In the previous post I described the purpose of the Defensor Doctrinae Project; a collection of Pope Francis’ doctrinally questionable comments, dated and properly sourced.
Please feel free to comment and discuss the merits of the project, pro and con, below.
I can well imagine the neo-con papal excusers gushing with indignity over the very idea of such an effort. For my part, I would like nothing better than for this proposed database to remain empty, but we all know that this ship, with Pope Francis at the helm, has long since sailed.
And before some blithering nincompoop jumps in with the (insincere) question, “Why not start a collection of the wonderful things that he says, like his warnings against the wiles of the Devil? Huh, huh?”
Let’s be honest, when the pope preaches Catholic doctrine it aint exactly newsworthy. Trust me, I will applaud him when applause is due. In the mean time, I will continue to pray and fast for this pope while honoring his exalted office, even as I defend the doctrine of the faith against his more regrettable statements.
What about this Mr. Verrecchio?
Pope Francis at Lampedusa, July 8th 2013:
“I also think with affection of those Muslim immigrants who this evening begin the fast of Ramadan, which I trust will bear abundant spiritual fruit. The Church is at your side as you seek a more dignified life for yourselves and your families. To all of you: o’scià!”
http://www.romereports.com/palio/pope-francis-greets-muslims-for-the-start-of-ramadan-english-10488.html
“And before some blithering nincompoop jumps in with the (insincere) question, “Why not start a collection of the wonderful things that he says, like his warnings against the wiles of the Devil? Huh, huh?””
I’ve been collecting both, the Catholic and the, how shall I put it, the puzzling utterances, for some time now.
Don’t know what that makes me – a nincompoop, or just an elderly Boy Scout. “be prepared “, remember!
This project is necessary. I cannot see any “con” that would outweigh this project’s necessity. It is necessary because the project is an opportunity to hone thought and gain clarity on the teaching of the Church in the face of sentimental ambiguities and the emotional bursts of enthusiasm from both the left-wing media, but more importantly, the so-called right-wing Catholics who must shoehorn orthodoxy into everything that Pope Francis says.
Without a project like this, it will be very easy to be swept away into the current of hysteria about this Pope. Defensor Doctrina has the potential of becoming a very important project and a rallying point for authentic Catholicism.
I am very interested in this project and believe it will be extremely helpful.
As we approach the upcoming special Synod next fall having to do with marriage and the horrifying possibility that changes may be pushed in the area of communion for the divorced AND remarried I may try to focus on this area and contribute things I find related to this topic.
With input from a kind Latinist, “Defensor Doctrina” has been corrected to “Defensor Doctrinae,” as “Doctrina” should be in the genitive case.
It pays to have intelligent readers, and I am grateful that there are so many here!
I wonder when the neo-con establishment bloggers will begin with, ‘Louie’s gone radtrad,’ ‘Louie’s a Protestant’ stuff over this project. If they haven’t started whining already. Honestly, I wish 99% of these people would just shut down. They all say the same junk and waste everybody’s time. That’s one thing I hate about the internet- anybody can use it.
It’s time for all this nonsense to end. Pope Benedict needs to get in front of a TV camera and say he resigned the papacy under duress. This nightmare can’t end to soon for me.
I think this project is wonderful. I would also be interested in learning more about the heresy of modernism and the history of this heresy in the church, as it is not something I was exposed to durin my one in a Catholic high school.
This project holds the current pope accountable to his own words. Thus it shifts the focus of the debate to where it really should be. Otherwise, the sincerity and motivations of those who criticize the current papacy are continually being questioned by those who believe that they must defend it. That kind of defense is no defense at all, of course, but it does mislead. This project should help clear things up.
