Writing in his diocesan newspaper and prompted by God only knows what, Bishop Robert Morlino of the Diocese of Madison issued, “A word of caution about the Society of Saint Pius X.”
I will provide commentary on key excerpts, but please follow the link to read it in full.
The bishop begins:
The 50 years since the close of the Second Vatican Council have been tumultuous for the Church. Forces both inside and outside of the Church tried to distort and exploit the council and the post-conciliar liturgical reforms to create a new Church after their own image.
A new Church after their own image…
In other words, a Church that bears little resemblance to the Holy Catholic Church.
Indeed, this is true enough, but what Bishop Morlino leaves unsaid is that among those who have so exploited the Council (not only liturgically, but otherwise as well) is every pope who has reigned ever since; a point that will prove noteworthy later.
Making his way to the SSPX, Bishop Morlino continues:
Most of the faithful Catholics who saw this happening fought hard for a “reform of the reform.” Sadly, others decided that the only way forward was to work outside of — and sometimes against — the hierarchical Church and its structures. This was the choice made by the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX), a worldwide society of priests best known for its strong opposition to the post-conciliar reform of the Mass…
At this, two points must be made.
Number one, the decision “to work outside of the hierarchical Church” to which Bishop Morlino inadequately refers concerns the episcopal consecrations of 1988, the resulting excommunications of which have been lifted.
In other words, this matter is, in a sense, a non-issue save for the grave injustice of withholding formal jurisdiction from a priestly Society that is not excommunicated, not heretical, and of which he himself says, “it would be inaccurate to call it a schismatic group.”
The question that remains (and which Bishop Morlino dares not even attempt to answer) is this: Of exactly what crime is the SSPX guilty such that jurisdiction continues to be withheld?
I shall never tire of providing the answer until such time as this injustice is rectified:
The SSPX refuses to sign off on the proposition that “Vatican Council II is an integral part of the Tradition of the Church,” (the price of admission for so-called “full communion” set by Benedict XVI) for the simple reason that it most certainly is not.
This is the elephant in the room that Bishop Morlino, who enjoys Golden Boy status in the eyes of many marginally tradition-minded conservatives, must tiptoe around in order to preserve his own membership in the “full communion” club.
Secondly, while it may well be the case that the SSPX is “best known” by many “for its strong opposition to the post-conciliar reform of the Mass,” this is a gross mischaracterization of the actual situation.
The reality is far more complex, especially given the “liberation” of the (never abrogated) traditional rite in Summorum Pontificum.
In reality, the Society’s “opposition” also concerns the Council’s treatments of ecumenism, religious liberty, collegiality, and the relationship of the Church to non-Catholics.
“I want to be cautious and fair about the SSPX,” Bishop Morlino continued.
Well, I have some bad news for you, Excellency, even at this early point in your missive you have failed.
Continuing his “word of caution,” Bishop Morlino writes:
Many of their [SSPX] concerns are legitimate. Many of their values and aspirations are admirable, and their zeal is impressive. Their priests wish to serve the Lord and His people. The people who attend their chapels are fervent. We should always be cordial, respectful, and welcoming to them as brothers and sisters in Christ. Yet, their relationship with the Church is complex and developing … Having said that, all is not well with the SSPX, and my advice, my plea to the traditionally-minded faithful of the diocese is to have nothing to do with them.
Let’s unpack this jumbled mess of inconsistencies…
If indeed the Society’s relationship with the Church is complex (and it is, as I stated above), why does the bishop insist on treating it as if it is not?
It’s perplexing given that Bishop Morlino plainly acknowledges that many of the Society’s concerns are legitimate.
If this is what he sincerely believes, then he must also believe that those faithful in his care who share their concerns have legitimate motivation for being attracted to, and joining, the SSPX.
This being the case, his issuance of a generalized “word of caution” to “have nothing to do with” the Society, while deliberately avoiding the “legitimate” concerns shared specifically by those to whom he writes, is highly irresponsible, weak, and unbefitting a true father.
From here, Bishop Morlino plays the “jurisdiction” card as if it somehow magically trumps each and every one of the Society’s legitimate, and mysteriously unnamed, concerns:
The priests of the SSPX are validly ordained priests, but because for the most part they were ordained illicitly (i.e., by a bishop who had no jurisdiction over them and no permission to ordain), they are suspended ipso facto from the moment of their ordination (c. 1383); that is to say, even though they are ordained, they have no permission from the Church, which is necessary, to exercise priestly ministry.
This argument is less-than-sufficient and apparently the bishop knows it.
Of the SSPX priests, he makes it a point of saying that “for the most part they were ordained illicitly,” and he does so because he knows very well that among their ranks are men who joined them after they were ordained by bishops like himself. (In fact, it would come as no surprise if he personally ordained one or more of them.)
In these cases, the canon cited (c. 1383) doesn’t apply.
Moving on, Bishop Morlino ultimately gets to the heart of his plea:
If you take nothing else away from this letter, at least hear this — the SSPX’s marriages and absolutions are invalid because their priests lack the necessary faculties … do you want to take that kind of a risk with your marriage or even with your soul?
I hear ya, Excellency, and frankly, I am embarrassed for you. Is this really the best you can do as a spiritual father; to tell the members of your flock to hedge their bets?
Apparently, Bishop Morlino understands that the Society’s position does not truly lend itself to being dismissed out of hand; meriting at least superficial mention, saying:
The SSPX argues for the validity of their marriages and absolutions based on the canonical principle that the Church supplies the faculty in cases of doubt or common error. In certain rare and exceptional cases that might apply to their situation, especially with regard to confession, but for the most part their arguments are not persuasive.
He then very quickly absolves himself of the duty to actually address the concerns of his flock, the same that he acknowledges as being legitimate, by declaring:
This is not the place for a discourse on the technical points of canon law…
This is the stuff of neo-conservative stardom, folks. It’s like declaring a heartfelt desire to plant a garden while refusing to pick up a shovel.
As Bishop Morlino continues, it becomes rather clear (to those with eyes to see, at any rate) why he is unwilling to address those concerns directly; namely, he has nothing of substance to offer in response:
Part of their [SSPX] argument hinges on the faithful erroneously believing that the SSPX priests have the requisite faculty; well, if you were in error about that up until now, you are not in error anymore.
And why does the bishop think that this belief is erroneous (have a seat lest you fall down laughing):
The SSPX also makes the argument that they have permission because the Church is in a state of “emergency.” However, 1) the Legislator (the Pope) and the bishops with him don’t think there is a state of emergency, and 2) the sacraments offered by the SSPX are already widely available at legitimate parishes and chapels, i.e., no one is being denied the sacraments.
Yes, he really wrote this, so let’s humor him by looking at his… ahem… insights… a bit more closely.
1) Pope Francis the Disastrous and the likes of Cardinals Kasper, Maradiaga and Marx don’t think there’s an emergency in a Church the majority of members of which have little time for Holy Mass and support gay marriages, abortions, and adultery.
2) The sacraments are available in the very same parishes where the above mentioned apostates lost their faith.
Pretty convincing stuff, eh?
Bishop Morlino should have stuck with his “This is not the place…” declaration and left it at that. At least then his flock would have been left wondering if their bishop can be taken seriously; now they know he cannot.
Toward the end of his grossly inadequate “word of caution,” Bishop Morlino offered the only real gem to be found in the entire thing.
While speaking of frequent attendance at SSPX liturgies, he unwittingly provided an outstanding argument for avoiding the Novus Ordo Missae:
But as you attend more and more, it ceases to become something you tolerate and starts to become a mark of identity, even a badge of pride. You adopt a fixed posture of separation from the Church. That is a perilous position for any soul to be in.
Thank you, Excellency. I’ll keep this last point well in mind if ever I find myself tempted to visit one of those legitimate parishes or chapels of which you speak.
Very sad.
Very sad. As if those responsible for the emergency – the Great Apostasy – would say, “yes, we’ve created a state of emergency, so if you’re interested in saving your soul and helping to save others’ souls, don’t follow us, but rather attend the true Mass of the Ages, and get the sacraments and doctrine from priests who adhere to the unchangeable Faith and moral law”.
‘A word of caution’? So he’s a coward as well as a weasel. If he felt his sheep were in danger he would have forbidden them to attend any sacraments administered by the SSPX. But no. Caution. He has to be gentle and merciful and o so reasonable. Doesn’t want to really commit to save souls. Weasel.
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Let’s hope there is some feedback from his flock as in how this plays.
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The saving grace here is that when the real crunch comes the Society will be out of the reach of the wolves where they will be relatively safe.
This Bishop does ordinations for the FSSP. That fact makes this scandal worse. This is the kind of trash FSSP Priests tell the faithful regularly. The FSSP is wrong and so is this Bishop. Will the FSSP laymen & Priests now stand up and do what is right and defend Tradition and Catholics in the SSPX? or will they be silent? I think now of Mr. Michael Matt, Mr.Christopher Ferrara,Father Gregory Pendergraft FSSP,Father James Gordon FSSP,Father Chad Ripperger and all the other FSSP Priests who try to stand with Bishop Robert Morlino,VaticanII & newchurch & Catholicism & Tradition. So what is gonna be? Tradition or Vatican II & newchurch? To his credit Eric Gajewski stood up and did the right thing: http://tradcatknight.blogspot.com/2015/08/no-bishop-following-vatican-ii.html#more Our Lady of Fatima pray for us.
