Why do we bother proselytizing, or to ask the question using the definition provided by Pope Francis, why do we seek to persuade others to embrace the Holy Catholic faith?
Well, for one, because it is precisely the mission of the Church to do so, but also because this is what charity demands of us.
Praying the Rosary this morning, it occurred to me that the Finding in the Temple is a fitting reflection on “proselytizing” as a supreme act of charity ordered toward helping those who long for Christ.
And his parents went every year to Jerusalem, at the solemn day of the pasch. And when he was twelve years old, they going up into Jerusalem, according to the custom of the feast, And having fulfilled the days, when they returned, the child Jesus remained in Jerusalem. And his parents knew it not. And thinking that he was in the company, they came a day’s journey and sought him among their kinsfolks and acquaintance. And not finding him, they returned into Jerusalem, seeking him. And it came to pass, that, after three days, they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, hearing them and asking them questions. And all that heard him were astonished at his wisdom and his answers. And seeing him, they wondered. And his mother said to him: Son, why hast thou done so to us? Behold thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said to them: How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be about my father’s business? (Luke 2:41-49)
Even among the greatest of saints, there is none in this life who attained the degree of unity with Christ as that which belonged to the Blessed Virgin Mary; the sinless Mother of God who ever rested and remained in the Divine will.
As Pope Pius XII stated in his Encyclical on the Queenship of Mary, Ad Caeli Reginam, “For from her union with Christ she attains a radiant eminence transcending that of any other creature.”
Though her immense privileges were undoubtedly a source of unshakeable and unspeakable joy, the likes of which were matched in degree only by the sorrows that pierced her Immaculate Heart, we contemplate in the fifth Joyful Mystery, the Finding in the Temple, how Our Lady was left to long for physical union with her Son and Savior when faced with His absence; her joy in some sense incomplete until such time as He was found.
This event in Our Blessed Mother’s life is a fitting image of the Christian journey wherein even those who are configured to Christ in the waters of Baptism, no matter how devout and sincere, are destined to long for more in this life until such time as they cease being separated from His Mystical Body, the Holy Catholic Church.
It is in the Holy Catholic Church alone where one finds:
- The temple wherein the voice of Our Lord is present in the sacred Magisterium that continues to teach and give wisdom in His name.
- The temple wherein the “Father’s business,” the work of redemption, is continued by Our Lord in the here-and-now in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
- The temple wherein Our Lord Jesus Christ is truly, really, and substantially present in the Most Holy Eucharist.
In short, we seek to persuade others to enter the Holy Catholic Church and to persist in the Holy Catholic faith because it is only in doing this that one may experience the joy of finding Our Blessed Lord in the Temple.
And what are we to think of those who refuse to proselytize?
It is as though they are among the company of Mary and Joseph, who in spite of knowing precisely where the Lord can be found, refuse to alleviate the sorrow of those who seek Him by pointing the way to the temple that is the Holy Catholic Church alone.
Unless, of course, they neither know nor believe that this is the case…
What I wonder is what is our personal responsibility regarding converting our family, friends and neighbours?
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In my world there is almost no opportunity to discuss anything other than who won the latest ballgame, what the darling kiddies are up to, or what bargain was available at Walmart. All of my neighbours wave at us as we return from Holy Mass – they are doing yard work, or mowing their grass. Is that our way to convert – just doing what God wants us to do?
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Just from my experience no one seems interested in being saved! And to bring up any part of the topic is greeted with silence, and a change of subject.
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By the way, can we vow never to use some of the language used by Modernists, like: ‘evangelize’ and ‘Traditional Catholic’ and ‘challenges’ and ‘walk’ and ‘homosexual’ and ‘partner’ and ‘significant other’ and ‘triumphalist’ and ‘mercy’ and ‘love?’
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Call me crazy but did anybody talk like this even 15 years ago – on the street, I mean? This jargon makes me nuts! It’s so VII and not necessary. There are perfectly good words out there, and we should not let the ‘enemy’ take over the way WE use them. There is a reason Pope Francis uses “proselytize” instead of convert – don’t let anyone tell you this man is not very, very clever.
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When the revolutionaries begin to take over, their first targets are the radio and TV stations. Control the voice that goes to the people and you control everything. Control the language and you control the thoughts.
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Sorry to blather on about this topic but it’s important (to me at least!).
Yes, I know ‘mercy’ and ‘love’ are fine words – they should not be used so lightly! And certainly not in a way that twists their true meaning…
The revolutionaries didn’t ‘take over’ the airwaves… they were there from the beginning — but just took their time to reveal their hands.
