in your will. This is objective as Jesus the Christ commanded, “You will know them by their fruits”. I pray that you suffer and submit into His Magisterium, Jesus the Christ with His true children here in this now barren and scorched world, unto the Last Day. You as all other heretics claim that this language to describe you and your cadre of innumerable, heretical fools is harsh. The true Church has perennially taught that heresy is worse than the crime of murder, as heresy murders the eternal soul. And so your point is what? True justice is that which is truly due the other. When the other continually as obstinately manifests his own personal heresy, the language is simply just. Amen. Alleluia. In caritas.
And IC once more does not surprise me with your response.
I’d ask if you’d actually read the article by John Daly, but I guess it doesn’t really matter. You’re committed to your path no matter what anyone else says, and you’ll anathematize anyone who disagrees with your take on things.
Its amazing how IC can accuse Marie of sifting and sorting the magisterium to meet her “utterly abysmal fiat” when this is exactly what he does to come up with his conclusions.
Poor, poor, heretical and schismatic A Simple Man and the belligerent, jingoistic, cunning deceiver Tom A,
You objectively evidence the utter lack of holding the divine and Catholic Faith as you remain fantastically blind to this simple command of the divine, living, perpetual as unchanging and unending, Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, as copied from, “Satis Cognitum”. Amen.
” And so Hilary: “Christ teaching from the ship signifies that those who are outside the Church can never grasp the divine teaching; for the ship typifies the Church where the word of life is deposited and preached. Those who are outside are like sterile and worthless sand: they cannot comprehend” (Comment. in Matt. xiii., n. I).
You utterly as patently and simply, “cannot comprehend”, the living Truth as His Magisterium, as you remain blinded even to your utterly hideous blindness, which damns you, as Jesus the Christ commands: “You will KNOW them by their fruits.” An evil tree cannot bear good fruit. You will know them by their fruits. The evil trees He will cast into the everlasting fire. Amen. Alleluia. Only Almighty God can save you. Your hubris precedes you in an astounding display of self-denial, manifesting a malignant love of self. Amen. In caritas.
In caritas,
Have you ever considered if it says something when the Inquisition was more measured in their judgments than you are? Something to think about.
Because after looking over everything in this combox thus far, I can say the following with certitude:
1) Everyone you’re anathematizing outwardly professes obedience to the Papacy, along with the desire to remain in communion with the Catholic Church.
2) Everyone you’re anathematizing has outwardly professed a desire to hold to the true faith, though they have disagreements on your interpretations (or, at least, the implications you derive from them) of canonical disciplines and certain ecclesial laws.
In other words, based on the examples from Church history that I previously linked, only true and proper authority can pass judgment on a subject where legitimate doubt exists.
And that authority ain’t you.
So lay off the pompous attitude for once, okay?
Poor, poor A Simple Man,
Your utterly heretical fiat as opinion has no meaning as it relates Catholic Truth. Amen. You deny the only as singular application, not interpretation as it IS THE INTERPRETATION, of the divine, living, perpetual as UNCHANGING and UNENDING, Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. The Magisterium can have no secondary interpretation, you miserable non-Catholic fool, as IT IS THE INTERPRETATION, of the Catholic Truth. Period and end. Because you simply cannot see this, as you objectively receive, “the operation of error to believe lying”, you falsely believe it requires RE-INTERPRETATION; that very belief, is utter heresy itself. It IS THE INTERPRETATION, which you and all but all alive, remain utterly blinded to. The color blue simply is the color blue, you poor, poor, simple man. What further explanation is possible of the color blue, than it simply is blue, you miscreant fool? There is no further understanding, than blue is blue. You deny Jesus the Christ in His command: “Seek the truth and you SHALL FIND IT”, you miserable fool. You dare suggest that Christ Jesus did not command what He commanded? Because you are perfectly blinded by your hubris, you think that everyone else must be as well, when Christ Jesus commanded that all but all would not hold the divine and Catholic Faith in this time and in your capricious hubris, you believe you, “A Simple Man”, should somehow be of the chosen, when you are perfectly blind to Catholic Truth and this reality is utterly objective, to only those who hold the divine and Catholic Faith, as Almighty God deemed it so. Amen. Alleluia. I know with apodictic certitude that I am a perfectly miserable wretch deserving of my own personal eternity in Hell, yet I also know with apodictic certitude that Almighty God created His human creatures’ intellect to perfectly conform to His, as Truth Himself. Amen. Alleluia. As the Angelic Doctor taught, only by virtue of the RECEPTION of God’s grace can the intellect see the truth and the will then choose the good and reject the privation of the good, which is due in the religious or moral act. Amen. I also know with apodictic certitude that The Christ commanded that: He who knows My commands and follows them loves Me and as I Am in the Father, you are in Me, and I in you. Amen. Alleluia. You have to KNOW His commands as HE COMMANDED, and follow them to love Him, you true as certain heretic. Faith, faith, faith, in spite of all odds against you, as when Christ hung from His Singular, Holy Cross. Amen. You remain utterly blinded in your hubris as you actually believe that you hold the divine and Catholic Faith, simply because you deem it so, as you affront the Magisterium time and yet again. Amen. Pope Leo XIII infallibly taught that all those who do not hold the divine and Catholic Faith would be blinded to the meaning of the Magisterial teaching, as they would be as, “sterile and worthless sand”. Amen. Alleluia. And you utterly affront this Magisterial teaching as you purport it to be only a matter of, “opinion”, as it relates the perfect understanding of the Magisterium, you imbecilic, heretical fool. You affront the Magisterium and of course you are blind to that reality. “Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.” You mock Jesus the Christ, as you suggest His command of perfection is reduced to a matter of human fiat as opinion, which contains immanent doubt, when it comes to perfectly KNOWING His Teaching and His commands in His divine, living, and perpetual Magisterium, you miserable wretch. You are objectively an heretic, outside the Holy Church where no salvation is possible, deFide, and you have the unmitigated audacity to utterly as simply offer your heretical fiat about that same Magisterium. What do you not understand about the command of Jesus the Christ: “You will KNOW them by their fruits”, as He then commanded the coming of false prophets and false Christs, you imbecilic fool? God save you, “A Simple Man”. In caritas.
ASM, it is obvious that IC is simply doing his schtick. Its a formulaic response to any disagreement. Unfortunately, ASB and james are actually home aloners who are thinking about the problem and looking for truth. IC and his preposterous line of reasoning (if you could call it that) actually makes ASB and james look foolish by association with IC.
James, you are correct that we need valid AND legitimate clergy. Where you err is thinking you can determine illegitimacy anymore than someone else can determine legitimacy. Your assertion that there is no legitimacy when there is no Pope simply contradicts the historical record. Again, I do not argue either for legitimacy or for legitimacy. The sede clergy claim supplied jurisdiction. If you doubt them, don’t go. There really is nothing else left to say. If you don’t doubt the sede clergy, then go. But none of us have any authority to denounce the other for coming up with a differing conclusion.
Tom A: “ASM, it is obvious that IC is simply doing his schtick. Its a formulaic response to any disagreement. Unfortunately, ASB and james are actually home aloners who are thinking about the problem and looking for truth. IC and his preposterous line of reasoning (if you could call it that)…”
Pope Leo XIII, “Satis Cognitum”:
“Wherefore, as appears from what has been said, Christ instituted in the Church a living, authoritative and permanent Magisterium, which by His own power He strengthened, by the Spirit of truth He taught, and by miracles confirmed. He willed and ordered, under the gravest penalties, that its teachings should be received as if they were His own. As often, therefore, as it is declared on the authority of this teaching that this or that is contained in the deposit of divine revelation, it must be believed by every one as true. If it could in any way be false, an evident contradiction follows; for then God Himself would be the author of error in man. “Lord, if we be in error, we are being deceived by Thee” (Richardus de S. Victore, De Trin., lib. i., cap. 2). In this wise, all cause for doubting being removed, can it be lawful for anyone to reject any one of those truths without by the very fact falling into heresy?-without separating himself from the Church?-without repudiating in one sweeping act the whole of Christian teaching? For such is the nature of faith that nothing can be more absurd than to accept some things and reject others. Faith, as the Church teaches, is “that supernatural virtue by which, through the help of God and through the assistance of His grace, we believe what he has revealed to be true, not on account of the intrinsic truth perceived by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God Himself, the Revealer, who can neither deceive nor be deceived” (Conc. Vat., Sess. iii., cap. 3). If then it be certain that anything is revealed by God, and this is not believed, then nothing whatever is believed by divine Faith: for what the Apostle St. James judges to be the effect of a moral deliquency, the same is to be said of an erroneous opinion in the matter of faith. “Whosoever shall offend in one point, is become guilty of all” (Ep. James ii., 10). Nay, it applies with greater force to an erroneous opinion. For it can be said with less truth that every law is violated by one who commits a single sin, since it may be that he only virtually despises the majesty of God the Legislator. But he who dissents even in one point from divinely revealed truth absolutely rejects all faith, since he thereby refuses to honour God as the supreme truth and the formal motive of faith. “In many things they are with me, in a few things not with me; but in those few things in which they are not with me the many things in which they are will not profit them”
Oh’ Tom A, you pseudo-intellectual, heretical, imbecilic moron, you mean like that, “formulaic response”. Your intellect is so utterly as abysmally darkened that you cannot begin to glimpse just how abysmally darkened it is, as you simply are blinded in bombastic hubris, you capricious fool, while you are on your sure as certain, personal path to an eternity with your Prince, as you hate Jesus the Christ, as you are to be KNOWN by your poisonous fruit, which is the hatred of Truth, as you obstinately reject the Truth. Amen. Alleluia. Save your soul but to do this you must lose your malignant love of self, you heretical imbecile. Pope Leo XIII infallibly teaches, ” He [Jesus the Christ] willed and ordered, under the gravest penalties, that its [The Magisterium] teachings should be received as if they were His own.” Further Pope Leo XIII teaches in, “Satis Cognitum”: “Faith, as the Church teaches, is “that supernatural virtue by which, through the help of God and through the assistance of His grace, we believe what he has revealed to be true, not on account of the intrinsic truth perceived by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God Himself,…” You simply DO NOT HOLD THE DIVINE AND CATHOLIC FAITH, Tom A, as Jesus the Christ commanded: “You will KNOW them by their fruits.” In caritas.
