It simply is not possible for me to fully articulate the range of emotions that are coursing through my veins at this very moment having just watched Michael Voris’ latest video (below).
Though it is necessary for me to offer some citations taken from the transcript as I embark on a feeble attempt to respond to what I’ve just witnessed, I urge you to watch the video for yourself as soon as you’re able.
Trust me, the quotations herein are no substitute for hearing the voice of my brother in Christ, our brother in Christ, Michael, and looking into his eyes as he lays bare his soul for the entire world to see.
According to Michael:
We have on very good authority from various sources that the New York archdiocese is collecting and preparing to quietly filter out details of my past life with the aim of publicly discrediting me, this apostolate and the work here.
Beating them to the punch and stealing their thunder, Michael states:
I have never made a secret that my life prior to my reversion was extremely sinful … I will now reveal that for most of my years in my thirties, confused about my own sexuality, I lived a life of live-in relationships with homosexual men. From the outside, I lived the lifestyle and contributed to scandal in addition to the sexual sins. On the inside, I was deeply conflicted about all of it. In a large portion of my twenties, I also had frequent sexual liaisons with both adult men and adult women.
My first reaction? Anger. Intense anger.
What kind of gutless, diabolical, scumbag would stoop so low as to unearth and make public the sins of another man; in particular, sins confessed? I suppose I’ve answered my own question already in the asking…
My next reaction? Sadness. Genuine sadness… Yea, we have some differences, but it breaks my heart to see Michael forced to reveal things that are no one’s business. No one should ever be put in this position.
I’m also sorry to know that he ever went through such a period in his life. It must have been horrible; even worse than having to stand in front of a camera to talk about it today.
Whoever is involved in this smear operation (assuming Michael’s “good authority” is correct) will get precisely what they deserve; be it in this life or the next. Our Lord will see to it. I know that.
Even so, the vigilante in me would like to batter them personally. Another part of me feels compelled to wish them an eternity in Hell; the abode of he who is inspiring this and the other sins that they’re desperately attempting to hide. There goes that anger again.
By the grace of God, the Catholic in me will win out, however, and I will force myself (with the Lord’s help to be sure) to pray for their conversion, that they might come to know what Michael Voris knows about the liberating power of mercy. God knows that I depend on His mercy as much as anyone.
Michael goes on to say:
It was a mistake to not bring this forth earlier. I did not do it to deceive, but because I did not understand the necessity … I was limiting God. I was restricting, putting limitations on the good news of His saving power. He did not just save me from a bad life — that is far too general. In much more concrete terms, He reached down into the mighty dark waters, the tempest, a sea of sin, and drew me out — for nothing is impossible with God. Nothing.
As for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. (Gen 50:20)
Wicked men are seeking to discredit, embarrass, and destroy this man, but Michael Voris is making it possible for God to use this episode for good, and I have every confidence that He will.
Michael says:
Through the teachings of this Holy Catholic Church established personally by the Son of God on St. Peter for my salvation, your salvation, through Her sacraments, through Her intrinsic power, I was given back my masculinity that I had squandered.
Yes, you were, Michael. It takes a man to respond as you have, and I can’t help but believe that somewhere there is a person lost in sin, destined for death, maybe many such persons, who will be so encouraged by your story that they will seek the Lord’s mercy, come home to the Church, ultimately to be kept alive.
God love you, brother. Be assured of my prayers.
[NOTE: Not that I expect any of our regular commenters would do so, but… I want to be clear: Please, don’t let me see any gloating, making fun, or speculation as to whether or not Michael’s past is truly in the past, etc. None of us would welcome a public accounting of our sins past or present. We can get back to hashing out our differences later. Now is a time to pray for our brother in Christ. Thanks in advance for joining me in that effort.]
I agree with your sentiments, Louie, and I know that God will bring great good out of Michael’s courage in stating honestly his past life. What a miracle of grace God has accomplished in him! Yes, Michael was limiting God, but now, through his courageous coming forward, God will touch many who are steeped in sin as Michael was and draw them out into the light of His LOVE. I pray for you, Michael, that you will see all good people support you and your ministry even more due to your courage and humility in standing up to this challenge created by evil men. God bless you for your courage!!
Why would any of us think that Satan could not stoop so low? He’s Satan, of course he would! And,unfortunately, he’ll always find someone here on earth to do his dirty work. I feel completely unaffected by anything Michael said with regard to his psst sins. He could have said anything, and I don’t think I’d flinch. I was like-bring it on buddy-because I know that Jesus is stronger and could defeat ANY of our past sins. So there’s nothing he could say that was too big for God. Michael’s story is just another example Our Lord’s saving Grace. Thanks be to Our Merciful, Strong Lord who, once again, reached down into the muck and myre to save a soul. And What a great mother he had-doing her duty-to think how she completely offered herself to save her son’s soul! How dare anyone goes near that sacred groud. Michael Voris, of course you have my prayers. But hopefully you will also remember all of us, in our own sins, in your prayers. This is a great opportunity, in whatever sufferings you may be enduring at the hands of these evil men, to offer up your own sufferings, as your mother did, for the conversion of sinners. Nothing is impossible with God!!
And, hey, Michael Voris, if you’re reading this, you have nothing to apologize to me or to anyone else for. Remember, we all have our own batch of sins that we own and thankfully have confessed and turned away from. I happen to think my story of conversion is pretty awesome too. I just said yesterday to someone how grateful I am that I hadn’t died in the many states of mortal sin that I had been in. It’s such a short life time here on earth and such Great Power God has shown us, in His Mercy.
I am glad he had the courage to preempt the attack and fess up to his past. I wish he would use such courage, humility and clarity to admit the wrong he has done by his constant, unprovoked and factually wrong attacks on the SSPX. In this case, it took an imminent ad hominem attack on his person of the foulest kind by evil people in the Church Occupied with their sodomite confederates to make him react. I agree with him, that he had no obligation to full disclosure of his personal sins as private person, but he should have known that once he became a public personality, nolens volens his entire life would be eventually be revealed. Just ask Donald Trump, Ted Cruz or Hilary Clinton about that. Whether he should have preempted the potential attacks long ago is moot. I certainly understand that the nature of the sins, the shame that goes along with them, would make any of us hesitate. I certainly cringe at the thought of my personal sins being known by one and all. So, bravo and well done, Michael! This took courage, God keep and guide you, and even give your apostolate continued Graces and good fortune. You and your crew do a lot of very good work. Now, admit your errors with regard to your constant attacks against the SSPX, and join those of us united to the SSPX in fighting the good fight. By the way, one can disagree with tactics chosen in the past and now in the way we all react to and fight the evil that has beset Holy Mother Church and the world, but we should give one another a ‘bye’ on all that, as we are all affected by the diabolical disorientation of the times, and doing our best by our own and collective lights trying to following the inspirations of the Holy Ghost as best we can via the mediums of our fallen natures. This is a chance for a new start, Michael, in many ways. You might have opened the door of possibility for many sodomites to return to reason and Holy Mother Church. Take this threshold also as a chance to mend fences with the SSPX so we can cooperate and all be stronger as the clouds gather and the storm threatens in a Church occupied by the enemy and a world gone insane in its lust to sin. Deus lo Vult! Commander Sir Joseph Benedikt, USN (Ret), KHS, JB, ICO
The past is the past which is true. He’s going to catch heat for waiting until he was about to be exposed before coming clean. Im not saying he was obliged to come clean BUT as alluded to above, when you are in the public eye the sins of your past have a funny way of being brought to light. My problem with him, like it has been for the past three years….and will continue to be….is his refusal to be honest about francis. This current issue is a personal hit to him no doubt, but its not really whats important as far as he’s concerned. In other words, Im not going to let the fact that I feel bad for him right now blind me to what he’s been about for quite a while (at least as long as I knew who he was).
I have publicly criticised you in the past michael , here in this comment box , but confessed past sins i would never criticise. Humility defeats satan every time im so glad GOD gave you grace to make that video michael voris. We all have past sins that we wouldnt want the world to know. I will pray a rosary today for all your needs. Thanks for the article louie and the sincere words for our brother in christ.
Louie, your post is a beautifully Christian reflection of an equally beautiful, heart-wrenching video. Both the tone it strikes and the sentiments it expresses seem genuinely authentic, sincere and appropriate; they are also very encouraging. Thank you so very much for sharing them.
May God continue to bless both you and Michael Voris.
Let me add, in addition to my first comment, that this smear tactic by the fake cardinal dolan is one more reason for me to DETEST the worldly, godless, vatican 2 false religion. If this clown dolan lived 500 years ago there would be a large pile of wood and a few torches with his name on it. This man, like his boss mr bergoglio, are the epitome of evil.
I posted this to the Church Militant site as well:
I must begin my reply to this from the Scriptures:
“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Luke 18:10-14)
There is nothing more humbling than a public confession of our personal sins and shortcomings. In this particular case there should have been no need for it. What happened prior to Michael’s reversion to the Church was covered by the Blood of Jesus after his first Confession upon that reversion. In God’s sight Michael’s sins were cast as far as east is from west and cast into the depth of the sea never to be remembered. For anyone to consider those forgiven sins as being in some way justification for what has been allowed to fester in the New York Archdiocese and the threat their public exposure as some form of gag upon the mouth of this apostolate is not only sinful abuse to the sanctity of the Confessional but just plain downright disgusting.
Keeping you in prayer, Michael. As Red Green would say, “I’m pulling for you…we’re all in this together.” God bless.
“There go I but for the grace of God.” Many prayers for Mr. Voris. This is truly a battle between principalities and that’s why they cannot dig up “dirt” on Archbishop Lefebvre, because he was truly saintly and the Priesthood he has preserved in Holy Mother Church will be the great destroyer of the filth with the help of the laity who repent of their sins. May St. Michael strengthen Mr. Voris in this horrific battle ahead.
If Voris is sincere then he will be fine. He will have to pay for his contritely confessed mortal sins one way or another (here on earth or in purgatory), but if he is sincere and dies in the state of grace then he is fortunate and is saved. I hope Voris uses this hard time in his life to defending the Faith better than he has.