It’s a needed resource (and Ferrara’s article in The Remnant is a great place to collect some real gems), but a word of advice: clarify that you are not collecting the statements in order to denounce or convict Pope Francis (since, if you infringe on his person, you will meet the wrath of his soft ultramontanist backers). Instead, present the statements as claims that no sober Catholic should bother defending. As my numerous online interactions about all this lately have shown me, there is a huge disarming effect for soft ultramontanists if you clarify that you are not holding the Pope’s words against him as a ‘heretic’, but are simply explaining why, even when the words are removed from their papal context, they don’t admit of a sound interpretation. Paint the walls with this proviso: “I’m not claiming that the Pope MEANT TO teach error with X statement, but I am saying that defending THE WORDS AS THEY STAND is to defend error; and no Catholic, least of all Pope Francis, would want us to defend error based on an unfortunate choice of words captured by the hostile media.” I know it sounds disingenuous, but we need to divert the controversy from the Pied-Piper cult of personality to the fundamental issue: the ideas being received and passed around by the words (of or not ‘of’ the Pope) are radically defective in the light of the Catholic Biblical Tradition. So, prescinding from who exactly said what and what exactly the Pope meant by X words, let’s discuss why such a statement is false according to Catholic truth. Despite all this, you can and should cite the reported words of Pope Francis; just spin your appraisal of them like, “Assuming the Pope actually had said X, and assuming the masses actually did receive the media-reported idea from X that ‘X’, let’s explore why THAT received idea would be wrong. Long live the Pope!”
Mr. Verrechio, I have noticed your increased resort to name-calling recently. It detracts from your reputation and poisons the discussion. I’m afraid it also reflects a lack of charity/
Bishop Fellay on the double-speak of the Modernist Pope:
http://sspx.org/en/media/audio/fatima-sspxrome-pope-francis-2583
In another talk the good Bishop described Pope Benedict as giving the Church a parachute; while Pope Francis has cut the cords and put a rocket on the Church’s descent.
I think another project is needed, the contradictions-project. For example, the Pope said in his first homily:
“(…) When we do not profess Jesus Christ, the saying of Léon Bloy comes to mind: “Anyone who does not pray to the Lord prays to the devil.” When we do not profess Jesus Christ, we profess the worldliness of the devil, a demonic worldliness. (…)”
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/homilies/2013/documents/papa-francesco_20130314_omelia-cardinali_en.html
Back then I thought: “Deo gratias!. This is the end of the decades-long “interreligious dialogue” and the pampering of the atheists. Soon we will see real Catholic mission again. What a wonderful Pope we have.”
And then he sent two greetings to the muslims for the start and the end of Ramadan.
“I also think with affection of those Muslim immigrants who this evening begin the fast of Ramadan, which I trust will bear abundant spiritual fruit. The Church is at your side as you seek a more dignified life for yourselves and your families. To all of you: o’scià!”
(Quote from romereports)
“(…) Regarding the education of Muslim and Christian youth, we have to bring up our young people to think and speak respectfully of other religions and their followers, and to avoid ridiculing or denigrating their convictions and practices. (…)”
Quote from the MESSAGE OF POPE FRANCIS TO MUSLIMS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD FOR THE END OF RAMADAN on the Vatican´s Website
Muslims do not pray to Jesus because in their Allah there is only one person (They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. Qur’an 5:72-77 Surah Al-Ma’idah) and their Jesus wasn´t “killed nor crucified “ (Qur’an 4:155-159 Surah An-Nisaa) and is not the son of Allah (Qur’an 19:35 Surah Maryam: It is not conceivable that God should have taken unto Himself a son: limitless is He in His glory!)
“
Some time later Pope Francis told the atheists who don´t pray at all that following their conscience is enough.
“(…) There is sin, even for those who have no faith, when conscience is not followed. Listening to and obeying conscience means deciding in the face of what is understood to be good or evil. It is on the basis of this choice that the goodness or evil of our actions is determined.(…)” (Quote from the Scalfari interview on the Vatican´s website)
So, do the muslims and atheists do not pray to the devil? Are these two exceptions to the rule? That they both do not pray to Jesus is absolutely certain.
Ars Orandi has an interesting article on exactly this topic — the fact that Pope Francis alternates between heterodox and orthodox in his statements.
What we are dealing with is Immanentism.
Fr. Ripperger identifies it as the “primary viral agent agent assaulting the health of the Mystical Body” in his book, “The Binding Force of Tradition”
As also pointed to in the Ars Orandi article, Pope St. Pius X identified Immanentism as a key component of modernists in Pascendi dominici gregis
As
awww jeeze, Clare NJ is back…she can’t do anything but carp about you, but she sure keeps coming back….and coming back….and coming back….like a bad case of_______________ (fill in the blank).