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The Church had and still has every opportunity to stake out its space in that area–but they don’t.
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I see today that Catholic blogs are growing, Catholic news media is growing–let’s hope this trend continues into ‘entertainment’ which is the great battlefield.
Well said Barbara. This new language is all very snaky.
Barbara, your comments echo the sentiments of many who visit this blog. “Is the Pope Catholic?” used to be a rhetorical question. Bergoglio may be many things, but he is NOT Catholic. There is nothing in his words or actions that could convince anyone that he believes in the Reign of Christ the King. Anyone, especially a pope, who does not promote the Kingship of Christ is an enemy of Christ. “Did you not know I must be about My Father’s business?” This is the obligation of the Vicar of Christ on earth.
And as Louie says in this excellent piece, Our Lord’s words, from this first time we hear Him speak as a lad in the Temple, to His words from the Holy Cross – were as clear as a bell – His words rang out then, and they ring out now – but only to those who have ears to hear.
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Our Lord cannot force anyone to hear. I feel terribly sad to think that Pope Francis has gone astray from the perennial teachings of Holy Mother Church. He obviously wants to do good. We can see this, and yet we know he’s terribly mistaken in what he does and says. And there doesn’t seem any way to reach him.
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I guess it is all about asking Our Lady to help him. Something confusing is that Pope Francis, every once in a while, actually speaks truth. But it’s always wrapped in error. It seems as if he is possessed. I don’t want to get crazy here, but you know one minute he’s saying something quite orthodox, next minute he’s saying there is no God, only Father, Son and Holy Spirit!?!?!?!?
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Mundabor has a piece just put up saying that Cardinal Pell has made statements that should make Pope Francis know he’s been outed. Good old Pell. He’s making up for that disaster of a ‘debate’ with that snake Richard Dawkins.
Dear Louie,
Your last line really hit home in light of this latest news of what one Romanan Bishop has just done to the SSPX. (Our Hearts and prayers go out to all)
… who in spite of knowing precisely where the Lord can be found, refuse to alleviate the sorrow of those who seek Him….
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From Bishop Semerar-Popes Advisor
From the Albano Chancery, October 14, 2014, NOTIFICATION TO PASTORS [PARISH PRIESTS] ON THE “SOCIETY OF SAINT PIUS X”
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“The Catholic faithful cannot participate at Mass, neither request and/or receive Sacraments from or in the Society. Acting otherwise would mean to break communion with the Catholic Church.”
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“Therefore, any Catholic faithful who requests and receives Sacraments in the Society of Saint Pius X, will place himself de facto in the condition of no longer being in communion with the Catholic Church. A readmission to the Catholic Church must be preceded by an adequate personal path of reconciliation, according to the ecclesiastical discipline established by the Bishop.”
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“It is sincerely saddening that such options [measures], particularly when in reference to the Christian Initiation of Children and Adolescents, be in constrast with the pastoral orientations of the Italian Church and, consequently, with the choices of the Diocese of Albano, where formative paths for the growth and maturation of the life of faith are favored.”
Read the full text:
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/10/pope-close-advisor-and-member-of.html#more
Typo (sorry) Bishop Semeraro
Don’t mean to sound crazy, but….
Scripture says there will be signs in the sun, moon and stars, and today we see this announcement (from spaceweatheer.com) (the site has photos)…
–AR2192 is the biggest sunspot in nearly 25 years, and it is still growing. The active region now covers 2750 millionths of the solar disk, an area equivalent to 33 planet Earths skinned and spread out flat. It is so large that sky watchers are seeing it with the naked eye when the sun is dimmed by low-hanging clouds.
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Big sunspots tend to produce strong flares, and AR2192 is no exception. It is crackling with magnetic activity. In the past three days alone it has unleashed 3 X-class flares and 8 M-flares. The most intense of these flares have caused HF radio blackouts and other communication disturbances on the dayside of Earth.
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Usually, strong flares are accompanied by massive CMEs–billion-ton clouds of electrified gas that billow away from the blast site, hit the earth and rattle our magnetic field. creating geomagnetic storms and Auroras. . So far, however, none of the eruptions from AR2192 has produced a major CME.
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But More eruptions are in the offing. NOAA forecasters estimate an 85% chance of M-class flares and a 55% chance of X-flares during the next 24 hours.
Indignus Famulus,
is that true and legit news?
That is huge.
Personally, I would “take it as a compliment”, meaning if the V:II entity refuses to be in communion with your organisation, it means you’re doing something right, and it may very well mean you have sound orthodox doctrine.