The part about no state of emergency recognized by the Pope and his bishops is precisely the point! So many cannot even identify the emergency anymore since they have been so poorly catechized. The house is on fire and people are getting burned (in more ways than one). I can only say that after years of confusion and almost despair, I finally obtained relief and understanding from good priests including and especially SSPX priests who taught the faith clearly and with charity so my conscience could finally be formed properly. Now things make sense. The faith makes sense. Reading Bishop Morlino’s letter reminded me of all the mental gymnastics I used to have to perform to get through Novus Ordo letters or homilies. Bravo, Louie!
Morlino writes: “well, if you were in error about that up until now, you are not in error anymore”.
Would he care to address these words to Jorge Bergoglio, who, on May 29th 2015, said the following to a group of gravely ill children (emphases added):
“I often think of Our Lady, when they handed down to her the dead body of her Son…. [I]nside, surely, with that wounded body lying in her arms, that body that suffered so before dying, inside surely she wanted to say to the Angel: ‘Liar! I was deceived.‘”.
Well done, Eric Gajewski!
“The priests of the SSPX are validly ordained priests, but because for the most part they were ordained illicitly (i.e., by a bishop who had no jurisdiction over them and no permission to ordain), they are suspended ipso facto from the moment of their ordination (c. 1383); that is to say, even though they are ordained, they have no permission from the Church, which is necessary, to exercise priestly ministry.”
If one can recognize that a simple act can “ipso facto” suspend all jurisdiction, then why can’t one see the same when one is “ipso facto” removed from office upon manifest heresy?
Since he holds the position that the pope remains pope until a formal decree from the Church, then why does he not presume an SSPX priest retains jurisdiction until a formal decree from the Church concerning that specific priest.
Am I expecting something here that I should not be?
I agree with much of what you say. The fssp is silent on many issues even though most of their priests mean well. For instance the fssp has said nothing negative about Pope Francis and the synod.
Because the suspension is declared publicly and the ‘manifest heresy’ is not actually ‘manifest’ because you need to have a either an explicit heretical act followed by a separation from the Church or a declaration by a competent judge of the heretic.
P^3
Barbara,
The elephant in the living room is:
1)Bishop Robert Morlino has the authority to give the SSPX Priests faculties.
2)Bishop Robert Morlino has the duty to address the doctrinal points the SSPX has raised. He should be teaching the truth and condemning the errors (If he can not he should be insisting Rome do it’s duty) and declare with authority.
3)Bishop Robert Morlino does give faculties to the FSSP and does ordinations for them. (So what does the FSSP believe about Vatican II and the new mass that the SSPX does not)
For my part, I wonder what prompted the topic of this letter? Are the pews of the SSPX chapels bulging with new people?
Looking at the Tridentine Masses in the diocese only two offer Masses on Sunday, this in a diocese of over 200k Catholics.
I wonder what would happen if the Bishop institgated a few permanent TLM parishes that were not bi-ritual.
P^3
Eric Gajewski of ‘Tradcat Knight’ fame, is hardly a stellar example of a rational Traditional Catholic.
For example: those holding the Faith are in the Church wilst those following Vatican II remain outside the Church
The implications of this over-simplification are numerous.
Implied in the statement that those who follow Vatican II are outside the Church is that V2 contradicts a Dogma (not just doctrine) of the Church.
Consequence A: Therefore those who ‘follow’ V2 are heretics and have lost the Faith.
Consequence B: As the Pope is obviously following V2, he is likewise a heretic and is outside the Church and … has lost the office of the Vicar of Christ.
Welcome to sedevacantism .. all because of a warped and narrow perspective on Church Doctrine.
So … Tradcat Knight is not a reliable source for Catholic Teachings and Perspective.
Caveat Emptor
P^3
pigg0214,
Am I expecting something here that I should not be? I think you are presuming that Bishop Robert Morlino 1)has the Faith 2)Secretly agrees with Trads ect. Judging by this talk of Bishop Robert Morlino on Religious Liberty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57AQEiNrOcg He does not clearly hold the whole truth about Religious Liberty like the SSPX does.
To his credit he at least gave this talk on Religious Liberty the problem is he tried to spin reality and Vatican II to fit his compromised position instead of fighting for the truth which is the game the neo cons & the pseudo trads (FSSP and the other approved groups) play.
Vatican II is a new religion. Vatican II contains masonic and marxist ideas that can not be reconciled with Tradition. Vatican II needs to be put into the trash. Catholics are going to have to suffer for the truth or join new church and risk their souls. Looks like Bishop Robert Morlino & the FSSP have chosen. God bless the SSPX!
canadian.tradical,
He banned you didn’t he lol. Eric Gajewski is not a sedevacantist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkoG3rznTwQ
Another day, another diabolically disorientating missive…
I have nothing against Bishop Morlino, Ive had dinner with him on multiple occasions. After reading this, I still have nothing against him. He is doing what HE thinks is best for HIS diocese. As a bishop he has increased vocations in the Diocese of Madison, increased usage of the TLM in parishes and in seminary, and even publicly exccomunicated heretics. He allowed the Society of Jesus Christ the Priests (not the Jesuits, a different order from Spain) into the Diocese. Notice he doesnt condemn the SSPX nor call them schismatic. He in fact defends their legitimate concerns, and prays for their full communion with the Church.
In recents years with the Neo-SSPX theory and the “Reform SSPX movement” how is a Catholic to know when he is in proper standing within the Church? The SSPX can’t keep using the trump card of a “state of emergency”. Yes there is chaos in the Church…but isnt the Church always in a state of emergency? The Church in almost all times has had heretics within (some times more out-spoken that others).
Now myself: I believe that the SSPX are on the right path. I think letters should be written to his excellency on this issue. We have to get a firm understanding where he as a Bishop is coming from. Keep in mind that he is working hard to reform a Diocese that is very liberal in nature.
St. Pius X, ora pro nobis
*{sigh}* I honestly don’t understand why Bishop Morlino took the time to issue this “word of caution” against the SSPX, something that he might have been willing to do back in 1988, but to do so now, in 2015, seems rather extemporaneous. If he can’t publicly support the SSPX, then the most prudent thing would be to just ignore them and remain silent, not to mention that he would also be more charitable. To go out of his way now against them, when Rome herself is implicitly acknowledging the SSPX (i.e. recognized by the Archbishop of Buenos Aires as a “Catholic” association of Diocesan Right, yes, even if it’s only for government passports and visa permits, recognizing their sacramental absolutions in those sins which have an excommunication attached, the CDF appointing Superior General, Bishop Fellay (who officially exercises no legitimate episcopal ministry) as judge of first instance in clerical misbehavior, etc.). Much more charitable and reasonable is what Msgr. Julián Barrio Barrio, Archbishop of Santiago de Compostela (Spain) is doing: permitting the SSPX to celebrate Mass in churches/chapels during their youth pilgrimages to St. James, naturally allowing them to celebrate in the Cathedral, and willingly grating permission for one of his young priests, to be on sabbatical at the SSPX International Seminary at Écône (Switzerland). God only knows how long we yet have to endure this schizophrenic attitude being dispensed towards the SSPX…
To say the FSSP has said nothing on the synod is either ignorant or a lie. They have. From the pulpit to bulletins to whatever. So what if they don’t trash the Holy Father? How is that a prerequisite for priesthood? Their job is to make us holy not to trash the pope, which we will have to answer for as St Bellarmine writes in his word on the papacy that nobody has the authority to judge the Holy Father.
“Silent on many issues”? You must not go to one or hear them? Might want to change from ‘critical thinker’ to another name
gundam128,
No the Church isn’t the always in a state of emergency.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSvQXlMNjto Sorry but your take on this is wrong Bishop Morlino manifested he is an enemy of Tradition by his attack on Catholics in the SSPX he also manifested clearly where he stands. Bishop Morlino is under the standard of Satan.
onearmsteve,
The FSSP from it’s very start has been part of the problem. The weak Priests who betrayed the Archbishop and Tradition in 1988 divided the Traditional movement worldwide they pulled Traditional money and resources away from the real fight for the Faith.
The FSSP publicly compromised on doctrine and the mass to get their place in new church. Shame on them! Shame! They suffer from theological ostrich syndrome. They do not condemn the new mass. They do not condemn the errors of Vatican II. Many FSSP parishes have waved the white flag on Fatima.
The FSSP undermined Father Gruner and Our Lady’s work.
The FSSP is confusing the faithful by sending mixed messages to both the faithful and the authorities. The FSSP is one of the most dangerous groups in the Church.
Catholics should not give them a penny. Catholics should not attend their masses (THEY ARE PART NOVUS ORDO) I spent 6 years with the FSSP. They are a completely compromised bunch. Run a mile: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3oyQiCNVV8
HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE N.O.M.
Dear Piokolby,
“Vatican II needs to be put into the trash”
Yes, I agree 100%!!! If one goes over to the Remnant and watches the video post by Michael Matt from Thursday, August 6, 2015: “Pagan Gaia Goes to Mass (Vatican II & the New World Order)” in which a performer sings a pagan hymn to an earth goddess at a new mass, one will see it’s pretty disgusting. I heard the other day on the radio that human beings share 50% of their DNA with bananas, …which explains a lot actually!
Piokolby,
Banned? I don’t know it depends on what ‘resistance’ sites he moderates. My personal best for a ban on a ‘res’ site is 20 minutes.
I understand that Eric (as with most ‘resistors’) claims to not be a sedevacantist. But … I’m afraid that you missed the point.
I was pointing out the consequences of simply one assertion (a gross oversimplification) made on his website.
I didn’t even go into the doomsday predictions (planet x, geoengineering, False Flag Nuclear attacks, etc, etc, etc) which would further support the ‘caveat emptor’ when visiting his blog.