I wonder if those out to get Michael Voris will consider this video his biggest sin. He says that gay men have given up their masculinity. This is an insult to countless clergy in the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. Michael’s story reminds me in some ways of Father Corapi who, from the very beginning,revealed his sinful lifestyle before his conversion and credits his mother with his astounding return to the Church. Corapi also said that had he died in this lifestyle, he would have been condemned to hell. That is why I find it very difficult to believe that he has returned to that life. Let’s leave it at that—it’s just MY opinion. I don’t wish to start a whole discussion on Father Corapi. Let us pray for both of these men who have had to endure what we must all endure at the General Judgement–when all will be revealed about each and every soul. May Michael’s experience of Our Lord’s mercy teach us that forgiveness of sins comes from repentance, confession to a validly ordained priest, absolution, penance and a firm purpose of amendment. It is not the Protestant version of Mercy—a gift freely given with no strings attached. That is the Bergoglio version of Mercy! May Our Lord and Our Blessed Mother enlighten Mr. Voris regarding the real enemies of Our Lord’s Church.
All of us wretched sinners who know we have been washed in the blood of the Lamb rally around you, Michael. We love you! Your conversion, as does our own, brings tears of joy. Now, let’s roll up our sleeves, clutch our rosaries, put on our holy card faces 😉 and pray fervently for the conversion of the lost churchmen and their syncophants in the diocese of NYC. St Michael, defend us in battle.
Good post. Let us not ever forget that every sin we commit, even though absolved through a true confession, will nonetheless still have to be expiated for. I believe that the average Catholic does not know of the concept of expiation. Im pretty sure that most Catholics think that they go to confession and they are “good to go” and no atonement is necessary after the confession. Obviously that isnt the case but for those who think it is, I’d like to take this moment to point out this fact. A great book to read, to set minds straight, is “Purgatory: Explained by the Lives and Legends of the Saints” by Fr F.X. Schouppe.
Michael Voris 1, Archdiocese of New York 0. This will go down in history as one of the decisive victories in the war to recover Christ’s Church from the usurpers. Bravo Michael.
NEVER forget.
Yeah, rich, good book.
May God bless Michael Voris. What an awful, ugly, hideous, repulsive, and demonic thing the Archdiocese is doing.
Yes Cortez, it certainly is. Ive read it twice and I probably should read it again to keep focused.
The archdiocese of NY is inherently evil to begin with as they adhere to the protestant/jew inspired apostasy of the True Faith that is the vatican 2 false religion. ALL vatican 2 diocese are always going to be evil.
God Bless you, Louie.
I know that a degree of separation had arisen between you and Michael Voris over Church issues which both of you feel very strongly about. I know that you posted about these disagreements on this very site in more recent times.
But your blog entry here demonstrates to me that despite those disagreements you have chosen to see past what differences they are, to offer sincere and heartfelt support to a brother undergoing persecution. I cannot commend you highly enough for that, Louie.
On to the substantive issue, I think Michael Voris public declaration is unprecedented. Voris is a pubic figure on the internet and to have to disclose so publicly past sins is humiliating. The anguish and worry that Michael Voris must have gone through is hard for any of us to imagine.
If one of us were to sin and to make public our confession, chances are that we’d only be exposed to our family and perhaps some close friends, when making such a confession. Imagine for a moment having to confess publicly to thousands of people? The fact that the sins confessed to are heinous makes the burden of such a confession greater. Therefore my admiration for Michael Voris fortitude to confess publicly is all the greater.
He has told us that he struggled with this sin and he has overcome his sin. Each of us struggle to a lesser or greater extent with our sin. All each of us can do is strive to overcome our sins respectively. We owe it to the sinner who makes a sincere confession and genuine repentance, to support that person along the path ahead.
Like Louie, my anger kicks in when I think about the duress brought by the Archdiocese of New York. How can any organisation claiming to be Catholic try to use the past sins of a person – a person who has since confessed and mended their ways – against that person? How in all conscience can the Archdiocese validate such mendacity? Since when is blackmail and duress countenanced? Who in the Archdiocese authorised this?
I appeal to Catholics here – and especially Catholics in the New York Archdiocese – to look in to their hearts and to consider what the Archdiocese was intent on doing.
It was intent on trying to silence a man, using his past sins against him. It is Pharisecial in it’s intent.
How far does this intent go? Are the confession boxes throughout the Archdiocese bugged? That’s where this going Lay-members of the New York diocese. The hierarchy of the New York diocese are intent on blackmailing penitents.
Words fail me at this point.
There is something truly diabolical at work within the Archdiocese of New York. The day of reckoning is here. People employed by that Archdiocese need to now stand up to be counted. That time is now.
Louie, God Bless you for your charity.
Michael Voris if you’re reading this, I hope you stay strong.
Clergy of the New York Archdiocese look in to your hearts and may God give you the Grace to move away from your diabolical ways.
Laity of New York Archdiocese, call your clergy to account over this. You deserve far better.
“New York archdiocese denies allegation that it sought to smear Michael Voris”
The Archdiocese of New York has said it is “absolutely, 100 per cent untrue” that it was preparing to smear the Catholic journalist Michael Voris.
Voris, the editor of ChurchMilitant.com, alleged that the archdiocese had been collecting information about his personal life before he became a Catholic.
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/04/22/new-york-archdiocese-denies-allegation-that-it-sought-to-smear-michael-voris/
This is so moving to me – true confirmation of God’s intercession and mercy! Thank you so much, Michael, for reacting to this plot to discredit you in this way. I believe you will save other souls because of this. Louie, thanks to you for letting us know about this act of courage.
rich do you remember Michael Voris confronting Dolan at St Particks Day parade re: gays marching…….hummm ???? payback can be a B !!!!!
I don’t think it was the archdiocese.
Seems he was blackmailed by an ex-lover who has/had the intention to go to the archdiocese.
Voris should have committed himself to Christ without the publicity. There are many ways to create an apostolate without being in the spotlight.
He sure laid into the SSPX after changing names from RCTV to CMTV. He still calls them an unrepentant schismatic sect.
In any case, pray for Voris.
I have no doubt that God has forgiven Michael Voris his sins. I am wondering about those in the Archdiocese of NY who have been colluding in his character assassination. Do they even see their actions as evil-?
I don’t think his personal issue is relevant at all. But he would be held responsible for leading others to believe and live in the heresies of Vatican II. Let’s all pray for his conversion to the true Faith lest he by God’s grace overcame moral issues in personal life but lose his soul because of lack of supernatural faith in Christ and His Church.
My respect for Michael Voris for this act of courage has been restored.
My esteem for you, Louie, has skyrocketed.
Well said, Paul Morphy.
Excellent points you make here.
You are both in my prayers.
Michael I honestly feel terrible for you. For any one of us to have our past exposed is horrible especially since those sins in the eyes of God have been forgiven and forgotten. Unfortunately, and I don’t say this to be prideful but I also can’t help but think it is a punishment and opportunity from God for the way you’ve treated the SSPX which is also dedicated to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and The Immaculate Heart of Mary. This is also a great lesson for all of us to be careful about what we say about people or organizations who are Truly Catholic. Calumny, detraction, and false witness are terribly destructive and the backlash, as Michael Voris is unfortunately going through, can be extremely painful and in some cases deadly.
Amen Louie!! I have nothing but tremendous respect for Michael in his ‘public confession to the world’. Anyone who would do what he did has to love the Lord in His Church deeply! He is indeed fighting the good fight, and as others, I have not at all agreed with him on his stance on the SSPX, nor the ‘NEVER question or criticize a sitting Pope stance’, but he is most definitely in my prayers. And yes, if he is correct on his sources that the Archdiocese was really going to ‘out him’ they most definitely are the most diabolical bunch of evil men that Satan ever spewed out of his mouth. Like you, I will have to work up to praying for them, but that will happen too.
One has to have the Faith in order to recognize actions as evil or good.
I would say that just the intense humiliation and shame he must have felt in having to recount his past sins publicly would probably be all the punishment needed, if in fact he had already not done penance enough. Being a very long time supporter of the SSPX, I have been seriously irritated by his constant attacks and thought he was very smug, as thought he could attack the Society with impunity. I like the look he had on his face in this latest video, however, and I believe that the reason God allowed all of this, is to cleanse him of that sense of uber-righteousness we have when we are newly reclaimed from a life filled with shame. Now he can really do some good things, and I too, hope he will stop his attacks on the SSPX. May God and His Holy Mother console him during the coming “leaks” by the Archdiocese, what hypocrisy on their part.
The “tool” the devil had intended to use against him, Voris has snatched back and by his open confession has given Glory to God. Well done!
It appears that some of his spiritual advisors are distancing themfelves from CMTV.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9BhYhPzSgEI/VxpIYuprntI/AAAAAAAAIqU/kbKS1UtlxtMUh1XWSYZCAr5vhk7SX7zsQCLcB/s1600/post.png
No great loss. Father Paul Nicholson is not a great asset to anyone. His words are poison.
Transgender restrooms, Amoris Letitia, the NYC Diocese vs Michael Voris…diabolical disorientation is flourishing. Lord, Have Mercy!
In the midst of all kinds of tragedies and sorrows, Our Lady assures us She will never leave us:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/22/world/americas/virgin-mary-statue-intact-among-ecuadors-quake-ruins-becomes-a-beacon-of-hope.html?_r=2
“And I’ll see your true colors shining through.” -Cyndi Lauper
Some would say the real victim in all this is the Archdiocese of New York who’re accused –without evidence– of being gay-shaming bullies by Voris.
The battle is raging. There will be no prisoners. If he perseveres, Michael Voris has taken a big step in becoming a great saint. Praise God. All glory to God for ever and ever!
Well said,
Dear Louie,
You have responded as a true Catholic to this sad episode. A real Catholic doesn’t gloat over the sins of another. I will join you in prayers for Michael Voris and pray that God brings good out of this. I can’t imagine my sins revealed for the world to see but Voris must now endure this trial. He has done much good for the Church.
I remember it well.