Does anyone truly believe whatever comes out of the Vatican is in any way normative anymore? An organisation which is not only fine, but also indirectly favoring ecumenist services, partecipation to NON CHRISTIAN religious events but forbids its adherents to frequent the SSPX, a Catholic organisation? It is madness.
So.. according to Francis it is fine and dandy to pray with Jews for the coming of the Messiah (Lord forgive us!) and light the menorah but somehow the SSPX results in excommunication and/or schism!
Since we’re talking about signs in the sun and 25 years ago, just for the record, in 1989, the History record of the SSPX says:
“The Society of St. Pius X starts a perpetual Mass in honor of the Immaculate and Sorrowful Heart of Mary, renewing daily its consecration to her. Perpetual Adoration is also begun and the Blessed Sacrament remains exposed at some house of the Society throughout the world every day for the faithful to pray for the following intentions:
1.The return of Rome and the bishops to the traditional doctrine of the Church.
2.The sanctification of priests and candidates for the priesthood.
3.The awakening of priestly and religious vocations.
In one year our 4 new bishops have ordained 34 new priests.
The Archbishop, being asked if he has any doubt, or if he regrets the step of 1988, answers:
“Absolutely not. Everything was truly providential and almost miraculous. I was pressured from many sides for a long time and I could have ordained bishops 3 or 4 years ago; it would even have been reasonable, but I believe that God wanted things to develop slowly so that we could show to Rome and to history that we have done all we could to finally obtain the authorization to have traditional bishops. The faithful will be more and more numerous and they will open their eyes to see finally what is the truth in this affair. They will understand that salvation is in the Catholic Church and not in the Conciliar Church that becomes more and more schismatic. I know that my name has been removed from the Pontifical Directory this year, but I hope that it has not disappeared from the Directory of our dear Lord, and this is what matters.”
Dear Berto,
It’s almost eerie how your questions here echo what the Archbishop said (below) when asked if he regretted his actions in consecrating 4 Bishops one year earlier.
p.s. Wickipedia records that 25 years ago, (as a result of the x- large solar flare one week earlier), on March 13, 1989 a severe geomagnetic storm struck Earth, with extremely intense auroras at the poles. The aurora could be seen as far south as Texas and Florida. As this occurred during the Cold War, an unknown number of people worried that a nuclear first-strike might be in progress. The burst cause the disruption of Free Europe into Russia. It was initially believed that the signals had been jammed by the Soviet government. As midnight came and went, a river of charged particles and electrons in the ionosphere flowed from west to east, inducing powerful electrical currents in the ground that surged into many natural nooks and crannies.”
[March 13th also happens to be the date of our last Papal election BTW]
Barbara, what you say is very interesting, and I’ve noticed it as well:
“Something confusing is that Pope Francis, every once in a while, actually speaks truth. But it’s always wrapped in error. It seems as if he is possessed.”
This reminds me of the high priest Caiaphas’ statement to the council of chief priests and Pharisees in John 11:50 about our Lord, not fully understanding the meaning of his own words, namely “…you do not understand that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation should not perish.”
May we permit ourselves to say that, like Caiaphas, Pope Francis is ‘possessed’, but in his case he is possessed by his august and awesome office, namely that of being the Pope, the Vicar of Christ. He cannot help but speak truth in an oracular fashion, albeit the truth often seems garbled in error.
It’s as though we as the flock are listening to his words with real bad radio reception, or almost like in a dream where one person in the dream is really representative of someone else in our lives.
Eureka! Notwithstanding the errors of the modernist popes, these insights may actually form the basis of arguments against the sedevacantists.
But then again, alas, mystery of mysteries, even the demons recognized who Christ was before being exorcised by Him. This is spiritual warfare.
Alarico,
you are right of course. Even demons MUST recognize the Sovereignty of God and obviously the name of Jesus Christ.
They are also known to mix truth with lies in order to better deceive.
You both are amazed that THE POPE utters something resembling orthodoxy from time to time. Do you realise how kafkian that sounds?
If a time traveler from the past, or someone just now returning to civilisation after 60 years, or simply regular joe mild christian were to hear you, he’d think you mental.
Dear Indignus:
Thank you for the link.
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Furthermore, this post appeared on the Eponymous Flower website: “SSPX With Bishop Fellay and Bishops Celebrate Immemorial Mass at Lourdes Shrine”
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Link here:http://eponymousflower.blogspot.com/2014/10/sspx-with-bishop-fellay-and-bishops.html
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EF:
“….the Society of Saint Pius X has celebrated Mass at the modernist St. Pius X, at the Lourdes Shrine in France. It’s a crowning even in the pilgrimage whose motto is, “To Our Lady in the Footsteps of St. Pius X.” Despite the large size of the church meant to accommodate throngs of pilgrims, it looks practically full. The building can accomodate 25,000 worshipers. The celebrant for this Christ the King Mass was Bishop Fellay with Bishops de Galaretta and Tisser de Mallerais in attendance, is part of a celebration for the centenary of St. Pius X.
