A video recently surfaced in which Pope Francis extends a greeting, roughly seven minutes in length, to attendees of the Kenneth Copeland Ministries Conference (KCMC), a gathering of Pentecostal “ministers” from all over the United States.
A 45 minute video, wherein KCMC attendees are shown the pope’s message (at the 31:40 mark), is available here for those who may wish to view it in its entirety, otherwise, relevant excerpts are given below. (Note: You may need to give them a moment to load.)
Here’s the background: In a private meeting last month with Tony Palmer (a “bishop” and founder of the Ark Community, which describes itself as an “an internet-based, Inter-denominational Christian Convergent Community, drawing our spirituality from the ‘Early Church’”), the Holy Father volunteered to send a video greeting to the KCMC.
Palmer, who has been friends with the former Cardinal Bergoglio for years, used his iPhone to record the papal greeting; a message that is personal, heartfelt and sincere.
It’s also confusing, a danger to souls, and utterly irresponsible.
Yes, you heard and read correctly; the Roman Pontiff referred to a manifest heretic, in a video that he undoubtedly knew would be disseminated worldwide, as mio vescovo fratello, “my brother bishop!”
Now, let’s meet Mr. Palmer.
In the following clip, he is describing for KCMC attendees the dilemma that he faced in the 1990’s in not knowing where to direct his wife’s family in Italy for “fellowship” upon bringing them to Christ.
If Tony Palmer, a man who not only rejects multiple dogmas of the one true Faith, but who also believes that the Catholic Church is where Christians go to have their faith killed, is a “brother bishop,” what does that make the bishops of the Society of St. Pius X?
If you don’t know, I’ll tell you: In this case, it makes them more Catholic than the pope, as I can assure you not one of them would ever confuse Mr. Palmer for the Roman Pontiff’s “brother bishop.”
The hypocrisy is eminently obvious.
This pope has had precious little to say to traditional Catholics beyond name-calling and criticism, even going so far as to belittle their spiritual offerings, but like a father who showers his neighbor’s children with praise while denigrating his very own, for the heretics, it’s all group hugs and blessings.
Beyond simply being unconscionable in the most obvious sense, this love affair with heretics presents a grave danger to their souls. Even so, the neo-con Catholics and their under-nourished minions think this latest… let’s call it a Francumenical gesture, is positively delightful.
Writing for First Things, Dale Coulter made the following rosy prediction:
There is a way forward together. It’s not easy. But it may just be that we need a man who embodies the spirit of Francis of Assisi … Once again Pope Francis has pointed us toward a future bright with possibility.
What Pope Francis and his ecumeniacal cheerleaders obviously fail to realize is that the only thing this warm-and-fuzzy movement has ever had to offer anyone, in spite of whatever pseudo-homogenous associations and activities its practitioners might create moving forward, is dialogue, empty apologies, and even emptier embraces.
This misguided train, in other words, has already arrived at its final destination; mission accomplished.
The only real “future bright with possibility” to be had lies in the conversion of heretics to the Holy Roman Catholic Church. That’s it. Thanks to the comforting reassurances offered by the pope, however, the only call these perishing souls perceive is an invitation to embrace the false premise that their own unity in the one true Church of Christ is already a present reality; the life-giving truth that is Catholic doctrine be damned.
Clearly some of these heretics seem to understand, even if only intuitively, that the pope’s approval is something of value. They’re simply reacting to the fact that he’s freely giving it.
The point of the new, decidedly false, ecumenism practiced since Vatican II, and shifted into high gear by the current pope, has nothing whatsoever to do with seeking conversions; rather, it has everything to do with promoting convergence.
According to the Ark Community website, the group considers itself “convergent” because “We acknowledge, celebrate and combine all the Christian Streams, blending them into ONE unified Christian experience.”
In other words, when it comes to Francumenism, Tony Palmer gets it.
To the KCMC attendees’ credit, under the leadership of Kenneth Copeland himself, they even generously answered the pope’s plea:
“Please pray for me, because I need your prayers. And I will pray for you, I will do it, but I need your prayers. And let us pray to the Lord that He unites us all. Come on, we are brothers.”
(Hopefully, His Holiness understands holy goblin gobbledygook.)
In any event, I conclude with the following question:
I wonder how Pope Francis, the Bishop of Rome who longs for “a poor Church for the poor,” feels about this final video clip?
We are witnessing the utter destruction of the Church. This Pope, if left unchecked, will finish what Vatican two started. The completion of the reformation. Save for the remnant communities which hold to the tradition of the totality of the Church, no one will be left who has not been infected. George Wiegel must be loving this. And satan is laughing.
Louie, this is getting really scary now, what should we do in addition to prayer and fasting?
”Oh yeah” indeed…
This is awful.
For my own good, I try to ignore Pope Francis and most prelates when they open their mouths.
Oh my goodness! Brother “bishop”! How in the world is a protestant a descendant of the apostles? No valid ordination just for starters! But the Pope makes it seem like it makes no difference at all what anyone is–protestant, muslim, atheist, sodomite, etc.
How is this going to save souls? I can only have a dim hope that somehow all this is a ‘bait and switch’ and he will lure in tons of heretics and they will all want to be Catholic.
I resent the ‘spirit of St. Francis of Assisi’ thing: St. Francis was a radical Catholic!
What the heck is the matter with this pope?!
It’s crystal clear what the Princes of the Church has done since the miserable, pastoral Second Vatican Council. Day by day we see more evil coming to the ‘surface’ of the ‘master plan’, the intention……..massive destruction of the Catholic Faith.
We have been warned numerously by Our Blessed Lady at La Salette, at Lourdes, at Fatima. At La Salette she told us that ‘Rome will lose the truth and become the seat of the Antichrist.’ Our Lady gave to Sr. Lucia a third part of her message at Fatima, which was to be published in 1960……..it certainly spoke of a general apostasy.
IS THAT NOT WHAT WE ARE WITNESSING TODAY?