P^3
The Great Apostasy is unprecedented. Modernism is “the synthesis of all heresies”. And the apostates control the Holy See, most dioceses and seminaries and Catholic academic institutions, as well as other Church institutions. The vast majority of baptised have no access (through the normal immediate channels) to the true, unadulterated Deposit of Faith.
Dear Ox,
The quote you provide was very disturbing to me, as I think it was to you too.
To the current occupant of the Vatican I would ask: “All the movies like “Jesus of Nazareth” “The Passion” etc depict a distraught and hysterical Mary, but the problem is, Mr Bergoglio, is that there is no support whatsoever in Scripture or Tradition that Mary was distraught or hysterical or angry or doubting, so where did you come up with this idea? Placing doubt and confusion and anger in the heart of Mary actually says more toward your lack of faith in the Immaculate Conception it seems to me.”
Peace brother,
Michael Francis Poulin
“… I think you are presuming that Bishop Robert Morlino … has the Faith …”
Well that would be the Catholic approach barring explicit knowledge or God granting the ability to read souls.
“Vatican II is a new religion. Vatican II contains masonic and marxist ideas that can not be reconciled with Tradition. ”
Are you implying something beyond the ‘four points’? ( http://tradicat.blogspot.ca/2014/10/a-little-cultural-perspective-on_13.html )
“… Vatican II needs to be put into the trash. …”
Well that’s an interesting opinion, aside from the implications (which I shan’t go into right now) you do realize that the Old Bishop Williamson classified that opinion as “Moderate Sedevacantist”
There actually is doctrine in the Second Vatican Council that is worth keeping as it elevates doctrines of a lesser authority to a higher one. For example EENS was included as per the ++Cushing letter. Heck, I wouldn’t throw that away. When I presented EENS and BOD to a men’s meeting (including a Jesuit) you could have heard a pin drop when I started quoting V2 in line with Pope Pius IX. The look on their faces was absolutely priceless!!!
“… new church …”
What do you mean by this phrase? Again it is important to draw the correct distinctions because the Four Marks cannot not exist. They have to be present somewhere and surprise the Vicar of Christ is part of the ‘One’ Mark.
So, be careful about the words that are thrown about … otherwise they may have them read back to you in court … at the Last Judgement.
P^3
(Before reading Louie’s no-doubt-excellent-as-always-commentary..)
This is, of course, politics. Guys like Morlino have chosen a side, and they’re gonna fight for that side. After all, if Bishop Morlino, orthodox Catholic that he is, thought that the Society were in the right, the next question presented to his intellect is: Why aren’t you with them?
Why, indeed? And so he must believe that they are *not* in the right, and to do that, one must remain closed to the root causes of the crisis. Hear no evil, see no evil. Of course, it’s quite possible for such ignorance to be invincible, but for a guy as smart as Morlino, who’s been around as long as Morlino, my gut says “probably not”.
Surely anyone infected by that diabolical disorientation must be at least somewhat culpable?
A Catholic Thinker,
Bishop Morlino is not a orthodox Catholic and he does not agree with the SSPX listen to him in his own words: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57AQEiNrOcg
Yes, I realize he doesn’t agree with the Society regarding the deep issues. As for “orthodox”, you’re right, I might have qualified that; he’s orthodox in the neo-Catholic sense, meaning he would never fail to embrace every Catholic doctrine & dogma, but at the same time he is thoroughly imbibed with the errors of the council.
canadian.tradical,
“Well that would be the Catholic approach barring explicit knowledge or God granting the ability to read souls.”
That is false a Catholic does not have to read souls to know heresy. A Catholic would need this gift to know if a soul is guilty of the Mortal sin of heresy in other words heresy can be in the intellect but not in the will or it can be in both.
That is between God & a soul after death. Before death it is between a confessor and a soul. But when a man speaks error a Catholic may judge the words. A Catholic must be able to know false doctrine so he does not fall into it and lose his soul. Common sense.
Are you implying something beyond the ‘four points’? I reject the idea of the four points either one is a Catholic or a heretic.
Well that’s an interesting opinion, aside from the implications (which I shan’t go into right now) you do realize that the Old Bishop Williamson classified that opinion as “Moderate Sedevacantist”
Bishop Williamson tells people they may attend the new mass. That is wrong. Bishop Williamson by his own admission can be wrong and he intends to bind no one to his opinions. Say what you want about the Bishop he is a Catholic this is not the mind of a schismatic read this from last week:
http://stmarcelinitiative.com/authority-limping/
“… new church … ”What do you mean by this phrase?
Read the 1974 declaration of Archbishop Lefebvre for an answer.
I stand by the words that Vatican II is a new religion. Vatican II contains masonic and marxist ideas that can not be reconciled with Tradition. I would kneel before the Tabernacle and say these words and then beg God’s mercy on us. Google Father Hesse Youtube
canadian.tradical,
That is between you and Eric. False Flags are real and are documented in mainstream history. Geoengineering is also a reality that is manifestly provable. I have watched open hearings on geoengineering in both the UN and the United States Congress.
Planet x may or may not be real I honestly don’t know but would you be surprised if it were true? Our sins merit it and more.
To be fair to Eric many approved Catholic Prophecy speak of a Comet: https://www.scribd.com/doc/4956324/Catholic-Prophecy
mpoulin,
“I heard the other day on the radio that human beings share 50% of their DNA with bananas, …which explains a lot actually!”
Best line of the day. Thank you! 🙂
It should also be noted that Opus Dei is linked off the Diocese of Madison Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/opusdeiitalia?rf=103792386326838
Opus Dei often pops up in these bizarre attacks on Catholics in the SSPX. I think now of CMTV & Father Nicholson. What is it with Opus Dei? It should be noted that Bishop Robert Morlino’s attack on the SSPX was on Father Paul Nicholson’s Facebook page early on yesterday.
What relationship does Bishop Robert Morlino have with Opus Dei? I know that Bishop Robert Morlino was Jesuit trained. Given the dates of his education by the Jesuits this Bishop needs to watched closely. Opus Dei……… & the Jesuits in the 60’s & 70’s blah…..?
Bishop Robert Morlino offered a Mass in honor of Josemaría Opus Dei founder some years ago on 26th June which is the anniversary of Josemaría’s death in 1975. This took place June 26, 2007. It should be noted Josemaría Opus Dei founder wrote much of Gaudium et Spes one of the most problematic documents of Vatican II.
Google: Bishop Robert Morlino Opus Dei
piokolby,
“… False Flags are real and are documented in mainstream history. …” So where’s the proof that this isn’t just some overactive imagination. That they have happened before does not provide any basis for the alleged ‘theory’.
” … Geoengineering is also a reality that is manifestly provable. I have watched open hearings on geoengineering in both the UN and the United States Congress….”
That you had the stamina to watch the hearings is admirable, but hardly proof of the capability that he is alleging.
” … Planet x may or may not be real I honestly don’t know …”
:… To be fair to Eric many approved Catholic Prophecy speak of a Comet:…”
This is not about prophecy. This is a conspiracy theory that something is going to happen without proof.
Basically, conspiracy theories provide nothing but inactionable ‘speculation’ with no basis beyond the fear and imagination of the person spreading the ‘theory’.
P^3
“Writing in his diocesan newspaper and prompted by God only knows what, Bishop Robert Morlino of the Diocese of Madison issued, “A word of caution about the Society of Saint Pius X.”
Louie, the answer to your opening statement/question may be the most recent SSPX video release in their ongoing answers to FAQ. It is direct and bluntly to the point. It is understandable how a Conciliar Bishop would/could react to it. It speaks for itself. FSSP is compromised. If the October Sinod goes as projected, then, more than likely, the SSPX will be flooded with new attendees. The one thing Modernist Rome can not handle is the Truth.
http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/new-video-no-obligation-attend-new-mass-9818
We must sow the seed, not hoard it.
St Dominic
Dumb_Ox,
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I was incredibly shocked that Bergoglio, (AGAIN!), is uttering a blasphemy against Our Lady’s perpetual sinlessness:
“I often think of Our Lady, when they handed down to her the dead body of her Son…. [I]nside, surely, with that wounded body lying in her arms, that body that suffered so before dying, inside surely she wanted to say to the Angel: ‘Liar! I was deceived.”
This is like another thorn pierced into the sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Our Most Blessed Mother!
When was the last time Bergoglio opened the gospel of St Luke to the passage where Simeon predicts to Our Lady that a sword would pierce Her Heart? Does he think Our Lady thought Simeon was telling her some sort of a whopper, a bad joke?
So much for Francis being allegedly so devoted to Our Lady! Shame!!
We need to do reparation for offenses against Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart like those perpetrated by Bergoglio.
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To be honest I haven’t paid any attention whatsoever to the ramblings of Bergoglio for months (news about him will regularly appear on my yahoo homepage but I pay no attention) – he’s like a loose cannon, but whenever I get a reality check on the kinds of things he’s saying it’s truly shocking.
canadian.tradical,
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I’m very much afraid that “False flags” are as real as so many other documented facts of history…
The sinking of the “Maine” that was used as the excuse to start the Spanish-American war of 1898, the sinking of the Lusitania that was used as the pretext to get America involved in WWI, the burning of the Reichstag in 1933 to consolidate Hitler’s grip on power, indeed WWII started through a documented false flag through the alleged “attack” on a a german position by polish forces, the attack of Pearl Harbor that was the golden excuse for FDR to get America on board WWII, the “Gulf of Tonkin” incident that was used as the basis for increased American involvement in Vietnam, and more recently into the twenty first century – the downing of flight MH17 by (most likely) a Ukrainian jet as an excuse to place sanctions against Russia and isolate the country from its economic partners in western Europe.