ASM,
Would not this age, the current wretched, corrupt state, oblige Catholics to hurl anathemas, like never before?
I don’t think “wanton recklessness” is quite accurate. It’s more calculated than that. More like “fight club”, instead of “friendly chat box”. And that sharpens wit.
We are in a war, no?
C’mon Tom, you don’t want IC to throw pillows at you, do you?
Want to know why I like IC? Every “miscreant”, “fool”, imbecilic moron” and “wretch” he writes, he also equally applies to himself. In other words, he won’t flatter himself, nor anyone else. We are those things.
But he only quotes the Church. No fault in that.
That’s rare. Old school. No BS.
“Unfortunately, ASB and james are actually home aloners who are thinking about the problem and looking for truth.”
Unfortunately, Tom? Since when is it “unfortunate” for someone to be “thinking about the problem and looking for Truth.” Nevertheless, I’ve already found the Truth in so far as I HAVE NO DOUBT that there is currently nowhere to receive valid AND licit Sacraments. AGAIN, I reached this understanding PRIOR to the time that IC did. I know very little but I do know what I am obligated to know if I wish to live and die as a Catholic, with the HOPE of being INSIDE the Church, and of course, however, there is always more Truth to be learned and I do continue to learn.
You, on the other hand, assume the role of “Pope” and FEEL that you can spin the chamber of your weapon and play Russian Roulette with you very immortal soul in taking your chances with what YOU PERCEIVE to be “valid” Sacraments, whereas I DO NOT. I believe that Christ speaks to us in HIS Living and Perpetual Magisterium in which I find NO ambiguity or loophole whatsoever, because there simply isn’t any.
May God have mercy on you…and me.
“Home-Aloners” is a very derogatory phrase. I really hate it because in reality it’s not something you would ever want to do or choose.
There’s much suffering in it, you’d never “choose” it, trust me. It’s literally forced upon you, when the majority don’t want to accept persecution.
You are chucked in the garbage, by the world and even all those called Catholic.
But love of Christ could make you a reject.
In Caritas,
I don’t mind you attacking me at all. Do you know why ? Because I think that you want me to save my soul and repent of my “errors and heresies” that you believe I have and I want you to know that I deeply appreciate that because I believe you have a “single mind” and your goal in life is to get to heaven. I get that and I have that same goal. I am telling you though that you really are a contrarian.
On the one hand you attacked somebody when they seemed to be expressing doubts and you basically warned them that they were under the influence of a diabolical whatever, and they were a miscreant fool and then your screed of Amen, Alleluia which is in sharp contrast to your tone because Amen means yes in Hebrew and alleluia means joyous praise. Both of those praises of yours always accompany what you believe is the Gospel truth , and in your pride which all of us have and we need to work on that and you KNOW 100 percent it must be true because it is YOUR interpretation of it which if you are honest on some points you just might be wrong also because YOU ARE NOT INFALLIBLE LIKE A REAL POPE IS. Then when I tell woman to study, pray and follow her conscience according to the light God has given to her according to what the perennial teaching of the Catholic church you attack me for telling her to “have confidence in your own judgement” not mentioning that I had a stipulation to pray and go according the perennial teaching of the Catholic Church and then the confidence in her own judgement part. What judgement AFTER conforming her mind to Church teaching do YOU WANT HER TO FOLLOW IF NOT HER OWN JUDGEMENT?? Bergoglio?? You?? By the way if YOU WERE EVER IN THE NOVUS ORDO RELIGION WHEN YOU WERE ABOVE THE AGE OF REASON OR AS AN ADULT THIS SHOWS THAT YOU CAN HAVE BAD JUDGEMENT ALSO AND PERHAPS YOUR CONFIDENCE WAS SHAKEN. Who hasn’t had that happen?
Ursula has to go with what she thinks is right according to Church teaching after she has prayed AND RECIEVED GOD’S GRACE- as Christ said, . [7] Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you. [8] For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened. [9] Or what man is there among you, of whom if his son shall ask bread, will he reach him a stone? [10] Or if he shall ask him a fish, will he reach him a serpent?
.Everyone should want people to follow the Church shouldn’t they and Christ’s teaching? Where did I say something wrong in that regard? No you just want to twist people’s meaning because you believe you are 100 percent right and they are 100 percent wrong because you ACT LIKE YOU ARE THE LIVING MAGISTERIUM HANDING DOWN THE INTERPRETATION OF CHURCH TEACHING AND HISORY. I don’t buy every part of your line and you attack me.
No In Caritas you are just looking to attack your fellow Catholics and you call them all heretics and “A Simple Man” is right that the Church simply did not hurl excommunications like you do. I will say this In Caritas (NOT ONLY THAT IT TURNS PEOPLE OFF FROM THE SEDE VACANTIST POSSITION WHICH IS THE RIGHT ONE) and I mean this in all sincerity: If there were more people who were as militant and single minded as you are back in the 1950’s and they were advising Pius XII instead of Cardinal Bea who was a total infiltrator we would not be in the bad shape and apostasy that we are in today. You are NOT a cleric though In Caritas so you have your limits.
Thank you In Caritas. I don’t want to lose my soul just like you don’t want to go to Hell either and I do read what you say. I do not wish to offend any “home aloner” and I do not use that in a pejorative way because if I was being negative- I would say something like “the people who don’t believe in a living magisterium” to go to on the face of the earth till the end of time” but that is too long of phrase and I understand you don’t believe that that is what you believe.
I am NOT condemning you at all for staying home. I can believe that you have agonized about it and you feel alienated even more so than your fellow traditional Catholic who go to Mass. I know how you feel to some extent because when I left the NO Mass people didn’t understand me and attacked my position and then when I took the sede vacantist position I really got attacked. I understand but we are not above our Master and so we are supposed to be attacked for taking up our cross and following him. I can see why you stay home James_o and a Simple Begger I appreciate much of what you say also. If we pray for each other and keep listening and praying our Rosary and studying and reading the Holy Saints, and begging God to help us for we are miserable sinners then Jesus and His blessed mother will lead us into the truth and into repentance.
Before you tell your fellow traditional Catholics that they are going to HELL FOR NOT STAYING HOME ALONE AND going to Church to priests they believe are valid and have “supplied jurisdiction” by the Church itself remember these words by Jesus: [1] Judge not, that you may not be judged, [2] For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again. [3] And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye? [4] Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye? [5] Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.”
Un caritas: “Apostolic Succession was forever…”
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I see your still here making a fool of yourself Un caritas. If the Church lost apostolic succession it would no longer exist as Christ founded it, and the gates of hell would have prevailed against it. That would either mean Christ is a liar, or He was unable to keep His promises. Is that what you now think? Read what Pius XI wrote in Mortalium Animos:
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“It follows then that the Church of Christ not only exists to-day AND ALWAYS, but is also EXACTLY THE SAME AS IT WAS IN THE TIME OF THE APOSTLES, unless we were to say, which God forbid, either that Christ our Lord could not effect His purpose, or that He erred when He asserted that the gates of hell should never prevail against it. … To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, EXACTLY THE SAME AS HE INSTITUTED IT.” (Pius XI, Mortalium Animos)
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It was only a matter of time, Un caritas, before your ignorance and pride led you into heresy.