.
Amazingly, they got permission to do this from the authority in charge of the site which must have been high level indeed. This is a signal event.”
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So on the one hand, the modernists threaten the Faithful who attend SSPX masses, while on the other hand, they allow them to offer masses at places like Lourdes and the Vatican.
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Not to mention Francis’s “BAN” on converting anyone to the one true Faith, and his musings about atheists going to heaven.
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Looks like the modernist’s have launched “Operation Diabolical Disorientation” against the SSPX. How else can you explain what is happening? 😉
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PS Notice the number of SSPX clerics who were present. Bishop Fellay at the end of the procession takes about 5 minutes to get to the alter. 🙂
Cardinal Pell praises Francis, the bishop of Rome… sort of. 🙂
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“Cardinal Pell: “…History has Seen 37 False or Antipopes”
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cd. Pell writes to the SP pilgramige:
“The church is not built on the rock of Peter’s faith,” he wrote, “but on Peter himself, despite his faults and failings.” “Pope Francis is the 266th pope and history has seen 37 false or antipopes,” he wrote.
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“The story of the popes is stranger than fiction,” the cardinal wrote, and today “we have one of the more unusual popes in history, enjoying almost unprecedented popularity. He is doing a marvellous job making the financial reforms,” he wrote.
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Cardinal Pell concluded his written remarks with a prayer: “I was taught as a child: May the Lord preserve the Holy Father, Pope Francis, and give him life. Keep him safe on earth and deliver him not up into the hands of his enemies.”
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A resounding vote of confidence….. you decide. 🙂
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PS And he hugs wheelchairs and kisses babies too. 😉
Link to above post: http://eponymousflower.blogspot.com/2014/10/cardinal-pell-history-has-seen-37-false.html
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37 Antipopes, ya say?
Mundabor hits the spot!
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“How To Destroy A Heretical Pope” in 4 Acts, by Mundabor. 😉
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Link: http://mundabor.wordpress.com/2014/10/27/how-to-destroy-a-hereticalpope/
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Mundabor writes:
.
Prelude.
“This is how politics works. If you do not understand these dynamics, I suggest you limit yourself to Mickey Mouse.”
.
Act I:
“Cardinal Pell today launched what, for Church standards, must be one of the most scathing attacks launched on a Pope in modern history.
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” Let us, then, read what the good man had to say about Francis. He was ill, so he sent a written address to the Summorum Pontificum fan waiting for him. I quote:
.
1. “Pope Francis is the 266th pope and history has seen 37 false or antipopes,”
.
2. “The story of the popes is stranger than fiction,” […] [and today] “we have one of the more unusual popes in history, enjoying almost unprecedented popularity. He is doing a marvellous job making the financial reforms,”
.
The first cannonade is terrifying. Talking of a very contested Pope, the Cardinal reminds the Traditionalist faithful that… they should not be so shellshocked, because we have lived all this many times.
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Act II
“This is not even “damning with faint praise”. This is shooting with the cannon of an M1 tank, and then saying to Francis: “don’t worry, Frankie boy. It’s merely a bit of faint praise…”
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ACT III
“What I think is happening is that as Francis keep positioning himself as the “good reformer”, Catholic Cardinals start positioning him as the “heretical Pope”. All, of course, in view of the 2015 synod, which will be a real “make or break” for Catholicism as we have known it up to now.”
.
Act IV
” Francis keeps spouting heretical drivel every day, and now his own cardinals start saying: “look, don’t listen to the old man, he is a disgrace that has recurred many times in Church History”. A dozen of orthodox Cardinals and Archbishops among the most prestigious can destroy this papacy, as it has not happened for now many centuries that Cardinals openly criticise a Pope in doctrinal matters. If Francis does not get this, then we are steering the biggest conflicts in many centuries, because I can’t imagine the Church remaining silent as an old lewd man walks and defecates all over Her.”
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Epilog:
“If Pell’s warning shot does not make Francis understand that his own very cardinals are ready to call him heretical, I do not know what will. One of his own close entourage has just fired a warning shot so near to the target, that there can be no doubt he has the target in his sights, and will keep him there. If Francis still has a brain at all, he will understand that the warning shots are now landing increasingly nearer to the hotel run by the faggot, and he should prepare himself to run for cover if he continues with his heretical folly.”