In case you’re wondering, no, I’m not basing these documented facts through sources like Alex Jones (although he may have some valid points to say here and there, overall he says a lot of nonsense and don’t think he’s a reliable source, besides obviously holding some enmity towards the Catholic Church and the papacy), but historical sources.
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Some people are even openly and arrogantly suggesting a false flag against Iran might need to take place before the US can be pulled into a conflict with that nation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M84l19H68mk
I see that over at CMTV HQ this subject is creating quite a storm. The CM moderator there has gone into overdrive and is calling anyone that disagrees with the party line a Protestant, but some of the CM punters are fighting back. Good for them. Bravo!
“This Bishop does ordinations for the FSSP. That fact makes this scandal worse. This is the kind of trash FSSP Priests tell the faithful regularly. The FSSP is wrong and so is this Bishop. Will the FSSP laymen & Priests now stand up and do what is right and defend Tradition and Catholics in the SSPX?” A: Don’t hold your breath. In fact, Morlino’s support for the FSSP helps make some small amount of sense out of his statement. (That, and an obvious desire to avoid the Bishop Finn treatment .) The FSSP was founded on the concept that the episcopal ordinations of 1988 were schismatic. That is their ENTIRE raison d’etre. They and their allies, whether CMTV or Bishop Morlino or whoever, will NEVER fully acknowledge otherwise. The best you will ever see is the lip service that +Morlino gives to their non-schismatic status here. The SSPX could be granted full canonical status tomorrow and the FSSP line will still be that the SSPX was in schism, at least at that time. As you point out, +Morlino could grant faculties to SSPX priests just as easily as he has written this article, but that won’t happen thanks to his status as FSSP sponsor.
“Even, however, if we leave it to God and to Peter’s true successors to sit in judgment of these things, it is nonetheless certain that the Council was deflected from its purposes by a group of conspirators and that it is impossible for us to take any part in this conspiracy despite the fact that there may be many satisfactory declarations in Vatican II. The good texts have served as cover to get those texts which are snares, equivocal, and denuded of meaning, accepted and passed. We are left with only one solution: to abandon these dangerous examples and cling firmly to tradition, i .e., to the official Magisterium of the Church throughout 2,000 years. …Would not Cardinal Suenens be right in declaring that this Council has been the French Revolution of the Church!”
~ Archbishop Lefebvre, from “I Accuse the Council!”
Canadian trad,
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Where do the Vatican II documents affirm the dogma of “Extra Ecclesia Nula Salus”, by “Ecclesia” understanding of course EXCLUSIVELY the Catholic Church, which is what has always been understood since the affirmation of the dogmas?
Because I thought that, according to Vatican II ecclesiology, heretical sects are part of the “Church of Christ”, and hence one can obtain salvation through the same:
“This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church…”
Lumen Gentium, 8
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
The above clearly implying that heretical sects are indeed part of the amorphous “Church of Christ”, and from this I guess I can understand how Vatican II still “affirms” EENS, with the important caveat of course, that the Vatican II “Church” is not the Catholic Church, as per Pius XII’s “Mystici Corporis Christi”: The Church of Christ = The Catholic Church; Vatican II: The “Church” of Christ = Heretical sects + the Catholic Church.
We are living through THE great “apostasy” – rebellion – prophesied in sacred scripture, specifically 2 Thessalonians 2. It is incorrect to compare the present apostasy to other times of crisis in the Church; this epoch is truly unique in Church history, and I believe the climax of the apostasy will herald in the reign of the Anti-Christ for 3 1/2 years.
phlogiston,
Well said. I hope more souls get free of the FSSP.
An Archbishop allowing one of his priests to stay at the seminary in Econe? Wow! That must be one of the very few cases (perhaps the only one) an Archbishop has allowed that all these years since Lefebvre was “suspended”.
My gut feeling is this kind of “schizophrenic” attitude will go on until we get a shepherd who is willing to lay down his life for his sheep in the throne of St Peter, Padre!
majellan,
CMTV is really more and more showing itself to be a demonic non Catholic outfit. It is one thing to disagree it is another thing to behave the way say Father Paul Nicholson did when Father Gruner died. That was clearly 100% Grade A evil. These repeated attacks on the SSPX are demonic.
CMTV’s error like their Father the devil is the sin of Pride. It is Pride to think Catholics can go back into these new mass hell pit parishes and “fix” them. We are the sheep. We NEED Sheppard’s. We need Catholic Priests. We need Catholic sacraments. We need Catholic Dogma and doctrine along with Catholic morality to save our souls. This is not a game.
It is folly and pride to think that we can get these churchmen and the laymen they destroyed back to Catholicism by attending the new mass and being “Trad” CMTV is nuts if they think they can sit under modernists with their modernist mass and make them Catholic. No no no if CMTV ever was Catholic they will become modernists not the other way around. Modernism is serious business.
It is a supreme act of humility to attend a SSPX to save your soul. It is pride to attend the new mass or the FSSP masses and think “I can handle it” the sickness of liberalism and modernism won’t get me. Pure pride. Once you know the new mass is not Catholic and once you know the FSSP betrayed Our Lord & Tradition on doctrine you must put you butt where your brain and your mouth are and get away from them.
That “False Flags” have occurred is a historical fact.
That the city of Chicago is going to be subject to a False Flag nuclear attack is a fantasy.
P^3
I hadn’t thought of it like that before, but you are spot on about the humility required to admit that the new mass really is wrong. Humility is something I struggle with, so I feel a bit better now, knowing that there is at least one area where I can make some progress. Thanks
The twist is in the novel use of words. This is a Modernist trick. Use the same word as traditionally used, but have a novel meaning. One gets to be ‘orthodox’ while helping to destroy the faith of the man in the pew who cannot discern the truth.
You are right, Lynda that most of the baptized have no access to the true, unadulterated Deposit of Faith…but, how did you and I get here? We questioned, we searched, we sensed something was wrong, and we did something to find that truth.
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Now I realize that one boils the frog very slowly and the water takes a long time to boil…but every Catholic has a duty to guard the gift of Faith he was given. A DUTY – so he or she must always sift, always question, never just go along because “Father says.”
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This is part of our sorrow – that so many millions of Catholics do not guard the Faith. It is harder to do this than to just go along with what feels good…and you know, it’s not just the fault of bad shepherds – the sheep have some responsibility too.
Of course, Barbara. There is no conflict in the statements we have made. I simply did not venture to treat of personal culpability, by means of intent, recklessness, culpable negligence, etc. Most adults of normal reason ought to know good from evil, if they care to know. The fact is, the majority are happy to go along with the lies regarding Faith and morals because it permits them to pretend that they can do what constitutes a sin (by commission or omission) and yet refuse to acknowledge the sin.
When I was a young child, heretical charismatic-type, feel-good new Catholicism was everywhere, but I knew it was wrong, though I couldn’t articulate it well. And, of course, I often wondered was there something wrong with me, that so many adults in my life seemed to accept the new way of religion as unquestionable, and think me just contrary. I used to wonder how the Catholic religion seemed so new and different to what had gone before (which one got an incidental peak at through books, or films, etc.). There seemed no history, no link to the Early Church and Scriptures – no Tradition, and God forbid that reason and logic might be employed in recognising the truth. “How does that make you feel?” was a question I became very quickly nauseated by – especially coming from persons who couldn’t care less about me or my feelings!
False flags are used all the time, by government agencies, to control public opinion and provide “justification” for their nefarious agenda. They have increased technology to carry such out, but more people now have access to information that they would normally have successfully suppressed in the past. If it weren’t for people accessing factual information regarding the chemical weapons having been supplied by the Saudis to the rebels, Obama, etc. would probably have got away with convincing everyone that it was Assad that was responsible, and got to directly attack Assad’s forces at that time.
Gotcha…
I misunderstood you then. In that case, yes I agree.
BTW – I hope you don’t mind me asking, but what does the P^3 symbol you seem to end all your posts mean?
The Council seems to have been the point at which the majority of bishops, priests tacitly agreed to pretend that all that was being proposed by the agressive heretical powerful cabal was not in opposition to the Deposit of Faith and morals, all signs being otherwise. That was when it became necessary to ignore objective reality, reason, one’s conscience, and go along with the New Order. This pretence, this sickness and moral and cognitive dissonance has reigned supreme ever since – with those who dare to suggest the Emperor is actually naked being irrationally attacked and dismissed as nasty.
Exactly correct. But I have a feeling that the proportion of the population that actually cares (or knows about any of this) is still a depressingly small minority… People care more about “Cecil” the Lion these days than about a Christian fleeing persecution at the hands of Jihadis (aka “ISIS”).
In the case you cited (the false flag chemical attack attributed to Assad but in reality carried out by the “moderate” rebels) ultimately though it wasn’t the revelation that it was the “moderates” that had used the weapons that stopped the American/NATO attack dead in its tracks (since the truth NEVER EVER matters, as the MH17 case clearly proves), but the firm opposition by Putin through diplomacy.
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Ironically, it may very well have been the Russian bear that averted WWIII in September of 2013 (although I don’t think we’re “out of the woods” yet with the Ukraine situation as it is by any stretch of the imagination).
“That was when it became necessary to ignore objective reality, reason, one’s conscience, and go along with the New Order.”
I couldn’t agree more. All in the name of (false) “obedience”.
I remember reading a comment from a catholic convert a few years back on Rorate who commented something to the effect that we are dealing with a crisis of reason and logic besides the crisis of faith.