James. If IC simply just quoted magisterial documents then I would have no issue with him. But look carefully at IC’s technique. He uses a method of fallacy by throwing out authentic quotes left and right that no one can argue about. But then he slips in a conclusion or opinion and the reader is subliminally expected to accept the conclusion as fact based on the numerous authentic quotes provided. Unfortunately, this fallacy works on the vast majority of the readers. It appears it is also working on you. There are many other reasonable approaches to the “home alone” position. Don’t associate yourself with IC’s deception. The whole sede community needs to focus on “supplied jurisdiction” and whether it applies or not. To claim some canonical bull from the 18th century invalidates apostolic succession is just absolute lunacy. He has no understanding of ecclesiology.
Un Caritas: “You deny the Authoritative teaching and Governance of, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, period and end. Prove otherwise as you have not, as you cannot demonstrate this from that Apostolic Constitution. Amen. He definitely as Authoritatively taught that the canonically valid Conclave had to meet by the 18th day after the death of the Vicar of Christ, WITHOUT ANY POSSIBILITY OF EXCEPTION, to begin the business of the election of the next Roman Pontiff. This had to occur with whatever number of Cardinals were then present in Rome. PERIOD AND END.”
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Pius XII said the cardinals are to meet within 20 days, not 18 days.
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Pius XII, Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis, #37. “We also prescribe that after the death of the pontiff the cardinals present are to wait 15 full days for the absent cardinals. Permission is granted the Sacred College of Cardinals to delay the beginning of the conclave for a few more days; however, ONCE 20 DAYS AT MOST HAVE PASSED, the cardinal electors present are to enter the conclave and proceed to the business of the election.”
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Pius XII died on October 9, 1958
The conclave convened on October 25, 1958
John XXIII was elected on October 28, 1958.
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Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis provides that the Cardinals don’t have to enter the conclave until the 20th day. In the conclave that elected John XXIII, they entered on the 16th day, and the entire thing was over and done with on the 19 day.
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Did you even read Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis or verify applicable dates?
Tom A, again evidencing his evil fruit and as commanded by Jesus the Christ, he will be tossed into the eternal fire of Hell, as The Christ commanded that is what He will do with the evil trees, as a good tree cannot bear evil fruit, deFide. Amen. Alleluia.
The pseudo-intellectual, heretical fool wrote this: “The whole sede community needs to focus on “supplied jurisdiction” and whether it applies or not. To claim some canonical bull from the 18th century invalidates apostolic succession is just absolute lunacy. He has no understanding of ecclesiology.”
The Catholic Church teaches this infallibly in, “Satis Cognitum”: “Faith, as the Church teaches, is “that supernatural virtue by which, through the help of God and through the assistance of His grace, we believe what he has revealed to be true, not on account of the intrinsic truth perceived by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God Himself, the Revealer, who can neither deceive nor be deceived”
“…we believe what he has revealed to be true,…”. This is utterly simple. To, “believe”, one must first, “know”. To believe, as thus to know, “what he [Jesus the Christ] has revealed to be TRUE,…”. We are commanded by the Magisterium to know the Truth, which it teaches, as it has been divinely, “revealed to be true”. Amen. Alleluia. Blessed Peter and His Successors were the divinely appointed guardians of this Truth which Jesus the Christ revealed to them through His Holy Ghost. Amen. Alleluia. Lucifer’s own Tom A would have you believe that the Magisterial Truth is not received into the human intellect by virtue of the reception of the Gift of the divine and holy Catholic Faith, rather he has written that the Magisterium is dead, as the Popes who protected it are dead. Lucifer’s own Tom A, then tacitly declares that the divinely revealed Truth in the Magisterium is simply NOT DIVINE, rather it is simply now a dead letter as written by the human hands of the Popes. The personal Hell that awaits Tom A simply cannot be glimpsed by the human imaginative power. Amen.
For the few who actually hold the divine and Catholic Faith and for those who sincerely seek the Faith, as, “You will KNOW them by their fruits.”, note the tone of the comment about the divine, living, perpetual as UNCHANGING AND UNENDING Ordinary and Universal Magisterium which Lucifer’s own slave, Tom A, uses when speaking of it, as here again: ” To claim some canonical bull from the 18th century invalidates apostolic succession is just absolute lunacy.” The poor, poor imbecilic moron doesn’t even know his centuries, as it relates divine Catholic teaching and governance, after all that has been written and rewritten. In the, “18th century”, this, “bull”, was written as claimed by the one called Tom A, who yet again evidences objectively his malignant love of self in his fiat, his opinion, however fantastically ridiculous it is. The poor imbecilic moron doesn’t even understand enough of the Magisterium yet to know that the Apostolic Constitution, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, was written in the 20th century, as in Dec, 1945. This is the Governing Papal Election Law which, with apodictic certitude, as it is simply a matter of historical fact, was violated on Oct. 27, 1958, deFide. In that very violation, Apostolic Succession forever ceased, deFide, as there was only a canonically invalid Conclave which assembled by the 18th as final day, to begin the business of the election of the next Pontiff, after the death of Pope Pius XII. Amen. He declared to be, “null and void”, anything as everything which may occur outside of his utterly specific rules. This is simply Almighty God’s divine Providence to protect His true children, those who see, as they actually receive the divine and Catholic Faith freely into their wills, from the false Christs, false prophets, and wolves in sheep’s clothing who Jesus the Christ Himself commanded us would come in their prophesied time. Amen. Alleluia. To know this, is not to interpret it, rather to simply apply that law which Pope Pius XII gave us in accordance with his full Apostolic Power to bind and loose. Amen. Alleluia. The submission to this Papal Election Law requires, “the same assent of faith”, as does that for Apostolic teaching on the Faith and Morality, deFide, as infallibly taught by the only as singular Vatican Council of the Catholic Church and affirmed by Pope Pius XII in his Encyclical, “Ad Apostolorum Principis”, in 1958, and as he Authoritatively commanded, any rejection whatsoever, as any iota of rejection of Papal Governance and discipline, was to occur at the very pain of one’s own personal eternity in Hell, deFide. Amen. Alleluia.
For all of you heretics out there, think carefully before you reduce yourself to the reality of the pseudo-intellectual, imbecilic moron Tom A, who so diligently accomplishes this reality as it is, now time and time and time and again. One cannot simply by their foolish fiat, deem the other to be in error, they must prove it, using the Magisterium, because the imbecilic fiat simply implodes under its very own weight of utter absurdity, for the few who know the Truth, as Christ commanded Himself to be known. He who KNOWS My commands and follows them, loves Me. Amen. Alleluia. This is a diabolically deceived fool’s game and Tom A is its master. The accusation, again simply as his fiat as he offers no proof for his claim, which is this: “He has no understanding of ecclesiology.”, is actually owned by Tom A. It is his blind accusation of the other, which actually defines himself, as he gazes into his mirror of malignant self love. Amen. Oh’ the bitter irony of it all. Amen. Alleluia. Lastly for now, there is NO JURISDICTION IN THE COSMOS, thus there simply is NO JURISDICTION TO SUPPLY. Tom A is such an utterly and spectacular imbecile, that he actually believes you can somehow supply that which you DO NOT HAVE TO SUPPLY. This is so tremendously foolish that it is certainly beyond me to find such an adjective which properly codifies his madness. No Apostolic Successsion============No Jurisdiction to supply. Marie Tageye, it is utter heresy to suggest that the, “Church”, supplies Jurisdiction. If you die with that heresy alone, it of course will damn you. Know, “Satis Cognitum”. Know the Authoritative teaching of the Vatican Council. Blessed Peter was the singular man in the cosmos who received the divine Charism of Jurisdiction and in his Successors, deFide. Amen. Alleluia. No Pope, no Succession of the Apostolic power, no Jurisdiction to supply to anyone or from anywhere in the cosmos, deFide. Amen. Alleluia. In caritas.
Poor, poor fantastically miscreant Tom A, spews his utterly poisonous fruit and yet again,
To hold doubt, any doubt at all, is not to hold the Catholic Faith, deFide. Doubt is utterly opposed to Truth. To hold apodictic certitude is to receive the divine Gift of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith, that Gift both freely given and completely undeserved. Amen. Doubt belongs to Lucifer and his slaves, as you Tom A. You evidence a diabolical cunning, It is a gift which you have received from your Prince. Amen. You are a stupid fool but you are cunning. In fact you are fantastically stupid, as to be known in your unutterably stunning display of capricious hubris. Amen. Alleluia. Your damnation will be celebrated by the Saints enjoying the Beatific Vision into all eternity, should you die in your objective state of satanic deception. Amen. Save your soul you fantastically stupid, miserable wretch. Submit to Christ the King and His living Magisterium. Amen. In caritas.
Un Caritas: “In that very violation, Apostolic Succession forever ceased, deFide, as there was only a canonically invalid Conclave which assembled by the 18th as final day, to begin the business of the election of the next Pontiff, after the death of Pope Pius XII. Amen.”