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Bravo! Bravisimo!
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Encore!
Barbara
It’s so VII and not necessary
Lionel:
Barbara Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7) says all need faith and baptism for salvation.This is pre Vatican Council II teaching.
Louie mentioned AG 7 in a Mic’d Up interview conducted by Micahel Voris but he did not mention that there are no exceptions mentioned in Vatican Council II to Ad Gentes 7. This is very important for Catholic Mission with the correct doctrine.
Barbara
I feel terribly sad to think that Pope Francis has gone astray from the perennial teachings of Holy Mother Church
Lionel:
Even the traditionalists have gone astray on doctrine. I have mentioned this in the forum.
I have been sending mail to the Bishop of Albano and the priests there. I have also been sending mail to the SSPX at Albano.
The bishop like the SSPX at Albano, and SSPX in genera,l use an irrational premise in the interpretation of Church documents including Vatican Council II. The result is Vatican Council II is a break with the past. This is welcomed by the bishop.He wants the SSPX to accept Vatican Council II with this irrationality.
1.The return of Rome and the bishops to the traditional doctrine of the Church.
Lionel:
How can they return to the traditional doctrine of the Church when the SSPX is making the same doctrinal error as Rome ?
They will understand that salvation is in the Catholic Church and not in the Conciliar Church
Lionel:
Both ‘Churches’ are making a subtle error in the interpretation of salvation doctrine.
Lionel, as far as I know 99.9999% of “Catholics” are making that error nowdays.
or 43 according to some.
According to the posters over there, Pell is a rotten modernist too, is that true?
Yes, Cardinal Pell is a modern Bishop, but a rotten Modernist he’s not. Yesterday the Vortex laid out a mini-history lesson wherein lies the difficulty. From let’s say 1950 to the present day Modernism has infiltrated Catholic education – universities, and more important, seminaries. Of course this began with William of Ockam and his ilk, bearing fruit in Luther, and on into our day.
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Cardinal Pell is a product of that education. I believe he has drawn back from the brink, thanks be to Our Dear Lord’s generous grace!
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That said, he also believes (see ‘debate’ with the slimy Dawkins) that the Holy Scriptures are not completely ‘true.’ This thanks again to his education flowing from Historical Biblical Criticism, thank you German Protestants! We need to pray for him, and other Bishops out there who are beginning to at least ‘see’ the brink.
I’m not quite sure he’s starting to redeem himself. As far as I understand the issue, he’s simply of the Ratzinger ilk, “conservative” modernists, who dislike Bergoglio because he’s excessively heretical even by their rotten standards.
I also fail to see how education can justify them in any way. It is absurd to think they were unable to access the deposit of faith, they had to choose to believe in the lies they were told, either for lazyness or political convenience.
We are not talking about illiterate paesants here, but learned doctors, often extremely well versed in theology.
Here’s a quote from Cardinal Ratzinger (his proper title at present) from Sandro Magister’s latest:
“In the letter, the pope emeritus indicates as the foundation for peace precisely “unconditional respect for the life of man, created according to the image of God and thus endowed with absolute dignity.” Because of which “the theme of peace and the theme of respect for human life are linked with faith in God the creator as the true guarantee of our dignity.”
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This is the very language that is so confusing: He talks about the life of man. Never in Church history have we be inundated with this kind of language. Go back as far as possible, and the talk is about God, and man’s relationship with Him – that is history in its true sense – our response to God.
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More modern talk: man’s absolute dignity (because he’s created in the image and likeness of God) Sounds good eh? But it’s insidious at the least. How do you tell a person who suffers from same sex attraction that his dignity is NOT in that attraction, but in his soul in the state of grace?
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How do you tell an adulterer that his dignity does not consist in his state of mortal sin?
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There is only ONE way to achieve peace. Every man must love God so much that he is HAPPY to obey His laws. And one of those laws is that we love each other. One flows from the other, in a ‘gotta have it’ way. The burden is light and the yolk sweet. This is peace.
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All this is so subtle!!!! We swallow this junk because it tastes so sweet. But we need to be on our guard. Heck, when we read anything written before say 1900 this language never appears. Aaaaarrrrrrggggggrrrrrrrrhhhh!!!!!!
Mundabor has spoken out this morning, using Rowan Atkinson’s talk, about free speech.
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To my mind fighting for free speech, because we must tolerate everything in order for us to be able to speak ‘Catholic,’ is wrong-headed.