Thanks for your commentary, Louie. It is a disgrace that Michael felt he had to make public sins that are publicly between him, his confessor, and God. It is horrible to contemplate that churchmen would be planning to smear someone with their confessed sins, but such is the world we live in. But God is all-good and merciful, and it makes me happy to see someone like Michael who has, despite whatever disagreements one might have with him, turned his life around to serve Christ’s Church.
Lord, have mercy.
LOL Figures fr. n is more concerned about the money !!! DISGUSTING !!!!
I mentioned a book about purgatory up above. After reading that book twice I would never presume for a second that simple humiliation on earth could serve as expiation for our sins. Souls suffer in purgatory for a lot less than what Voris did.
“Some would say the real victim in all this is the Archdiocese of New York who’re accused –without evidence– of being gay-shaming bullies by Voris.”
That is correct. You have a great point. What Voris should have done is, if he thinks it is necessary tell his life story without accusing NY diocese at all, at least not name them. Focusing on the Crucified Christ rather than his own personal reputation. Again his soul would not be damaged even there are untruth told about him. But God would not look kindly on him and his outfit even they produce lies about the Roman Pontiff on a daily basis, calling good evil and evil good.
“He has done much good for the Church.” Where does this comment come from? He leads people on a daily basis to practice the mortal sin of Papalotry, worshipping man instead of God. He has to be stopped.
All I could do was cry this morning. Deep agony of heart and sorrow for this wicked, wicked sin of sodomy that seems to have spread its tentacles everywhere. When is this evil with sex going to stop? When O God?! When? O God PLEASE come to our assistance, O Lord PLEASE make haste to help us!
I admire greatly what Michael has done and the almost 1200 comments that have poured in on CM are a testimony to the many people he is reaching out to and helping through his extremely difficult public confession and the graces he received to fight this bastard sexual crisis in our world.
“Thanks for your commentary, Louie. It is a disgrace that Michael felt he had to make public sins that are publicly between him, his confessor, and God”
Amen! Amen! We should pray one day before he dies he would stop leading others on the road of worshipping Vatican II, the road of perdition.
“Father Paul Nicholson is not a great asset to anyone. His words are poison.” But did you ever check out his youtube viewership? maybe 20 views? While Voris reaches 150k facebook followers at least, who can do more damage to Catholic Faithful?
Deo Gratias. Well said Commander.
The Irony is that the laity who attend the SSPX to receive their sacraments are the ones currently in Voris’ corner during his ordeal. I pray Voris sees the truth and no longer thinks of the SSPX as and “excommunicated, schismatic sect.”
Actually, Fr Nicholson (who I personally do not stand) said this last night, distancing himself from Voris:
“Those who are the most ardent fault finders are those who suffer from a deep self-hatred. Homosexual acts produces in an individual such self-loathing that it not surprising that the gay culture manifests itself in attacking with hostility. Unwittingly the culture of the Internet is dominated by this gay culture … And today, many Catholics are so deformed that they have succumbed to it. That is why there are groups and individuals who can make a living off of bashing bishops. They survive on poorly formed Catholics. Do not follow or listen to anyone who bashes the sacred hierarchy. It is an evident sign they experience self-loathing. Even if the person has repented of deep sexual sins in their past, human nature will be infected by those sins. It can happen therefore that the prodigal son can turn into the elder brother. Have nothing to do with these forms of “apostolate”.”
He finished with
“To save us all a lot trouble, let me say that I am more than happy to have anyone unfriend me who thinks that you can serve the Church by using: Rage (impersonating holy anger), Sarcasm, Gossip, Shame. These tactics belong to the world. These are not instruments that Catholics can use to reform the Church. The sexual revolution has ruined all of us. We are all loaded with self-hatred. That is why we need to try to be good children of God. That is why we must try to be Christian. The gay culture lives off of rage, sarcasm, gossip and shame. The gay culture destroys dioceses, religious orders, even noble attempts to serve the Church. I am done with the gay culture impersonating service to the Church. Done. Absolutely done. Unfriend me so we can go our separate ways. I am done catering to this pathology.”
“But your blog entry here demonstrates to me that despite those disagreements you have chosen to see past what differences they are” “differences”??? really? One denounces the diabolical disorientation of Vatican II while Voris confirms and supports the diabolical disorientation of Vatican II(the damage is greater because he did not take the position of Neo Catholic before and changed his mind after building up a sizable followings).
Exactly.
https://youtu.be/D0M7vvX6__M
This evil generation seeks a sign, but none shall be given it, except the sign of Jonah.
Jonah 2:1-9
And Jonas prayed to the Lord his God out of the belly of the fish.
And he said: I cried out of my affliction to the Lord, and he heard me: I cried out of the belly of hell, and thou hast heard my voice.
And thou hast cast me forth into the deep in the heart of the sea, and a flood hath compassed me: all thy billows, and thy waves have passed over me.
And I said: I am cast away out of the sight of thy eyes: but yet I shall see thy holy temple again.
The waters compassed me about even to the soul: the deep hath closed me round about, the sea hath covered my head.
I went down to the lowest parts of the mountains: the bars of the earth have shut me up for ever: and thou wilt bring up my life from corruption,
O Lord my God.
When my soul was in distress within me, I remembered the Lord: that my prayer may come to thee, unto thy holy temple.
They that are vain observe vanities, forsake their own mercy.
But I with the voice of praise will sacrifice to thee: I will pay whatsoever I have vowed for my salvation to the Lord.
Michael F Poulin
What is the difference between what Voris did and what “Pastor” Lamb did? Both public confessed of past indiscretions.
http://www.star-telegram.com/living/family/moms/article3826460.html
It is courageous for Lamb to admit his sexual affairs but does that mean he can be saved being a heretic?
I never thought I would be saying this but this move by Mr. Voris is a EPIC power move and this preemptive kind of move should serve as an example to churchmen and politicians who are currently being blacked mailed or fear they could be blacked mailed by past or current sins OF ANY KIND this very courageous video by Voris should serve as a example on how we get the Church and our country back.
If the servants of Satan seek to enslave Catholics by past sins this is how we beat them. Voris is a dummie on the SSPX and other Catholics but this power move is EPIC.
God bless Michael Voris
In charity, everyone should join with Louie and pray for Michael whose story confirms two truths. (1)”Nothing is impossible for God” and (2) there is nothing like the daylight of truth to get one focused. The timing and method of this disclosure was painful to watch. However, it was not so much a surprise as it was a confirmation for longtime observers of Michael and hints he has provided over the years. May the Lord and His Mother bless him.
May they also enlighten him with the same sense of Truth and their bearers to also shed light on his misinformed positions as to the SSPX. On this critical issue MV/CM has done a disservice to the faithful on the battlefields in the war on confusion.
Correct. Well said!
Voris just opened up a can of unnecessary worms by involving the archdiocese. They can go after him based on libelous claims. I hope Voris can backup what he said.
“Michael’s story reminds me in some ways of Father Corapi who, from the very beginning,revealed his sinful lifestyle before his conversion and credits his mother with his astounding return to the Church”
Very interesting observation. I remember clearly that was the first time I had my reservation on Voris a couple years before I terminated my premium membership with CMTV when Voris was the only Catholic personality did an episode to support Corapi. Thanks for the comment.
“Voris should have committed himself to Christ without the publicity. There are many ways to create an apostolate without being in the spotlight.
He sure laid into the SSPX after changing names from RCTV to CMTV. He still calls them an unrepentant schismatic sect.
In any case, pray for Voris.”
Amen to that! On Voris and SSPX, the difference is Voris’ reputation is at stake and SSPX reputation and salvation of souls is at stake.
For one, Pastor Lamb confessed to his wife and Michael Voris confessed to a priest. Your comment seems to suggest to me that you don’t understand the seriousness and depth of what’s going on here. Re-read the article and comments and think about it.
Many of us born post 1960AD were the cheated generation; we were not born or raised traditional Catholics, we had to learn it on our own. In that journey, many who I’d call “non-Tradition” people had a hand in bringing me back into the Church, such as my wife, my faithful priest and fellow parishioners, and a Protestant pastor friend and coworker of mine who challenged my faith and led me to discover apologetics. Apologetics eventually led to history and writings of the Church Fathers and Tradition. So I owe much to the Vatican II “professional Catholic” crowd such as Steve Ray, Patrick Madrid, Dave Armstrong, Fr Corapi, Scott Hahn, Brant Pitre, Timothy Gray, Fr Mitch Pacwa, Mother Angelica, Ben Wiker, Jeff Cavins, Mike Aquilina , Peter Kreeft and others. The discovery of Tradition came only later, but it would never have happened without them. So I cannot condemn such persons for their ignorance but can only hope and pray that they too will find the joy and peace of the Traditional (aka Catholic ) faith which we all love, and become allies in this battle. Mr Voris will be an ally too someday I am sure.
Michael F Poulin
“The modern world is very similar to the ancient world in which the Christian religion was first established. It is pagan, sexually perverse, religiously cynical, and aggressively anti-Christian. This makes it quite difficult to be a faithful Catholic and a public witness of Jesus Christ and His Church. In order to be such a witness, one must be motivated by the virtue of charity, which is the cause and foundation of the zeal for souls. However, one must also possess knowledge of Holy Scripture, doctrine, and morality gained through assiduous study that allows one to convincingly communicate the Catholic faith. To put it more simply: the apologist has one primary tool: TRUTH. But he or she must learn how to effectively use this tool in a world that ignores it, denies it, and often despises it. As Jesus warned,
“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves” (Mt. 10:16).
quoted from The Fullness of Truth Apostolate ; by Timothy O’Keefe
Minor discrepancies..
No he probably reached many more times than Voris, he confessed on the second biggest Protestant network called Star T.V.(the biggest one is TBN). They are in exact same position, confessing a violation of 6th commandment publicly yet reject the first 3 commandments to worship God. Voris would be at a lower level in hell (if he does not repent) because he has Catholic Sacraments available to him.