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Un Caritas, you need to stop making a fool out of yourself. In case you missed my comments, the conclave met 16 days after the death of Pius XII, not 18.
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Pius XII died on October 9, 1958
The conclave convened on October 25, 1958
John XXIII was elected on October 28, 1958.
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“Following the death of Pope Pius XII on 9 October 1958, the papal conclave of 1958 met from 25 to 28 October and on the eleventh ballot elected Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli, Patriarch of Venice, to succeed him. He accepted the election and took the name John XXIII. … ALL THE CARDINALS WHO MADE THE TRIP REACHED ROME BY 22 OCTOBER WITH DAYS TO SPARE BEFORE THE CONCLAVE BEGAN 16 DAYS AFTER PIUS’ DEATH.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958_papal_conclave
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And in case you missed my other post, it is heresy to say the Church lost apostolic succession.
The perfectly miserable and blind, miscreant fool, so called, “J. Peters”, has returned, and not masked as hidden underneath another moniker this time, you perfectly Gnostic, religion of man adherent and proponent, on your sure and certain personal path to Hell with your Prince, Lucifer, you heathen.
You are so utterly jingoistic in your intellective blindness and pseudo-intellectual foolishness, that you fail to see that it is not the time per se, as that was met, you imbecilic moron. It is the INVALIDITY of the metaphysical matter of one of Satan’s very own, Angelo Roncali, that is the implacable problem, you moronic fool. The Conclave was INVALID. Go back now to your own personal hole, as your glimpse of Hell that awaits you, while still breathing this side the veil, you heretical freak. God save you as only He can. In caritas.
Un caritas: ” It is the INVALIDITY of the metaphysical matter of one of Satan’s very own, Angelo Roncali…”
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Come on now Un Caritas. You were just exposed as a complete fool for claiming the election was invalid due to dates, and now you’re switching arguments. First apologize to everyone on here for lying to them about the dates and then I’ll reply to your latest idiotic argument. And don’t forget to retract your heresy about the Church no longer possessing apostolic succession.
Let me post again what you wrote, O’ blind one:
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Un Caritas: “Okay now you poor, poor, miscreant fool Marie Tageye, the floor is now yours. Demonstrate now for all eyes to see, precisely how Pope Pius XII somehow DID NOT MEAN WHAT HE MEANT, when he utterly as literally and pristinely commanded that the business of electing the next Roman Pontiff MUST BEGIN BY DAY 18, WITHOUT ANY DISTINCTIONS, THEREFORE WITHOUT ANY EXCEPTIONS, and with the consequence of ANYTHING occurring apart from his precise commands, as being, “NULL and VOID”. Amen. Alleluia.”
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Not only were you wrong about the number of days after the death of Pius XII that the conclave actually convened, but you were wrong about the number of days Pius XII allowed. It wasn’t 18, it was 20, dumb dumb. 18 is the number of days Pius XI’s legislation allowed.
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Read again what the legislation you’ve been misrepresenting actually says:
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Pope Pius XII, Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis, #37: “We also prescribe that after the death of the pontiff the cardinals present are to wait 15 full days for the absent cardinals. Permission is granted the Sacred College of Cardinals to delay the beginning of the conclave for a few more days; however,ONCE 20 DAYS AT MOST HAVE PASSED, THE CARDINAL ELECTORS PRESENT ARE TO ENTER THE CONCLAVE AND PROCEED TO THE BUSINESS OF THE ELECTION.”
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Now O’ blind one, apologize to Marie Tageye for insulting her, and then apologize to everyone else for lying to them about Pius XII’s legislation. And don’t forget to retract your heresy about the Church no longer possessing apostolic succession.
JPeters:
I have a copy of the document you’re quoting from and I’m going to copy/paste #37 directly.
Pope Pius XII, Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis, #37:
“We order also that, when it happens that the Pontiff leaves this life, the Cardinals who are present are required to wait for fifteen full days only; in spite of this requirement, the power is granted to the Sacred College of Cardinals to postpone entry into the Conclave even for another two or three days; nevertheless, the rule is that after eighteen days at the most have elapsed on which the funeral rites of the deceased Pontiff are celebrated, the Cardinals, in whatever number are there present, must immediately enter the Conclave and proceed to the business of election.”
The .pdf is here:
https://betrayedcatholics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/VASannot.pdf
Where can I find the document with 20 days quoted above?
It looks like the 20 day quote was from a later legislation. But the conclave that elected John XXIII still met in 16 days, which is well withing the requirements of Pius XII’s legislation.
Yes.
So in other words, the “later legislation” would have been immaterial at the time. Got it.
So according to the Wiki article, we have the conclave opening on 25 Oct 1958 (day 16), and Angelo Roncalli elected on 28 Oct 1958 (day 19), and all that fuzzy business of the white/black smoke on 26 Oct 1958 (day 17).
Good enough.
Hi James,
Of course it also had to be a canonically valid conclave, which of course it was not as other stated rules were obviously broken, resulting in a Roncalli (et al) being sent out onto the balcony to begin pedaling “the operation of error” to the masses of people who just didn’t quite care about their faith enough to know any better.
There’s absolutely nowhere to go with anyone who dares to deny that a new religion along with all of its new “sacraments” was instituted, and who wants to discount “some bull” (CUM EX APOSTOLATUS OFFICIO) which the Pope ENACTED, DETERMINED, DECREED AND DEFINED, IN PERPETUITY…to AVERT the VERY ABOMINATION and chaos that is obviously BEFORE THEIR LEGALLY BLIND EYES. Absolutely UNbelievable to those with eyes to see.
So we have yet another example where IC was wrong.
“Some bull” from the 1500s, as Tom A recently stated. There’s a chasm between us just as AT CALVARY and just as there will be at THE END.
Yes.
Strictly speaking, Angelo Roncalli’s “election” could not be a question of form. It was only and definitely a question of matter.
And history speaks plainly of itself.
No doubt about the question of canonical form and no doubt about the matter. John XXIII was validly elected Pope.
IC was dead wrote about the number of days it took for the conclave to meet, and IC is a heretic for claiming the Church no longer possess apostolic succession.
Hi ASB:
Yes those Papal Bulls are anvils of Truth. Yes means yes, and no, no.
Thank God in Heaven we have them.
ASB: “Of course it also had to be a canonically valid conclave, which of course it was not as other stated rules were obviously broken…”
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Really. What other stated rule of Pius XII’s legislation was obviously broken?
LOL. I suppose then there won’t be any objections coming from YOU if/when these agent reprobates “canonize” Montini, your “good Saint John’s” partner in CRIME(S) against JESUS CHRIST.
JPeters,
Would it be fair to say then, that you would consider all the men elected as Popes since and of course, including Angelo Roncalli, no different at all from their predecessors? And legitimate successors to St Peter?
I’m asking out of curiosity for what you confess publicly, for the sake of understanding your position of apostolic succession, which you stated earlier.
It is precisely because I AM FALLIBLE that I now follow the command and directives of the authentic and true Church Magisterium and true Popes (Christ’s Voice) and no longer my own judgment. I WAS following my own fallible judgment which was doing nothing but lead me on the path to hell. Cum ex Apostolatus Officio, for but one but one HUGE one, tells me that I am correct to reject the false Popes and the bishops you all follow and lean on to receive your faux sacraments. “Cum ex…” was written because of what was evidenced to already be in progress, in the 1500s, the culmination of which occurred in 1958 and continues INTO THE NOW.
OBVIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are all blind as bats. God help you all! I will not be moved. You all can keep going in circles in your obstinacy, while committing sacrilege all the while, into the vortex dragging you down to hell. I pity you, each one. However, I don’t wish that for any of you nor for my own worst enemy!
I don’t have time but for one, anyone EVER suspected of heresy is ineligible for the Papacy (see Cum ex…) and he WAS a heretic (he fully participated in Orthodox services, for just one of many). No answer, however, will help someone that doesn’t want the Truth so I won’t waste anymore time than I already have right here.
2 Thess Ch. 2
JPeters, the Gnostic fool on his definitive road to Hell,
“Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, Pope Pius XII’s Apostolic
Constitution on Papal Election Law:
“37. We order also that, when it happens that the Pontiff leaves this life, the Cardinals who are
present are required to wait for fifteen full days only; in spite of this requirement, the power is
granted to the Sacred College of Cardinals to postpone entry into the Conclave even for another
two or three days; nevertheless, the rule is that after eighteen days at the most have elapsed on
which the funeral rites of the deceased Pontiff are celebrated, the Cardinals, in whatever number
are there present, must immediately enter the Conclave and proceed to the business of election.”