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I hate to keep bringing up the past (ha ha), but, you know that Old Tradition we’re supposed to be upholding says exactly the opposite: speech is so powerful that it must be moderated. Just because we want the freedom to proclaim Christ is the King of ALL, should we allow others to take His Holy Name in vain?
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No. The whole idea of Authority is so buried that we can’t get people to understand that words are gifts, as is the ability to speak, and that we should not fight to the death to preserve freedom to say anything we darned well please.
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The Church has always understood this until the modern era. Remember the Index of Books? What was that all about if not the control of words? And that was GOOD! We here all know that tolerance means we don’t stone heretics in the streets. We allow them to live, we ‘tolerate’ them. But to actually stand up and say we must give them every freedom to spew their filth into our air, just so we may be able to very, very, very softly speak ‘our’ truth is sending more and more souls to Hell.
Dear Lionel,
Have you gotten any response at all? If so, what were they?
Or are you being ignored by all?
Are we in the “End Game” of Francis’s pontificate?
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After comments cd Pell and earlier Burke, this question needed to be asked.
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And now this:
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SSPX: Sights and sounds from Lourdes Pilgrimage! (Feast of Christ the King)
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Link: http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/sights-and-sounds-lourdes-pilgrimage-5324
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Now let’s backtrack to the scandalous new le affaire “Francis/Semeraro Letter” for a minute.
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Fr. Z has a link here: http://wdtprs.com/blog/2014/10/italian-bishop-forbids-people-to-receive-sacraments-from-sspx/
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Fr. Z writes:
“At L’Espresso I saw this, in Italian:
Pope Francis forbids Lefevbrite priests from saying Mass
The follows of the ultra traditionalist French bishop, already excommunicated, are now in Bergoglio’s crosshairs. Through one of his most faithful men he has forbidden them to celebrate Mass and administrate the sacraments. Whoever follows them risks excommunication.”
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So Fr. Z has laid the blame at Francis’s feet!
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I know, it’s a quote from a newspaper. But if Fr. Z cites it, he is giving it credence…and not to mention circulation. Yes? (Remember “faint praise” from Mundabors brilliant post?
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So what can this mean?
1) On the one hand he is telling one set of clerics to allow the SSPX to celebrate mass at places like the Vatican and Lourdes (?)
while
2) On the other hand he is telling his henchmen to publish misleading instructions that threaten the SSPX and the Catholic Faithful.
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And it is not subtle, or rather I should say it is as subtle as in South American revolution subtle…. which leads me to raise the following question:
+
Does Francis know what his “right” hand is doing, because we know he is obsessed with the “left” hand?
+
If I were to guess, what we could be dealing with here is complete and utter “insubordination”. Church clerics are disobeying Francis, and siding with the SSPX.
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Back to Fr. Z.:
“The notification was apparently published in no less than the official daily of the Italian Bishops Conference, Avvenire. It seems that he had received numerous requests about the celebration of sacraments by the SSPX. He wrote that “it isn’t an institution… of the Catholic Church”. (ed: Hell, Francis isn’t an institution of the Catholic Church either 😉 )
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After Fr Z stabs Francis in the back, he twists:
“The article mentions that the SSPX has 15,000 followers in Italy. Given the state of the Church in some places, that’s not nothing.”
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Note: The SSPX filled the 25,000 church in Lourdes, so we can see how delusional this figure of 15,000 for the entire Italy is.
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And then Fr. Z twists again by claiming that 15,000 is a lot due to situation of church in Italy. Ouch 🙂
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And Fr. Z leaves it off as follows:
“It also seems as if there is a lack of coordination or of vision on this topic, indeed, a lack of guidance.
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Some call it “lack of guidance’ other call is “insubordination”. Think about it, after 18 months of ruthless persecution of anything that smacks of Catholicism, can any cleric not know that Francis will not be happy if that cleric allows the SSPX to offer mass at the Vatican, or make a pilgrimage to Lourdes?
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Of course not.
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But whatever you call it, it appears as if we are approaching the End Game. 🙂
Dear Barbara,
-We share your frustration. But it’s not entirely accurate to say that “Never in Church history have we been inundated with this kind of language”-as recent history has been rife with it.
-As pro-lifers we’ve spent the last 45 years(even before Roe v Wade) trying to re-educate people from all walks of life, repeating those same facts so often have them etched on our brains: –God is the author of all human life; we are made in his image (endowed with special dignity); He alone has the right to end the life of an innocent person. Many good Catholic leaders (granted not nearly enough) spoke them too. Bishop Sheen once lectured on the world “approaching midnight” – predicting the general acceptance of killing the unborn, and it’s leading to the loss of respect for human life on every level; ending in a state of barbarianism, in which massacres would become commonplace. This is only half of the equation.