…..Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Econe 1988
…..”We must reject Modernist Rome as it pursues its course of destroying the Faith and Christianity. It is our daily duty to repudiate it by attaching ourselves to the eternal Rome, proclaiming more than ever the need for the Reign of Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Holy Mother, Mary Our Queen.
To bring about the coming of this Reign, we need Bishops, we need priests and religious who have but one name on their lips, and one love in their hearts: that of Our Lord Jesus Christ.”
…..The Mysteries of the Holy Rosary…..offered for the fortification of Priests….we pray…..
Annunciation…..For saintly Priests.
Visitation……….For unworldly Priests.
Nativity………….For pure Priests.
Presentation…..For worthy Priests
Finding………….For Priests who love the Eucharist.
Agony…………..To help Priests see the enemy clearly.
Scourging………To aid Priests who are suffering.
Crowning……….To aid Priests who are scandalized.
Carrying………..To aid Priests with heavy burdens.
Crucifixion……..To gain Priestly perseverance.
Resurrection…..To help Priests to glory only in Christ.
Ascension……..To help Priests to hope only in Christ.
Pentecost…….. That Priests be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Assumption……That Priests may lead us to Mary.
Coronation……..For an increase of holy Priests.
O Holy Ghost, Sanctifier, help those priests who are faithful to remain faithful!
I never knew until I read this post that I can cry and throw up at the same time.
Dear Jack Archer, you are not alone……..I cried too…….
Well – Mr Bergoglio is batting for team apostasy, even if as a useful idiot and not consciously complicit.
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Happily, we still have a Pope. Pray for Pope Emeritus Benedict.
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As Mark said, Louie, what does one do now? especially those of us who live in the wastelands of apostasy.
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I think Halina just answered my question with the Rosary intentions list.
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To Jesus through Mary; God keep all Faithful Catholics Faithful.
The pope is a heretic…plain and simple, because he rejects any notion of truth in matters of religion…or in other words, he is a card carrying modernist, relativst, and atheist….
Very grave times. We must keep the faith.
.
Paul
p.s. can I just add to the Rosary intentions a whole ‘nother intention: For priests who are sane.
I don’t mean to be disrespectful (well–maybe just a little) but Bergoglio is either evil or an idiot. In either case, we’re in BIG trouble!
I am getting so depressed at what the current Pope is doing and saying.
So many orthodox Catholics are trying to reinterpret and smooth over everything he does and tell us he is really great and he didn’t mean what he just said.
It’s not working. The attempts to cover up his gaffs are failing.
He really DID wash the feet of a woman at the Maundy service in contravention of liturgical rules.
He really DID say that we were too obsessed with abortion and homosexuality.
He really DID tell a group of Argentinian Communist activists, who he personally invited to the Vatican, to “Carry on.”
He really DID ditch his Vatican City passport, on which he is listed as Pope Francis, for his Argentinian passport where he is listed as Jorge Bergoglio.
He really DID tell a phony “bishop” Palmer that he was his brother, in spite of “Bishop” Palmer telling a large Pentecostal audience that he couldn’t possibly send his family to a Catholic Church because that would “kill their faith.”
And now just read what he has said as a prelude to the upcoming Synod on the Family – I won’t list it, do a search, but it is frightening stuff for any orthodox, traditionally minded Catholic.
I am worried just how much damage this one man can do.
dear Catholic Militant-the current Pontiff is an evil, stupid and ignorant man locked in the mid-’70’s. But we re not in big trouble. We are just doing what Catholics who are actually Catholic { which, BTW, the current Pontiff is not, } have always done, suffer.
That said, dear brethren,
happily— talks from the latest CFN Conference have been uploaded.
dear Mark especially, since you asked-
in addition to what Mr. V. may suggest to you-
It has been my experience that traditionalists often suffer from something prolifers suffer from-a very depleting form of-if you will- a certain “burnout.”
With this in mind dear brethren, may I suggest a listen to some of the above mentioned talks for edification , nourishment and refreshment. I suggest to begin with a description of the Benediictine rule described by beloved Fr. Cyprian in his own indescribable way here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Rv8SYMSUYg&list=PLtLZ3BcBezkK_QUvWqLvEl-4uBDNHpGjI
Next-the full talk by Mr. V.–here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X1sa8tf1mk&list=PLtLZ3BcBezkK_QUvWqLvEl-4uBDNHpGjI
Paul, Bergoglio the terminator and his cohoes already (‘scuse quoting JPII) have the seeds of their own destruction within them.
have a giggle at this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2562896/The-Holy-gust-Wind-whips-Popes-mantle-address-St-Peters-Square.html
God really has a great sense of humour.
p.s., I guess if he had gone for less ‘unfashionable’ duds his linen might have had more respect for him.
and the entire grouping here:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtLZ3BcBezkK_QUvWqLvEl-4uBDNHpGjI
Herein you will also find John Vennari’s treatise on the REAL St. Francis of Assisi–to further comfort you especially, dear Catholic Militant.
Peace be to you.
Bl. Jacinta, pray for us.
Archbishop LeFebvre, pray for us.
dear Saluto,
heh-heh, very good.
linda – the coffee on benedictine youtube – better to roast now than latter. heheh back at ya.
exactly– dear Saluto!!–this is what I’m talkling about re: refreshment, humor etc. Thank you and God love you.
What is most disturbing to me about this matter is that Kenneth Copeland ministries has been decried by almost all protestants as fringe and manipulative. This group has been around for years, preaching a “prosperity” gospel, living like the “bishops of bling,” and sucking the finances of vulnerable people with the promised results of “seed faith giving. For a Roman pontiff to identify with these folks is beyond comprehension.
But wait, there’s more!
.
It recently came to my attention that our Reformation-friendly pope actually pronounced the Protestant doctrine of imputed righteousness in a sermon back in June: http://ebougis.wordpress.com/2014/02/22/pope-icarus-alights/ . This may be old hat, though I don’t know how I missed it till, but it confirms my suspicion that his antics with Copeland & Co. were not at all off-the-cuff and of the Spirit of true unity.
