As Cornelia Ferreira mentioned in her inaugural post here at akaCatholic, Fatima Through the Lens of Vatican II: As Illustrated by Raymond Cardinal Burke:
The WAF/Blue Army has long broadcast the Vatican’s Party Line on Fatima. Now an International Public Association of Pontifical Right, it claims it’s “the only Fatima organization in the world which speaks ‘in the name of the Church’ and ‘with the authority of the Church on Fatima.”
Its “charisma” is “the New Evangelization of the world through the authentic Message of Fatima.” Its “responsibility” is to “guard the purity of the message.”
In this, so-called “Fatimists” can find nothing controversial. Indeed, all concerned have long since recognized the formerly named Blue Army, now World Apostolate of Fatima (WAF), as the very definition of a “false friend” of the effort to spread Our Lady’s authentic message.
Where some apparently did find cause for offense was in Mrs. Ferreira’s suggestion that Cardinal Raymond Burke is allied to considerable extent with these enemies of Fatima as reflected in the “distortions and doubletalk” put forth in his recent presentation given at the Roman Life Forum.
She even went so far as to say that “Cardinal Burke’s favored source of information” is none other than the WAF, which, as she pointed out, “was very pleased with his speech.”
In this, she was referring in part to the reaction of David Carollo, Executive Director of WAF USA as given in a blog post on the group’s website under the title:
Call for consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart is hopeful sign of the times
The simple fact that the WAF applauded Cardinal Burke’s speech is enough to suggest that His Eminence’s words may not represent a “vindication” of Fr. Nicholas Gruner as some claimed.
In any case, it will be informative to take a closer look at what Mr. Carollo had to say. He begins:
A few days ago at the Rome Life Forum, Cardinal Raymond Burke gave a compelling address on “The Secret of Fatima and a New Evangelization,” calling for a consecration of Russia in “recognition of the importance which Russia continues to have in God’s plan for peace and a sign of profound love for our brothers and sisters in Russia.”
Notice the wording, “calling for a consecration of Russia…”
Is this simply Carollo’s attempt at damage control after effectively having been called out by a member of the College of Cardinals for falsely claiming that the consecration was already done, or does it reflect an accurate reading of His Eminence’s words?
Clearly, in my view, it is the latter. Carollo goes on:
While acknowledging his certitude that St. John Paul II carried out the collegial consecration of the world, including Russia, on May 25, 1984, Cardinal Burke said, “Today, once again, we hear the call of Our Lady of Fatima to consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart, in accord with her explicit instruction.”
In reference to the “pressure” placed on John Paul II to refrain from making an “explicit reference to Russia” during his 1984 consecration of the world, Carollo wrote:
These pressures should not be the case today and to make the consecration again with explicit mention of Russia is nothing more than following what John Paul II himself said of his consecration…
NB: …to make the consecration again.
At this, Carollo, just as Cardinal Burke had in his speech, quoted John Paul II – the man who bears more responsibility than any other for the massive Vatican cover-up of the Fatima message for which the WAF exists to continue:
“Mary’s appeal is not for just once. Her appeal must be taken up by generation after generation, in accordance with the ever new ‘signs of the times.” It must be unceasingly returned to. It must ever be taken up anew.”
Carollo went on to reiterate in the plainest terms possible one of the central positions held by the WAF; one that also forms a fundamental part the official Vatican deception:
After the 1984 consecration was done, Sister Lucia confirmed that it was “accepted by Heaven.”
Get that?
Those who, after the example Fr. Nicholas Gruner, are laboring even now for the consecration of Russia as if it has yet to be done; all in anticipation of the promised fruits that Our Lady attached to her request, are wasting their time.
Apparently, the WAF does not see Cardinal Burke’s newfound interest in Fatima as expressed at the Roman Life Forum as a challenge to this particular lie.
Does that mean that Cardinal Burke is fully on board with it?
No, not necessarily.
As for how one might be assured that the consecration was in fact done to Our Lady’s satisfaction, Carollo pointed to the following events that unfolded in the Soviet Union thereafter as a sort of proof that it resulted in peace:
– On May 13, 1984 (feast of Our Lady of Fatima) an explosion destroys 80 percent of the Soviet Union’s main munitions storage depot for its largest fleet; two-thirds of its missiles are destroyed
– On Dec. 13, 1984, an explosion in Siberia destroys the Soviet Union’s largest ammunition base
– On April 26, 1986, the Chernobyl nuclear reactor accident occurs and we now know it staved off a planned nuclear strike on Europe in retaliation for the arrival of U.S. Pershing II nuclear missiles in Europe.
– May 12, 1988, an explosion wrecks the Soviet factory that made rocket motors for its deadly long-range missiles.
Get that?
Three explosions and a nuclear disaster is what passes for the promised period of peace according to the enemies of Fatima.