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And we get your main point, which makes up the other half, and explains why our leaders are now essentially addressing their talks on world Peace to terrorist organizations who are only interested in planning how best to capture and torture them before decapitation.
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Vatican II, with it’s ambiguous pastoral documents- like Nostra Aetate- and its modernist implementations for 50+ years, have now left our leaders backed into a corner where they aren’t “comfortable” (can’t risk) going beyond this general “language of life”.
-Why? Because they implicitly rejected the mandate of Christ and failed to “go teach and Baptize all nations”, replacing it with “human efforts” that built the indifferentist world-wide consensus that all Faiths are valid and equal, to the point where they would now get nothing but anger from their “ecumenical partners” (and internal co-horts in crime), were they to suddenly begin teaching what you’re referring to from the past:
-that Conversion to the Catholic Faith and the teachings of Christ, along with full recognition of Him as King of the entire Universe, is the only real solution to all the world’s problems, especially our current state of constant terror, a.k.a. “lack of Peace” .
– that God is our “Father” must include what Jesus taught about being one with him and the Holy Spirit;
– and that “no one comes to the Father but through Me”, means ALL need to come to believe in Jesus to have access to the Father and end up in Heaven.
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“But “..their partners would legitimately cry, “You said…”we (and the Moslems and Jews) pray to the same God.” “How can you now say that Jesus is God, and His teachings are the answer, when He didn’t teach or practice what Mohammed did (including forced conversion or death); but warned about the loss of ETERNAL life without VOLUNTARY, FREE-WILL- conversion and salvation through HIS Church?
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Our earthly parents had a pet-phrase for this: “hoist on their own pitard”
Thank God our Heavenly parents have assured us of Triumph and Victory, and that Jesus remains with His Church till the end of time.
We don’t mean to be intrusive here, but we’re wondering what our SSPX poster-friends are thinking about this latest threat of ex-communication of anyone attending SSPX Liturgies or receiving the Sacraments from SSPX priests. ..
When we first started asking questions about these matters-in total ignorance- it was explained to us that the Church was okay with people attending and that the rift was just an “irregularity” which didn’t affect the Sacraments.
Obviously that idea is not shared by the Vatican officially at least. So now what? Do you declare these decrees invalid?
-Please know we’re not taunting anyone with these facts. We prayed the Rosary last night with all of you as our special intention, and feel anguished about it all.
-We’ve also noticed the mixed signals coming from the top– postings of “authorized ” SSPX Masses at St. Peter’s and Holy Shrines, but will these now be stopped? Or is this another battle from within like the Synod?
-We realize no one has all the answers to these questions, but feel free to jump in with a thought or two about it. Did anyone see this coming?
Dear Indignus:
Might as well jump in and answer your question regarding the SSPX.
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Being in my position, with two small children in catechism at a SSPX chapel, I come at the issue from a practical perspective. I do not trust modernists to instruct my children. A la Michael Matt. Therefore, I have opted for the doctrinal certainty option. I attend N.O. liturgical services when I am forced to. For example, I was at a funeral today in a N.O. service, with the notorious Eucharistic Prayer II…. the one written by a couple clerics late one night on the back of an envelope in a Roman trattoria to meet the editorial deadline the next morning. B/t/w still chuckling!
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Furthermore, since confusion reigns within the N.O. sect, I will stick with the Magisterium (Magisterium sifter if you prefer) and the Faith that was passed on from generation to generation, because I know that this can not be incorrect.
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Besides, if a “great cardinal” of the Roman Catholic Church like cd. Pell suggests that we might be living in the reign of the 38th false or anti-pope (46th according to Bert… with who I agree on this one), hey “who am I to judge?”.
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I would also go one step further. I think that this is the ONLY rational and logical position that can be maintained during times like this. I think that doctrinal certainty is the only viable solution.
No response from the Bishop of Albano’s Office and no response from the District Superior Albano’s office.
However I have been in contact with the priests from Albano.
Yes .What can be done about it?
The bishop of Albano wants the SSPX to accept Vatican Council II with this error.
The SSPX instead does not state that Vatican Council II can be interpreted without the error.Neither is Louie , Vennari and Ferrara wanting to admit this in public.
Then there are priests who offer the Novus Ordo Mass who know what I am saying but do not want to affirm extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
If the SSPX in some way makes it known that Vatican Council II can be accepted without the premise, they would be saying that Vatican Council II indicates all need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation and there are no exceptions. This means according to Vatican Council II Jews and Muslims need ‘faith and baptism’ for salvation.