Why are you all surprised and shocked? Where have you been? This is the first time I have seen this blog and I am surprised at your surprise…..
Where were you when JPII was dancing with Fire worshippers and kissing the Koran? What did you say when Benny 16 was worshipping with Jews and protestants?
Pope (Nope) Frank is a heretic (the story on this blog is a perfect example). If he is heretic, then he isn’t a Catholic. If he isn’t a Catholic, he can’t be Pope. Pretty simple, really.
Stop being so obsessed – the Sea is vacant, we have no pope, get with the real world. You should find yourself a traditional, independent, validly ordained priest, go to confession, try and receive the sacraments as often as possible, say your rosary and teach your kids the Faith. God will figure out the rest.
How do you solve a problem like Francesco? Don’t give him any oxygen.
“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
Rome is burning. 50 years of contradictory insanity is consuming itself in a conflagration of its own making.
Let it burn.
Saluto….. Pope Emeritus Benedict is one of the ‘clan’, he praised the Charismatic Insanity, and told them that THEY…….NOT THE TRADITIONAL CATHOLICS……..are the hope for the future of the Catholic Church………Miserere!
Please, listen below to the whole talk………
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5TwrG8B3ME
For more than fifty years the popes have been de facto employees of the United Religions Initiative (URI).
http://www.leepenn.org/FalseDawn.html
“The interfaith movement, which began with the 1893 World’s Parliament of Religions in Chicago, has grown worldwide. Although this movement has been largely unknown to the public, it now provides a spiritual face for globalization, the economic and political forces leading us all from nationalism to ‘One World’.
The most ambitious organization in today’s interfaith movement is the United Religions Initiative (URI), founded by William Swing, the Episcopal Bishop of California. Investigative reporter Lee Penn, a Catholic ex-Marxist, exhaustively documents the history and beliefs of the URI and its New Age and globalist allies, the vested interests that support these movements, and the direction they appear to be taking. The interfaith movement is no longer merely the province of a coterie of little-heeded religious idealists with grandiose visions. The URI’s proponents have ranged from billionaire George Soros to President George W. Bush, from the far-right Rev. Sun Myung Moon to the liberal Catholic theologian Hans Küng, and from the Dalai Lama to the leaders of government-approved Protestant churches in the People’s Republic of China.
The interfaith movement, including the URI, is being promoted by globalist and New Age reformers who favor erosion of national sovereignty, marginalization of traditional religions, establishment of ‘global governance’, and creation of a new, Earth-based ‘global spirituality’ – in effect, a one-world religion. Therefore, the URI and the interfaith movement are poised to become the spiritual foundation of the New World Order: the ‘new civilization’ now proposed by Mikhail Gorbachev, the last leader of the Soviet Union.”
Dear Linda–Thank you for your recommendation and link. I was fortunate and blessed to attend this conference. The presentations are wonderful and it is encouraging to know that we are not alone in the battle. Also, many of the speakers have done interviews for Voice of Catholic Tradition, including our own Mr. Louie V. Check it out on the archive: http://www.voiceofcatholicradio.com.
We are in the battle togeher and must stay firm. God is with us!!
@ saluto
Benedict won´t come to your rescue.
Two weeks ago he wrote a letter to his former (?) friend Hans Küng to tell him that he fully supports Pope Francis and that he is in accordance with most of Pope Francis´ views.
Hans Küng was very delighted because he has praised Pope Francis from the beginning.
http://www.katholisch.de/de/katholisch/themen/news/page_news.php?id=27850
Last year a German catholic newspaper reported that Benedict had said that he thinks he and Francis share “the same theology”.
Internally Bezerk, I cannot agree with your sedevacantism, and recommend you read Robert Siscoe and his treatment of papal error and being in the heart of the Church vs. being in the body of the Church.
With that said, you do raise one very valid point that needs to be recognized. Are Popes Benedict XVI, John Paul II, and Paul VI, and possibly even John XXIII, all that different from what we’re hearing from Pope Francis? I fear the difference is not that great, akin to a comparison of a bud with a full open flower.
Rodj, thanks for the comment. As an adult convert and one who has come through the SSPX to the SV position, I find it strange how traditional Catholics can condemn the Vatican II popes, but can’t bring themselves to say that they are heretics. So you cannot agree with my sedevacantism, but you also say that BXVI, JPII & PVI are not that different (inferring all bad) – that sounds like a dichotomy to me.
If you or I did what Francis did, we’d be excommunicated – it’s that simple. Our Faith is and should be a simple one. If you believe they are legitimate popes, then you must obey them. That means you should be going to the NO mass. All Catholics are subject to the pope, after all.
If however, you see the men who are masquerading as popes trying to lead the faithful to hell, then it’s pretty obvious that our enemies have succeeded to infiltrate the Church. It is illogical and goes against reason to try and be reconciled with a pope, and at the same time disobey and condemn him. If you believe he’s the pope, go to the NO mass. If you believe in the Truth, then keep a simple faith, say the rosary, pray for the restoration of the Church magisterium, and pay no attention to the ravings of an evil man. After all, do we pay any attention to what any other non-Catholic says about the faith?
dear Catholic Militant,
what else can I say but wonderful, wonderful and wonderful ! God love you. i hope more will visit the most genteel voices on Voice of Catholic Tradition also.
dear Internally_Berzerk,
well, we’re not exactly shocked and surprised.
We are actually nothing more than self-absorbed Promethean neo-Palagians, enslaved by a form of gnosticism – going around like querilous and disillusioned pessimists in the guise of Creed-reciting parrot Christians, making us worshipers of the god Narcissus.
Adapted from “The Pope Francis Little Book of Insults” on the blog-That the Bones You Have Crushed May Thrill
to which I am unable to link for some reason.