Apparently, the WAF does not see Cardinal Burke’s newfound interest in Fatima as expressed at the Roman Life Forum as a challenge to this particular lie.
Does that mean that Cardinal Burke is fully on board with it?
No, not necessarily.
About the conversion of Russia that was also promised, Carollo suggested that there is evidence that it is indeed taking place as a direct result of the 1984 consecration:
People are converting back to God … Young people, having grown up in atheistic families, are drawn to the beauty, truth and rich culture that the Catholic, Russian Orthodox and other Christian religions provide. I have been to Russia a number of times and can affirm, the Faith is on the rise there.
Get that?
The “conversion” being peddled by the WAF isn’t a conversion to the one true Faith, but rather one that includes persons entering both the schismatic and the heretic communities!
Apparently, the WAF does not see Cardinal Burke’s newfound interest in Fatima as expressed at the Roman Life Forum as a challenge to this particular lie.
Does that mean that Cardinal Burke is fully on board with it?
No, not necessarily.
I trust at this you get the point.
It has become ever more clear in recent days, in ways both public and private, that a “rift” has arisen between persons once united in the effort to promote the authentic message of Fatima.
This division didn’t begin with Cardinal Burke’s speech. His presentation did, however, manage to magnify it.
At this, it would seem beneficial for all concerned to return to some of the common ground that we share as a launching point for future discussions:
We know very well that the mission of the World Apostolate of Fatima is to distort the true message of Fatima in order to give it the appearance of compatibility with the aims of the “conciliar Church” – the church-of-man that emerged following Vatican II; the very “suicide of altering the faith” that Our Lady wished to preempt.
As such, anyone who actively collaborates with the WAF in its mission of deception, even if unwittingly and with every good intention, is no friend of Fatima.
Surely, all who wish to promote Our Lady’s authentic message after the example of Fr. Nicholas Gruner can agree on at least this much.
Might I suggest that keeping this in mind moving forward will prove useful.
I will be forever grateful to dear Fr Nicholas Gruner RIP, his understanding of the Fatima Apparition was in complete conformity to Our Lords wishes to fulfill His most Holy Mothers requests. Cardinal Burke is sadly clinging to the so called fruits of VII. In order to keep with the party line the dance must continue and Our Ladies humble request must be reinvented to suit these disoriented men. One of the many books Fr Gruner sent me was Frere Michel de la Sainte Trinite, The Whole Truth About Fatima, which Cardinal Burke is said to have read…..Prehaps he should re read pages 721-forward. First Saturday is upon us and please God we are all attending mass Saturday with the express intention of making reparation to the Sorrowful Immaculate Heart of Our Lady.
How many are aware that Pope Pius XII consecrated the people’s of Russia to the Immaculate Heart on July 7, 1952? It was not the original request, but the message stated that “in the end, the Holy Father” would do it, and a period of peace would be granted. Following that consecration, which was late, Russia ceased with its genocide of the Russian people and with its more generalized threats. Mundabor even did a piece on this earlier this year, I believe. It’s possible that they’ve had this all wrong.
Additionally, “conversion” in another sense used in the Scriptures can mean a conversion to PEACE. She never used the words “converted to the Catholic Faith.”
Fully aware of this act from the pope, I believe it was Fr Gruner who made the comment regarding Sr Lucy response to this as a half measure, but the point being is that the fruits of Our Lady’s promises are still not fulfilled. As the pope did the act without the bishops.
I cannot see how anyone can get this confused Our Lady didn’t speak in riddles, She spoke very clear concerning this important matter.
Bottom line is simple the Russian people are not converted, they do not believe in the Immaculate conception , nor do they obey the Sacrament of marriage, in the Russian Orthodox Church a person can divorce up to three times. But like Fr Gruner said It is very possible God is preparing them for the consecration. As Our Lord n Lady confirmed that it will be done, but it will be late, But in the meantime apostasy in the church is tearing the mystical body of Christ apart, n there is no peace in the world.
No, you are incorrect and need to do more research about everything Fr. Gruner documented very well including Sr, Lucia’s long history of calling for the Consecration long after Pius XII.
Pius XII’s consecration failed because it was him alone and without the world’s bishops joining him.
Sr. Lucia for years and years after Pius XII’s attempt repeatedly stated it was not done and required the Pope with the participation of the worlds bishops in union with him. An obvious demonstration against the shismatic Russian Orthodox.
Also Mary was not so much concerned about the persecution of the Russian people. She was concerned about THEIR SINS WHICH OFFENDED GOD, for which Persecution and war was a Chastisement.
A period of peace did not exist. Even as WWII was winding down, others wars still took place and only increased and increased right up to our time. Today tensions between Washington and Moscow are as bad as they were during the Cold War. In fact the conflict between the U.S. and Russia never ended. It went underground and was fought via proxy.