The Bishop of Albano will not like this.But then at least he cannot say that the SSPX has to accept Vatican Council II(with the premise).
I don’t know what could be done about it.
Everytime I try to bring the subject up I almost always get accused of heresy and/or “Feeneyism”.
@IF: This shouldn’t be that complicated. The Pope in my estimation has evidenced publicly that he objectively has either or both of fallen into heresy or deviated from the faith. This applies to many of the Bishops and Cardinals as well. As soon as they objectively and publicly deviate from the faith or fall into heresy we no longer have to obey them. I neither seek to remove such prelates from office, nor judge their immortal souls. I merely decline to obey them. The SSPX is in the same position as I am. If Rome wants my obedience they should start elevating prelates who hold the faith whole and inviolate.
Exactly Cyprian,
the “judge one’s soul” is a blatant false argument from the N.O. who got truly out of hand.. I don’t know they dynamic of its inception and spread, but I imagine it was similar to the dreaded “lack of charity” and “Pharisee” memes, for lack of a better word.
Well said, Cyprian.
I’m short on time, but feel the need to point out for the benefit of the forum that the doctrinal errors lie with Lionel. And, Lionel, no offense, but you’re really proving to be a one-trick pony here.
Perhaps because it is Feeneyism?
No. What is commonly defined as “Feeneyism” and what we are talking about here are two different things.
But what do you know, you completely embrace BOD,I.I., BOB as real, tangible, dogmatic means of Salvation and think they are de fide.
And no, the following:
Can. 4. If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire for them through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema (On the Sacraments in General, Dz. 847, emphasis added).
found on the SSPX site is an INCORRECT (deliberately? I bet) translation from the latin, as you can easily ask to any Latin professor.
A Catholic Thinker
I’m short on time, but feel the need to point out for the benefit of the forum that the doctrinal errors lie with Lionel. And, Lionel, no offense, but you’re really proving to be a one-trick pony here
Lionel.
If the doctrinal error lies with Lionel then show him precisely what is the error.
I have mentioned precisely what is the doctrinal error being made by the traditionalists.
The traditionalists and Cardinal Kaspar say:
1.Lumen Gentium 16 is an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
2.They both imply that those who are saved in invincible ignorance (LG 16) and without the baptism of water, are visible to us on earth.They would have to be known and visible to be exceptions to the dogma.
This is irrational. It is a new doctrine and a non traditional interpretation.
The LG 16 text does not state that being saved in invincible ignorance is explicit and so is an exception to the salvation dogma. It has to be implied. And so it is implied wrongly by traditionalists and liberals.
The Council of Trent and Mystici Corporis does not mention that implicit desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are explicit and so are exceptions to Tardition. This has to be inferred. It is inferred wrongly by SSPX priests and bishops.
Vatican Council II no where says that there are explicit exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus but since it is assumed that the dead are visible in the present times, it is wrongly inferred by the communities of Fr.Leonard Feeney in the USA , that the Council contradicts Tradition.
Similar doctrinal errors can be pointed out with the Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257-1260 and the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.
Berto Slomovicci
I don’t know what could be done about it.
Everytime I try to bring the subject up I almost always get accused of heresy and/or “Feeneyism
Lionel:
I agree with you.
They mix up Feeneyism and Cushingism.
Feeneyism says that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are not explicit. So there is no salvation outside the Church.
Cushingism says that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are explicit. So there is salvation outside the Church.
Cushingism is heresy since it rejects the traditional interpretation of the dogma.
It alleges that the dead now saved in Heaven are visible on earth to be exceptions. This is irrational.
The result is fantasy theology based on non existing for us, baptism of desire etc. This is the ‘official’ heresy of the Letter of the Holy Office and it has been accepted by the SSPX and the magisterium.
It is a break with Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7), the Council of Forence, extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the Nicene Creed ( I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin and not three or more known baptisms).
A Catholic Thinker
Perhaps because it is Feeneyism?
Lionel:
Please give us your definition of Feeneyism.
Berto Slomovicci
No. What is commonly defined as “Feeneyism” and what we are talking about here are two different things.
Lionel:
Agreed!
Lionel,
pleople in the Traditionalist and N.O. commonly refer to “Feeneyism”, with one big swoop” as anything not recognising B.O.D., I.I. and B.O.B. as real, tangible, phenomena for which we are SURE moslem, jews, hinduist are saved, daily.
They think that (those exceptions being the rule and applying to all other religions) are a rule.
They have reduced EENS dogma to a mockery of its real meaning.