JPeters, the non-Catholic, religion of man adherent and master proponent, as a liar and deceiver, on his sure and certain path to his very own personal eternity with his Prince, Lucifer, as you once again evidence your disgustingly, grotesque, jingoistic, masquerade, as the little man that you are, you hideous fool. You have no foundational concept of what you write, you imbecilic moron. Yours’ is a prose of utterly meaningless platitudes, contrived within the mind of a mental minstrel, you utter clown. Go back to your Lodge from whence you came, you miscreant heretic.
The maximum days given by the full Apostolic Power and Authority of the one who held the keys to bind and loose, you mindless moron, even had it been 20, has no bearing on the fact of the invalid Conclave, per se. What the absolute time limit means, without any ability to alter as in one iota, that exquisitely finite 18 day limit, without the Conclave being deemed then as, “null and void”, by he who held the keys to bind and loose, is that there is no turning back, you jingoistic and sophomoric fool. The time limit expired as FOREVER, 61+ years ago now. So tell us again genius, what the difference between 18 and 20 days is, when 61+ years have passed beyond those days, you imbecilic, capricious idiot. APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION IS FOREVER NOW LOST, JPeters, you mentally deranged, heretical fool, on your sure and certain path to Hell. Amen. Alleluia. The Saints in Heaven will celebrate you there, you heretic.
As the, “Conclave”, which, “elected”, one of Satan’s own, as Angelo Roncalli, was INVALID, a true as valid Conclave never met to begin the business of electing the next Roman Pontiff within 18 days, you imbecilic fool, thus the Papal Election Law of Pope Pius XII was VIOLATED, as the Conclave simply MUST BE VALID, you moron. Since the 18 days to meet for the business of electing the next Holy Roman Pontiff after the death of Pope Pius XII passed now 61+ years ago, with no possibility of turning back, APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION HAS NOW FOREVER ENDED in this scorched and barren world, you non-Catholic fool. You deny the Holy Faith as you deny the divine, living, perpetual as unending and unchanging Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. Pope Leo XIII infallibly taught the following in, “Satis Cognitum”, which you deny in your masquerade of the Lefebvre false church of Antichrist, the, “pious deception”, of Lucifer’s own church, you heretical imbecile:
” For it is the nature and object of a foundation to support the unity of the whole edifice and to give stability to it, rather than to each component part; and in the present case this is much more applicable, since Christ the Lord wished that by the strength and solidity of the foundation the gates of hell should be prevented from prevailing against the Church. All are agreed that the divine promise must be understood of the Church as a whole, and not of any certain portions of it. These can indeed be overcome by the assaults of the powers of hell, as in point of fact has befallen some of them.”
And so JPeters, return to your hole, your Lodge, you minstrel gigolo, from whence you came. You are no more Catholic than your Pope, Jorge Bergoglio from the pits of Hell, you imbecilic moron. God save your soul. In caritas.
Dear james__o,
Firstly, JPeters is vile. He’s now back out of his dark hole to spin and deceive, as that is all this pseudo-intellectual, imbecilic moron has ever done here. He dances around Tom A. It’s been awhile since the coward has used the, “JPeters”, moniker. There have been others he’s used and I’ve called him out on it in the past. His style of writing evidences his signature, as he possesses an humanly implacable hatred for Truth and as thus for the Incarnate Son of God. Amen. God have mercy on his hideous soul, as he is objectively on his way to Hell. Amen.
As it relates now the Papal Election Law of Pope Pius XII. The only reason that I have made an issue of the 18 day maximum time limit, with no possibility of exception, at the pain of the Conclave then being deemed by the Vicar of Christ as to be, “null and void”, is that this allows all to know with apodictic certitude that Apostolic Succession is now and has been since Oct. 27, 1958 (which is 18 days after the death of Pope Pius XII) , FOREVER LOST, as the 18 days now passed 61+ years ago. I was not making the point that Roncalli’s election was invalid because the Conclave did not meet to begin the business of the election within the definitive 18 day window, rather because Roncalli was invalid matter and because there was a maximum time limit of 18 days to meet with a VALID CONCLAVE, and of course as res ipsa loquitur, Apostolic Succession is forever gone. This is deFide. JPeters is simply a mentally deranged hater of Jesus the Christ, as this is to be objectively understood. Amen. The loss of Apostolic Succession is deFide, as the prophetic time of the loss of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and that time as being the same time of Antichrist being present in this world as the efficient cause of the loss, is deFide, as per the inerrant teaching of the Early Church Fathers in unanimity. Amen. Alleluia. It is simply wrongly reasoned to believe that you can have Apostolic Succession intact and lose the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass simultaneously. Amen. There is no such Church teaching nor is there any such precedent for this belief, and of course there is no precedent, as Antichrist enters this world but once. Amen. The Apostle declared in 2 Thess 2, that Satan would bring forth the, “son of perdition”, as the, “man of sin”, after, “he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way.” Henry Edward Cardinal Manning, a true Bishop in union with a true Pope, infallible thus in teaching the Faith, taught that, “he who now holdeth”, is the Vicar of Christ, and of course he is. This is simply right reason. God bless and keep you, james__o. In caritas.
Prove your accusation now, miss 2Vermont, or are you akin to invoking calumny, you non-Catholic, miscreant fool. God save you. In caritas.
The crowd at St Peters didn’t care enough. I love your ability to read souls and their interior motives on the other side of the world sixty years ago. It speaks volumes. I’m sure you would have figured it all out immediately.
Un Caritas: The only reason that I have made an issue of the 18 day maximum time limit, with no possibility of exception, at the pain of the Conclave then being deemed by the Vicar of Christ as to be, “null and void”, is that this allows all to know with apodictic certitude that Apostolic Succession is now and has been since Oct. 27, 1958 (which is 18 days after the death of Pope Pius XII) , FOREVER LOST, as the 18 days now passed 61+ years ago. I was not making the point that Roncalli’s election was invalid because the Conclave did not meet to begin the business of the election within the definitive 18 day window…”
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Who are you trying to kid, Un Caritas? I endured the tortuous task of reading through your rambling, incoherent, and heretical comments yesterday, and you’re all over the place. First you say the conclave is invalid because Roncalli wasn’t ELECTED within 18 days, the you say it was invalid because the cardinals didn’t MEET until the 18th day.
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Un Caritas, the heretic who denies Apostolic Succession wrote: “Angelo Roncalli could never have been Pope, SIMPLY BECAUSE the Election Law of Pope Pius XII was broken in his faux election. DAY 19, HIS FAUX ELECTION OCCURRED, while Pope Pius XII allowed for ONLY as ONLY, a MAXIMUM of 18 days for the true, “interregnum”, thus, and his faux election was then, the genesis of the church of Antichrist, AS IT OCCURRED ON DAY 19, October 28, 1958. Amen. Alleluia. Apostolic Succession was in that ONE DAY, thus lost to the world unto the Last Day.
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“Simply because?” Hey dumb, dumb, Pius XII didn’t give a time limit for how long the interregnum could last. He said the conclave had to begin in 18 days, which it did. Amen. Alleluia.
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Un Caritas the heretic who denies apostolic succession wrote: “Pope Pius XII, definitively as Authoritatively defined precisely what it is in 1945, with his Apostolic Constitution on Papal Election Law, “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis”, which implicitly holds, “interregnum”, as part of it, as it is implacably inseparable, that is, “interregnum”, from the time of the death of one Pontiff unto the canonically valid election of the next. Amen. This is Catholic 101. He Authoritatively commanded in VAS that a MAXIMUM, WITHOUT DISTINCTION THUS WITHOUT EXCEPTION, of 18 days could pass from the death of one Vicar of Christ unto the day that the Cardinals would meet to canonically elect the next. He commanded that whatever number of Cardinals were present by day 18 and again MAXIMUM, they MUST then undertake the business of the election. YOU DO KNOW THAT, “18”, IS NOT, “19”, DO YOU NOT, LIBRORUM???”
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The conclave didn’t meet in 18 days, dumb, dumb. It met in 16 days. “Full Stop, Amen. Alleluia.” Now, I want to you apologize to Liborum and everyone else, not only for lying to them about how long it took for the conclave to meet, but also for professing the heresy that apostolic succession “is now gone forever.”
You poor, poor, miscreant fool, TPS,
You have no understanding whatsoever, that what you actually as tacitly declare here, in this pathetic, non-Catholic as heretical, little comment of yours, is your own personal denial of the Catholic Faith, as you deny the Incarnation, as you deny the absolute requirement, deFide, of the RECEPTION of God’s grace, such that the perfectly wretched human creature can will the good over the privation of the good which is due, in the religious or moral act in question, you utter fool. You opine in fiat your utterly pathetic understanding of Catholic truth as here: “I love your ability to read souls and their interior motives…”. What in Lucifer’s own Hell are you claiming, you imbecilic moron? You deny Jesus the Christ patently in that inverted understanding of truth which you objectively display. Amen. “You will KNOW them by their fruits.” You DENY THE CHRIST, objectively and outright here. You have no excuse and you have no rebuttal, you ignorant fool, as this thing itself speaks, as res ipsa loquitur. Abjure your error as you remain on your own personal path to eternity with your Prince. Amen. “You will KNOW them by their fruits.” TPS now changes the meaning of the word, “KNOW”, as he utterly as literally affronts the Incarnate Son of God Himself. You have utterly NO CONCEPT of, “the operation of error to believe lying”, as you objectively receive it, in this time of the desolation of Antichrist, you miserable, imbecilic fool. The, “Great Apostasy”, is now lived at its summa and summit and TPS yet awaits it, you perfectly miserable wretch. Wake up man. May God have mercy on you TPS and on me. Save your wretched soul. In caritas.