“The moment has come in which God asks the Holy Father to make, and to order that in union with him and at the same time, all the bishops of the world make the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart.” (Frère Michel, The Whole Truth About Fatima, vol. II, p. 555).
Sister Lucy set forth the conditions necessary to fulfill in order to validly accomplish the consecration of Russia according to Our Lady’s request at Tuy:
• Russia must be clearly indicated as the object of the consecration;
• Each bishop must make a public and solemn ceremony in his own cathedral.
(See The Fatima Crusader Issue 63).
October 31: Pope Pius XII, acting alone and on the basis of
inaccurate information about what Our Lady requested, consecrates
the world, but not Russia specifically, to the Immaculate Heart. The
bishops do not participate.
• December 8: Pius XII repeats the same ceremony, again without
the participation of the bishops. Our Lord tells Sister Lucy that
because of this World War II will be shortened, but that world peace
will not result as Russia has not been consecrated to the Immaculate
Heart of Mary and consequently converted. World peace is reserved
only to the proper Consecration of Russia.
1952: Our Lady is Still Awaiting the Consecration; Pius XII tries
again.
• May: Our Lady appears to Sister Lucy saying: “Make it known
to the Holy Father that I am always awaiting the Consecration of
Russia to My Immaculate Heart. Without the Consecration, Russia
will not be able to convert, nor will the world have peace.”
• July 7: Pope Pius XII consecrates Russia specifically in an
apostolic letter called Sacro vergente anno, but only as a written
exhortation. He does not ask for all the bishops to join him
in keeping with Our Lady’s request for a public ceremony
conducted by the Pope in union with all the Catholic bishops of
the whole world.
I understand sedes like to cling to Pius XII, but they need to face facts.
Pius XII failed to obey God.
It’s only out of charity that we presume he received bad information concerning how to perform the Consecration.
Conversion has always meant conversion to the Catholic faith. The same kind of conversion as those pagans in Mexico under Our Lady of Guadalupe.
This is why Russia’s ERRORS are emphasized. One of them being the Orthodox SCHISM.
Another point being SIN. Man was to cease offending God. Conversion also means a turning away from sin. Which requires conversion. And maybe some people like all this ecumenistic nonsense, but God doesn’t do any half-way conversions.
Peace is one of those ill defined things. Depending on who you ask, any criteria can be attached to it. But we understand it strictly as the absence of war, given world war was one of the secrets and still holds true prophetically for the future. What is the Catholic understanding?
When God says he’ll bring Peace, He doesn’t mean the kind the U.S.A. or the U.N. brings. Let’s not get stupid here. Peace from God is also the REIGN OF JESUS CHRIST, who alone is the PRINCE OF PEACE!
This is only possible in the Kingdom of God, AKA His One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.
The one obvious point being:
– God wills that the Pope and Bishops PUBLICLY Consecrate Russia TOGETHER at the same time.
– Obviously this is a demonstrable message and therefore a very unprecedented BIG DEAL.
– This is because when Russia finally miraculously converts the whole world will know that it had to be BECAUSE OF THE POPE AND CATHOLIC BISHOPS!
– Logically that means that the world will be very aware of the fact that CATHOLICISM is the TRUE RELIGION. What do you think would logically happen next???
Of course! The results are that Russia becomes Catholic, and that the world aware of this miracle, must also be called to conversion.
—–
Peace and Conversion
As St. Augustine explains, peace is the tranquility of order. Since God is the Creator of men, it follows that mankind will have peace only when it conforms to the order for society laid down by the Creator. To have true and lasting peace among men, man must live a just and pious life in accordance with the nature God gave him. The peace that Our Lady predicted will not “consist merely in acts of external or formal courtesy, but [will be] a peace which will penetrate the souls of men and which will unite, heal, and reopen their hearts to the mutual affection which is born of brotherly love. The peace of Christ is the only peace answering this description” (Pope Pius XI, Ubi Arcano Dei Consilio). “He is our peace,” Saint Paul declared (Eph. 2:14).
The peace that will result from the Consecration of Russia will not merely be the absence of war. It will be the peace that results from the reign of Jesus Christ among individuals, families and society: “Christ [will be] all, and in all” (Col. iii, 11). The Social Kingship of Christ will be recognized and lived by all. As Pope Pius XI explained, “Jesus Christ reigns over the minds of individuals by His teachings, in their hearts by His love, in each ones life by the living according to His law and the imitating of His example. Jesus reigns over the family when it, modeled after the holy ideals of the sacrament of matrimony instituted by Christ, maintains unspotted its true character of sanctuary. In such a sanctuary of love, parental authority is fashioned after the authority of God, the Father The obedience of the children imitates that of the Divine Child of Nazareth, and the whole family life is inspired by the sacred ideals of the Holy Family.