I would just like to add a comment so that people do not get too crazy about the problems in the Church, and specifically with those that seem to be developing with the Papacy of Pope Francis:
We are certainly in interesting times, and there will be, without a doubt, many trials and even persecutions. But, God put us here for a reason, and we may have the grace of seeing His Almighty Hand protecting the Church, as He has promised us. Pope Francis may need a bit of seasoning in his job, it is a big one after all, and these projects will assist him to adapt, if he and we are of goodwill. So don’t stop praying for him.
On the other hand, Christ promised that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, and it is infallibly defined that the deposit of faith will not contain errors. So, in the sense of millenia, this is just a storm that will pass. Whether we need umbrellas or sand bags, only the Lord knows. But we defintely should not give up, and just let the storm sweep us away.
As always, we must keep the faith. And keeping it, we might see miracles.
Paul
they were sad and complaining. “And the more they complained, the more they were closed in on themselves: They did not have a horizon before them, only a wall,” the Pope explained, according to Vatican Radio.
Pope F April homily re On the road to Emmaus: The disciples … were sad and complaining. “And the more they complained, the more they were closed in on themselves: They did not have a horizon before them, only a wall,” the Pope explained, according to Vatican Radio. (Luke 24:15 says they talked and reasoned). “And they stewed, so to speak, their lives in the juice of their complaints and kept going on and on and on with the complaining,” the Pope said. “I think that many times when difficult things happen, including when we are visited by the cross, we run the risk of closing ourselves off in complaints.”
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2013/04/04/complaining-too-often-can-distance-us-from-jesus-warns-pope-francis/
just sayin.
sorry for the messy copy.
Our Lord encourages to keep on pounding on the door of the judge with our complaints.
This project is an excellent idea and actually shows that many Catholics take the Pope and Magisterium seriously. Especially a pope has a profound responsibility not to confuse the faithful. But this pope tends strongly to also confuse the non-faithful. There is something almost dishonest in his double talking. Even informed Protestants, who at first applauded his “humble, Protestant” look in vestments etc., are now horrified about his post-modern, vague, ambiguous and messy verbal style.
Could he ever read the results of this project it might even help Francis himself to see before his own eyes the incongruous and scattered, misleading manner in which he talks and sometimes even preaches.
Yes a compendium of the present popes foolish and borderline hysterical comments/statements is in order.
Great Idea.
Sorry for not being original, but this piece of what passes for Catholic doctrine these days: Mary suffers in Heaven and lets everyone in when Peter is not looking.
http://clayandspittle.wordpress.com/2013/08/16/please-dont-let-this-be-true/
Assessor for General Affairs of the Secretariat of State, Peter Brian Wells,
explains on which sources everybody can rely if he wants to know what the Pope has said. I think the last three sentences are really bizzarre:
“Even the upper echelons of the Vatican hierarchy have been aware for a while now that, since Francis rose to the papal throne, his river of words has been reaching people through all sorts of channels and without any intermediaries. So the Pope’s direct way of addressing his audience is ensuring that the media do not go into a spinning frenzy regarding the figure and actions of the Bishop of Rome.
The last man who clearly explained the liberating reach of Francis’ direct style of preaching was the Assessor for General Affairs of the Secretariat of State Peter Brian Wells. (…) Wells said that online access to the Pope’s homilies and speeches has freed individuals, families and communities from a reliance on media coverage that may be manipulative or biased.
(…)
In the first six months of his pontificate, Pope Francis seems to have dodged mediators with his daily morning sermons which are published on Vatican websites such as Vatican Radio, L’Osservatore Romano and http://www.news.va. Thanks to these websites everyone can read about and listen to what the Pope has said, done and written, starting with his morning homilies in St. Martha’s House. So “you can make your own conclusions, because his words are often very different than the way they are presented by certain media outlets,” Wells stated. Thanks to this direct public access to what the Pope has said “people no longer have to go through filters to receive what the pope says,” Wells pointed out.