Who in Lucifer’s own Hell do you think that you are JPeters, other than his slave, you implacably, imbecilic, hateful moron?,
18 days maximum to begin the business of the election of the next Roman Pontiff, yes. You utterly, sophomoric, imbecilic, pseudo-intellectual, creature freak from the underbelly of the earth, who simply overlooks, once and again, as you falsely accusation as calumny, you hideous wretch, the REALITY AS IT IS, TRUTH THUS, that the Conclave which simply MUST HAVE BEGUN THE BUSINESS of electing the next Roman Pontiff———–HAD TO BE A valid CONCLAVE. In your Luciferian hubris, as is objectively witnessed of you, along with your pseudo-intellective conjecture as written in screed time and again, you simply miss the, “MINOR”, point, that the Conclave which HAD to meet within 18 days of the death of Pope Pius XII, had to be a VALID Conclave, you idiotic, pseudo-intellectual moron as imbecile. God have mercy on your putrid and rotting soul, JPeters. Amen. In caritas.
Un Caritas the heretic who denies apostolic succession wrote: “HAD TO BE A valid CONCLAVE.”
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Hey Dumb, dumb, the conclave met in time and it validly elected a Pope. So did the conclaves that elected Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, Benedict, and Pope Francis, the currently reigning Pope, whose punishment of a Papacy I enjoy more and more each day, as I witness the wicked Catholics suffer the punishment they deserve.
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Do you want the PROOF that these pope were all validly elected, dumb, dumb? The proof is the heresy that you now profess: if the papacy has been vacant for 62 years, there would be no apostolic succession. That would mean Christ was either a liar or Satan triumphed over Him by destroying the Church. That heresy, which you now profess, is the refutation of sede vacantism, dumb, dumb, but you are too blind to see it.
Dumb, Dumb: “. You have utterly NO CONCEPT of, “the operation of error to believe lying”, as you objectively receive it, in this time of the desolation of Antichrist, you miserable, imbecilic fool.”
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Hey dumb, dumb, you’ve been reading the writings of the heretic Teresa Benns, haven’t you? I bet that’s where you got your heresies. Now it’s all making sense. Mr. Magoo could spot the contradictions in Benn’s arguments from a hundred feet away, yet you were to blind to see them. Why am I not surprised? Let’s take a look at one of her contradictions de fide:
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Teresa Benns who helped elect Antipope Michael, wrote:
“The Baltimore Catechism #3 teaches the Church must have both the four marks and the three attributes to exist, but without the three attributes she cannot have the four marks. THE VATICAN COUNCIL DEFINED that the attributes and marks are matters of Divine Faith contained in Holy Scripture. They also are found in the Creed. WE MUST BELIEVE THEY EXIST AND WILL EXIST UNTIL THE END OF TIME WITH AN UNHESITATING ASSENT. . But we cannot believe this on the one hand, assenting to Divine Faith, and on the other hand deny another tenet of Divine Faith. These attributes and marks cannot exist in a “Church” not possessing unity (achievable only under one head, the pope) or apostolic succession, as Reverend Kinkead indicates in his catechetical discussion on the attributes. Pope Pius IX taught in 1864 that if even one mark of the Church was lacking, She could not exist at all. 22 REFUSING TO ADMIT THAT THESE MARKS ARE LACKING IN THE MANNER IN WHICH CHRIST INTENDED THEM TO EXIST IS is not invincible ignorance but a most insidious brand of self-deceit and ultimately A DENIAL OF FAITH.”
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Did you catch that, dumb, dumb? She says Vatican I defined that the marks will always exist, and then says anyone who believes they still exist today are guilty of denying the faith. So, according to your master, the only way to remain faithful today is to reject what the Church has infallibly defined. That’s the kind of absurdity you find throughout her idiotic arguments.
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If nothing else, you heretics are good for some comedy relief.
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And in reparation for all the complaints about Pope Francis, let me take this opportunity to thank God for allowing his scandalous papacy, so I get to witness of all the evil and malcontent Catholics suffer the punishment they so richly deserve. Viva il Papa Francesco!
C’est l’amour des anges!
merci beaucoup.
JPeters,
The Chair of Peter being vacant for a time (even decades) does not necessarily imply the end of Apostolic Succession.
However, to hold Roncalli, Montini, Luciani, Wotjyla, Ratzinger, and Bergoglio as true Popes (despite the heresies, errors, and falsehoods they’ve taught and promulgated) would in fact imply that the gates of hell have prevailed:
https://novusordowatch.org/2015/12/have-gates-of-hell-prevailed/
IC,
Yes, I think I understand what you are saying now. You mean that after having that 18 day “window” pass by, and of course that bogus election being invalid, that all the succeeded that point was a forgone conclusion. And considering that Pius XII was the last legitimate Pope, it must be a downhill corruption all the way.
Total loss of jurisdiction. So much for the idea of a long interregnum, or retaining Apostolic Succession.
Merci.
JPeters,
I think you guys are ignoring “A Simple Man” because what he said is the truth “The Chair of Peter being vacant for a time (even decades) does not necessarily imply the end of Apostolic Succession.
However, to hold Roncalli, Montini, Luciani, Wotjyla, Ratzinger, and Bergoglio as true Popes (despite the heresies, errors, and falsehoods they’ve taught and promulgated) would in fact imply that the gates of hell have prevailed:
https://novusordowatch.org/2015/12/have-gates-of-hell-prevailed/
Roncalli was a heretic before he was elected and was plotting to remake the Church in his modernist UN loving, Man loving image -Papal Bull CUM EX APOSTALATUS OFFICIO Paul VI stated: “OUR CONSTITUTION, WHICH IS TO REMAIN VALID IN PERPETUITY WE ENACT, DETERMINE, DECREE, AND DEFINE that if ever a Bishop, Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate, a Cardinal or a Legate, or even a sovereign Pontiff, had, before their elevation to the Cardinalate or Pontificate, deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy, the promotion or elevation—even if it had taken place with the unanimous assent of the Cardinals—is null and void, without value and one cannot say that it is valid because the person concerned accepts the Office, receives the Consecration, and then enters into possession of the government and administration [of the Office], or by the homage rendered to him by all; one cannot accept him as legitimate.. Those thus promoted are to be avoided as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs.. It is not permitted for anyone to reduce the bearing of this document containing approbation, innovation, sanction and suppression of dispositions and of decree, nor to act against it. Let whoever presumes to attack this document know that he is calling down the wrath of Almighty God and of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul.”
Now the wrath of God is upon the Conciliar Church and even De Lubac admitted its apostasy and he was one of its proponents here and I do not know why JPeters you can not see it
The conciliar authorities don’t want to admit that the third secret of Fatima is about them because as Cardinal Oddi said “The Apostasy begins at the top”. One liberal Fr. Henri De Lubac S.J.made Cardinal by JP II and highly respected by the false pope- stated at the Institute of Renewal in the Church at Toronto in 1967, “It is clear that the Church is facing a grave crisis. Under the name of ‘the new Church,’ ‘the post-conciliar Church,’ a different Church from that of Jesus Christ is now trying to establish itself; an anthropocentric society threatened with immanentist apostasy which is allowing itself to be swept along in a movement of general abdication under the pretext of renewal, ecumenism or adaptation,” From Henri de Lubac, S.J. in Témoinage Chrétien (Paris, September 1, 1967) as quoted in Dietrich von Hildebrand’s The Trojan Horse in the City of God Sophia Institute Press, 1993 p. 8. Apparently Fr. De Lubac made the rounds with this statement in his lectures. Hildebrand quoted inte Temoignage Chretian (Paris), Sept, 1, 1967. Or see http://alcazar.net/salvation1.html
In Caritas,
I follow that Catholic Church not “folks on this blog”. I really don’t know much about Thom A. Sure I look at what people post and read it as I do your posts. Are you laughing or upset at what people say about you? I get confused sometimes by your response to peoples criticism of you. Everyone has a right to defend themselves but it seems that it has really hit your heart to say that “2Vermont who actually wrote that she was somehow relieved to, “know”, that, “In caritas”, was simply a, “bot”, a machine and not an human person, when the imbecilic, pseudo-intellectual, diabolically perverse, so called, “mothermostforgiving”, actually wrote that in this space a few weeks ago. 2Vermont was, relieved, to, “know”, that I was simply a machine and not human. You cannot make this satanic stuff up, james__o. Misery loves company and they are sensing you as somewhat vulnerable to their poisonous fruit. God bless and keep you, james__o. In caritas.”