Finally, Jesus Christ reigns over society when men recognize and reverence the sovereignty of Christ, when they accept the divine origin and control over all social forces, a recognition which is the basis of the right to command for those in authority and of the duty to obey for those who are subjects, a duty which cannot but ennoble all who live up to its demands.
Christ reigns where the position in society which He Himself has assigned to His Church is recognized, for He bestowed on the Church the status and the constitution of a society which, by reason of the perfect ends which it is called upon to attain, must be held to be supreme in its own sphere; He also made her the depository and interpreter of His divine teachings, and, by consequence, the teacher and guide of every other society whatsoever, not of course in the sense that she should abstract in the least from their authority, just as divine grace perfects human nature, and should give to them the assistance necessary for men to attain their true final end, eternal happiness, and by that very fact make them the more deserving and certain promoters of their happiness here below.
It is, therefore, a fact which cannot be questioned that the true peace of Christ can only exist in the Kingdom of Christ” (Ubi Arcano Dei Consilio).
God has determined that this peace will come through the Consecration of Russia, and the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. The peace that the Consecration of Russia will effect, therefore, will not only be political, but will extend to the peace that flows from a worldwide unity of minds, hearts and wills: a Catholic peace. To use Pius XIs phrase, it will be “the peace of Christ in the Kingdom of Christ.”
http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/HTimages_g-k/G012_A05_Serious.jpg
Still surrounded by deception.
Such a great event, Fatima. God has allowed so much deception and so much blindness. It’s laughable. We deserve it though.
People tend to prefer to cling to deceptions and their opinions rather than fully explore all angles and possibilities, often because they don’t possess enough love of Truth because it’s going to cost them something.
The fact that people are still quoting that despicable liar and imposter in that photo to this day boggles my mind.
It boggles my mind how people’s eyeballs and and brains could be so deceived. Why can’t we see reality here. 2 different people. Similar to the 1 pope, 2 pope deception. Wait now, how many guys live at the Vatican and call themselves “pope”? Oh yeah, that’s 1 or wait is that 2? Let’s just endlessly debate this. Because obviously that’s a tough one. I just can’t add those 2 guys up on this occasion. Not that the Church is in major crisis or anything though, and we haven’t been deceived a million times over the past 60 plus years. So badly that Our Lady of Good Success found it necessary to warn specifically of this very time and this very crisis in the Church now, way back in the 1600s. So let’s just say that’s 1 guy. Wait, or is it 2? I just can’t figure this one out! Perhaps I’ll ask an expert, because surely he’ll have this all figured out. This great Deception. babal. Cling to the math, guys. Cling to the math. 2 guys. 2 guys! Also, 2 different Lucias. Not too hard here. So, if those high ups and other “experts” can’t see reality here, why in heck would we rely on them to decipher the simple message of Fatima. Either Russia was consecrated or it wasn’t. There really should be no debate here. There’s no peace inside or outside the Church. Oh, and I would put money on the 3rd secret really being about this whole mess. I mean what could possibly be worse than freemasons infiltrating and highjacking everyone and placing their konks on the Chair if Peter in order to lead millions or billions of souls to hell? Hmmm….of course, that would be John Paul 2 being shot. That makes sense. Where are our brains? What’s with our eyes? We all need to up our own personal levels of prayer. I know I need to.
God doesn’t require super intelligence, great vocabularies, or status to hear and heed His Mother’s simple requests. Let’s do this thing. Are we doing our parts?
Proverbs 16:7- “When the ways of man shall please the Lord, He will convert even his enemies to peace.”
Our Lady: “If they listen to my requests, Russia will be converted and there will be peace.”
Proverbs 16:7- “When the ways of man shall please the Lord, He will *convert even his enemies to peace*.”
Our Lady: “If they listen to my requests, Russia will be converted and there will be peace.”
The horrors in Russia ceased after Pope Pius XII performed his Consecration. Our Lady said in the END, “the Holy Father” would do it. That time she didn’t say, “with the bishops”.
Great than everything’s fine in the Church, and Russia has not spread her errors and there is no chastisement here. Phew, that’s a relief. I must have been terribly mistaken. Russia is consecrated. Awesome…moving on.
Hardly. That’s just more of the Great Deception and cover-up. The 3rd Secret was not revealed those who read it stated that it has to do with the “Council” and the Great Apostasy from the top that we are witnessing right now. We need to put all pride and human respect aside, do honest research and get straightened out real quick. Hint: it’s the absolute least popular position to hold right now. All heresies must be purged from our belief system as well.
Substitute John Paul II with Pius XII and your position is exactly the same as the Blue Army WAF.
I stated nothing above that isn’t the Truth.
To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever done the consecration, regardless of the wording, in union with all the bishops of the world. Our Lady was not joking when she laid down the conditions that would be acceptable to Heaven. It must name Russia, not the peoples of Russia and not the peoples that await the consecration, but Russia to Her Immaculate Heart in union with all the bishops of the world.