Bl. Francisco, pray for us.
Eminently obvious that Palmer is not a “brother bishop”. look up “obtuse” in the dictionary and you’ll see Bishop Bergoglio’s face next to it (but not from his Argentinian passport!).
As someone struggling with the current pope and the state of the Church over the last 50 years and trying to figure out what to do, can someone belonging to the SSPX respond to the last post of Internally Bezerk? Or provide a link that refutes his point? I’d be really tempted to join the SSPX but it seems completely illogical to say the Vatican II popes and magisterium are completely valid but we’re going to disobey them. How is that different from a liberal Catholic disobeying Humanae Vitae? Dissent is dissent is it not? Sedevacantism seems kinda like a fringe group but at least it’s logically consistent. People talk about Francis being a heretic, about Our Lady of LaSalette saying Rome will apostasize. If that is true, isn’t the See currently vacant or will be down the road?
What everybody has failed to mention is the One, World Religion Pope Pius X spoke of. Here we are. That’s what we’re looking at. Read the sainted Pontiff’s words carefully:
“And now, overwhelmed with the deepest sadness, We ask Ourselves, Venerable Brethren, what has become of the Catholicism of the Sillon? Alas! this organization which formerly afforded such promising expectations, this limpid and impetuous stream, has been harnessed in its course by the modern enemies of the Church, and is now no more than a miserable affluent of the great movement of apostasy being organized in every country for the establishment of a One-World Church which shall have neither dogmas, nor hierarchy, neither discipline for the mind, nor curb for the passions, and which, under the pretext of freedom and human dignity, would bring back to the world (if such a Church could overcome) the reign of legalized cunning and force, and the oppression of the weak, and of all those who toil and suffer. We know only too well the dark workshops in which are elaborated these mischievous doctrines which ought not to seduce clear-thinking minds.”
It shall not “neither dogmas.” The current Pontiff (Right? Are you SURE, absolutely SURE Benedict the Beloved (my name for him) was not forced out. After all, there were rumors of death threats 12 months to the month before he abdicated). As I was saying, the current Pontiff undermines dogma every chance he gets, you know the “doctrinal security” and all that. He says we have to have room for doubt. So instead of preaching the dogma and teachings of the Church, he preaches near Protestantized senitmental nonsense (read and watch him carefully) and takes to treating his flock like kindergartners.
“Nor hierarchy.” Watch and see. This is collegiality, which is an error and totally false. The Bishops get their Authority from the Supreme Pontiff. The Pope gets His Authority from God. It’s as simple as that. The Pope can’t just give his Authority away and allow the Bishops to do as they please. That will result in complete chaos. No two Bishops believe the same Catholic Faith today. In Germany, they’re heretics, allowing birth control which is nothing more than murder in the womb. Our Lord Jesus Christ established a hierarchical Church. There is and always will be a chain of command. That chain can’t be broken.
In other words, this will be a Church of apostasy. The Pope doesn’t condemn the sins of the flesh. They’re left freely unabated. All this Pope is concerned about is patting the Protestants and pagans on the back on their way to hell. If this isn’t the One, World Religion I don’t know what is. He doesn’t believe the Catholic Church is the true Church. He unashamedly calls a protestant a “brother bishop.” He isn’t a Bishop, a Successor of the Apostles. They’re Protestant heretics. Luther must be laughing in his grave at the sight of this. This is the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church. Did he ever say they need to convert? Does he not get it that Our Lord Jesus Christ DIED to establish the Church to save us? That’s enough of this “finding things in common” and “dialoguing” crap. We’re talking about the salvation of souls here. The Pope is the most powerful man on earth, for it is he who holds the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and he’s locked the door for 50 years! He holds the keys to the treasure, the Catholic Church, and instead he wants everyone to be stuck with their filth, Protestant religions.
Our Lord isn’t pleased. The Pope needs to understand that he will BE JUDGED by what he does and doesn’t do. Woe to him if he doesn’t preach the True Faith and pass it on undefiled! Woe to him if he turns the Roman Catholic Church into a humanitarian organization! Woe to him if he fails to convert heretics to the True Faith, without which they can’t be saved! Woe!
Satan is attempting to destroy the very foundation of the Church, the Papacy. Pray and pray like you’ve never prayed before. This is a battle of life and death, good and evil, the children of the Church and the children of the devil.
So ends my rant. Pray for the Holy Father, that he will convert to the True Faith, before it’s too late.
dear Peter,
the talks by Fr. Hesse- SSPX priest and canon lawyer, now deceased, are available readily youtube. The man spoke in a no nonsense way and with great clarity & detail.
Also I recommend you go to Defeat Modernism site, and go through all they offer. I think you might be edified by the information there. {non-sede}
Please keep returning here. We are your friends, we wish to help you. We are not perfect. The crisis is not new, and we are, as are you, in many ways the walking wounded.
Also, and perhaps not in this order, may I suggest going to blogtalk radio and listen to a show which Colleen Hammond hosted before the talks with SSPX and Rome fell. This 2-hour show features SSPX experts and faithful and also Mr. V. speaks at length.
Of course, there is the new DVD treatise on the life of Lefebvre, which fills in many blanks about which many are ignorant. It is so utterly necessary for a sufficient comprehensive understanding of what actually took place surrounding the early SSPX , that I think this would be crucial for you to view.
Perhaps this response does not exactly target yourquestion, but it’s just my input.
Keep in touch.
Although the Defeat Modernism site has some good info and links, I resent the fact that they hold a grudge against the FSSP. The devil just loves the internecine conflict between traditional catholics, it allows him all the more easily to continue with his “demolition of the bastions” as I believed B XVI put it.
dear Edu,
oh, I absolutely see your point. If I may say, I think one also has to have a complete and comprehensive education on exactly what occured at the inception of the FSSP. Most do not.
I think DM does fail to clarify the reasons they make the statements they do and for this reason can confuse the already confused.