(…)
Those who benefit most from the unfiltered and non-stop access to the Pope’s words are the “holy People of God” as Francis calls them. Not those who form part of that Church which Benedict XVI called self-centred, who waste their time with intra-ecclesial controversies. But the individual and myriads of a faithful and “hypo-faithful” who go to mass (not regularly necessarily), fill shrines and perform bodily and spiritual gestures mercy without shouting about it. The sensus fidei of these faithful – however weak it may be – can immediately relate to Pope Francis’ words and gestures.
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/francesco-francisco-francis-28830/
Assessor for General Affairs of the Secretariat of State, Peter Brian Wells
explains in “Francis unfiltered” on which sources everybody can rely if he wants to know what the Pope has said. I think the last three sentences are really bizzarre:
Even the upper echelons of the Vatican hierarchy have been aware for a while now that, since Francis rose to the papal throne, his river of words has been reaching people through all sorts of channels and without any intermediaries. So the Pope’s direct way of addressing his audience is ensuring that the media do not go into a spinning frenzy regarding the figure and actions of the Bishop of Rome.
The last man who clearly explained the liberating reach of Francis’ direct style of preaching was the Assessor for General Affairs of the Secretariat of State Peter Brian Wells. (…) Wells said that online access to the Pope’s homilies and speeches has freed individuals, families and communities from a reliance on media coverage that may be manipulative or biased.
(…)
In the first six months of his pontificate, Pope Francis seems to have dodged mediators with his daily morning sermons which are published on Vatican websites such as Vatican Radio, L’Osservatore Romano and news.va. Thanks to these websites everyone can read about and listen to what the Pope has said, done and written, starting with his morning homilies in St. Martha’s House. So “you can make your own conclusions, because his words are often very different than the way they are presented by certain media outlets,” Wells stated. Thanks to this direct public access to what the Pope has said “people no longer have to go through filters to receive what the pope says,” Wells pointed out.
(…)
Those who benefit most from the unfiltered and non-stop access to the Pope’s words are the “holy People of God” as Francis calls them. Not those who form part of that Church which Benedict XVI called self-centred, who waste their time with intra-ecclesial controversies. But the individual and myriads of a faithful and “hypo-faithful” who go to mass (not regularly necessarily), fill shrines and perform bodily and spiritual gestures mercy without shouting about it. The sensus fidei of these faithful – however weak it may be – can immediately relate to Pope Francis’ words and gestures.
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/francesco-francisco-francis-28830/
There are no “cons” to this project.
My wife and I attend a Traditional Latin Mass church here in London, England and even here there are some who insist on tying themselves in theological and rhetorical pretzels trying (deperately and understandably) to reconcile The Holy Father’s latest axe-stroke to the trunk of the tree of the magisterium as a supremely subtle and compassionate restating of rock-ribbed orthodoxy for the modern age.
Please, please press on and may Our Blessed Lord guide and protect you in your endeavours!
Of course this is a worthwhile and, unfortunately, necessary project. It almost seems as if the Pope takes delight in confusing the Faithful that he is supposed to be shepherding. Rather than allowing the Faithful to languish in their bewilderment, this project will provide instruction in the true teachings of the Catholic Faith. The current situation is truly sad but we have to deal with the shocking reality that the Pope is scandalizing us.
I don’t believe God “prefers” the “sinful heart.” The way he has worded that is wrong. With a little “mental gymnastics” I can figure out what he is trying to say but…*sigh*
The Pope concluded his homily by turning his reflections to the Saints, emphasizing that some of them say distrust of God is the ugliest sin, asking those present “how can we be wary of a God who is so close, so good, who prefers the sinful heart?”
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/sinners-are-closest-to-the-heart-of-god-pope-reflects/
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http://www.romereports.com/pg155059-pope-s-audience-don-t-fear-the-final-judgment-jesus-will-be-at-your-side-en
Glad I no longer have to fear my final judgment! Heck, I thought Jesus was going to be my Judge, but Pope Frank tells me that He will be at my side with all the angels and saints…what a relief! (I think someone better tell him that the Creed is mis-worded about this one, don’t ya think?)