“Many of us born post 1960AD were the cheated generation; we were not born or raised traditional Catholics, we had to learn it on our own. In that journey, many who I’d call “non-Tradition” people had a hand in bringing me back into the Church, such as my wife, my faithful priest and fellow parishioners, and a Protestant pastor friend and coworker of mine who challenged my faith and led me to discover apologetics. Apologetics eventually led to history and writings of the Church Fathers and Tradition. ”
We went through the same thing (except I was not a Catholic a couple years ago) but one thing that sets you apart from Neo Catholics is you are willing to cooperate with God’s grace while other reverts and converts reject that grace. Don’t you think Patrick Madrid would have read all the criticism of Vatican II documents before he wrote articles to defend Vatican II? Salvation is really a mystery that only God knows who are the elects and who are the reprobates. Let’s not call heretics non heretics because we encounter them on our way to the truth(of course I am still searching on SSPX, the resistant of SSPX, Sedevacantist etc.)
I hate to say this because I think Fr. N is a heretic but what you quoted suggests he has a point. I think Louie did write an article on this issue called “It is the Pope stupid” That is the problem with Voris he always blame the bishops when the problem is the Pope, they merely are taking orders. And more than post V2 Popes. it is Vatican II. Louie also wrote an article called “It is Vatican II stupid”. So unless Voris face this two truths he is setting up every day to call good evil and evil good in all his work at CMTV.
I have been praying for Michael Voris since my own reversion (new expression for me…) three years ago. His was the first online apostolate that I found. His story is similar to mine: to have a parent praying, sacrificing and suffering for a child’s conversion and [our] promise that it not be in vain in our return Home. His attacks on SSPX also have frustrated me as I attend their chapels exclusively. However, I still appreciate his sincere effort to educate the faithful during this terrible crisis. He clearly truly loves the Church and is putting forth every effort to help bring as many souls back to Christ as he can. I will always pray for this soldier of the Holy Catholic Church.
Bizarre words from a priest toward a repentant sinner. This Fr Nicholson character is the same one that caumniated Fr Gruner post mortem right? Yeah…he’s a peach.
Errr no… this is stupid.
God gave Voris talent and the ability to be the media guy that he is.
He’s using what he’s best at and learnt to do to serve God. CMTV fills a void with regards to Catholic presence on the internet media that was never there, and deserve recognition for it.
All this whining from Mr. Danielpan and Mr. GMU about how Mr. Voris should best serve God are stupid.
For all the problems CMTV has with regards to the SSPX and the Pope, it is generally a great apostolate and Voris has brought it far and has put together a lot of material over the years that is much appreciated by many.
How does Voris reject the first 3 Commandments? What are you going on about?
The Archidiocese of NY hasn’t a shred of credibility.
There’s documentable history of people within various archdioceses trying to shut down Voris as far back as RealCatholicTV.
Given that Voris and CMTV are really exposing the unholiness within the NY Archdiocese, it’s not at all implausible that those devils would try and find any dirt they can to smear him.
They can’t fight the facts, so the next best thing is to discredit the messenger. Typical of liberals.
Now you are engaging in flat out calumny?
If you’re going to smear a man, at least get the facts right.
Voris doesn’t practice Papalotry. The worst you could accuse him of is cowardice or falling prey to a conflict of interest with regards to keeping his apostolate funded or from an immoderate fear that criticizing the Pope may push some woefully undereducated Catholics who are viewers of CMTV from falling victim to Sedevacantist nonsense.
He’s caught in some sort of dilemma with regards to the Pope, but that’s still a far cry from outright claiming Pope Francis is right about everything, especially in light of other recent videos where, while not directly attacking Francis, Voris continuously clarifies that not everything Popes say or do will be free from error. So Voris takes a stance similar to that of Cardinal Burke when it comes to handling the Pope.
So please refrain from spreading false witness against Voris.
Johnno, the archdiocese does not have anything to prove or disprove. If anything, the burden of proof is on Voris.
The biggest moral loser right now is Voris, but he kamikaze’d his reputation on the archdiocese. Unless he can back that up, that is low.
I am no fan of the novus ordo newchurch. But until now, Voris has publicly smeared the SSPX with lies and has brazenly insults to the laity who attends SSPX masses. That right there raises a red flag. Voris is not trustworthy. I’m sorry. Yes, I said it. This has nothing to do with his “past sins”, he repented, confessed (says he) it’s over. The issue is he publicly pointed the finger at the Archdiocese and made a video with 7000 hits in less 24 hours. Except for ratings, nothing adds up.
“We have on very good authority from various sources that the New York archdiocese is collecting and preparing to quietly filter out details of my past life with the aim of publicly discrediting me, this apostolate and the work here.
…….I have made many mistakes and missteps as the leader here, but in regard to this specific point, it was a mistake to not bring this forth earlier. I did not do it to deceive, but because I did not understand the necessity.”
My issue with Voris is not his past life. I’ll leave that to Almighty God. I do feel very strongly, however, that pointing out the errors of the church is of no use without identifying the root cause. He stops short at Bishops while protecting the ultimate authority which causes and allows anti-Catholic behavior and beliefs. When the Pope is wrong—he is WRONG! Why does he cover up for Bergoglio when his words and actions are heretical? Why does he steer his viewers away from those who are promoting and preserving True Catholicism. Why does have no apparent desire to join those who fight to “restore all things in Christ”? Voris may not face eternal punishment for confessed sins, but he (like all of us!) need to examine our conscience for sins which lead others astray. Voris’ reversion to the Catholic Church was not complete. Prayers are needed.
Which only begs the question, whose daily reversions and conversions are ever complete? Both you and Voris are too smart to deny God’s omnipotence. None can mark out His limits of what He can do for us and in us and through us even to our last dying breath…and beyond.
Alarico, thank you for your comment. That is why prayers are needed FOR ALL OF US! However, Voris has much influence with his viewers and what he says (or doesn’t say) could make a huge difference in this battle to save Our Lord’s Church from Her enemies. But in the end, God is truly ALMIGHTY!! This is our assurance–not Voris or anyone else.
if we acknowledge these perspectives, one, you’re a hero for being gay and coming out (not true) and you’re a hero for being gay and chaste (not true).
Gayness has permeated the culture so much that we don’t even realized how sympathetic we’ve become to this sin. “victim soul”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0sILSapUUc (2:23)
I’m ignoring the histrionics and false-charity and looking at the facts. So far Mr. Voris is the only person to accuse anybody of anything, an accusation which he made on the “authority” of unnamed sources.
Just had to immediately run off-topic to spew dogmatic sedevacantist error, eh? Now, again, it’s not possible, by Christ’s promise, for the visible hierarchical Church He founded to turn into a false Church. It’s only the human element that *can* fail, in any way (and fail they most certainly have).
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I guess I have to do this again:
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Sedevacantism: A Bridge Too Far
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The dogmatic sedevacantist position is one that appears as a legitimate solution to this crisis in the Church (the worst in Her history) only to those who have not yet fully explored its ramifications and/or do not know her theology well enough. In point of fact, there are at least several “one-shot kills” of the position – simple facts that, in and of themselves, render it untenable – impossible and leading directly to material heresy. We will explore a few of them here.
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Before we begin, there is something else to note: The dogmatic sedevacantist position actually *encompasses* the “recognize & resist” response to wayward prelates (which is what the Church really teaches, more or less) that they mock, but simply takes it further – at least one bridge too far (and sometimes as many as 30 or so). Those who recognize prelates the Church has validly elected (as the Church and even common sense require, in the end), but decline to accept their non-binding, non-infallible teachings (again, as the Church commands) use their intellects and actual, binding Church teaching to determine what is congruent with that teaching and what is not – just as God and the Church have always required. Sedevacantists do the same, but then, continue where they have no logical or lawful right to go, declaring that a pope the Church has elected is not really a pope because the individual determines he is a heretic either before or after his election. So, when the sede disparages the position that the popes and theologians have aspired, to recognize but resist prelates with false (but non-binding) teachings, they condemn their own position as well, essentially.
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Concerning that critical determination of heresy, it is here where the dogmatic sedes first go wrong – and these errors in premise result in large errors in conclusion. The fact (as has been thoroughly demonstrated by Robert Siscoe over the past few years, causing sede leaders to (futiliy) shift their arguments, etc.) is that there is no theologian in the history of the Church who ever sanctioned what the sedes do: Making the critical determination of formal (obstinate) heresy a matter of private judgment. Bellarmine, the sedes’ go-to theologian, was explicit in the fact that the determination of formal heresy is something that belongs to *the Church*: the Church must, at the least, issue two formal warnings to an erring pontiff before it declares him *to have judged himself* (since he can be judged by no man).
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To continue past that, the basic tenet of dogmatic sedevacantism – that men canonically elected pope are actually *not*, and that an individual can determine this for himself and then insist upon it as a *public fact* that mus be accepted by all – can be proven false rather simply and from several different angles. Here are a few:
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1) The Fourth Ecumenical Council of Constantinople, Canon 10: The Church directly and formally considered the question of whether or not the faithful can formally separate from any prelate sans judgment by the Church, and the answer was no. Sedevacantists live materially under the anathema the council declared:
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“… this holy and universal synod justly and fittingly declares and lays down that no lay person or monk or cleric should separate himself from communion with his own patriarch before a careful enquiry and judgment in synod, even if he alleges that he knows of some crime perpetrated by his patriarch, and he must not refuse to include his patriarch’s name during the divine mysteries or offices.”
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Fr. Cekada, in a perfect display of what sedevacantism is really about, objects that this canon that says one can’t depose prelates doesn’t apply to the prelates he wants to separate from because he’s declared them deposed! It comes back to his judgement, which he insists must be regarded as factual and accepted with ecclesiastical (if not divine) faith, regardless of any “careful enquiry and judgment in synod”.
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So, already, we can say sedevacantism is false: QED.
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2) The Church’s public acceptance of a supreme pontiff is itself proof of his validity; the theologians agree that it is a dogmatic fact. I.e., if we didn’t know if we ever had a pope we wouldn’t know ANYTHING: We wouldn’t know the dogmas he’d proclaimed (directly or via ratification of an ecumenical council’s teachigs) were true or not. Thus, the Holy Ghost would not allow, could not allow the visible Church to accept a pope as such if he were not. Anarchy (such as the anarchy of sedevacantism) would be the result if the Church did not have certainty in the validity of a papal election: Not only would no one ever know if we had a pope or not at the present time, no one could ever have even moral certainty in the validity of past popes, and thus no one could grant even ecclesiastical faith to *any* of the Church’s dogmas (since the validity of the promulgating pontiff would not be morally certain). (And we do have sedevacantist leaders extent who have declared invalid popes that reigned centuries ago that the Church has always recognized as valid pontiffs, so this not some kind of theoretical red herring.)