Whereas
Fr. Hesse’s detailed overview does go deep into FSSP issues.
Of course outstanding is compelled acceptance they must make to state the NO Mass is integral and is not a departure from Catholic orthodoxy. But not the only problem. I have a deep seated empathy and love for FSSP clergy.
I agree satan loves nothing more than dividing. Granted. But, as Lefebvre stated so often, it’s not only about the Mass. And this cannot be overstated.
The name calling of the Pope is disgraceful here. I watched that video too – and couldn’t stand it, it gave me the creeps so I understand the upset. However, attacking the person of the Pope is not Catholic and lessens our natural Catholic piety towards a holy office installed by Our Blessed Lord Himself. I know I don’t much “like” our present Pope either. So what? He is still the Pope – and NOONE here has the competence nor the authority to say that he isn’t. This is for someone qualified in the matter to proclaim.
All I know is that this personal attack thing doesn’t help anyone..anywhere in these grave times for the Church..sticking to facts and principals ( even with irony)is the correct way to criticise in my view…
Thanks to you, Louie, for this website, and to you, “linda zentne” for the Fr. Hesse youtube recommendation.
Just viewed his 10 minute video on why he is NOT a sedevacanist and it made sense. In a nutshell…He basically drew a distinction between the human aspects of the papacy–i.e. what the individual man occupying the Chair of St. Peter brings as his life experiences–and the divine aspects of the office, drawing an analogy between the two natures of Christ. He then when on to state the distinction between material and formal heresy…how a pope may be in material heresy with certain teachings (which Fr. Hesse acknowleged has happened and was happening during the pontificate of JPII when Fr. Hesse was giving the video lecture) but as long as he didn’t engage in formal heresy by raising those heretical teachings to the level of formal binding dogma, the idea that the Chair of St Peter was empty should be rejected. In other words, the papacy’s human aspects can lead to improper judgements or teachings, but the divine aspects of the office will prevent those errors from being taught infalliably or dogmatically binding upon the Church. In other words, not everything that a pope says or does is infalliable, which is the Traditional understanding of the different levels of Magisterial gravitas (there are 3 categories of Magisterial teaching, only 2 of which are infalliable). That’s at least how I understood Fr. Hesse’s short talk.
The link to John Salza’s appologetic website has some good orthodox material on this subject, and on why sedevacantism is wrong. The link is to the right on this page.
I would like those who subscribe to sedevacantism to explain to me how the Church can claim to remain visible and how the gates of Hell have not prevailed against Her (both of which are dogmatic teachings) if the chair of St. Peter has been vacant for almost 60 years? The Church by definition, must be visibly in union with the Chair of St Peter to be considered visible.
Just wondering…how close would canonizing someone who is not actually a saint be to raising “heretical teachings to the level of formal binding dogma”? I know it’s not exactly the same but I cannot help but see a certain similarity…Once someone has been canonized, can I as a Catholic refuse to accept the validity of such a pronouncement or is it binding on me?
@martina
that pile of sand over there is looking mighty good to my head right now.
@Halina – I’ll take your word for it. Charismatics utterly creep me out. Rome is thick – don’t they get that protestants just want to convert Catholics into ‘christians’? Protestants think the crucifix is evil – maybe that’s why Francis’ is getting smaller and smaller – he’s morphing into Tony Palmer’s old prot pappa.
p.s. I shouldn’t say ‘charasmatics’ creep me out, because of course, outside the theatre they’re not creepy at all, but inside…charasmaticmania creeps me out.
@babara – a pope attacking the persons of the sheeps is not Catholic, so we are in a quandary. besides, he started it.
Linda said: We are actually nothing more than self-absorbed Promethean neo-Palagians, enslaved by a form of gnosticism – going around like querilous and disillusioned pessimists in the guise of Creed-reciting parrot Christians, making us worshipers of the god Narcissus.
If you don’t mind Linda, I might plagiarize your adaptation from Mr Bones site – it’s too good. BTW i’ve tried to link from his site unsuccessfully before.
The only true solution to our dreadful situation is to understand, as Our Lord relates in the parable….”…an ENEMY hath done this…”
Frances, like each of the VII popes since 1958 is a hertic imposter and therefore not pope.This is not rocket science, but the plain obvious truth..Christ promised that Peters Faith would fail not. Vatican 1 solemnly declares Christs popes to be infalible on matters of Faith and morals.
Study what St Robert Ballermine expounded on this subject .Read what Pope Paul IV states in his pertinant encyclical Cum Ex Apostilatus .
Then take a deep breath and let this enormous burden lift from you hearts and you allow the TRUTH to set you free.
Dear Pope Saluto, you are being slightly childish in your reasoning “he started it” —I see this will get us far…Have a good Sunday, Your Holiness!
Dear Pope Jungle Jim (My you did choose a weird name, your Holiness!)
Our Lord must have slipped you THE KEYS when I wan’t looking …None of YOUR predecessors DOGMATISED OR FORMALISED ANYTHING….
But if you want to be Pope of your own never-ending rabbit-hole branch of Sedevacantism – you are free to do so ….it is a satanic temptation. The “big boys” are going through through the Passion of the Church as Our Lord said would happen…this is the Garden moment – with all these Judases around …so a good priest told me. .The sedevacantist refuses this …he/she takes the easy way out…sets himself up as magisterium and declares himself Pope… dangerous stuff…
Blessed Sunday all! I’m of to the most beautiful thing this side of heaven – a prayerful thought for all of you!
Barbara
God bless you, your Holiness,
Barbara
Dear Barbara,you should have been looking more carefuly.Taking your eyes off the ball will get you into trouble.Have you read Bellarmine? Have you read Pope Paul IV?? Would you have possibly read Pope StPius V Bull , Quo Primum Tempore……because if you had, you just might conclude that your so called …” most beautiful thing this side of heaven..” , is in fact anathematised by the great Pope Saint.