And no one in their right Catholic mind could think that there has been any period of peace in the world, or conversion of that miserable country. There is only one conversion and that is and always has been to the one true Faith, not some cut off branch that has withered and died. And Lucia herself made it plain to Fr. Fuentes that it had not been done as Our Lady had requested.
Eh? I cannot make out what you are trying to say here. There has been no consecration as Our Lady asked, full stop, period, end of story. There has been no conversion of Russia or peace in the world. And there are plenty of reliable sources for this information but you must not have read them. Reason alone defies the idea that the consecration has been accomplished. Look around you. Things in the world have never been worse. At least in previous pagan times, the had not received Our Lord in the flesh yet. We are at least as bad as Sodom and Gomorrah. We have plumbed the depths of depravity and made most of them legal. This is not peace but the social reign of Satan. And we are Catholics and believe the Catholic Faith, what is this “belief system” of which you speak?
I’m simply saying that there are other interpretations of what has occurred. Our Lady did not use the words, “peace in the world.” Peace in the world would have to be by God’s standards and that can only mean when the world recognizes Christ as King.
This is NOT Sr. Lucia, as proved by simply viewing and analyzing their photos, as well as the handwriting analysis which has been done on her writings vs. those of the real Sr. Lucia. This is simply a “prophecy” being fulfilled by those who planned it all along and hence put it out there to perpetuate the deception. Enough already. God help us.
http://www.fatimaperspectives.com/fe/perspective1039.asp
Johno, sedes dont “cling” to anyone except Christ. Pius XII was indeed flawed and weak and made grave mistakes in governing the Church. He did not however teach error. Therefore sedes recognize Pius XII as the last true Pope.
What is this Proverb supposed to demonstrate?
The current Sede position is based on faulty reasoning even if their conclusion is potentially correct.
If the Sede position is right, the Church failed when it started ignoring, then promoting the Condemned Formal Heresy of Heliocentrism, and every Pope and Sede that accepts this position ceased to be Catholic.
Here we see demonstrated here by Simple Beggar how dangerous the current Sede position is to some who haven’t really thought things through.
What Simple Beggar here is attempting to do is to now deny the obvious in order to protect his Sede position via protecting Pius XII.
According to Simple Beggar, Mary is now contradicting herself and contradicting God’s explicit command.
“Did Mary really say… with the Bishops?”
“Did God really say… thou shalt surely die?”
The Devil’s words and logic, from the rationale of A Simple Beggar.
Nice try. But we’ll go with Sr. Lucia’s interpretation of our Lady’s instructions and her consistent testimony, even after Mary telling her that the holy Fatgher will do it late, that this still meant that the Pope had to do it with the Bishops.
PERIOD.
So unless A Simple Beggar has been visited by an Apparition and A Simple Beggar can tell us when we can expect a public miracle on so and so day, A Simple Beggar can submit his Private Revelation to the Vatican for approval… then again, considering that Rome has no authority anymore and the Chair of Peter is vacant, A Simple Beggar will have to wait a long time until we take his private revelation seriously.
A Louie pointed out – there are many false friends of Fatima. We can see that A Simple Beggar is keen on being one of them.
Oh? You seriously believe this is the Truth?
“The horrors in Russia ceased after Pope Pius XII performed his Consecration.”
Please. Stop and Think. Very Carefully. About what you are saying. It is Laughable. It is Ignorant of History.The Soviet and Red Army atrocities and wars continued all the way up to the 90s long after Pius XII died. Ever hear of a place called Afghanistan, for example? Did that sound peaceful?
Are you seriously going to tell me that Mary only meant within Russia’s borders? Oh? You think everything was fine and dandy there, do you?
What are you even rambling about anymore?
Considering the official cover-up didn’t begin in earnest until after the 84 Consecration, technically long after that one as well, as john Paul II did other consecrations, Caffara could’ve easily had contact with the real Sr. Lucia in the 80s before the alleged double began showing up after 2000 and shaking hands with John Paul II.
And considering the Theology surrounding Mary, and Church teachings about marriage and mary’s role, right from the get-go sending Christ off officially on His Mission during the Wedding in Cana, it’s perfectly Catholic and natural that the final battle between the Woman who would crush the head of Satan would have something to do with Marriage, something obviously under attack from the world today, and now including ‘Pope’ Francis.
Considering nowhere does Caffarra claim this had anything to do with the 3rd Secret, it seems like a pretty innocuous thing to get harped up about.
Having other interpretations, like having other opinions, isn’t a virtue and counts for jack-all, when you’re demonstrably wrong.
If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world”.
(Second Part of the Secret of Fatima)
“a period of peace will be granted to the WORLD”.