I don’t think it is poisonous fruit to try to correct people who think that apostolic Succession is dead on this earth as you do when Leo XIII said that the magisterium is living. Ok. Now I am sorry if you think the devil is attacking you but he attacks everyone and we are no better than Jesus Christ who was tempted by Satan in the desert. I don’t think you are a “machine” at all- you are an angry man who has been betrayed by this horrible Conciliar Church as we have all been and you are trying to follow Jesus Christ and His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. For some reason though you behave like a Rottweiler on steroids and you need to realize that when people feel bit by you they are going to react. I understand you because my grandpa was in the military and he was a good man but a real grump. He was a Catholic convert and I loved him. It is ok God knows what is in your heart and I know that you are a man who loves God in your way but you are also supposed to love your neighbor as yourself. If you are has hard on yourself as you are on others I really think you must think you are in big trouble also.
If you attack me it is because you think you can help me save my soul, or perhaps justify your position which you believe to be right. God bless you and help you to see that you will get more converts to the Catholic faith whole and entire- by following a true Saint like John Mary Vienney who literally wrestled with the devil In Caritas . Please in your pride look at what I am telling you.
Did John Mary Vienney call this guy a “miserable miscreant fool here??
A Protestant once approached St. John Mary Vianney saying, ‘though we are not together on earth, we shall be together in heaven’. The saint looked into the man’s eyes and said gently: “As the tree leans, so the tree falls. If we do not live together on earth, we shall not live together in heaven. Death makes no change in that”. The Protestant upon hearing these gentle words of the saint considered them, renounced his error, and became a Catholic. see SPIRIT OF THE CURE D’ARS, Bowden, 1864
Ecumenism and Catholic Teaching
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/ecumenism/ecumen.html
In Caritas I meant say I follow the Catholic Church NOT “that Catholic Church” it was a type o. Please don’t go off on a tangent just because I typed it wrong. I am not infallible with my English and neither are you.
Dear Marie,
I want to interject here and I repeat that you are confusing the “Living Magisterium” with the Church Hierarchy; what is meant by the Living Magisterium is not the same as the “living”, as in visible, flesh-and-blood HIERARCHY.
You do not know me and what I had for long been about and therefore you don’t know all that I have given up (although it was a deception) in tremendous sorrow, in exchange for the Truth and the real hope of gaining heaven in return. I truly had to die to SELF. There is plenty of proof to be found when it comes to the misuse and lie of “supplied Jurisdiction”. There is proof that I don’t believe I have even posted here, but anyone who really wants it too can and will find it. All Jurisdiction flows from the Pope, period. If you have no food, and your neighbor comes to you starving, how do you give him food when you do not have any in your cupboard to give? Anyone who sincerely loves and wants nothing but Truth will make it their #1 priority to put aside everything they think and everything they feel and everything they’ve been told, beg the Blessed Mother for guidance and the Truth, and then be willing to truly dig deep into the issue of Jurisdiction to find the Truth of the matter, because again, one’s salvation depends on this. This became my #1 priority, and only by the Grace and sheer mercy of God did I recognize it as such, and the pain I suffered as I went through this process was excruciating. Once I settled in moral certitude, all of my panic and anxiety was relieved, and FOR ONCE, all of the doubts and questions I had for YEARS were obliterated and I was AT PEACE. It was never about me – I no longer clung to my own opinions, or rather those of others which I had merely adopted. I LOVE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH GIVES ME JOY THAT THE WORLD CANNOT GIVE.
I can safely speak for IC in telling you that he is not hurt by anyone here or any words or opinion. He has defined the terms he uses and if you look up the definitions they are appropriate and called for when used to combat those who are obstinate in their error and heresy and convey the seriousness of the offense against God and the Truth. Our battle is not against flesh and blood but principalities and powers in high places, as St. Paul tells us. Now think on that for a moment and then perhaps you may see his strategy, so to speak, in a new light, As IC has stated, heresy is an offense greater than murder, for it murders a soul – a soul paid for by the BLOOD of JESUS CHRIST. Wouldn’t you agree that such an offense must then be confronted with some degree of severity? Wasn’t it St. Nicholas who punched a heretic in the face? Pope St. Pius X was known to get quite angry with and over heresy and heretics as well. There is such a thing as RIGHTEOUS ANGER – look it up. Just look where all the “softness” and effeminacy has gotten us, for goodness’ sake! The “fruits of Vatican II” is partly to blame no matter where you “stand” now – you have been successfully programmed and neutralized.
I’m not sure that you have read many of the sermons of the Curé of Ars, for they are hardly sugar-coated any many should make one tremble with fear. Notably, St. John Vianney was one who stressed that: “THE FAITH COMES BEFORE SACRAMENTS.”
Well, keep on persecuting away, all. The fact is that I couldn’t possibly care any less and I’m honored and humbled to be persecuted for the Truth – for Jesus Christ. My only motive here has been to help and encourage someone – anyone – as I was one helped. You all can do and partake of that which you will. I’ve given up all for the Truth, having chosen the straight and narrow road of the few with the hope of winning the crown of eternal life:
“Blessed are they that suffer persecution for JUSTICE’ SAKE: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, truly, for my sake: Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven.” Mt 5: 10-11
*Epistle of St. Jude 10-13
A Simple Beggar,
Yes I agree with much of what you say. I really do. Please answer this what was supplying the jurisdiction for periods of 2 and three years during interregnums when there was NO, NO, NO pope. Can you give me a book or theologian or doctor of the Church. Then can you tell me if you think there is a time limit to an interregnum? Please I need this directly answered by you. I have been studying this matter. I do NOT think when Leo XIII talked about a “living magisterium” that he was talking about the Vatican II hierarchy. They are dead men walking and not the successors of the Apostles as is evident by their manifest heresy.
Please tell me what you think Leo XIII and Pius XIII meant when he talked about here
AD CAELI REGINAM ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII ON PROCLAIMING THE QUEENSHIP OF MARY TO THE VENERABLE BRETHREN, THE PATRIARCHS, PRIMATES, ARCHBISHOPS, BISHIOPS, AND OTHER LOCAL ORDINARIES IN PEACE AND COMMUNION WITH THE HOLY SEE
45. For the rest, in this as in other points of Christian doctrine, “the proximate and universal norm of truth” is for all the living Magisterium of the Church, which Christ established “also to illustrate and explain those matters which are contained only in an obscure way, and implicitly in the deposit of faith.”[60]
60. Pius XII, litt. enc. Humani generis: AAS XLII, 1950, p. 569.
As Pope Leo XIII taught in Satis Cognitum:
“If the living magisterium could be in any way false — an evident contradiction would follow, for then God would be the author of error.”
Every Revealed Truth, without Exception, Must be Accepted Satis Cognitum 29th day of June, in the year 1896
sec 9″…Wherefore, as appears from what has been said, Christ instituted in the Church a living, authoritative and permanent Magisterium, which by His own power He strengthened, by the Spirit of truth He taught, and by miracles confirmed. He willed and ordered, under the gravest penalties, that its teachings should be received as if they were His own. As often, therefore, as it is declared on the authority of this teaching that this or that is contained in the deposit of divine revelation, it must be believed by every one as true. If it could in any way be false, an evident contradiction follows; for then God Himself would be the author of error in man. “Lord, if we be in error, we are being deceived by Thee” (Richardus de S. Victore, De Trin., lib. i., cap. 2). In this wise, all cause for doubting being removed, can it be lawful for anyone to reject any one of those truths without by the very fact falling into heresy?-without separating himself from the Church?-without repudiating in one sweeping act the whole of Christian teaching? For such is the nature of faith that nothing can be more absurd than to accept some things and reject others. Faith, as the Church teaches, is “that supernatural virtue by which, through the help of God and through the assistance of His grace, we believe what he has revealed to be true, not on account of the intrinsic truth perceived by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God Himself, the Revealer, who can neither deceive nor be deceived” (Conc. Vat., Sess. iii., cap. 3). If then it be certain that anything is revealed by God, and this is not believed, then nothing whatever is believed by divine Faith: for what the Apostle St. James judges to be the effect of a moral deliquency, the same is to be said of an erroneous opinion in the matter of faith. “Whosoever shall offend in one point, is become guilty of all” (Ep. James ii., 10). Nay, it applies with greater force to an erroneous opinion. For it can be said with less truth that every law is violated by one who commits a single sin, since it may be that he only virtually despises the majesty of God the Legislator. But he who dissents even in one point from divinely revealed truth absolutely rejects all faith, since he thereby refuses to honour God as the supreme truth and the formal motive of faith. “In many things they are with me, in a few things not with me; but in those few things in which they are not with me the many things in which they are will not profit them” (S. Augustinus in Psal. liv., n. 19). And this indeed most deservedly; for they, who take from Christian doctrine what they please, lean on their own judgments, not on faith; and not “bringing into captivity every understanding unto the obedience of Christ” (2 Cor. x., 5), they more truly obey themselves than God. “You, who believe what you like, believe yourselves rather than the gospel” (S. Augustinus, lib. xvii., Contra Faustum Manichaeum, cap. 3).