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(Note that the exceptions such as the Western Schism do not undo this rule: In such cases there obviously was *not* universal acceptance of the pontiff.)
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3) The Visibility of the Church: The Church’s visibility is one of her three attributes – necessary qualities that follow directly from her nature – and sedevacantism leads directly to a denial of it (or her indefectibility, which is an even more serious breach of Catholic doctrine).
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This visibility has both material and formal aspects: Materially, people can identify the Church by her visible members & hierarchy and also (the important, formal part) know that this is the Catholic Church, by her Marks. For God to command that souls enter this Church (as He does) as the Ark of Salvation, it must be formally visible. As Christ’s incarnate, physical Body was visible, so is that of His Church. (And as He is composed of two natures, divine and human, so is the Church – one can err, one cannot.)
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The notion of an invisible Church (with visible members) was, of course, one of the primary errors/denials of the early “Reformers”, and that is exactly where sedevacantists have pitched their tent today – as with the Protestants, it is essentially a necessary consequence of their position. Sede leaders have advanced models of the Church that are identical to the Protestant definition. But the Church cannot be invisible; it cannot be hidden; it cannot be some visible entity other than what it was in the past. Any of these things destroy the Church’s teachings regarding her visibility. Sedevacantism tosses this to the wind with their talk of the “false church of Vatican II”. If this Church is now false, where, now, is the Catholic Church? Clearly they cannot point to any specific Church that has her four Marks and necessary attributes. They know this and do not try; that is how they end up with the Protestent definition of the Church.
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(Somewhat related to visibility is the mark of universality (catholicity). Theologians have discussed two two aspects of catholicity: right & fact. The former of these means that the Church always had the aptitude to spread throughout the world, and the latter that it did, in fact, do so. Van Noort, among others, notes that once the Church became universal in fact (spread to many nations) this characteristic became a permanent, necessary quality of it. Thus, once the Church (visible as she always has been and will be) became spread broadly among many nations, this so-called moral universality became a permanent property. The Church is now formally visible throughout virtually the entire world, perpetually – everyone (generally speaking) knows of the Catholic Church. It can never be the case that the Church that was once so broadly visible can cease to be visible, formally, anywhere. It will also never be reduced to a number or size that lacks moral universality – a *tiny* remnant.)
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I think there are more one-shot killers such as these but that will suffice.
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We can say it’s intuitively obvious that the Church just can’t work the way the sedes assert. If personal heresy (judged authoritatively by a third-party individual) were enough to deprive a pope of his ecclesiastical office (or prevent him from obtaining it), no Catholic at any time in history would know if we had a pope or not and thus no Catholic in the world at any time or place could have ecclesiastical faith in anything the Church has ever taught as definitive. This point is intentionally reiterated for effect.
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God hasn’t given us a Church, perpetual, indefectible, and immaculate, the infallible Ark of Salvation, yet so ridiculously fragile and subject to individual whim as they imagine. It can’t have been meant to work that way and it does not work that way. Realizing how terrible this crisis of modernism is, seeing the Church bruised and bloodied, is indeed impetus for *exploring* notion such that the pontiffs who have ruled over this ruin were and are not truly popes. However, it simply is not possible to conclude so without embracing not only logical absurdities but material heresy as well.
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So, concluding that sedevacantism just doesn’t work, what’s a Catholic to do when faced with Popes who at least seem to undermine Catholic doctrine in their statements and practices, and even foist (but not authoratively) a new Rite of Mass upon the entire Roman Church designed to subjugate Catholic dogma so as to appeal to heretics? Fortunately, the answer to that query is essentially provided by the theologians and popes of old. The below is nothing but the barest of introductions to the subject.
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Sedevacantists like the papal bull Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio because they think it justifies their position. However, Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio speaks of *valid popes*: “the Roman Pontiff… who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the faith”. Here we have a veritable R&R proof-text, don’t we? We have a Supreme Pontiff telling us in a papal bull no less that the faithful should, indeed, “contradict” (resist) a pope who has “deviated from the faith”. Implicit in the statement is the notion that human beings must be willing to use their intellects to determine what is congruent with the defined, infallible Faith and what is not. He is to be resisted, but certainly there no justification for declaring him deposed.
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St. Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church: “We must point out, besides, that the faithful can certainly distinguish a true prophet (teacher) from a false one, by the rule that we have laid down, but for all that, if the pastor is a bishop, they cannot depose him and put another in his place [recognize]. For Our Lord and the Apostles only lay down that false prophets are not to be listened to by the people [resist], and not that they depose them [recognize]. And it is certain that the practice of the Church has always been that heretical bishops be deposed by bishop’s councils, or by the Sovereign Pontiff” (from De Membris Ecclesiae, as quoted in True Or False Pope, pp 645-646; bracketed portions are from True of False Pope). So, the sedes’ go-to theologian tells us that false prophets are “not to be listened to” *and* specifically that they “not depose him”.
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Pope Adrian II: “It is true that Honorius was posthumumously anathematised by the Eastern churches, but it must be borne in mind that he had been accused of heresy, *the only offense which renders lawful the resistance of subordinates to their superiors, and their rejection of the latter’s pernicious teachings*” (Cited by Billot, Tractatus de Ecclesia Christi, as quoted in True or False Pope, pp 647, emphasis mine).
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The canon Si Papa, part of canon law for around eight centuries, says this: “Let no mortal man presume to accuse the Pope of fault, for, it being incumbent upon him to judge all, he should be judged by no one, unless he is suddenly caught deviating from the faith.” (This quote is sometimes attributed directly to Pope Innocent III; it is likely not his, but clearly reflects not just theological opinion but Church law. It is also used by sedevacantists themselves to justify individuals’ formal separation from/deposition of a pontiff, but it clearly justifies no such thing.)
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Of course, there are many more such quotations, from theologians including Aquinas, that could be brought to bear.
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These teachings of the theologians and papal Magisterium are congruent with what the Magisterium teaching about itself, in that it is the Deposit of Faith that is the primary rule of faith, with the Magisterium secondary. The secondary Rule cannot contradict the primary without losing its essence and validity. Aquinas: “We believe the successors of the apostles only in so far as they tell us those things which the apostles and prophets have left in their writings” (De Veritate, as quotes in True or False Pope, pp 648). Aquinas points out that it is the virtue of Faith that allows Catholics to sense error – Catholics have the blessing of the Church as Mother and Teacher, but, especially in abnormal times, no Catholic can leave himself without the benefit of both his intellect and the enlightenment of the Holy Ghost.
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This post is intended to be as brief, given the venue. I recognize that references are not provided consistently. If you’d like to challenge any particular point, please go ahead, and I will respond with more detail and references.
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Finally, for a thorough demonstration on how the leaders of the sedevacantist movement have completely and absolutely failed to meaningfully engage, much less refute, Salza & Siscoe’s new work, have a look here:
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http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/sedevacantist-watch.html
You really go overboard with your invective, based in so small part on subjective judgement.
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Now, again, it’s not possible, by Christ’s promise, for the visible hierarchical Church He founded to turn into a false Church. It’s only the human element that *can* fail, in any way (and fail they most certainly have).
–
Here we go again:
–
Sedevacantism: A Bridge Too Far
–
The dogmatic sedevacantist position is one that appears as a legitimate solution to this crisis in the Church (the worst in Her history) only to those who have not yet fully explored its ramifications and/or do not know her theology well enough. In point of fact, there are at least several “one-shot kills” of the position – simple facts that, in and of themselves, render it untenable – impossible and leading directly to material heresy. We will explore a few of them here.
–
Before we begin, there is something else to note: The dogmatic sedevacantist position actually *encompasses* the “recognize & resist” response to wayward prelates (which is what the Church really teaches, more or less) that they mock, but simply takes it further – at least one bridge too far (and sometimes as many as 30 or so). Those who recognize prelates the Church has validly elected (as the Church and even common sense require, in the end), but decline to accept their non-binding, non-infallible teachings (again, as the Church commands) use their intellects and actual, binding Church teaching to determine what is congruent with that teaching and what is not – just as God and the Church have always required. Sedevacantists do the same, but then, continue where they have no logical or lawful right to go, declaring that a pope the Church has elected is not really a pope because the individual determines he is a heretic either before or after his election. So, when the sede disparages the position that the popes and theologians have aspired, to recognize but resist prelates with false (but non-binding) teachings, they condemn their own position as well, essentially.
–
Concerning that critical determination of heresy, it is here where the dogmatic sedes first go wrong – and these errors in premise result in large errors in conclusion. The fact (as has been thoroughly demonstrated by Robert Siscoe over the past few years, causing sede leaders to (futiliy) shift their arguments, etc.) is that there is no theologian in the history of the Church who ever sanctioned what the sedes do: Making the critical determination of formal (obstinate) heresy a matter of private judgment. Bellarmine, the sedes’ go-to theologian, was explicit in the fact that the determination of formal heresy is something that belongs to *the Church*: the Church must, at the least, issue two formal warnings to an erring pontiff before it declares him *to have judged himself* (since he can be judged by no man).
–
To continue past that, the basic tenet of dogmatic sedevacantism – that men canonically elected pope are actually *not*, and that an individual can determine this for himself and then insist upon it as a *public fact* that mus be accepted by all – can be proven false rather simply and from several different angles. Here are a few:
–
1) The Fourth Ecumenical Council of Constantinople, Canon 10: The Church directly and formally considered the question of whether or not the faithful can formally separate from any prelate sans judgment by the Church, and the answer was no. Sedevacantists live materially under the anathema the council declared:
–
“… this holy and universal synod justly and fittingly declares and lays down that no lay person or monk or cleric should separate himself from communion with his own patriarch before a careful enquiry and judgment in synod, even if he alleges that he knows of some crime perpetrated by his patriarch, and he must not refuse to include his patriarch’s name during the divine mysteries or offices.”