I’m sure the Afghanis were enjoying peace after Pius XII huh? Unless you take God’s peace to be oh… worth… oh… 20 years… and you’d still be wrong considering the Soviets were causing trouble in all kinds of places like Hungary and Czechslovakia, long after Pius XII’s last attempt at a Consecration in 1952 leading up to Afghanistan in the late 70s.
Your interpretation is wrong.
God didn’t suddenly decide to relax the rules when Mary came back to comfort Lucia that the Holy Father would inevitably do it late.
Look at the whole thing in context. Don’t just zoom in on on apparition’s visit and dissect it from the entire Fatima Message, like a Protestant isolating Biblical verses to force his interpretation into it.
That sounds . . . . . Catholic (i.e. true)! Keep up the good work, Johnno!
There is no “peace” where mass murder of babies in utero is upheld as “legal”, ditto for a whole range of evils such as sodomitical relations, purporting to deny or change one’s God-given sex, corruption of children, contraception, divorce . . .
The mass denial of the factual truth, the mass of evil in which we’re engulfed, is diabolic.
Johnno, what exactly is that faulty reasoning? Also please reference where the geo/helio issue is a dogma of the faith. Because there is no fixed reference point I understand that there can never be an absolute declaration to settle the geo/helio debate. But I never recalled geocentrism to be an article of faith from revelation. It may have been an opinion held by the ancient world and by many churchmen, but in the deposit of faith? That I never heard before.
I have explained this already several times before in other comments here just as much as the Sede position has been reiterated numerous times. So let me be very brief. but this is something you’ll have to research mroe thoroughly on your own.
The Sede position as outlined to me are that the Papacy never ever ever ever or ever shall promulgate error.
Unfortunately for the Sedes, there is the Galileo Affair.
Anyone who reads the Inquisitorial Ruling over it will see it DEFINED as FORMAL HERESY. For the simple reason that Galileo’s ideas contradicted Sacred Inerrant Scripture, and contradicted the universal consensus of the Church Fathers, defined as Infallible when it came to teachings about the faith and interpretation of Scripture, which was 100% Geocentric, and 100% held and defended against the opinions of the Greeks, Pythagorus etc. Defending the Earth as the Center of the Universe as being God’s footstool and throne on which the Incarnation would reside, against the opinion of the pagans that the Earth as the center was the anus and worst area of the universe’s existence because the heavens were the domain of the gods.
Heliocentrism denied this. Galileo and others wanted to interpret the Scriptures apart from the consensus of the Fathers where Tradition since the Jews to the Catholic Church was geocentric. If one wanted to claim the Fathers were wrong over Geocentrism, one could logically say the Fathers were wrong about Mary’s perpetual Virginity, the nature of the Eucharist, the Mass, the Papacy, the whole shebang essentially making Catholic Tradition and the Father’s interpretations of Scripture as a whole worthless and thus end up propping up the rationale of the Protestant Revolt, and the actions of the Enlightenment movements which were anti-dogmatic in so far as Scripture interfered with their desires.
The 16th-17th century Popes and St. Robert Bellarmine and the Holy Inquisitors were not idiots. They saw where this was going. The Papacy used the full weight of their authority to censor and prohibit the spread of heliocentrism. Even the Catholic editors of Newton’s books had to add a preface note that while they were involved in publishing his works, that they make clear that they do not subscribe to his views, but hold faithfully to the teachings of the Holy Roman Pontiffs. That’s Pontiffs with a plural. And doing so under severe penalty.
While it is indeed right that belief in Geocentrism is NOT an Article of Faith – NECESSARY – for Salvation. As Catholics by and large are not expected to be Theologians of complicated theology needing to do with say, the nature of the Trinity, nor are they to be expert historians or archaeologists in order to defend evidence of the Kingdom of Israel or the Davidic Monarchy or where Babel was located or if Nimrod existed, nor are they to be expert scientists able to understand other matters that might be at odds with Scripture. This doesn’t mean the issue is unimportant because it deals directly with whether the Scriptures are Inerrant. Whether the Fathers are reliable. Or whether the Papacy can infallibly teach.
It was not some out-of-reach scientific debate off to the side. It HAD TO DO WITH THEOLOGICAL, DOGMATIC AND SCRIPTURAL MATTERS. Modernist apologetics would want you to believe otherwise, that this was just some outside thing the Papacy stuck its head in where it didn’t belong, and therefore everything is fine, Genesis is a poem, and you should listen to whatever the atheist Darwinists and Copernicans tell you is true.
So depending on where you fall, either –
A) The Holy Spirit was on vacation from 33 AD – 1700 AD or…
B) The Holy Spirit took a vacation after 1700 -current day.