Barbara,
IMO – the answer to your question lies in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11 :
“…because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity.”
Do people (the bulk of the masses I’m referring here) care for the truth – the moral truth these days? Don’t they prefer to lie in a state of self-induced moral coma in order not to wake up and come to face to face with the realization of their sinful lifestyles? How else can one explain that over 90% of the youth are cohabitating without any apparent qualms of conscience?
How many of these Bishops and priests like Bishop Morlino or even Cardinal Burke agree with Father Z’s campaign to get Pope John Paul II declared a Doctor of the Church? I understand just the Assisi meetings to be an objective mortal sin against the First Commandment.
No problem ..
It’s my symbol for how I try to remain sane in this crisis.
P^3 = Prayer, Penance, Patience
I read the post from Fr. Z too, I thought he meant to be a joke, no? he was serious? Now I worry about myself. Fr. Z is a Protestant convert like I am. If he was not joking then so far I have not known any well known convert to Catholicism holds to the real tradition of the Church.
A possible fourth P…..Poetry
I PRAYED
I prayed to God for songs and laughter. He gave me tears instead.
I prayed for life in valleys green, full of harvest rich. He led me through deserts arid and heights where snow alone could feel at home.
I prayed for sun, lots of dancing, and sparkling rivers to sail upon. He gave me night, quite dark, starless, and thirst to guide me through its waste.
But now I know that I was foolish, for I have more than I prayed for.
I have the Son for bridegroom.
The music of His voice is a valley green, and river sparkling on which I sail. My soul is dancing, dancing with endless joy in the dark night He shares with me.
Luci Shaw
Danielpan
It really seems Fr. Z is serious. I’m thinking he wants Pope John Paul II to be declared a Doctor of the Church because of his teaching on marriage.
My mother was a convert, too, and I have to say she reminded me a lot of Fr. Z. She had the same kind of personality; informative, entertaining, very intelligent, she always kept her piety for the Pope, and she love St. Augustine. However, she always supported Archbishop Lefebvre. The big difference between my Mom and Fr. Z is that when my mother made judgements she took all the facts into consideration, she didn’t ignore nor try to rationalize away all the modernist bad things that the Popes did.
Attention all Catholics:
What a tangled web they weave. Remember when Ted Kennedy died and he was given a Catholic funeral fit for a Pope? Clearly this was one of the largest Catholic scandals in my life time. Ted Kennedy was a pro abortion he supported so many evils we do not need to name them.
Catholics were rightly outraged at the time. Do you know who wrote a letter in support of the funeral……you guessed it Bishop Morlino. And you know who blasted Bishop Morlino via video for the letter……you guessed it Michael Voris.
Fast forward to today. Bishop Morlino is attacking the SSPX and Michael Voris’s demonic outfit is feasting on the red meat from Bishop Morlino. So let me get this right Bishop Morlino…….SSPX bad………Ted Kennedy good & in “full communion” these men are unbelievable. The video of Voris can be seen here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8diIpTl2ANw
Textbook scandal was Mr Kennedy’s funeral extravaganza. What message was it giving to the Faithful, or potential Faithful, as to their moral lives and submission to Our Lord and Saviour? A person who committed suicide was not given the usual Catholic funeral rites – why?
It’s possibly a pre-emptive strike. With each passing week (if not day) some new absurdity issues from Rome. Those whose intellects are not completely darkened by concupiscence will, as time goes on, come to a growing awareness of the state of the Church and begin to walk things back in their minds to figure out where we went off the rails. The Novus Ordo Missa is a big part of that. Perhaps bishop Morlino doesn’t want people looking back past the institution of the New Mass all the way to Vatican II itself. Maybe he and fellow FSSP supporters hope that with enough mud thrown at the SSPX, they can lull awakening minds back to sleep with only part of the story, throwing them the “bone” of the TLM. Then maybe they hope that they can salvage their own positions via the FSSP. This is complete conjecture of course, but its possible.
How morally and mentally sick can our bishops get? Bishop Morlino defends Ted Kennedy’s funeral yet tells Catholics “HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ” the SSPX while Arch. Chaput boasts that “ALL (homos and lgbt’s) ARE WELCOME” to the World Meeting of Families. One obvious reason that Bishop Morlino and Chaput don’t recognize that the Church is in a “state of emergency”, like the SSPX does, is because they’re the ones that are causing it.
Wow. The butter-wouldn’t-melt UTTER HYPOCRISY of the Morlino’s of the New Order continues, unabaited.
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VII is full of idols. None more egregiously invoked, however, than the ‘god of New Order jurisdiction’. A god whose very altars stink of hatred of the Real Presence, of Catholic Doctrine and Dogma, of a hatred of One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic; and the aim of which is to smelt all the gold of Catholic Truth into a wretched pot of ‘loving’ alloyed indifference. So far its going like clappers.
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Morlino is part of a Conciliar structure that, against God and His Church, teaches an ecumenism which, in its application, renders the very idea of ‘jurisdiciton’ null and void. VII shares altars with the Lutherans, the Eastern Orthodox, the Anglicans, it gives up Catholic altars to all kinds of paganism, it makes pacts to not proselytise, it teaches that God is not (necessarily) a Holy Trinity by stating the the God of muslims and jews is actually ‘God’…etc. etc. And, it has promulgated a liturgy that denies the Ransom wrought in the Blood of Christ.
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“The SSPX refuses to sign off on the proposition that Vatican Council II is an integral part of the Tradition of the Church.” I reckon that the SSPX won’t sign this pact with the devil is possilby the only thing pricking the almost completely dead consciences of those empty-of-authority-squatters who live for the New Order at the expense of Christ’s exiled Church.
PS. I pray the SSPX don’t turn into a Little Red Riding Hood and get eaten up by the wolf.
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The post-VII Traditionalist is, for the most part, Little Red Riding Hood. “Grandma/the Wolf” is the Novus Ordo church, complete with liturgy, doctrines, canon law, catechism – all new and ‘improved’, and as well the New Order ‘priest’, made such by a new and improved formula so good it’s like, ‘I can’t believe it’s not Catholic, Catholic’. But Little Red Riding Hood is stupid. She is really stupid. “Granny, what big eyes you have, what big ears, what big teeth…” all the while seeing and hearing that this wolf is nothing like granny – the only ‘hermeneutic of continuity’ is the cottage, granny’s bed, and the night gown. But Little Red is determined to see it through to the point where the big bad wolf says, ‘all the better to eat to with, my Dear.’ And he eats her up. End of story.
In that day the wolf and the lamb will live together;
the leopard will lie down with the baby goat.
The calf and the yearling will be safe with the lion,
and a little child will lead them all.
Isaiah 11:6
Thanks for your reply! If that is the case I am quite shocked because he never had any good things to say about Vatican II. And JP II more than any popes implemented all the heresies of Vatican II. Is there any chance of Fr. Z not knowing all the scandals and sacrileges committed by JP II which he defended till his death? do you know Fr. Z’s stand on SSPX? I would stop reading his blog if he turns out to be another Voris.
“the ‘manifest heresy’ is not actually ‘manifest’ because you need to have a either an explicit heretical act followed by a separation from the Church or a declaration by a competent judge of the heretic.”
I kind of hold the same position as you. So would you say all the popes including Paul VI, after Vatican II are material heretics and not formal heretics? So as long as Francis stay put and not become a Baptist he can not be considered a formal heretic even he said he does not believe in the dogma of the Blessed Trinity?
EM – that day! I guess we all really really look to it (even if we go…’mirror, mirror on the wall, am i the sheepist/goatist of them all…)
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PS “it would be the most miserable condition of the Church, if she should be compelled to recognize a wolf, manifestly prowling, for a shepherd” (Bellarmine, On the Roman Pontiff, Bk. II, Ch. 30)
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Would that any of us had the prophetic skills of THAT DAY, whereby we might know who are the “sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left…”
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“And when the Son of man shall come in His majesty, and all the angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the seat of His majesty. And all nations shall be gathered together before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on His left. “
Sooooooo let me get this straight. I am endangering my immortal soul by receiving the Sacraments from priests who are faithful to the deposit of faith, Tradition, Magisterium, Scripture and thus Our Lord. Instead I have to expose myself to demonic, apostate, wolves who have lied, starved, abused and betrayed Our Lord because they are the ones in power now and have “jurisdiction.?”
If I recall, didn’t St. Athanasius tell his followers to the affect of “they might have the buildings but we have the faith?” Do we follow the visible, earthly “Church” that promotes heretics, perverts and evil men? Or do we follow the invisible Church that follows Our Lord and promotes His deposit of faith? Does it all come down to who is running the show in Rome? Even if it’s Lucifer himself?
The fear mongering this bishop uses is disgraceful. A true father would make sure his children were protected and fed. A true shepherd of Christ would send his children to the SSPX in a heart beat. A true follower of Christ would speak the truth regardless of the consequences. And the truth is that the SSPX is the heart of the Church, suffering persecution for the sake of the Truth, feeding the sheep, and fighting the fight. God bless the SSPX:+)
I’m sorry for my harsh comment about this bishop. I was angry and let that take over my head…here’s a good lesson:
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“…to never assume the worst in one’s neighbour, or to become distrustful, but rather to assume good faith in the doings of another as far as is possible, and to pardon him generously, both to oneself and to others..”
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This comes from Radical Catholic, quoted from a devotional manual published in Germany in the mid 1800s. How far I am from this ideal. But ideals (as we know) are to be worked towards, not held up as impossibilities.
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St. Francis de Sales and St. Alphonsus de Legouri both lived this maximum.
Amen!