–
Fr. Cekada, in a perfect display of what sedevacantism is really about, objects that this canon that says one can’t depose prelates doesn’t apply to the prelates he wants to separate from because he’s declared them deposed! It comes back to his judgement, which he insists must be regarded as factual and accepted with ecclesiastical (if not divine) faith, regardless of any “careful enquiry and judgment in synod”.
–
So, already, we can say sedevacantism is false: QED.
–
2) The Church’s public acceptance of a supreme pontiff is itself proof of his validity; the theologians agree that it is a dogmatic fact. I.e., if we didn’t know if we ever had a pope we wouldn’t know ANYTHING: We wouldn’t know the dogmas he’d proclaimed (directly or via ratification of an ecumenical council’s teachigs) were true or not. Thus, the Holy Ghost would not allow, could not allow the visible Church to accept a pope as such if he were not. Anarchy (such as the anarchy of sedevacantism) would be the result if the Church did not have certainty in the validity of a papal election: Not only would no one ever know if we had a pope or not at the present time, no one could ever have even moral certainty in the validity of past popes, and thus no one could grant even ecclesiastical faith to *any* of the Church’s dogmas (since the validity of the promulgating pontiff would not be morally certain). (And we do have sedevacantist leaders extent who have declared invalid popes that reigned centuries ago that the Church has always recognized as valid pontiffs, so this not some kind of theoretical red herring.)
–
(Note that the exceptions such as the Western Schism do not undo this rule: In such cases there obviously was *not* universal acceptance of the pontiff.)
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3) The Visibility of the Church: The Church’s visibility is one of her three attributes – necessary qualities that follow directly from her nature – and sedevacantism leads directly to a denial of it (or her indefectibility, which is an even more serious breach of Catholic doctrine).
–
This visibility has both material and formal aspects: Materially, people can identify the Church by her visible members & hierarchy and also (the important, formal part) know that this is the Catholic Church, by her Marks. For God to command that souls enter this Church (as He does) as the Ark of Salvation, it must be formally visible. As Christ’s incarnate, physical Body was visible, so is that of His Church. (And as He is composed of two natures, divine and human, so is the Church – one can err, one cannot.)
–
The notion of an invisible Church (with visible members) was, of course, one of the primary errors/denials of the early “Reformers”, and that is exactly where sedevacantists have pitched their tent today – as with the Protestants, it is essentially a necessary consequence of their position. Sede leaders have advanced models of the Church that are identical to the Protestant definition. But the Church cannot be invisible; it cannot be hidden; it cannot be some visible entity other than what it was in the past. Any of these things destroy the Church’s teachings regarding her visibility. Sedevacantism tosses this to the wind with their talk of the “false church of Vatican II”. If this Church is now false, where, now, is the Catholic Church? Clearly they cannot point to any specific Church that has her four Marks and necessary attributes. They know this and do not try; that is how they end up with the Protestent definition of the Church.
–
(Somewhat related to visibility is the mark of universality (catholicity). Theologians have discussed two two aspects of catholicity: right & fact. The former of these means that the Church always had the aptitude to spread throughout the world, and the latter that it did, in fact, do so. Van Noort, among others, notes that once the Church became universal in fact (spread to many nations) this characteristic became a permanent, necessary quality of it. Thus, once the Church (visible as she always has been and will be) became spread broadly among many nations, this so-called moral universality became a permanent property. The Church is now formally visible throughout virtually the entire world, perpetually – everyone (generally speaking) knows of the Catholic Church. It can never be the case that the Church that was once so broadly visible can cease to be visible, formally, anywhere. It will also never be reduced to a number or size that lacks moral universality – a *tiny* remnant.)
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I think there are more one-shot killers such as these but that will suffice.
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We can say it’s intuitively obvious that the Church just can’t work the way the sedes assert. If personal heresy (judged authoritatively by a third-party individual) were enough to deprive a pope of his ecclesiastical office (or prevent him from obtaining it), no Catholic at any time in history would know if we had a pope or not and thus no Catholic in the world at any time or place could have ecclesiastical faith in anything the Church has ever taught as definitive. This point is intentionally reiterated for effect.
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God hasn’t given us a Church, perpetual, indefectible, and immaculate, the infallible Ark of Salvation, yet so ridiculously fragile and subject to individual whim as they imagine. It can’t have been meant to work that way and it does not work that way. Realizing how terrible this crisis of modernism is, seeing the Church bruised and bloodied, is indeed impetus for *exploring* notion such that the pontiffs who have ruled over this ruin were and are not truly popes. However, it simply is not possible to conclude so without embracing not only logical absurdities but material heresy as well.
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So, concluding that sedevacantism just doesn’t work, what’s a Catholic to do when faced with Popes who at least seem to undermine Catholic doctrine in their statements and practices, and even foist (but not authoratively) a new Rite of Mass upon the entire Roman Church designed to subjugate Catholic dogma so as to appeal to heretics? Fortunately, the answer to that query is essentially provided by the theologians and popes of old. The below is nothing but the barest of introductions to the subject.
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Sedevacantists like the papal bull Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio because they think it justifies their position. However, Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio speaks of *valid popes*: “the Roman Pontiff… who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the faith”. Here we have a veritable R&R proof-text, don’t we? We have a Supreme Pontiff telling us in a papal bull no less that the faithful should, indeed, “contradict” (resist) a pope who has “deviated from the faith”. Implicit in the statement is the notion that human beings must be willing to use their intellects to determine what is congruent with the defined, infallible Faith and what is not. He is to be resisted, but certainly there no justification for declaring him deposed.
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St. Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church: “We must point out, besides, that the faithful can certainly distinguish a true prophet (teacher) from a false one, by the rule that we have laid down, but for all that, if the pastor is a bishop, they cannot depose him and put another in his place [recognize]. For Our Lord and the Apostles only lay down that false prophets are not to be listened to by the people [resist], and not that they depose them [recognize]. And it is certain that the practice of the Church has always been that heretical bishops be deposed by bishop’s councils, or by the Sovereign Pontiff” (from De Membris Ecclesiae, as quoted in True Or False Pope, pp 645-646; bracketed portions are from True of False Pope). So, the sedes’ go-to theologian tells us that false prophets are “not to be listened to” *and* specifically that they “not depose him”.
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Pope Adrian II: “It is true that Honorius was posthumumously anathematised by the Eastern churches, but it must be borne in mind that he had been accused of heresy, *the only offense which renders lawful the resistance of subordinates to their superiors, and their rejection of the latter’s pernicious teachings*” (Cited by Billot, Tractatus de Ecclesia Christi, as quoted in True or False Pope, pp 647, emphasis mine).
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The canon Si Papa, part of canon law for around eight centuries, says this: “Let no mortal man presume to accuse the Pope of fault, for, it being incumbent upon him to judge all, he should be judged by no one, unless he is suddenly caught deviating from the faith.” (This quote is sometimes attributed directly to Pope Innocent III; it is likely not his, but clearly reflects not just theological opinion but Church law. It is also used by sedevacantists themselves to justify individuals’ formal separation from/deposition of a pontiff, but it clearly justifies no such thing.)
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Of course, there are many more such quotations, from theologians including Aquinas, that could be brought to bear.
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These teachings of the theologians and papal Magisterium are congruent with what the Magisterium teaching about itself, in that it is the Deposit of Faith that is the primary rule of faith, with the Magisterium secondary. The secondary Rule cannot contradict the primary without losing its essence and validity. Aquinas: “We believe the successors of the apostles only in so far as they tell us those things which the apostles and prophets have left in their writings” (De Veritate, as quotes in True or False Pope, pp 648). Aquinas points out that it is the virtue of Faith that allows Catholics to sense error – Catholics have the blessing of the Church as Mother and Teacher, but, especially in abnormal times, no Catholic can leave himself without the benefit of both his intellect and the enlightenment of the Holy Ghost.
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This post is intended to be as brief, given the venue. I recognize that references are not provided consistently. If you’d like to challenge any particular point, please go ahead, and I will respond with more detail and references.
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Finally, for a thorough demonstration on how the leaders of the sedevacantist movement have completely and absolutely failed to meaningfully engage, much less refute, Salza & Siscoe’s new work, have a look here:
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http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/sedevacantist-watch.html
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There are many, even among clergy–need I also say in NY–that live that lifestyle now with no apology but with ‘pride’. For those who are converted to Christ and His Gospel such a past is to our shame and we spend the rest of life in atonement as Michael has done. Some of the greatest saints were once the greatest sinners; there are many examples.
Our society teaches, promotes, and protects sodomy. There will be countless more who fall into the sexual confusion or don’t know their gender, etc. Forgives is there for all who repent.
You’re right. The burden of proof is on Voris. And given everything we’ve seen surrounding the Archdiocese, which includes pressure and blackmail within the Archdiocese itself over various scandals, including against victims of their own stupidity and cover-ups, that they will go after Voris is wholly consistent with their modus operandi over the past few decades.
Voris’ problems with the SSPX are a wholly separate issue.
For someone who isn’t a fan of the novus ordo Church you sure swallow their corporate press PR denials pretty easily.
Voris says he has legitimate sources, and he’s proven that he has had the good considering all that’s he’s dug up within the Archdiocese itself, which even the Secular media is picking up on thanks to his work. So thus far his credibility as far as its related to the inner workings of the Archdiocese is concerned is pretty darn good.
It really looks like you’re reaching as far out as possible to spread FUD about Voris.
“you’re a hero for being gay and coming out”
– Except Voris at no time ever did this, nor could he now be accused of ‘coming out’ given that he in no way identifies himself at all with the labels typical of the ‘coming out’ crowd.
“you’re a hero for being gay and chaste”
– Except Voris doesn’t identify himself as being the the same category of those who are labelled ‘gay’ but chaste.
The fact that Voris felt a need to air his past laundry openly here seems to be that he was convinced that the Archdiocese was indeed out to get him. Yes, it is also obviously a move to counter any possible damage being brought against him, but this is not the sort of move one wishes to take unless he was certain that such laundry was going to be aired by another party to undermine him, and thus he took the bull by the horns here to control ad contextualize the message before it got loose. No doubt also a part of his media training. But no doubt also something that is extremely uncomfortable for anyone to do particularly when it involves one’s past self.