As is well documented, but by and large kept from the public consciousness – there is no scientific evidence that the Earth moves through space and scientific experiments routinely failed to prove it which drove the academics mad. Since they couldn’t prove it, the consensus turned to the house of mirrors that is Relativity where one cannot tell what is actually moving around what, that a geocentric and heliocentric model is co-equivalent mathematically, and the Earth is only presumed to be moving due to cosmic-evolutionary bias which makes it unlikely not to be moving and central, because otherwise that infers deliberate Design. Also, it makes the Catholic Church look good, and the Galileo myth that has destroyed its credibility for years is too precious a piece of propaganda to give up.
Around the 1800s or so, the Papacy has slowly been giving ground to heliocentrism by removing the condemned books of Galileo and Copernicus off the index, or allow Catholic theologians to explore them again, based on deception where modernist Cardinals lied to the Pope about why the Inquisition condemned their ideas taking advantage of the fact that the records were held by Napoleon. Or Popes themselves would infer that heliocentrism might be equivalent (in terms of pure hypothetical mathematical models, yes; in actual reality, no.) This would later erode all the way down to Pius XII who himself was very delighted by the Big Bang Theory to the point where even its own modernist Catholic creator, Fr. Lematire cautioned him. So the Popes were steadily growing more under the influence of the ideas of both Copernicus and Charles Darwin as the decades went on.
But they had a problem. The arguments of the Inquisition and the 16th-17th Century Papacies were too strong and well argued. This created a problem for our modern day Churchmen, and therefore attempts were made to exonerate Galileo and apologize for the Church’s handling, and also to redefine what the Church taught and open up to the world… hey! That’s precisely what the Vatican II movement was all about! According to Cardinal Ratzinger, it was the Galileo Affair that served as the impetus to get the Church more in line with the world!
Perhaps Scripture isn’t all inerrant… maybe only… get this… inerrant in those parts necessary for our Salvation! Which thankfully Geocentrism (and a whole lot more) wasn’t a part of! Exactly as you, Tom A, rightly state, but it will miss the great significance of divorcing all this much the same as separating discipline from Dogma. As St. Robert Bellarmine noted about the heliocentric error, that it would be just as erroneous to state that Jesse had fewer or more sons than actually recorded, regardless of its import to any individual Catholic’s knowledge to be saved, because inherent in the claim is that Scripture is in error, and logically then, so could the entirety of the Catholic Church’s existence which depends on its historicity reliability. And if those things are wrong, then why not the salvific matters too?
Some wanted Vatican II to address this. But it seems the Holy Spirit didn’t let that happen.
John Paul II tried the next best thing. Get another one of those expert commissions to look into it. Then the Church could make another grovelling apology, hold Galileo up as an exonerated saint and move on! But wouldn’t you know it, whatever the Commission returned with, seemed to be in the negative… hmmm… So instead John Paul II did the next best thing, having one Cardinal (I think, Popuard) write his speech to the Academy of Sciences, where John Paul II said vaguely that mistakes were made on both sides, that maybe the Church could’ve handled the Galileo case better, and hey, what do you know… according to Einstein and Relativity, not even all the Scientists gathered here in front of him could tell what was really moving around what, so… there ya go, let’s all get along.
Cardinal Ratzinger would admit much the same that instead of defending what the Church taught and strongly fought against, that the modern consensus holds that both Geocentrism and Heliocentrism were equivalent models of reality, so the whole point is moot. Let’s all just ecumenistically get along, eh?
Funny how this side of the story is never taught to children in our schools, nor in any of our documentaries, until ‘The Principle’ surfaced recently anyway, which the very same secularists interviewed within tried to bury. So I recommend checking out the work of Dr. Robert Sungenis. Another more thorough documentary is also releasing soon dealing specifically with the Church and theological matters, that I recommend seeking out when it releases.
https://gwwdvd.com/2016/07/28/the-church-versus-galileo-official-trailer/
https://gwwdvd.com/2017/05/14/gvc-sneak-peek/
Anyway, here’s the point. According to what I’ve heard from the Sede proposition is that the Papacy is immune to ever having this sort of thing occurring. But the whole Galileo affair demonstrates otherwise. Because the consequences of it have been DEVASTATING for the reputation of the Church. So either St. Peter and 1700 years of his successors got it wrong and created a huge quagmire for the Protestants and the Rationalist Enlightenment to take advantage of. Or it is the steady creeping of Modernism into the Church post-Enlightenment that has been screwing up, and has even touched the Pontiffs. And has been severely hampering them for quite awhile, long before the VII crew showed up, and in fact has led to the mindset that convened Vatican II, along with the censoring of the 3rd Secret, the refusal to Consecrate Russia, and isn’t it remarkable how the spectacular Miracle of Fatima involves the Sun dancing in the sky in impossible ways and then hurling itself at a fixed Earth?!