Because the American Bishops (USCCB especially) are flat on their back little whores of the Democratic Party, which shovels millions of dollars into their coffers so they can veil their Marxist agenda as Christian Social programs. The bishops pant like little puppy dogs when the Democrat creeps pull the leash.,, and that’s why they suck up to scumbags like the Kennedy’s.
This is just nonsense.
This statement is complete nonsense: “The FSSP was founded on the concept that the episcopal ordinations of 1988 were schismatic. That is their ENTIRE raison d’être.”
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The raison d’être of the Fraternity of St. Peter was/is to offer the Mass of the Ages, and the other Sacraments, along with Traditional parish life after the changes made post-VII. They decided to remain with Peter, and were given permission to do that.
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The Society of Pius X decided they could not do that, so grouped themselves under a ‘private’ umbrella.
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To set one against the other is foolish. We have TWO treasures (and a few others) that we must love, pray for, and work for. This may be all we have left in the not too distant future.
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Who are you going to cling to when you have eliminated these wonderful apostolates with your completely unsubstantiated blather? Will Tradcat Knight be providing Mass and the Sacraments to his followers when all is black?
Yes. And that’s partly why Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix. She offered Jesus, as He offered Himself – with perfect obedience, perfect understanding and perfect docility. He was a lamb led to the slaughter and opened not His mouth, and She was the same – tears of human sorrow, but a heart full of love for the lamb, and The Father.
We may be forgetting how very difficult it would be to completely change one’s mind on this issue.
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How would neo-church say the words: “we have been wrong for 50 years. We simply must recognize that our Mass has been a failure and we must bring back the Mass of the Ages.”
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That would take a great deal of courage. Can’t we pray that Our Dear Lord will give this grace to priests and bishops?
Yes, Lynda, and IHSV, what we feel and know in our bones is simply Our Father in Heaven lavishing graces upon us.
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We will never understand why He withholds some graces from some souls, and puts others to trials, and some He makes instant Saints….all His Mysterious Plan for us.
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My understanding from reading Providence by Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange is that God knows who will accept a grace and who will not – outside of time – and He deals with us accordingly.
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How frightening to know that he has dealt with US in a manner that seems to point to our salvation. The thanksgivings we must say!!!
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Let’s pray that lack of charity, lack of mercy, lack of compassion and lack of praying for sinners doesn’t get US off the Holy Path.
In my opinion that’s why I back-tracked (above) in my knee-jerk criticism of Bishop Morlino. We must encourage the good, and pray for the grace he needs to be a completely holy bishop.
May I suggest that the NO Mass is an opportunity for those who say it and support it to humble themselves, not for us who don’t go.
Lest we forget – the whole secular world was in an uproar of disobedience, public sin, and “sex/drugs/rock&roll.” Could there have been a real desire to enfold all that ‘mess’ into the arms of Holy Mother Church?
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What went terribly wrong, of course, was that Satan had been influencing dozens of priests/theologians into apostasy and heresy for decades prior to the council – priests, bishops and cardinals may have been blind and deaf to their Tradition, and only had itchy ears for the new teaching of ‘reaching out.’
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I weep, as we all do, for the foolishness of these false shepherds but context is important too. Now before the sedes here jump off the roof, NOW it is plain for all to see a new approach, rather a return to the old approach, is desperately needed and we’re not seeing that happen – for THAT cowardice and pride I DO hold all priests and bishops responsible.
Don’t we forget this at times? That it will be HE who separates the sheep from the goats? And that it will be HE who reaps the harvest of both wheat and weeds?
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We can see actions and hear words but only He knows the temptations others must fight, or the knowledge they have, or the personal situations they are in. Isn’t that why we stay in the Barque of Peter? We guard our Faith because we wanted to be counted ‘a sheep’ and we pray that the goats will ask for forgiveness before the ‘separation.’
Seems like an excellent way to keep sane these days…
I’d add a touch of humour is also an excellent way to keep sane. 😉
———–
“Have much patience, because patience takes us to heaven.”
~ Jacinta of Fatima
I guess you are judge and determiner of who is in the right then? You are more catholic than all of these others too, I suppose? It is not an either/or situation. We cannot separate ourselves from Rome, even if it seems Rome is separating herself from us. Hunker down and try not to throw stones. Realize that God is in charge and at the proper time He will intervene. The pope cannot officially promulgate heresy or his life will be required of him. Yes, it is a dangerous game he is playing…
Dan,
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“JP2 more than any [other] pope implemented the heresies of Vatican II”. I’d agree with that…
Get this:
“We consider it our primary duty to be that of promoting, with prudent but encouraging action, the most exact fulfillment of the norms and directives of the Council. Above all we must favor the development of Conciliar attitudes. First one must be in harmony with the Council. One must put into effect what was started in its documents; and what was ‘implicit’ should be made explicit in the light of the experiments that followed and in the light of new and emerging circumstances.” (17 October 1978)
Yes, Fr Z is obviously very well aware of all the public scandals committed by JP2 practically right up to his death (Assisi I & II, kissing of the Quran, praising heretics and false religions, & etc ad nauseam).
Regarding Fr Z’s stance towards the SSPX, it literally only took me a few weeks a couple of years back reading through comments on Rorate (when they were open) and in his own blog too – & it ain’t a friendly one. I haven’t visited the site since, except once to confirm an astonishing statement from a commenter here recently regarding his desire to have pope John Paul II proclaimed a doctor of the Church ASAP – go figure.
Whenever I hear flagrant inconsistencies such as the one you cite, I have to ask myself: Whose side is Bp Morlino really on?
From Bp Morlino’s letter re. the Kennedy funeral in piokolby’s link above:
“…Sen Kennedy certainly did live out the gospel”
Lord have mercy…
FYI: I just found out that CMTV has banned me from posting due to my comments about the SSPX. I kept on pointing out the obvious i.e. that none of us are required to submit to a pontiff if they are asking us to follow error and go against Tradition.
It’s the first time in my life I’ve been banned from posting. I kinda feel good about being tossed for upholding truth:+) How sad that CMTV blocks the truth from their comboxes. It’s the only thing that sets us free, it’s Our Lord Himself. Not a good omen for the apostolate.
God bless~
I wonder if anyone can clarify for me on SSPX. I’ve watched the video clip of SSPX on the validity of SSPX sacraments. So am I understanding it right that that “technically” Rome is right that SSPX despite the lifting of ex communication the bishops and priests do not have the mandate of active ministry but on the ground of emergency situation due to the collapse of faith after Vatican II SSPX provides valid Sacraments allowed by the Canon Code? My thinking is didn’t St. Athanasius also rejected his ex communication and deemed it invalid and continued to ordain priests? So isn’t it not material if the ex communication is lifted? and what is there to negotiate if Rome does not clearly denounce Vatican II first?
“To set one against the other is foolish.” I agree Barbara. But please note that the attack came from the supporter of the FSSP against the SSPX. If anyone is setting one against the other, it is Bishop Morlino. I’m just pointing it out. The FSSP split from the SSPX because of the ordinations. That isn’t “complete nonsense.” It is historical fact. As for the elimination of “these wonderful apostolates,” I think that is far more likely to come as a result of action coming from Rome (a la, the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate) than by my “blather.” When that day comes, the SSPX will be all we have.
@ piokolby FSSP does not think vatican ii has actual errors or that the new Mass is illicit. The SSPX does and will not compromise. That is the difference.
FSSP does not think vatican ii has actual errors or that the new Mass is illicit. The SSPX does and will not compromise. That is the difference.
A comforting poem during these dark days…
Dark Night Of The Soul
St John Of the Cross
On a dark night,
Kindled in love with yearnings–oh, happy chance!–
I went forth without being observed,
My house being now at rest.
In darkness and secure,
By the secret ladder, disguised–oh, happy chance!–
In darkness and in concealment,
My house being now at rest.
In the happy night,
In secret, when none saw me,
Nor I beheld aught,
Without light or guide, save that which burned in my
heart.
This light guided me
More surely than the light of noonday
To the place where he (well I knew who!) was awaiting me–
A place where none appeared.
Oh, night that guided me,
Oh, night more lovely than the dawn,
Oh, night that joined Beloved with lover,
Lover transformed in the Beloved!
Upon my flowery breast,
Kept wholly for himself alone,
There he stayed sleeping, and I caressed him,
And the fanning of the cedars made a breeze.
The breeze blew from the turret
As I parted his locks;
With his gentle hand he wounded my neck
And caused all my senses to be suspended.
I remained, lost in oblivion;
My face I reclined on the Beloved.
All ceased and I abandoned myself,
Leaving my cares forgotten among the lilies.
Congratulations MMC and bless you for upholding the Truth.
I was banned from Mark Shea’s site and at first I was angry but now it’s a badge of honor.
Christ warned us that we would be thrown out of the sanctuaries, and all sorts of evil would be attributed to us for standing with Him. Woe to those who called evil good, and good evil.
The Lord bless you and keep you.
Mike Poulin
Danielpan,
To answer your questions I think we should start out with some definitions. What does it mean to say a sacrament is valid? What does it mean to say a sacrament is licit? Please watch this short video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDcB_zJ5jCU for these two definitions and some others that are needed to properly understand the crisis in the Church.
So isn’t it not material if the ex communication is lifted? The fact that the “excommunications” are lifted (which was a grave injustice so there never really was a excommunication) is not relevant to the question of the validly of the SSPX sacraments. In the big picture no it doesn’t matter. The SSPX is right on doctrine. In the Catholic Church truth trumps everything.
and what is there to negotiate if Rome does not clearly denounce Vatican II first?