Oh , wait a minute…..that good priest told you it was ok.!!
Listening to our ” good priests” was the revolutionary tactic used by Satan to roll his Vatican II novelty right over us.
Kerp your eyes on the ball Batb.
Barbara… tsk tsk. Whatever happened to charity? There is no need to be personal and I think that Saluto was just making a point that if name calling is such a vice, your “pope” Francis drew the first volley against traditional Catholics across the world – including you I would presume. If you think he’s the pope then I have a duty as a humble and very flawed Catholic to point out the following: what would you expect would happen to you if you said any of the things that Mr Bergoglio has said?
I don’t know nearly enough of canon law and I am not well read on encyclicals and the like, but it doesn’t take the smartest catholic (or even a not-so-smart one with an internet connection) to understand that the answer to this question (prior to Vat II) is: Excommunication and condemnation. Why? Because they are openly heretical acts. Anyone who commits a heretical act is IPSO FACTO excommunicated and ceases to be a member of the Church. If he isn’t a member of the church, then he cannot be its head. And that is not judging the pope, but a mere man proclaiming to be the pope. This is basic logic.
To quote Stephen Speray’s blog
_____________
Vatican approved Professor of Canon Law, Rev. P. Charles Augustine, O.S.B., D.D explained in Canon 2315 that there are three types of suspicion for heretics.
“Violent suspicion amounts to morally certain proof…and is to be considered as a positive proof and therefore rather falls under can. 2314.”
Canon 2314.1, …, states that all heretics incur ipso facto excommunication.
Augustine explained can. 2314:
“2) The penalties here enunciated are twofold: censure and vindictive penalties; besides, a distinction is drawn, according to can. 2207, n. 1, by reason of dignity, between laymen and clerics.
a)The censure inflicted is excommunication incurred ipso facto, which per se requires not even a declaratory sentence… Note that the term moniti [warnings] (2314 §1, n. 2) does not refer to the incurring of the censure. Consequently, no canonical warning or admonition is required.”
____________
Back to me now… (By the way, Google Stephen please – I found him when looking up Robert Siscoe from my previous comment. @Peter, this may be an adequate response to your question):
The events in this blog amount to “violent suspicion” in my books. Enough said.
The man is a heretic, therefore cannot be a Catholic, let alone the Church’s Vicar of Christ.
I recommend to anyone who is seriously concerned about this openly evil Nope to listen to Restoration Radio. It’s available at http://www.blogtalkradio.com/restorationradio or on iTunes as a podcast.
Precious Blood of Jesus, wash over us. Save us from the wickedness and snares of the devil.
“A video recently surfaced in which Pope Francis extends a greeting, roughly seven minutes in length, to attendees of the Kenneth Copeland Ministries Conference (KCMC)…”
.
Copeland is a well-known exponent of the “Prosperity Gospel”. This is not good 🙁
Barbara…..and another thing….St Paul instructs us……..” if we, or an angel from Heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we have preached to you…..let him be anathema…”
Now Frances , you would surely agree Barbara, preaches a gospel OTHER than St Pauls……..THEREFORE anathema……not Catholic……and not Pope..See Barb its not rocket science.
As for you arrogantly applying the papacy to Saluto and myself , further highlights your inability to keep you eye on the ball, for neither of us made the claim to such a title…..but your man Fances does.
No doubt you had your eyes wide open and saw Our Lord give Frances THE KEYS.
Barbara – that was my point, I hope you’d get a giggle of it, my bad.
p.s. trads are right, trads do have a better sense of humour the non-trads. not directing at you, Barbara, talking about a different blog now, but the wounded heart seriousness of liberals if you say something true or crack a joke.
p.s. babs, i llike the pope swipe, you must have a good amount of trad in you
jungle Jim I think we’d make a good Benny and Frankie popes – I could be Frankie on days starting with b and you could Benny on days starting with b, and on Sundays we could could do slap-stick at the cathedral in Buenos Aires, we’d charge of course – can’t forget about poor multicorps.
Ill be in that Saluto.We could invite Barbara along to do a TSA style pat down,looking for those KEYS.
I’ll be in that Saluto.we could invite Barbara along to do a TSA style pat down.looking for those KEYS
scary, jj – babs will you have one those airport wooshy wands? I guess I’ll have to get smaller, maybe plastic crucifix to wear around my neck.
My Protestant aunt told me a while back that Kenneth Copeland was in Rome to teach the Catholic Church “about the Holy Spirit”. I couldn’t find anything online then this pops. Dear oh dear. We are seeing Papa Pancho come out with some scary stuff.
hmm. I wonder what Mr Copeland can teach the Bride about the Holy Ghost? having seen both sides of the fence between protestant and Catholic, my take on the Protestant understanding of the ‘Speeerat, yeaaah!’ is that it doesn’t like Catholics.
p.s. it’s highly unusual to see a crucifix in an Anglican church – never in Presbytarian there on into hellish splititude. at a prot charismoooooooods greet and gollosalia years ago a friend was scared witless by the madness. some poor woman in the crowd was wearing a crucifix and the group mind turned on her. don’t care what people say – Christ knew how crazy humans constantly assaulted by satan can become. the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church with, however a compromised lynchpin, is where the Holy Ghost works, properly, gracefully and orderly (and never this charity without truth trash). the One, True, Faith, has had some big papal Christ denying moments, just like the first pope. I prefer to think that Francis is a prodigal or just a Jesuit side-show-bob, while, (whatever his ‘under the weight of the wolves’ failings), Benedict is an extraordinary Pope given the last 60 years.
Summorum Pontificum is undoubtedly, the work of the Holy Ghost.
