Home Forum All Things Catholic Michael Voris : error in premium programs

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  • #5013

    Rodney Pelletier,Simon Rafe and Michael Voris : error in premium programs Baptize All Nations,Moral Compass and possibly God’s Green Earth

    Rodney Pelletier,Simon Rafe and Michael Voris interpret the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 as saying that salvation is visible to us on earth and these deceased who are visible on earth, are explicit exceptions to all needing to convert into the Catholic Church in the present times.This is irrational and the stuff of fantasy.

    This error is there in all their premium programs including Baptize All Nations,Moral Compass and possibly the new program, God’s Green Earth.

    Michael Voris says outside the Church there is no salvation but he also means that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are exceptions to outside the Church there is no salvation. So if he did not infer that all 28 of them working at Church Militant.Com can see the dead on earth who are exceptions to all needing to be formal members of the Catholic Church, he would be rejecting the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 and the Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257-1260 etc.

    The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 made a factual error and the Catechism of the Catholic Church instead of correcting it, affirmed the error.

    To suggest that there are known exceptions to the defined dogma on exclusive salvation, is heresy.It is a mortal sin. This heresy is now widespread in the Catholic Church. It has been overlooked by the popes, from Pius XII to Francis.-Lionel Andrades

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    #5098

    Johnno
    Participant

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve always understood this to be the following-

    1. Outside the Church there is no Salvation.
    – Meaning, specifically, that the saved all hold one doctrine and one truth and it is that taught by the Catholic Church, and live up to the Church’s expectations.

    2. Baptism of Desire
    – Those who possess true invincible ignorance about the existence of the Church or who through no fault of their own believed lies and distortions of the Church, but who nevertheless if they possessed virtues that made their character such that they hungered and searched for the truth, could by the grace of God, upon death, find the Lord who by His own means, unknown to us, would enlighten their mind, they being pre-disposed to seeking and accepting the truth, would then obviously know the Lord and be granted the light of truth and doctrine and thus be saved.

    3. God is not bound by His Sacraments
    – We are saved when by our human participation conforming ourselves to the Church’s doctrine and making use of the Sacraments that God has given us through His Church, the gift of salvation. Thus if we seek salvation, we, with knowledge of the Sacraments must make use of them and also through those same Sacraments, bring more souls to the Church. Thus we cannot obtain salvation any other way as far as our active human knowledge, will and participation are concerned.
    – But God Himself, is not bound by the Sacraments He has given us, and can of His own means unknown to us, seek out and save souls who towards the end of their life walked in true ignorance of the Church, but whom none-the-less possessed virtues that made them fertile for the Gospel.

    4. We know for a fact that there are Saints who in life never knew Christ, nor His Church, nor His Sacraments.
    – These are of course those patriarchs and pagans who lived before Christ. Of what religion was Abraham? And what of Isaac? And Jacob? Then what of the history of the Jews? Or those who walked with the Lord before even them? No doubt they were still led by God and through the ages were led by gradual steps that prefigured Christ and His Church and Sacraments.
    – They would not enter Heaven until after Christ’s redemptive sacrifice, but would be in the Limbo of the Fathers. In what is called ‘Abraham’s Bossom.’ But already we see precedent of a place set aside for those who’d yet to know of Christ as we fully know Him through the Church.

    5. Technically there are no exceptions.
    – Even the invincibly ignorant must therefore come into the Church to be saved after Death, through means God Himself uses.
    – The invincibly ignorant, must also be possessed of virtues that thirst for God and for truth in order to embrace it, and thus beholding it, enter into the Church Triumphant.
    – The invincibly ignorant can also likewise, being dispossessed of virtues in life, reject God’s final grace and go to Hell of their own choosing.
    – There is a good argument that can be made that technically, it is highly unlikely for the vast majority of mankind who may not be children abandoned in a desert absent from society, to have never heard of the Church, nor who have gained curiosity for it. And if they never gained curiosity to investigate the Church, then they were not possessed of a virtue that wishes to seek truth and know God of their own choosing. So the exceptions might not exist in 99.9% of humanity, but for that 0.1% who are in this hypothetical situation, are left to God’s mercy to save is He and they so desire it, but even then that means that person must through means only known to God, enter into the Church Triumphant, through a baptism that only God can provide that the Church on Earth cannot.