Exactly. Vatican II, the new mass & sacraments, the new code of canon law, the new doctrine ect must go. Catholics may in no way except the reforms of Vatican II.
Rome needs to convert from Modernism back to Tradition aka Catholicism anything short of this would be a practical agreement (Comprise on doctrine) like what the FSSP and the other approved Latin Mass groups do. To do this would be a betrayal of Our Lord.
I do disagree with those who say that Bishop Fellay & other Catholics should not talk to the authorities at all. The Pope and authorities do have authority and should be respected & prayed for. Catholics have a duty to fight for the truth.
Also some suggested reading: Catechism of the Crisis in the Church by Fr. Matthias Gaudron which can be found at angelus press or on amazon.
Wait! Didn’t the story end with Little Red Riding Hood being rescued by a woodsman who cut open the wolf to let her out?
Canon 844 §2, of the new code states:
“Whenever necessity requires or genuine spiritual advantage suggests, and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is lawful for the faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose churches these sacraments are valid.”
Other sacraments are implicitly included if not explicitly excluded. This is a very accomodating canon. So even if the SSPX was officially in schism you could go there. And this includes any independent chapel as well.
I don’t know about all SSPX chapels but mine has seen tremendous growth in the last several months. We have even put Mass booklets designed specifically for visitors and those new to the Latin Mass in all pews. Many of those, by the way, are coming from the FSSP parish. It’s defense of the increasingly indefensible has made their parishioners wary…and willing the explore what might be their only remaining alternative after October.
On the issue of preemptive strike: don’t you find it amazing that so many are going mad the longer (what truly is) the crisis in the Church continues and intensifies and the closer we get to the Synod. I can only assume this lukewarm “trad” bishop is very worried about losing his job as he holds his finger to the wind AND is trying to stave off the migration from his NO and FSSP parishes once the synod tsunami hits. And since I believe he really has a trad heart, he’s got to rationalize away the cognitive dissonance which must be very stressful.
In my area there is widespread discussion of the synod providing a real tipping point at which the modernists of new church come out of the closet (sorry) and put into focus the gap between what they offer and their view of a dynamic dogma changeable with the times and what was the Church founded by Christ for hundreds of years before.
SSPX is growing, but that, frankly, isn’t new. And this is a preemptive strike by another bishop. My only disappointment is this will reinforce CMTV’s whacky crusade against SSPX and will make Fr. Z (that’s his diocese) even more guarded in his comments about traditional Catholicism and the People’s Republic of the Vatican. Maybe he’ll concentrate even more on ham radios and what he had to eat on the plane today.
Danielpan
I think Fr.Z shares Bishop Morlino’s ideas about the SSPX. I wouldn’t think he shares his thoughts about Ted Kennedy. (Somebody correct me if I’m wrong.)
Most of the people I’ve known who criticize the SSPX but otherwise are trying to be faithful Catholics act like they have scruples. There’s this terrible reality that the Popes knowingly or unknowingly are not being loyal towards Our Lord. Some souls have such a problem with this that they try every which way to sanitize all the Popes modernist words and acts, they white wash it all. That way they don’t have to make the very hard choice of resisting the Pope. I don’t think this is being loyal to Our Lord or to the Pope. Souls should resist his errors (based on the Tradition of the Church) out of love for the Pope’s soul and to lessen the effects of his errors.
Barbara,
You are simply wrong about the history of the FSSP. I met Father Bisig he was one of the Priests who betrayed Tradition and founded the FSSP. All of this is mainstream history.
The Priests that were with the Archbishop left him when he consecrated the four Bishops in 1988. Here is the decree of John Paul II called ECCLESIA DEI: http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei.html
This document created the FSSP and “excommunicated” the Archbishop. John Paul II definition of Tradition is completely modernist he admits Vatican II contains “new” doctrine in the document then he goes on to create the ECCLESIA DEI (FSSP). The FSSP accepts all this read the document. The FSSP was born from heresy and it leads to heresy.
While I do understand the impulse or wish to view the FSSP and the SSPX as basically same that is just a wish. The ECCLESIA DEI document says clearly to those who wanted to come under ECCLESIA DEI the Pope says:
” who may wish to remain united to the Successor Peter in the Catholic Church, while preserving their spiritual and liturgical traditions,” Take note the FSSP retains ” their spiritual and liturgical traditions” It says nothing about doctrine (they gave that up to get ECCLESIA DEI. Catholics can not do that.
The FSSP wears the badge of error. They publicly accept the new mass and Vatican II. The game they play is they say “I ignore Vatican II” and “You should not attend the new mass” (meaning just because of preference) The FSSP is compromised on doctrine publicly.
If you attend the FSSP mass stop. If you give them money stop. It is true that some of them have the Faith but that is subjective and dangerous. The FSSP is a danger to your faith and the Faith. Run a mile. The FSSP is not with “Peter” as you say they only appear to be.
We can’t accept the Vatican II reforms and ‘be with Peter” a Catholic must reject Vatican II wholesale and should not communion (worship) with those who are hold to Vatican II. They need to repent reject modernism and come back. The SSPX never left.
As to your comments about TradcatKnight you need to talk to him. I will address one comment you said “when all is black?”
All is black and it is getting blacker.
Munda Cor Meum,
The 1974 Declaration of Archbishop Lefebvre:
We hold fast, with all our heart and with all our soul, to Catholic Rome, Guardian of the Catholic faith and of the traditions necessary to preserve this faith, to Eternal Rome, Mistress of wisdom and truth.
We refuse, on the other hand, and have always refused to follow the Rome of neo-Modernist and neo-Protestant tendencies which were clearly evident in the Second Vatican Council and, after the Council, in all the reforms which issued from it.
All these reforms, indeed, have contributed and are still contributing to the destruction of the Church, to the ruin of the priesthood, to the abolition of the Sacrifice of the Mass and of the sacraments, to the disappearance of religious life, to a naturalist and Teilhardian teaching in universities, seminaries and catechectics; a teaching derived from Liberalism and Protestantism, many times condemned by the solemn Magisterium of the Church.
No authority, not even the highest in the hierarchy, can force us to abandon or diminish our Catholic faith, so clearly expressed and professed by the Church’s Magisterium for nineteen centuries.
“But though we,” says St. Paul, “or an angel from heaven preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema” (Gal. 1:8).
Is it not this that the Holy Father is repeating to us today? And if we can discern a certain contradiction in his words and deeds, as well as in those of the dicasteries, well we choose what was always taught and we turn a deaf ear to the novelties destroying the Church.
It is impossible to modify profoundly the lex orandi without modifying the lex credendi. To the Novus Ordo Missae correspond a new catechism, a new priesthood, new seminaries, a charismatic Pentecostal Church – all things opposed to orthodoxy and the perennial teaching of the Church.
This Reformation, born of Liberalism and Modernism, is poisoned through and through; it derives from heresy and ends in heresy, even if all its acts are not formally heretical. It is therefore impossible for any conscientious and faithful Catholic to espouse this Reformation or to submit to it in any way whatsoever.
The only attitude of faithfulness to the Church and Catholic doctrine, in view of our salvation, is a categorical refusal to accept this Reformation.
That is why, without any spirit of rebellion, bitterness or resentment, we pursue our work of forming priests, with the timeless Magisterium as our guide. We are persuaded that we can render no greater service to the Holy Catholic Church, to the Sovereign Pontiff and to posterity.
That is why we hold fast to all that has been believed and practiced in the faith, morals, liturgy, teaching of the catechism, formation of the priest and institution of the Church, by the Church of all time; to all these things as codified in those books which saw day before the Modernist influence of the Council. This we shall do until such time that the true light of Tradition dissipates the darkness obscuring the sky of Eternal Rome.
By doing this, with the grace of God and the help of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and that of St. Joseph and St. Pius X, we are assured of remaining faithful to the Roman Catholic Church and to all the successors of Peter, and of being the fideles dispensatores mysteriorum Domini Nostri Jesu Christi in Spiritu Sancto. Amen.
For audio of the 1974 Declaration of Archbishop Lefebvre : http://gloria.tv/media/rt9332KiHZS
MMC,
–
It would seem CMTV are scared out of their wits to let the truth be known out there on their site – it would let the genie out of the bottle for their premium subscribers and others who regularly visit their site, and they’re not gonna let that happen. So they have to keep the lid firmly screwed on tight so that no one will get a wiff of the truth.
God Bless for proclaiming the truth, you’re in good company here…
JMJ
Dan,
–
“what is there to negotiate if Rome does not clearly denounce Vatican II first?”
Good point – hmm, I guess that’s the one ton elephant in the room a lot of people seem not to notice.
Exactly! In these confusing times, we have to break it down and simplify things in order to keep our sanity. Avoid the Novus Ordo Missae and attend the TLM. It’s that simple! Stay educated in the true Faith and avoid anything contrary to it. Take care of the domestic church first. This is what we will be held accountable for.
NAGASAKI
BELLS
Vocations lost
Schools are closed
Liturgical dancers
Staged and posed.
Churches demolished
None catechized
But that Society of Priests
Must all be despised.
Their vocations are growing
They’ve schools for the souls
They’re ruining our plans
Our new church, our goals
And on top of it all
They love Church and the Pope
After all of our years
To tear down, destroy hope.
But like Nagasaki that
Fateful day —
We’ve dropped the A-bomb
Of our sins to obey,
Yet still from Church ashes
They rise like that bell
From Urakami Cathedral
The whole Faith they still tell
And that bell rings daily
And that bell of the “old” Mass
For all Catholic children
Every day in school class.