I don’t know where you get off with accusing someone else of ‘histronics and false-charity’, but for someone intent on making it look as if Voris has the burden of proof on him to prove the Archdiocese is out to gethim, you sure don’t think twice about accusing Voris of histronics and false-charity and accusing him underhandedly of false-witness when you’ve got no facts whatsoever to back yourself up.
“The fact that Voris felt a need to air his past laundry openly here seems to be that he was convinced that the Archdiocese was indeed out to get him.” -Johnno
“Was” convinced? Not “is”? I thought so.
Please tell Michael, unless he has hard evidence, I’m not buying it.
His sodomite lifestyle etc, that’s up to him and God. Not us.
I just notice how easy it is for Michael to come up with something and just pin the tail on the Church donkey. In this case he pinned it on ADNY. Here again, nothing adds up except for his ratings.
The wiser folks, have not commented on this issue, since, there is More to this than meets the eye. Before everyone starts saying “how brave!” “That’s telling the archdiocese!” “Give it to em Michael!” “You sure swung it at the archdiocese before they started attacking you Michael! Good move!”
There are always two sides to a coin. Prudence and widsom.
I pray for Michael Voris.
“don’t know their gender,” Please tell me you haven’t bought in to that deranged horse s%$t?
To GMU: You have to imagine that this type of public confession is difficult to execute because it opens oneself up to harsh criticism from people like yourself. In this case I think things have been handed correctly and it works for the good on a number of levels.
First of all, no one is harmed in New York. No one is named and the Bishop can always issue a denial. MV took a risk in naming the archdiocese because if they are guilty they will never admit it. So I have to assume that he knows what he is doing here and besides, people like you would really be screaming “gay victim soul” if he gave no reason for doing it.
It also works morally and politically because he really goes out of his way to proclaim the evils of sodomy or being gay and this attacks the current gay glorifying zeitgeist. Homosexuals are not born that way. They must repent. This is an important consequence, unintended or not, of a confession like this.
Voris has been systematically lying to everyone regarding the SSPX’s situation, accusing the SSPX of schism and false sacraments, without a shred of evidence.
Why would anyone believe his new accusation against the Archdiocese, here again, without any evidence to support it? Just because he said a few sins from his past?
I fear there is something more sinister behind all of this. We are only seeing one side of the coin.
Conspiracy theories, there are many, the CNS editor-in-chief last week’s forced resignation, a botched long-lost “friendship”, drop in CMTV’s “ratings”, who knows.
The truth is many are not buying into this at face-value.
Fr. Paul Nicholson, as much as I loath the guy, knows more to this than we are lead to believe.
All I’m saying is something is rotten in Denmark. Time will tell.
Let’s just not go saying “Yes Michael! You let the Archdiocese have it! Good thing you hit em first before the Archdiocese destroyed your reputation!” etc. etc etc….
My family and I are praying for Michael Voris.
You complain about others’ lack of evidence, where’s yours? You don’t have any. Just a lot of theories which you rant and rave about because you don’t like what MV says about the SSPX. The SSPX and Michael Voris will be fine, God disposing as He wills, but I agree with you, time will tell.
I suggest we all leave a comment on his site, beneath the video. This is a great moment for the Faithful to celebrate what MERCY ACTUALLY IS! A great counter-attack to the tale of false mercy reigning this day.
The ironic thing is Vox, it is the laity who attend the SSPX/Resistance masses who are banned from commenting on CMTV’s site. It is the same laity which CMTV condemns who has been morally supporting Michael Voris through his two-day “ordeal”. Contrary to popular belief, we are praying for Michael Voris and at the same time, we defend Christ.
“It’s especially ironic that the SSPX would say that the Novus Ordo Mass is an offense against God when you stop to consider the extremely grave and serious point that every single SSPX priest and bishop is committing a mortal sin when he offers Mass… It’s the “Non serviam!” of Satan offering Mass in reparation for his own sin of disobedience.”
-Michael Voris September 16 2015
I don’t believe most of the anti-SSPX crowd are acting maliciously, but only mis-guidedly, somewhat like when weak and clueless parents defend their misbehaving children rather than correcting them. They want to defend their misbehaving Churchmen rather than doing the hard work of chastising. The definition of mortal sin includes “full knowledge” so I hope most of the people I note are operating out of ignorance. The neo-Catholic speakers and writers, converts, reverts etc, all with books, CD’s and tapes and TV slots to sell have successfully arrived on the top floor of Catholic Church Inc., and so there’s no more work to be done; they are resting where they are; everything looks just ducky. He is going to defend the Pope automatically because that’s what “good” Catholics have always done and can’t imagine a world where the Pope is a heretic intent on destroying the Church – it just doesn’t compute into his pre-determined thought patterns that anything is seriously wrong in the Church he’s been defending all his life. Lazy Catholic too s defend a heretic Pope/Cardinal/bishop/priest because they are clueless about Scripture and authentic tradition, and its not nice to call them names like “brood of vipers.” If they do suspect something is wrong they just don’t care to find out what or why because then they might be compelled to do something. Its easier for them to take the stand much like those who say “my country – right or wrong!” – who sound as ridiculous as if they said “my mother – drunk or sober! ” There’s an element among the people of the Church who will defend evil in the Church saying “my Church, weeds and wheat!” as if we don’t have the right to prevent weeds from getting into the Church in the first place.
GMU–good point. Perhaps it is time for Voris to examine his own behavior toward the SSPX. He has been extremely uncharitable toward the SSPX and those who attend their churches/chapels. (I know many Catholics who were called heretics and that they were bringing souls to hell!!!) Apparently, he doesn’t like being on the receiving end of such behavior. I hope this situation causes him to re-examine the terrible behavior!
Right. On. Brother.
I am a father of seven. Four of them boys.
Knowing what we know now about MV, would you trust an all-boys apostolate to a homosexual who actively engaged (that we know of)in that sinful life for 15-years?
Bluntly: Would you send you sons here knowing what you know now?
(This is a good way to take the pulse of the mindset of today’s traditional Catholics)
I quote from CMTV’s site:
St. Michael’s Media
“Lord Jesus, use us to save souls, keep us always faithful to Your commandments, and
never let me be parted from you.”
Saint Michael’s Media is an effort to bring the new evangelization and the lay apostolate to the new media, and to embody the spiritual works of mercy of instructing the ignorant, admonishing the sinner, and teaching the Catholic faith. Our work is dedicated to saving our own souls by making ourselves available to Our Blessed Lord to be used to help save other souls. It is in this spirit that we want to share our apostolic work with young men (18-25 years of age, with minimum of a high school degree) still discerning how they might best serve Christ and His Church, as they seek to respond to the call of the Holy Spirit in their lives (emphasis on, but not limited to, former seminarians and those currently discerning).
So, we are embarking on a new endeavor we call PAUSE: a twelve-month program, structured roughly around a traditional academic calendar in which candidates learn deeply about the Catholic Faith by taking a “pause” from their current life circumstances and come to pray/discern/study/work/live with other like-minded individuals who desire to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit, and how best to serve the Church.
The program is directed toward young men who feel a deep desire to be at the service of the Church in this current time of Her great need, but who may not have had the opportunity to discern exactly how they can best do this, whether through a religious vocation, a vocation to marriage, or a dedication to the life of lay consecrated celibacy.
SPIRITUAL WORK
In response to the Holy Father’s urgent and repeated calls for a New Evangelization,* and his desire that the tools of modern social communications be employed to their fullest, St. Michael’s Media has dedicated itself to a rigorous defense and promotion of the Holy Catholic Faith using precisely these means. All candidates will be very exposed to this work and undergo training for full incorporation into the daily public work in which we are engaged.
Discerners will live in close contact with laymen who have dedicated themselves to apostolic celibacy at the service of the apostolate and at the service of Holy Mother Church.
Application Process:
Phase I:
Initial online application/Inquiry (basic info/demographics/questionnaire)
Objective Statement / Submission of a simple video (Why am I interested? (100 words; 2 minutes)
“Bluntly: Would you send you sons here knowing what you know now?”
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Not in a million years.
Nor for a million dollars.
Randy Engel’s book “St. Peter Damian’s Book of Gomorrah” taught me a lot on this subject.
http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/articles/damian1.htm
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But I am praying for Mr. Voris and hope the best for him.
And, yes, I know he has a LONG way to go to get where Louie is in his proclamation of ALL of the truth.
And, yes, I agree, GMU, that he should not have an apostolate for “young men (18-25 years of age).”
But I do not agree that you should call Mr. Voris “a homosexual” when you are making your points. He is a man who has sinned, has made his confession, and has changed his life, so he should not be labeled a “homosexual.”
However, this PARTICULAR past sin must exclude him from an “apostolate” for young men, as you point out.
You really have to give it up and get some new material. Im sure dolan and francis appreciate your support.
You can spam this site another 1000 times with the same post, its not going to make the vatican 2 church any more Catholic.
NY Archdiocese denies allegations re MV:
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/04/22/new-york-archdiocese-denies-allegation-that-it-sought-to-smear-michael-voris/
There may be some truth in this for the following reasons:
It would go against Francis’ “Who am I to judge?” mentality.
It would insult the NY gay community which is very powerful.
It would insult clergymen who are themselves homosexual (What’s wrong with being homosexual anyway???)
There might be more to this than meets the eye.
Im not a supporter of Voris in really any way, but I’d trust his word over that of any diocese in a heartbeat. Unlike some here, I would never give them (v2 dioceses) the benefit of the doubt.
rich–I don’t doubt that the NY Diocese is out to get Voris. I think they will find ways of doing this in a very sneaky manner.
Those bringing up Voris’ past sins simply for self-gain and for the sake of knocking him down are sinning, probably gravely.
At the same time though, those who would entrust their youth to him have a right to know.
(CMTV has the young man PAUSE program)
Homosexuality is a sin that can be forgiven. But it is also a mental disorder from which the young must be protected. It’s not safe to trust anyone who we know to have any sort of sexual perversion with children or youngsters.