So while the Sede conclusion that the recent batch of Popes might be heretics and anti-Popes could be correct in theory; the rationale behind it makes no sense in light of the Galileo affair, amongst other things, because we demonstrably have Popes post-Enlightenment that held either privately or publicly supported or even expressed this error, yes, in non-magisterial letters, though sedes argue that Popes should be immune from even these and thus to be obeyed all the time, every time. Thus according to Sede logic, these Popes have not been protected by the Holy Spirit and thus were heretics and the Papacy ended over 200 years ago and the Catholic Church is therefore false. That is the only conclusion.
Hence, why I and many others, prefer to cede such a judgment and decision to the Church and an inevitable Council, and why it is necessary that the errant Popes be confronted by the authority of an imperfect Council to judge their motives and uncover whether or not they are heretics on record. And thus why heretics are not automatically tossed out of the Church, especially if they are not pertinacious or aware that they are in error. Unless a Pope’s apostasy become obvious enough that he has actually physically left the Catholic Church cursing Christ and dressing like the Bodhisatva. And why dogmatic councils about the nature of the Papacy and the Pope’s authority are naturally presuming a faithful Pope as the model when they teach that he cannot be resisted and must be obeyed, and are not intended to deal with the subject possibility of a heretical one. And why Theologians continued to debate about it openly, because it wasn’t clarified. Which John Salza and others have made clear.
So the good news is, that once this crisis is done and part of history, that the Church will have to call either a Vatican III or a Fatima I Council and directly deal with this issue once and for all. And the true Pope is going to need a miracle to back him up as the genuine one, which should be the inevitable proper Consecration of Russia.
So in short, Geocentrism is not a doctrine necessary for salvation, but it is a defined heresy on record. Rank and File uneducated Catholics who may ignorantly hold to heretical or erroneous ideas about the faith are also not going to be condemned by God at their judgement because they were not theology students. But none the less, these are not negligible things, and erroneous ideas leave them open and vulnerable to the infiltration of more error and rebellion. So the fact is that the Church has made a ruling about the Galileo affair. This CANONICAL ruling has NEVER been overturned by any future re-trial or Papacy. Not even the suspect VII Popes. But the Papacy has for a long time either buried it or encouraged against it, or refused to defend and teach it, much like contraceptives and the necessity of children has been left to rot because the world doesn’t like that doctrine too much. In the matter of Galileo, very likely due to invincible ignorance. But the Papacy has allowed this error to infiltrate, to the point that the Vatican II Council is a result.
Therefore the rationale for the Sede idea that True Popes are immune from error and must always be obeyed is falsified, historically. Unless one believes then logically that the Catholic Church is false. That’s the implication. I reject this. And I don’t see the Councils teaching this, but rather that they describe a faithful Pope and do not tackle a heretical one. And that the decision of who is or isn’t a Pope any more must be made on record by the authority of the Church itself. A future True Pope, or a Council of the Church proving that the Pope has taught heresy and is an apostate for refusing to renounce it after it has been made known to him. Or Bergolio tweets us that he’s officially leaving the Church and going to marry Mark Zuckerberg and now worships the devil and attaches a picture and you can find him at the UN World Religion HQ from now on.
And yes, if the current crop of bishops are obviously too cowardly, homosexual or blackmailable enough to not do their job, then I expect that they shall be killed and subsequently replaced by surviving bishops who finally realize it’s do or die time. I’m growing impatient too. But it’s not up to me, but up to God. And if I’m being honest, I’m not looking forward to God’s just chastisement hitting anytime soon, because I too have a sinful life to work on before I’m ready to stand before Him, and there’re no guarantee that I won’t die with the rest of the unfaithful, lukewarm hierarchy, because last time I checked Sodom and Gomorrah’s borders now encompass the entire globe.
The ‘Peace and Conversion’ part is quoted from the Fatima Crusader.
Johnno, I have researched the Geo/Helio debate and understand its implications for theology. I see how the helio position is based on conjecture and can never be proven. I also know that even as of this date, there is no definitive proof that the earth is even in motion. It is all theory. So based on the incarnation, the Church held an opinion that the earth must be the center of the know universe. I can see that reasoning. But was this ever a part of the revealed deposit of faith? Did Christ teach it explicitly or implocitly? I have not read or heard any authoritative declarations by competent Church authorities saying Geocentrism is an article of faith necessary for salvation. It is only in those areas that Popes cannot err. Papal infaillability is not protected outside of dogmas necessary for salvation. Yes the church was very embarassed by the whole Galileo affair but I don’t think it ever adopted an heretical position when it failed to defend geocentrism.
Smokescreen Alert!! I would say the so-called “final battle” against marriage and family started and has already been lost over 40 years ago with Humane Vitae’s making the procreative and unitive as equally important. Not to even mention the acceptance of Family Planning and JPII’s Theology of The Body. The very high Catholic divorce rate of the last 40 years that’s already destroyed so many marriages and families makes it absurd to be acting like the “final battle” against marriage and family hasn’t already happened and hasn’t already been lost “big time.”