Here’s my own blog post, “derived” in a sense from Louie’s here:
http://www.acatholicthinker.net/blog/2014/2/23/more-catholic-than-the-pope.html
Well, dear Saluto and Jungle Jim 🙂 your most profound holinesses 🙂 my poor effort at being funny was simply to underline that none of us have THE KEYS …Our Lord – in His time – will raise up the right person to sort out the grand mess of the post-conciliar Catholic Church – and point out the heretics in power. Yes, as lay faithful, I think we should call a spade a spade – and criticise heretical behaviour when we see it in our church leaders and that includes the Pope (we have evidence in abundance, unfortunately) – but the names-abusing the Papacy – is as I’m sure you both know very well – not OK – not Catholic …and weakens our Catholic Identity.
I will be more careful in the future as I did not express myself as well as I could have this morning. Like both of you and all who write on this great blog – I am very, very worried about what is happening in Rome – I understand the upset…
But I did pray for you both and your loved ones at the Holy Mass today (the most beautiful thing this side of heaven!) and remembered you and everyone else here in my afternoon Rosary before the Blessed Sacrament. Our Lord smiled a lot at the name JUNGLE JIM! Oh yes I’m sure of it! 🙂
Barbara
No hard feels
should be : No hard feelings?
Good sport Barbara, BUT, …1/ have you read Ballermine……..2/ have you read Paul IV enc. CumEx Apostolatus Officio……3/ have you read Qup Primum…..
When you underdtand the content of this material you will understand why you must not regard the V II crowd as the Catholis Church.They are ALL apostates with NO authority.
Internally_Berzerk, actually the recognize-but-resist position is the Catholic one – it shouldn’t be surprising to you that (in fact most) traditionalists do recognize the pope as the pope but refuse to follow is non-binding, non-official teachings that contradict the actual, official doctrine & dogma of the Church.
I just gathered these quotes today for another purpose:
Augustine: “[St. Paul] showed, nonetheless, that it is possible for subordinates to have the boldness to resist their superiors without fear, when in all charity they speak out in the defense of truth.”
Bellarmine: “Although it clearly follows from the circumstances that the Pope can err at times, and command things which must not be done, that we are not to be simply obedient to him in all things, that does not show that he must not be obeyed by all when his commands are good. To know in what cases he is to be obeyed and in what not, it is said in the Acts of the Apostles: ‘One ought to obey God rather than man’; therefore,were the Pope to command anything against Holy Scripture, or the articles of faith, or the truth of the Sacraments, or the commands of the natural or divine law, he ought not to be obeyed, but in such commands, to be passed over.
Suarez: “If the pope gives an order contrary to right customs, he should not be obeyed; if he attempts to do something manifestly opposed to justice and the common good, it will be lawful to resist him; if he attacks by force, by force he can be repelled, with a moderation appropriate to a just defense.”
Pope St. Gregory the Great: “Peter remained silent so that, being first in the hierarchy of the Apostles, he might equally be first in humility.”
Pope Adrian VI (1522-1523) “If by the Roman Church you mean its head or pontiff, it is beyond question that he can error even in matters touching the faith. He does this when he teaches heresy by his own judgment or decretal. In truth, many Roman pontiffs were heretics. The last of them was Pope John XXII.” (Quaest. in IV Sententiam)
Venerable Pope Pius IX: “If a future pope teaches anything contrary to the Catholic Faith, do not follow him.” (Letter to Bishop Brizen)
Everyone of of those quotes from great popes & theologians implies that a true pope can either give bad example or hold materially heretical positions yet still be a true pope. So, again, your surprise needs to be reigned-in a bit – and no personal disrespect meant to you.
Since we simply cannot know whether or not the pope is a *formal* heretic – and even in that case there has never been any agreement among the theologians that he loses his office without any judgement from the Church (we have the difficulty that the supreme pontiff cannot be judged on Earth..), the appropriate position is to assume that the man that the Catholic world recognizes as pope who was canonically elected pope is actually the pope.
At some point, though, it becomes academic – we (traditionalists) are going to resist him – all of us. We are going to stand with Tradition, with the true faith, with Athanasius over Liberius. God bless.
With all this talk of keys, see this message from Jesus on June 6th, 2011.
“The Keys of Rome now being handed back to God the Almighty Father”
http://www.thewarningsecondcoming.com/the-keys-of-rome-now-being-handed-back-to-god-the-almighty-father/
Blessings,
Marc
Marc, the site you reference is that of a fraud that’s been thoroughly outed:
http://midwaystreet.wordpress.com/2013/11/11/8/
Please learn a little Catholic common sense…
I suggest you keep an open mind “A Catholic Thinker”, our Lord may very well be talking to us through this person.
MDM has been quite prophetic so far…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfCXeVuVr18&list=FLeoo9CuTMSIvhD4Vk9OtgpA&index=4
Marc, anyone who can fall for so obvious a fraud is simply believing what they want to. Sorry. God bless you.
Quo Primum and the quotations by St. Robert B. re: the papacy – yes – but not the other you mention by Paul IV..but I will .thanks Jungle Jim!
I liked you explanation very much Catholic Thinker…that is exactly where I stand…until someone with authority from Our Lord tells us differently and we will know when that happens. I just have to stay faithful and in a state of grace as I want to go to heaven. This is normal anyway for a Catholic who loves Our Lord and His Church…
God bless us all!