    6. Similar questions pertain to the unbaptized Children in limbo.
    – How do they inevitably ever go to Heaven?
    – The Church again doesn’t have an answer except that to know that this is a mystery known only to God.
    – The nature and character of God must be such that there is a solution. And that solution is dependent on Him.
    – Likewise the same logic follows for those hypothetical souls who are possessed of an ignorance and helplessness beyond their human means to be received into the Church.
    – Likewise it is not unthinkable that even the invincibly ignorant, if saved by God, may be brought to Him, having accepted Him by Baptism of Desire, also through the fires of Purgatory.

    7. We are never to ever assume that anyone possesses invincible ignorance
    – Just as the number of those who are saved is a minority amongst the Baptized, the number of those who are saved amongst the ignorant is also very minuscule.
    – Even those in ignorance or in other religions, likewise, through their own will sin and defy God and celebrate themselves against the commands of their own false religions, no different than fallen Christians.

    #5100

    Johnoo:
    . Outside the Church there is no Salvation.
    – Meaning, specifically, that the saved all hold one doctrine and one truth and it is that taught by the Catholic Church, and live up to the Church’s expectations.

    Lionel:
    Yes.It was a dogma defined three times by the Catholic Church

    2. Baptism of Desire
    – Those who possess true invincible ignorance about the existence of the Church or who through no fault of their own believed lies and distortions of the Church, but who nevertheless if they possessed virtues that made their character such that they hungered and searched for the truth, could by the grace of God, upon death, find the Lord who by His own means, unknown to us, would enlighten their mind, they being pre-disposed to seeking and accepting the truth, would then obviously know the Lord and be granted the light of truth and doctrine and thus be saved.

    Lionel:
    Theoretically O.K. It is important to note that this is a theory it is a hypotethical statement.We do not know any defacto case in the present times.

    3. God is not bound by His Sacraments
    – We are saved when by our human participation conforming ourselves to the Church’s doctrine and making use of the Sacraments that God has given us through His Church, the gift of salvation. Thus if we seek salvation, we, with knowledge of the Sacraments must make use of them and also through those same Sacraments, bring more souls to the Church. Thus we cannot obtain salvation any other way as far as our active human knowledge, will and participation are concerned.
    – But God Himself, is not bound by the Sacraments He has given us, and can of His own means unknown to us, seek out and save souls who towards the end of their life walked in true ignorance of the Church, but whom none-the-less possessed virtues that made them fertile for the Gospel.
    Lionel:
    The dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus indicates that God chose to be limited to the Catholic Sacraments. Also Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7) says all need ‘faith and baptism’ for salvation.So it is a de fide teaching that salvation is limited to the Sacraments.
    Secondly we do not personally know any one who is an explicit exception in the present times, to all needing the baptism of water for salvation.
    Except for the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 and then the Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257-1260 there is no magisterial document which implies that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance, are not theoretical and hypothetical, but defacto and known in 2014.
    To infer that the dead now saved are explicit exceptions to the literal interpretation of Fr. Leonard Feeeny is a factual, objective error. How can the dead be visible and be exceptions to the dogma?
    CCC 1257 says God is not limited to the Sacraments.Cardinal Ratzinger, as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith also made the factual error. He assumed that there were known exceptions outside the Church.