Their Churches are growing
There’s much catechizing
That there’s absolute Truth is
Antagonizing!
Their new Seminary
In the States, it does rise
And bells, more bells
Each one did baptize!
But St. Pius X Priests
Don’t follow, we advise…
These new “hidden Christians”
We’ll psychologically martyrize!
Thank you Mike and In Hoc Signo Vinces (Brigitte too:+)
“A badge of honor”. YUP, that’s what hit me too. Also the last beatitude where were are blessed when persecuted.
CMTV is a wee bit “off”. I pray they find their way again like in the old days (a few years back) when MV was headed toward Traditionalism i.e. truth. I’ve been one of their premium subscribers for years. There is a ton of good stuff on there (at least the from years ago) that I use as a resource. I chuckled to think that they banned a long time subscriber. If I could find another resource as good as theirs I would drop my subscription. But their “Where did the Bible come from” series as well as several of their old programs are just too bloody good to pass up. Any other comparable options i.e. video based Catholic catechesis/evangelization/apologetics would be great:+)
Yes, I LOVE Louie’s blog. It’s my trad home:+) God bless~
“Now you know well that the most deadly foes of the Catholic religion have always waged a fierce war, but without success, against this Chair [of St. Peter]; they are by no means ignorant of the fact that religion itself can never totter and fall while this Chair remains intact, the Chair which rests on the rock which the proud gates of hell cannot overthrow and in which there is the whole and perfect solidity of the Christian religion. Therefore, because of your special faith in the Church and special piety toward the same Chair of Peter, We exhort you to direct your constant efforts so that the faithful people of France may avoid the crafty deceptions and errors of these plotters and develop a more filial affection and obedience to this Apostolic See. Be vigilant in act and word, so that the faithful may grow in love for this Holy See, venerate it, and accept it with complete obedience; they should execute whatever the See itself teaches, determines, and decrees.”
(Pope Pius IX, Encyclical Inter Multiplices, n. 7)
“Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
(Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302)
“This is Our last lesson to you: receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church; the strong and effective instrument of salvation is none other than the Roman Pontificate.
(Pope Leo XIII, Allocution for the 25th Anniversary of his Election, Feb. 20, 1903; excerpted in Papal Teachings: The Church, n. 653)”
“Union with the Roman See of Peter is … always the public criterion of a Catholic …. “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.”
(Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Satis Cognitum, n. 13)
The Society of St. Pius X, whether in its “official” edition with Bps. Fellay, de Galaretta, and Tissier, or its “more-SSPX-than-the-SSPX” edition with Bp. Williamson, engenders nothing but confusion and half-baked theology that ultimately centers on one man and what he thought: Archbishop Lefebvre, a man of contradiction and constant vacillation. This is not Catholicism. If there is one man around whom everything must center in the Catholic Church, aside of course from our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ, the invisible Head of the Church, it is the Pope, the visible head of the church and Vicar of Christ. But this Abp. Lefebvre was not.
It is quite frightening to see how much Williamson’s theology resembles that of Vatican II and the Neo-Modernists. For example, he effectively takes a line of “reject[ing] nothing that is true and holy in [false] religions” (Vatican II,Declaration Nostra Aetate, n. 2) and tries to find “elements” of goodness and truth in the Novus Ordo worship service that can “impel” towards Catholicism (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium, n. 8) inasmuch as they “nourish your faith.” This is straight out of the Modernist playbook! The SSPX and resistance traditionalism as a whole take this line again and again with regard to their position on the Vatican II Church, which they claim is somehow both the Catholic Church and a false church at the same time, and the “Pope” is the Vicar of Christ and Vicar of Satan at the same time, depending on whether he sides with “Eternal Rome” or “Modernist Rome” at a given moment — as determined, of course, by the SSPX “authorities”.
This is insanity! This is most definitely not supported by traditional Catholic theology (which is why none is ever cited, or only selectively, and appeal is usually made to what Archbishop Lefebvre thought, as though his ideas were somehow the measuring rod of orthodoxy or constituted any sort of authority to which we must submit). But the criterion of being a true Catholic can never be,per se, what this or that bishop thinks, but only complete fidelity and adherence to the Holy See (inasmuch as it is validly occupied, obviously), which is the bulwark of the True Faith and the ultimate guarantor of Faith and morals:
http://www.cfnews.org/page88/files/d606a0cbb27730d8da0e1e1163f086b9-426.html
Hi Danielpan,
I have never come across an explicitly heretical statement by any of the post conciliar pontiffs. Keeping in mind that heresy is a denial of a de-fide teaching of the Church – not just a deviation for doctrine.
I have come across a lot of ambiguity and even some attempts to cover up some of these statements by the Vatican webmaster.
http://tradicat.blogspot.ca/2014/04/universal-salvation-and-pope-john-paul.html
P^3
Some of the points and my slides are at this link:
http://tradicat.blogspot.ca/2014/01/outside-church-there-is-no-salvation.html
P^3
Interesting thought PL.
That there are some who read Archbishop Lefebvre in isolation of the Teachings of the Church to their detriment is, I believe, a correct assessment.
However, the SSPX is abiding by principles that Archbishop Lefebvre followed in his response to the crisis of the Church. These principles are Catholic and that is why they go to Rome when Rome calls.
P^3
Thanks for the link!
Brigitte of Sweden,
Looks like good cop bad cop to me. Bishop Morlino=bad cop Bishop Athanasius Schneider= good cop. The elephant in the room is the SSPX has supplied jurisdiction Rome needs to give up modernism and Vatican II.
Bishop Morlino & Bishop Athanasius Schneider both offer the new mass this is the false left right paradigm acting in the Church Bishop Morlino=left Bishop Athanasius Schneider=right. It is all the devil. Rome needs to convert.
Dear canadian.tradical,
Archbishop Lefebvre was indeed a holy and great Catholic Bishop, loyal and true to orthodox Catholicism. That he followed Catholic principles is also true, but sadly, for one reason, or another he did not follow these principles to their logical conclusions.
If we may just stick to just one straight forward example – obedience and submission to the Pope. I threw a number of Papal quotes into the pot, simply to make a single point: a Catholic’s de fide obligation to submit to the Pope. I could have provided many more such quotes, but actually, one is enough. Nevertheless, lets just repeat two shorties:
“… Holy See, venerate it, and accept it with complete obedience; they should execute whatever the See itself teaches, determines, and decrees.
(Pope Pius IX, Encyclical Inter Multiplices, n. 7)
“… Union with the Roman See of Peter is … always the public criterion of a Catholic …. ”
(Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Satis Cognitum, n. 13)
Now there you have it in plain, simple, unambiguous English.
The Church is where Peter is. If you are not in union with the Pope, you are not a Catholic. This is Catholic doctrine in concrete. As Barbara would say, end of discussion. 🙂
Next step:
Bergoglio is Pope, or Bergoglio is not Pope. He is, or he isn’t. Partial pregnancy is truly not possible. Take your pick. I say he isn’t, so I happily ignore everything after the death of Pope Pius XII and I’m a happy chappie. My position is at least logical.
Now the SSPX says Jorge is the true Pope. Great! No problem, but then they must submit to him and obey him. That according to Catholic doctrine in concrete as above.
But they don’t. They Pope – sift, they pick and choose,on their own authority, when to obey and when to ignore. Is that Catholic? Is that in accordance with Catholic Tradition? Is that logic? Do they not absolutely contradict prior Magisterial teaching? Is the Church defectible? Can an authentic Magisterium teach error harmful to souls? Does St. Paul say if someone teaches a different doctrine, pick out the good bits and discard the bad bits, or does he say let the whole brew be anathema? Don’t numerous Saints, Popes and theologians tell us to have nothing to do with false teachings and heresies? Where is the logic in the SSPX position? As far as I can see there is no Catholicism in it. Perhaps it’s just because I’m dumb! Please note I’m not trying to open the whole debate again. I’m just making one little point. How can you call yourself Catholic and sift the teachings of not just one Pope, but a Council and all the conciliar Popes? The authority of the Pope comes from God Almighty Himself Who also protects His Vicar from teaching error, yet the SSPX take it upon themselves to sift that teaching? Do they realize what they are in fact doing? Where does this idea of partial obedience, partial truth, partial communion come from? The Church of Christ partially in the Catholic Church and partially outside it? If the Pope’s authority is insufficient to compel their obedience, if the Pope is not in their eyes sovereign, then how come the authority of Abp. Lefebvre, or Bp. Fellay suffices? I am dumb, because try as I may, I just don’t get it. Do they go to Rome when Rome calls? Do you really think they do?
piokilby, when you make statements like this:
–
“I met Father Bisig he was one of the Priests who betrayed Tradition and founded the FSSP,”
–
you destroy all credibility you may have had.
–
What are we supposed to take away from this opinion of YOURS? Father Bisig is still alive. Might I call him up him and let him know you are telling everyone on the world wide web that he is a betrayer of Tradition? Then you and he could have a little chat about it.
–
Can’t you see how dangerous it is to make blank statements like this? Your comments are full of them. You offer no corroboration, no witness, no specifics, no links.
–
This could be defamation, and it may be detraction. And no one in the FSSP can put up a defence.
–
Again, this type of comment makes everything you say suspect and irrelevant – in my opinion, of course.
I agree with you. Rome needs to convert.
Not the original. That was a later grafting on which completely destorys the moral of the original. There is no moral in the woodsman cutting them out of the wolf’s guts. How could there be? Be silly enough to get gobbled by the wolf, sweet, no worries.
Which is why is so important to hear the Voice of Our Lord on what is the Barque, and not ignore Him in favour of the voice of false captains.