Barbara
@ Catholic Thinker
Those are all very good quotes, but to play devil’s advocate – the basis for the authority of the papacy lies in Peter’s profession of faith and Jesus’s granting him the keys and giving him the power to bind and loose, right? There’s not any kind of exception clause given by Jesus, it’s whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven and whatsoever you loose on earth is loose in heaven. There’s no mention by Jesus of except in cases where you preach heresy. It’s an all or nothing proposition. If the pope is really the pope and has this authority then it shouldn’t matter at all what he says, he has the power to bind and loose and we have an obligation to obey him. By making exceptions the way some of your writers do, however common sensical they may be, they undermine the power given to Peter and in theory his successors. The pope is either an absolute monarch because that was the intention of Jesus or he is not. The fact that we have had heretic popes seems to be either a good argument for Sedevacantism which would still uphold the power of the pope to bind and loose and therefore someone who is crazy, evil, or heretical ceases to be pope and therefore ceases to have that power or for Orthodoxy. The mention that you make of St. Paul, how he resisted Peter to his face, how the issue of admission to the Church was decided by a council of all the apostles who ruled against Peter seems to follow more the idea of Orthodoxy. IF Francis is a heretic, either the keys need to be taken from him (sedevacantism) or we need to look and say if this man is Pope, then it could not have been the intention of Jesus to make the papacy an absolute monarchy, and while he holds a primacy of honor, he cannot make arbitrary decisions binding on everyone (Orthodoxy). To say he is really Pope, with the keys, with absolute authority to bind and loose whatsoever he decides, but when we disagree with him, we can ignore him, just makes no logical sense to me. It’s a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it too…apologies if I’m rambling…
God bless for the Mass remembrance, Barbara – I need all I can get!
As a recent revert to the one true faith, and one who drives an extra hour every Sunday morning to attend a traditional Latin mass very early I really feel that getting back to the traditional faith and liturgy is what will revitalize the church. Considering how difficult it is to find TLM, I think modernist influences in the church, and Satan know this also and want tradition surpressed.
I must say one thing though, I guess the “elephant in the room” that I’m still having trouble with. I’m a pretty laid back guy, but of course I take my faith seriously. But there are those in the TLM, the frowning, unfriendly guys in the three piece suits that refuse to say hello after mass. It’s almost like if your not in their “home-schooling clique”… well.. your just not cool enough to elicit a hello or handshake.
Please know, I truly love the TLM, and my faith has exploded since discovering it. But I really don’t want to be chased off by these “bowtie mafia” folks.
What am I to do? I cant handle the craziness of the central Texas mexi-mass” “again
You folks ought to read John 17. And consider this, Jesus prayed for unity for His followers. The One True Church is the One Holy Catholic Church that broke it’s brotherly unity a thousand years ago. Our Orthodox brothers and sisters have watched us Romans tinker with the celebration of the Eucharist for a thousand years since, and pronounce dogma that the One Holy Catholic Church has never declared to be binding on all members of the One Holy Catholic Church in a true Ecumenical of that Church, because it is still divided among those who call the themselves Orthodox ( faithful to the teachings given to us by Christ and His Apostles) and the Roman Catholics, whose members have multiplied into a thousand sects proclaiming to be the true Christians! Satan must be laughing himself silly!
salvelinus: so true that it will be and is Tradition that is giving Catholics ‘new’ life. don’t mind the three piece suits (hopefully they are paying big bucks to support the Tradition). at the NO I attend it took the better part two years before more than one person was friendly – even the priest turned his back on me. people are, well, who can say?
@’you folks’, that would be protestants – the doctrine and dogma of the One, True Faith and Her Holy Tradition, and indeed Her Holy Mass, is, as Christ promised still very much alive and well.
Between this and the news of another “miracle” attributed to Paul IV, it has not been a great week for me spiritually. How many hundreds of years did we go between canonizations of a pope, now, every pope since VII will be a “saint”, I don’t want to second guess Holy Mother Church, but I just cannot accept this. If they can do the things that they did and still get into heaven, then my God, I should be able to live my life which ever way I want and still make it to heaven. In the mean time, I’ve already jumped ship to the Eastern Catholic Churches since I have no TLM in my area.
RC – bon voyage, and God speed.
Question: Will the Pope win more souls with honey or vinegar? Reading all these comments, it appears to have a Pharisee conference going on. Love will win the Protestants back. Did Jesus call the woman that was an adulterer a whore? Or did he show her love and tell her to go and sin no more. It is sad bretheren that you can’t see the love that will entice those separated bretheren back again. I see all these comments saying bad things of the Pope. The Vicar of Christ..how is this alright? Please.ask your Priest at your next confession if this discourse is not sinful? Keep your heart on Jesus and as we know the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church. Relax and pray!
Satan is having a party here.
Sure the present Pope is saying and doing some dangerous things.
But sedevacantism is a total heresy. It is NO answer. Our Lord promised us He would be with the Church until the end of time, and I take Him at His word.
Criticise what the Pope says and does but do not call him derogatory names.
This period is our passion time and trying to escape it by leaving the Church just won’t work.
Seriously? Read the gospels about charity, love, and mercy. Read the second Vatican Council documents.
In prayer for all of us…
Christ won souls with niether honey or vinegar – He won souls with Truth. any seeking soul alreadly has within it the hunger for the Way, the Truth and the Life. Peopleknow when they are being placated and brushed off with smiley faces – many seem to love this stuff, it won’t save their souls, and Francis must know this.
–
2jn.1.6 And this is charity, that we walk according to his commandments. For this is the commandment, that, as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in the same: 1.7 For many seducers are gone out into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh: this is a seducer and an antichrist. 1.8 Look to yourselves, that you lose not the things which you have wrought: but that you may receive a full reward.
The question is whether Bergoglio ever had the Catholic Faith….I really see no evidence in the first year of his occupation of the throne of St. Peter, that he has the catholic faith…
If he never had it, he is not validly elected….
While I am not a sedevacantist, I cannot dismiss with insults and prejudice, the resonable doubts which anyone has on this score…
These clowns over at Vericast.net are ripping into Louie Verreccio
http://www.vericast.net/blog/2014/02/24/brother-bishop/
What a foolish and reckless thing for a Pope to do.
John – Louie takes the scourge, but at least we know we are on the rite site.
I will pray for you all..you are protesting the Lord Jesus’ appointed representative on the earth. The brother in the prodigal son never entered his Father’s banquet, because he was protesting the Father’s approach and yes his mercy. Please pray on this and ask for the spirit of pride to be removed from your presence.
Look at you. Disgrace to the catholic church you sedavacanist. Christ came to unite not divide fools. You donnot even read the bible, keep your dogmas to yourself as they wont save you. You give the church a bad name