It can not just be in on paper it has to be in the APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION PASSED DOWN TILL THE END OF TIME and because we are early creatures and Jesus walked the earth in order for us to know it and before He ascended to Heaven he gave that power to the Apostles and their successors to teach all things He taught- it must be successors that live and breath on this earth as he did. I don’t say as you do that you have to have a pope to give that succession during an interregnum and I do not agree that there is a time limit on an interregnum.
JPeters,
I don’t agree with Benns electing so called “pope Michael” at all and it shows she definitely was mixed up but she did say she repented of that. Now one time for the fun of it I checked out this clown false pope Michael because I heard about he circumstances of his “election” and I have to say his theology sounded much more Catholic than the Apostate Bergoglio and you and I both know that antipopes can go to heaven . Remember antipope. Saint Hippolytus. Of course he repented of his heresy and schism and died a martyr and came back into the fold.
I have been on her site and I know several interesting thing. Benns also uses the praise “In Caritas” and also she says Amen so I wondered about that. Some of the lingo is similar to the “In Caritas” on this blog. But anyway all of these people that you also mock saying dumb, dumb dumb are also trying to be Catholic and you point out there inconsistencies but you have a few yourself regarding the Vatican II “popes” and so you might want to mock other people yourself. It is true though if the Church was without a pope wouldn’t people want the college of Cardinals to elect one??
Now JPeters let me ask you a question do you think it is an insane idea and a “dumb idea” that the “whole college of Cardinals COULD ELECT A FALSE POPE/ANTI-POPE. Well guess what and I am not going to apply your dumb, dumb, dumb to you as you did to others but Pope Paul IV did just that when he said here:
Papal Bull CUM EX APOSTALATUS OFFICIO Paul VI 1555 stated: “OUR CONSTITUTION, WHICH IS TO REMAIN VALID IN PERPETUITY WE ENACT, DETERMINE, DECREE, AND DEFINE that if ever a Bishop, Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate, a Cardinal or a Legate, or even a sovereign Pontiff, had, before their elevation to the Cardinalate or Pontificate, deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy, the promotion or elevation—even if it had taken place with the UNANIMOUS ASSENT OF ALL THE CARDINALS — IS NULL AND VOID, WITHOUT VALUE and one cannot say that it is valid because the person concerned accepts the Office, receives the Consecration, and then enters into possession of the government and administration [of the Office], or by the homage rendered to him by all; one cannot accept him as legitimate.. Those thus promoted are to be avoided as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs.. It is not permitted for anyone to reduce the bearing of this document containing approbation, innovation, sanction and suppression of dispositions and of decree, nor to act against it. Let whoever presumes to attack this document know that he is calling down the wrath of Almighty God and of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul.”
He said this JPeters because he saw the heresy and apostasy of whole nations like England out of the Church and he imagined that that might happen to a whole College of Cardinals that they would elect a heretic and that it would be NULL AND VOID. Now if such learned Church men at that time could become corrupted and do such a bad thing why couldn’t they do it today????
After all there have been popes take Honorius who were excommunicated III Council of Constantinople for a not well known private letter to Sergius at the time where he allowed the monothelite heresy to flourish. These frauds have done far more than that. Bellarmine said he was NOT a heretic but allowed heresy to flourish. What Bellarmine said was this,
St. Robert Bellarmine (1610), Doctor of the Church: “A pope who is a manifest heretic automatically (per se) ceases to be pope and head, just as he ceases automatically to be a Christian and a member of the Church. Wherefore, he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the teaching of all the ancient Fathers who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction.”
Now sure I guess we could quibble over what is a “manifest heresy” but I don’t think there is much to quibble about the loss of the Catholic faith which has occurred as a result of it Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church since Vatican II by Kenneth C. Jones index of Catholicism’s decline A review by Pat Buchanan reveals:
church, all the poisonous vapors of modernity entered, along with the Devil himself. Here are Jones’s grim statistics of Catholicism’s decline:
Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.
Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.
Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.
Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.
Religious Orders. For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by two-thirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven.
The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.
Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965. The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of pupils attending has fallen below 2 million — from 4.5 million.
Though the number of U.S. Catholics has risen by 20 million since 1965, Jones’ statistics show that the power of Catholic belief and devotion to the Faith are not nearly what they were.
Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965, while the annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002.
Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend.
Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a “symbolic reminder” of Jesus.
At the opening of Vatican II, reformers were all the rage. They were going to lead us out of our Catholic ghettos by altering the liturgy, rewriting the Bible and missals, abandoning the old traditions, making us more ecumenical, and engaging the world. And their legacy?
Now JPeters that was up to I think 2003 so it is FAR worse now.
I meant “earthly creatures- it was a type o.
JPeters:
It wouldn’t matter that the conclave met in time, because that’s not the point.
The point is, Roncalli was illegitimately elected, he was unsuitable and invalid matter, so your arguments are for naught. That’s what made the conclave worthless.
You would have to argue Roncalli’s Catholicity. The floor is yours.
2Vermont,
Actually, now that I’ve had a chance to look over it all again, it wasn’t IC that was wrong at all, it was my faulty understanding of what he fully meant. Or should I say “our” understanding, because I think a few other people did/do not fully understand his continual reference to “18 days”.
There’s no way that he could have ever meant that it was because the election was not done “in time”, because he would of had to think Angelo Roncalli was valid matter in the first place. And of course, no one would think to argue that IC ever considered Roncalli as valid matter.
He was only stressing that the 18 days commanded by Pius XII for a valid and legitimate election, are long lost and gone.
Within days, one fact was well down the Memory Hole: The fact that the first word that leapt to the lips of Bergoglio was “Bitch!” He shouted in the face of the Asian woman: “Bruja! Mano! Mano!”
I have read multiple news stories, and multiple opinion pieces, utterly devoid of any mention of the words Bergoglio spat in the woman’s face.
Anastasia, I’ve been following akacatholic for a little bit but only now just made an account to ask you about comments you made back on the post “Procreatio: non delenda est” where you made many good points regarding NFP. I am recently engaged, and between friends and family (only recently found tradition) have been trying to wade through all of the (at best) lackluster modern takes on NFP, to find a clear traditional stance on the issue. The closest I can find to an intellectually honest answer is essentially what you posited based off of the early church teachings on the matter.
Please help me if I’m wrong but this is what I see:
The mindset (barring extreme circumstances, and even then should probably not be done unless advised by a confessor) should clearly never be to avoid children, but it’s of course perfectly fine to have relations during an infertile period, as long as one does not specifically consciously avoid relations when the fertile period has returned.
With this in mind, I don’t even get why I should be taking an NFP course before getting married; if I needed NFP in order to get married, then I shouldn’t be getting married in the first place (already planning on avoiding kids as I’ve heard happens in pretty much most Novus Ordo circles) if I’m not financially or otherwise ready. Unless something terrible happens AFTER I’m married (lose a job/house/etc) which makes NFP necessary, I don’t see how NFP is anything but a temptation for us to have relations for the wrong reasons.
Would you agree with my current understanding, or is there anything else you could advise?
tinekeeper,
Contra Crawford (freely available online education as an eBook) has probably the most thorough defense of periodic continence in terms of compiling exactly what the Church taught about NFP: namely, that it is not **intrinsically** sinful, but that it can be ripe for abuse that would make then make it a sin against chastity, and as such should not be utilized willy-nilly without the advice or counsel of one’s pastor or spiritual director.
Marie I read a post on FB by a man who speaks Cantonese. Apparently he heard her say in that language “How could you let them suffer?” [the Chinese Catholics] He also heard Francis call her either “witch” or “bitch”. He wasn’t sure which but he thought it was one of those two.
In caritas – please choose another user name; you have as much charity/love as my cat. Your insults to others , particularly Tom A are unwarranted and out of place on a Catholic site. You need to stop right now. Thank you.
Oh VERY well said Tom! I’m a recently returned AKA blogger and was horrified and disappointed to see that In caritas and ASB are still issuing judgements, insulting people, and generally venting their Napoleon complexes willy nilly.
Well, welcome back. If it continues, I will be leaving. In recent days it seems to have settled down a bit, so I don’t know if Louie has contacted them. Either way, for now, there’s hope.