We would undoubtedly and without hesitation act the same way towards a repentant ephebophile/homosexual priest. His sins are forgotten without a doubt, however no parent in their right mind would let their young ones hang out with him.
As it stands right now most Catholics are forced into into an almost Protestant “once saved always saved” position. I got news for you guys: forgiveness does not mean we need to grant him license to keep doing what he’s doing or forgo the appropriate and necessary response to these revelations. There are consequences that he has refused to accept as part of his past sins, namely that he has no place leading any religious discussions, or leading any kind of lay apostolate which grants him a position of authority. In an ideal situation, the local Bishop would insist he step down and remove himself from all self-appointed positions of influence. But we don’t have that luxury.
Do your due diligence.
Surely, we all agree on my statement.
PLEASE SIGN PETITION TO BOYCOTT TARGET UNTIL THEY PROTECT WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN THEIR BATHROOMS BY NOT ALLOWING MEN INTO THE WOMEN’S BATHROOM! PLEASE FORWARD TO ALL THE PEOPLE YOU KNOW! IT IS TIME TO STAND UP TO THIS MADNESS!!!
https://www.afa.net/action-alerts/sign-the-boycott-target-pledge/
It’s quite uncomfortable watching all the emotional, imprudent, and falsy-charitable comments supporting Mr. Voris.
As of right now he’s the only person to make any accusations or claims. Accusations and claims on the authority of unnamed and anonymous sources.
In people’s race to take part in Voris’ “courage” they seem to be missing this fact.
Dear Louie, I would just like to register my support for the very gracious way you responded to the situation of Michael Voris. Like many others I acknowledge the great good that Michael has done, in fact, his earlier work was a great help to me and many others, as I started on this path of recovery Catholic tradition. Even though I disagreed with CM’s strategic position of not addressing the grave issues surrounding this disastrous papacy, and the aggressive and unbalanced criticism of the SSPX, I never doubted his sincere love and desire to defend the Catholic Faith. This crisis which tears at the Papacy has resulted in such fragmentation among sincere Catholics as to the proper way to respond. Such is the nature of the toxin that has afflicted the Church.
Finally, I must say I was rather surprised by Chris Ferrara’s response to Michael Voris’ situation as posted on 1Peter5. He took a rather cynical line, was ungracious to the man verging on the vindictive. No matter how vigorously we may disagree on very important issues, still, surely even at the human level we must feel pity at seeing someone having to abase themselves so publicly, and at the supernatural level be glad to see someone rescued from a life of sin and embrace the Faith anew.
Quoting “Greg” from a Traditional Catholic Forum:
“This is my objection to him continuing to be the public face of CMTV.
1. I doubt his repentance is sincere or at least fully “dealt with”
a. 20 years of sodomy from 25-44 is a very long time and a very conscious adult decision.
b. He didn’t admit his past until 10 years into his apostolate.
c. Homosexuals are master manipulators and liars and he is a media savvy homosexual. That means he has ALL of the tools to fool people and elicit their sympathy. Of all the candidates who could look sincere but be insincere Voris would have to be one of the most qualified.
d. The dates on his conversion story don’t wash with the story.
2. Where’s the humility? A semi-intelligent look at the Traditional Catholic position would at the very least have to acknowledge the debt of gratitude the conservative camp owed to the SSPX Society. Without which modernism would have triumphed 30 years ago. Without the SSPX there is a very real chance that Voris would be a practicing sodomite today in good standing at his local rainbow parish because the church of old would be resigned to the dustbin of history.
If you are sincere in your repentance you should at least be humbled by your 20 years of sodomy and departure from the sacraments that you would be very cautious about judging and condemning those who had been holding the fort while you were AWOL and buggering men. You don’t appear in the Vineyard at two thirty and start calling the other workers who have been there since dawn “Spiritual Pornographers”.
I’m not an SV nor a Russian Orthodox but I’d show those people the respect they have earned. Especially if I was late to the Vineyard!!!
3. He not merely speaking about the faith. He’s very actively teaching and preachin it. He’s lay’s down what he believes is “the law”. Furthermore things like retreat Cruises and gathering men aged 18-25 together in a house are near occasions of sin for a former sodomite. Retreats are really entering into the realm of the clergy. Laypeople are on thin ice here.
Discerning men’s vocations? Gathering them together in a house? Surely a former sodomite who has a mature understanding of his sin and he weakness would not touch this idea with a 10 foot pole. Even if he is completely free of is lust (unlikely), how does it look to others if his 20 years of sodomy is then revealed.
As a thought experiment, Let’s assume two Catholic men fathers of large families who have grown up, devout Catholics who have never lapsed decide to start a mission. The mission is to visit the stage door of pole dancing clubs and mission to the Puerto Rican and Mexican dancers to see if they can get them to change careers.
Most Catholics with good common sense would think this was really risky and a near occasion of sin. But they seem to be good at it and are having some success at getting the girls to quit and get other moral jobs.
Now pretend that one of those say 60 year old men had an arrest record for being a pepping Tom when he was 16 years old in 1972. A single occurrence. At that stage the whole equation changes. Not particularly because you think a 44 year old arrest record makes him significantly more of a threat but because you know that even the a slight charge like that can be manipulated and do more harm through scandal than the good the two of them can do.
Voris doesn’t have a youthful indiscretion. He has an extremely sordid past. If he was truly sorry he would be very very alert to the scandal he could cause through these retreats and his utterly mad and dangerous “Pause” idea of gathering 18-25 year old men together.”
“Finally, I must say I was rather surprised by Chris Ferrara’s response to Michael Voris’ situation as posted on 1Peter5. He took a rather cynical line, was ungracious to the man verging on the vindictive. No matter how vigorously we may disagree on very important issues, still, surely even at the human level we must feel pity at seeing someone having to abase themselves so publicly, and at the supernatural level be glad to see someone rescued from a life of sin and embrace the Faith anew”
The opposite is true (by the way anyone if Voris has released any evidence on his very serious charge against New York Archdiocese?) Mr. Ferrara is the one (and possibly Michael Matt, John Venarri and others who have no jumped on the bandwagon of denouncing NYAD and canonized Voris) who has a cool head and respects the objective truth rather than emotional one sided unsubstantiated serious accusation. What is the objective truth that everyone including Voris can agree on? That is he has either changed his mind or made it clear when before his position was not clear before, that he is a faithful supporter of the diabolical disorientation of Vatican II. There is no dispute on that one. After he changed his mind and started attacking The Remnant (why is not tears from those fans of Voris there was huge drop on subscribers of the oldest traditional newspaper in the country and Chris Ferrara has to appeal for donation so many of us besides being subscribers start giving monthly support) and all traditional Catholic medias who oppose the teachings of Vatican II documents. So the bottom lines are these two questions
1) Is Voris not a heretic if he supports Vatican II (please if anyone has any doubt go to their web site there is an article challenging anyone can find error in any of the Vatican II documents. of course the challenge does not allow you to actually challenge them all the interns would delete any comments not praising Vatican II)?
2) Does his public confession of a past personal sin on the 6th commandment make him a non heretic?
3)If he refuses to provide evidence to support his public accusation against NYAD, would you consider him at least a suspect of Calumny against the Holy Church and one of the successors of the Holy Apostles?
God Bless!
“There might be more to this than meets the eye.” Well we should all withhold our judgment on that one till having a chance to examine the evidence Voris will provide (I assume).
You assume?
I don’t think he’ll provide the “evidence”.
Someone will provide it for him…. He just found the way to come out of the closet in such a fashion where the vast majority of “trads” “support” him. No questions asked. Pause internship moves forward, 20+ years of sodomitic relationships are water under the bridge. Voris should follow St. Mary of Egypt’s way of true repentance from an almost 20 year publicly sinful lifestyle. But of course, he won’t. There is the underlying agenda…Oh yeah, “Beating the devil to the punch!”
Even novus ordo clerics, once they have been outed, they resign by their own free will. Homosexual lifestyles of 5-10 years, and these clerics resign, ashamed, out of the public eye, and live a life of repentance.
Voris, of course, living 20+ years in a homosexual lifestyle, thinks he’s teflon.
He repented (says he), waits one year (says he) and starts his “apostolate”…
He waits 10 years to come out of the closet, of course saying he regrets his past, pins his coming out due to an alleged possible conspiracy by the archdiocese of NY and shrugs it off.
The incredible part is many Catholics are swallowing this act wholesale.
“Well done Michael!” “You sure beat the archdiocese!” “Year of mercy!” “Mercy mercy!”
Please! people, it is not about a sexual sin committed by Voris. I wish Louie just keep the original name of the blog. It is about Vatican II’s heresies. All else is distraction! Vatican II Catholics are not aka Catholics, they are heretics. As bad as Sodomy is, a sin crying out the heaven for vengeance, a Sodomite is not outside of the Church but a heretic is. Voris is a Vatican II Catholic as he is proudly identifying himself now so he is a heretic therefore a non Catholic. Nobody’s soul is damaged by his old sin of Sodomy but souls are led to hell by his preaching of heresies of Vatican II.
You nailed it all along with your comments, but with this last one, I had to reply. I agree 100% with every word you have printed. I left a message earlier but I had no idea of the scope of his past mistakes and I didn’t know about his young men apostolate. No, no, no, that is unacceptable. And you are right about most of the understanding coming from the SSPX parishoners. I am one too, and I have been blocked from Voris’ site for a long time. After reading everything you have revealed, I would say he should just resign or shut down his apostolate. Let him do his penance as a private person like the rest of us. No one with such an unnatural past should be preaching anyway, much less gathering young men together. His 20 year past, his ill treatment of the SSPX, and the rancour behind it, might be why God has allowed all of this to come out.
My family is praying for him also, but I thank God that all of this did come out. I can’t understand why he thought he could pull this off?
GMU & Danielpan —-
This link supports all that you have said.
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http://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/B873_Voris.html
Thanks, Servant of Our Lady! It is a well written and objective piece, especially on the proper penance the Church recommends for Sodomites. I ‘ve learned a lot from fellow Traditional aka Catholics. I do pray that first of all God would grant Voris to cooperate with His Grace and become a Traditional aka Catholic first so he might avoid eternal damnation. God Bless!