    4. We know for a fact that there are Saints who in life never knew Christ, nor His Church, nor His Sacraments.
    – These are of course those patriarchs and pagans who lived before Christ. Of what religion was Abraham? And what of Isaac? And Jacob? Then what of the history of the Jews? Or those who walked with the Lord before even them? No doubt they were still led by God and through the ages were led by gradual steps that prefigured Christ and His Church and Sacraments.
    – They would not enter Heaven until after Christ’s redemptive sacrifice, but would be in the Limbo of the Fathers. In what is called ‘Abraham’s Bossom.’ But already we see precedent of a place set aside for those who’d yet to know of Christ as we fully know Him through the Church.
    Lionel:
    Yes before Christ Died and had Risen the good had to wait in Abraham’s Bosom.
    Even at that time there was a Hell and people were going to Hell as at present. The dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Ad Gentes 7 indicate that most people are oriented to Hell since they do not have Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.

    5. Technically there are no exceptions.
    – Even the invincibly ignorant must therefore come into the Church to be saved after Death, through means God Himself uses.
    – The invincibly ignorant, must also be possessed of virtues that thirst for God and for truth in order to embrace it, and thus beholding it, enter into the Church Triumphant.
    – The invincibly ignorant can also likewise, being dispossessed of virtues in life, reject God’s final grace and go to Hell of their own choosing.
    – There is a good argument that can be made that technically, it is highly unlikely for the vast majority of mankind who may not be children abandoned in a desert absent from society, to have never heard of the Church, nor who have gained curiosity for it. And if they never gained curiosity to investigate the Church, then they were not possessed of a virtue that wishes to seek truth and know God of their own choosing. So the exceptions might not exist in 99.9% of humanity, but for that 0.1% who are in this hypothetical situation, are left to God’s mercy to save is He and they so desire it, but even then that means that person must through means only known to God, enter into the Church Triumphant, through a baptism that only God can provide that the Church on Earth cannot.

    Lionel:
    Yes.Technically there are no exceptions since there are no known cases.

    6. Similar questions pertain to the unbaptized Children in limbo.
    – How do they inevitably ever go to Heaven?
    – The Church again doesn’t have an answer except that to know that this is a mystery known only to God.
    – The nature and character of God must be such that there is a solution. And that solution is dependent on Him.
    – Likewise the same logic follows for those hypothetical souls who are possessed of an ignorance and helplessness beyond their human means to be received into the Church.
    – Likewise it is not unthinkable that even the invincibly ignorant, if saved by God, may be brought to Him, having accepted Him by Baptism of Desire, also through the fires of Purgatory.

    Lionel:
    All adults need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.
    Regarding Limo, I can only hope that it is more like Heaven and less than Hell.

    Johnoo:
    – Likewise the same logic follows for those hypothetical souls who are possessed of an ignorance and helplessness beyond their human means to be received into the Church.
    Lionel:
    Those who are saved are there with the baptism of water.
    However being saved with invincible ignorance is not relevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Since these cases are known only to God.
    It was the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 which made the error. It assumed that these cases were visible and so explict exceptions.

    Johnoo:
    – Likewise it is not unthinkable that even the invincibly ignorant, if saved by God, may be brought to Him, having accepted Him by Baptism of Desire, also through the fires of Purgatory.

    Lionel:
    The de fide teaching is that all need to enter the Church, all need to be formal members of the Catholic Church for salvation.

    7. We are never to ever assume that anyone possesses invincible ignorance
    – Just as the number of those who are saved is a minority amongst the Baptized, the number of those who are saved amongst the ignorant is also very minuscule.
    – Even those in ignorance or in other religions, likewise, through their own will sin and defy God and celebrate themselves against the commands of their own false religions, no different than fallen Christians.
    Lionel:
    Yes we cannot meet any one saved or going to be saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire. So we cannot meet any one who is an exception to all needing the baptism of water for salvation. We do not know any one who is saved outside the Catholic Church.

    For Church Militant the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are visible to them and so they are explicit exceptions in 2014 to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Ad Gentes 7.

    So while Michael Voris affirms the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus he will deny it with the baptism of desire etc.
    He will assume that Lumen Gentium 16 ( invinicble ignorance) is visible to us in 2014 to be an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus. So for him, as expected, Vatican Council II will be a break with Tradition and the dogma.

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